the reason theres more failure rate in the elite missions weekend.

lg5000

lg5000

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Australia

I have to ask... how effective is the ele's favourite spell... firestorm?

I haven't bothered with the elite missions and with the current hatred for certain professions, I'm not going to bother. Just curious as over 50% of all fire eles I've come across have firestorm on their skill bar

XvArchonvX

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUIU
I'll say it! Mesmers don't belong in anything but PvP.
Take a mesmer that runs Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm, Clumsiness, Energy Tap, and Energy Drain. This build can easily take down enemies faster than most tanks and have the energy regen to do it over and over again. Not only that, but there is no other class that excels as much in taking down large casters/caster bosses. While I don't think I would use a mesmer in a group to an elite mission, there is no doubt in my mind that they are a fair force in PvE (even if PvP is where they can shine the most).


From my experience doing a deep run yesterday, I saw: a lvl 13 necro constantly trying to get in my group and begging in front of me repeatedly, a water ele joining and saying that he was a nuker, a battery necro that ran Life Transfer as elite, and a full ritualist group forming a party. Admittedly I am curious as to how the ritualist group went. I'm skeptical, but I do give it the benefit of the doubt.


What I have seen the most of however on both the forums and in games is a large clash of the casual gamer vs. the experienced gamer. Many casual gamers have started seeing the experienced gamers as "1337" stuck up pricks who won't listen to anyone unless they have done the mission 10 times and use the exact same build they do. The experienced gamer has started seeing anyone who is not entirely experienced with elite missions as "noobs" who have never listened and never will.

The truth is that they are both right and they are both wrong.

There are casual gamers who don't care to learn how to do the mission, but just want to pop in a group with whatever build they feel like and go. There are also mature casual gamers who haven't tried the missions before, but have either read about them to get a general idea of how to prepare, or are at least willing to listen to others who have completed it successfully in order to be able to support the team as well as possible. There is also everything in between.

There are experienced gamers who will start flaming anyone who doesn't run a build or have the same attributes that they see as "ideal" and will tell them to screw off before even trying to ask if that person could try it a different way so that their build could work with the team better. There are people who have done the mission many times that are willing to accept people who have never tried the mission before and are patient enough to help them prepare as well as open minded enough to listen to new suggestions or allow substitutions in non-critical skills. There is also everything in between.

I personally would like to see more people relax and stop prejudging others based on how experienced they are, start helping eachother, relax and enjoy the missions.

YunSooJin

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by lg5000
I have to ask... how effective is the ele's favourite spell... firestorm?

I haven't bothered with the elite missions and with the current hatred for certain professions, I'm not going to bother. Just curious as over 50% of all fire eles I've come across have firestorm on their skill bar
Worthless. Firestorm completely negates any type of crowd control, which is important in the Elite Missions. You don't want the monsters that were safely bashing the warriors to run away from the firestorm and then re-target a caster.

lg5000

lg5000

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Australia

YunSooJin, I see I forgot half of my question... how many firestorms have you guys see go off during the elite missions by some random ele who thought the skill was leet?

sorry, late night and my mind doesn't work anymore.

YunSooJin

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by lg5000
YunSooJin, I see I forgot half of my question... how many firestorms have you guys see go off during the elite missions by some random ele who thought the skill was leet?

sorry, late night and my mind doesn't work anymore.
When I go to the Deep, I am usually with 1 to 3 friends. We then carefully vet anyone we accept.

Or we just roll with Korean players in ID1, who complete the Deep in 50 minutes flat.

Yogi's Pain

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by YunSooJin
When I go to the Deep, I am usually with 1 to 3 friends. We then carefully vet anyone we accept.

Or we just roll with Korean players in ID1, who complete the Deep in 50 minutes flat.
That should be the main topic of this thread. Who cares what classes you bring, I'm sure any team that is patient and works well together will eventually beat both missions no mater what the group build is. However why would you want to spend twice the time taking characters that aren't as effective.

We used to do Urgoz in 2 hours. Not sure if this is a good time or not since I only went with one guild. If you can do the Deep in under an hour, maybe I should start heading that way.

YunSooJin

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

Well Yogi, here's a disclaimer:

I can read korean, and I am korean american. This enables me to be considered to be brought along with all-korean teams.

What's interesting about korean teams is that everyone is competent, unfailingly polite, and understand basic mechanisms concerning aggro, holding aggro, and all know the deep fairly well.

In comparison, english speaking teams are rude, drop out often and seem to think they are God's Gift to PvE (I am TOTALLY making generalizations here, and loving it, because this is completely true in comparison to playing with Koreans).

Most english speaking teams = deep in ~1.45-2.5 hours.

Most korean teams = deep in 50 min-1.4 hours. And that's with NO ventrilo, barely any communication. Just competence. And not needless arguing about how mesmers should be considered equals in the mission.

FireKingX

FireKingX

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by YunSooJin
Well Yogi, here's a disclaimer:

I can read korean, and I am korean american. This enables me to be considered to be brought along with all-korean teams.

What's interesting about korean teams is that everyone is competent, unfailingly polite, and understand basic mechanisms concerning aggro, holding aggro, and all know the deep fairly well.

In comparison, english speaking teams are rude, drop out often and seem to think they are God's Gift to PvE (I am TOTALLY making generalizations here, and loving it, because this is completely true in comparison to playing with Koreans).

Most english speaking teams = deep in ~1.45-2.5 hours.

Most korean teams = deep in 50 min-1.4 hours. And that's with NO ventrilo, barely any communication. Just competence. And not needless arguing about how mesmers should be considered equals in the mission.
Although I do not know Korean, I have to agree with you.

I have played with some of them and I have to say they're much more organized and there doesn't seem to be any rude people.

Electric Sky

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Mesmers do know how to kick ass - the problem is whether or not that player knows how to use the mesmer class correctly, so i guess you suck at that class ?

ElinoraNeSangre

ElinoraNeSangre

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Near Seattle, WA

Talionis De Cineris [EXUR]

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireKingX
Although I do not know Korean, I have to agree with you.

I have played with some of them and I have to say they're much more organized and there doesn't seem to be any rude people.
Maybe Koreans value staying calm, not freaking out, not being a jerk, and having fun a bit more than some of their English-speaking counterparts...

I doubt it's really helping how some people play when they've got people saying, "omg you suck noob!!!" rather than trying to help people play better in a constructive way. Like the post about bad skillbar = kicked; it makes more sense to me to say, "Can we offer you some suggestions based on what we know of this mission?"

If they get pissed and say no, then fine, kick them because they obviously can't take feedback and that's never good (in a video game *or* in the real world, such as in holding a job...). But as many people have pointed out, inexperience doesn't mean incompetence; some people just need the right constructive feedback about what they can do *right* not just what they're doing *wrong*.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by YunSooJin
I will make one final concession: mesmers have their uses in Urgoz, simply as a SINGLE TARGET anti caster tool against the huge trees.
I accept your concession, but mesmers in urgoz also serve well to mass interrupt groups with echo/glyphed CoF, and shatter hex is the hand of God there.

In deep... there are plenty of uses, as support damage degen or dom, which I have found more effective than many of 'damage dealers'. Granted, their use is less so than in Urgoz.

ChaoticCoyote

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
I personally would like to see more people relax and stop prejudging others based on how experienced they are, start helping eachother, relax and enjoy the missions.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Saphatorael

Saphatorael

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireKingX
Although I do not know Korean, I have to agree with you.

I have played with some of them and I have to say they're much more organized and there doesn't seem to be any rude people.
Don't forget the chinese people... when i wanted to do cap soul leech on my Me/N at Abaddon's Mouth, i visited international districts, only to find a 7-player chinese team... i was allowed in it!

Not only did they actually clear the entire back area looking for the boss (which actually never spawned), so i proposed doing the bonus now that we did all the work anyways, and they never commented me (even though they were using their awkward signs, there was only 1 guy that i actually could communicate with...)

Chinese players have earned my respect, I hope i'll meet more of them, since they're alot more skilled than my European 'partners' in PvE...


Oh, and i'm also very worried about the amount of players still thinking that only warriors, ele's and monks are required to complete the mission.... and i'm annoyed by the non-level 20's to even give the mission a shot... i COULD do the mission with my level 20 necro, but i won't... since i already know i won't be able to play my best with it... I'd rather have a fully prepared character (so only my Tyrian warrior, monk and mesmer) will actually be visiting that mission area, i'll only give it a shot with my necro when i think i'm up for it... i still have alot to learn about necro skills.

CHUIU

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Team Legacy

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sli Ander
I respect your opinion, but there is a difference between being least effective and not belonging in pve. And it all depends on what you're looking for when you're looking for that "something better". So it doesn't do great AoE damage, but it is a fun and challenging class, eitherwise no one would play it.
I agree its a fun and challanging class, mesmer is my favorite class to play (tied with necro). But PvE is boring and easy and mesmers mostly work on 1 target at a time whereas a nuker can take down 5-6 targets in just a 2 or 3 seconds more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Take a mesmer that runs Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm, Clumsiness, Energy Tap, and Energy Drain. This build can easily take down enemies faster than most tanks and have the energy regen to do it over and over again. Not only that, but there is no other class that excels as much in taking down large casters/caster bosses. While I don't think I would use a mesmer in a group to an elite mission, there is no doubt in my mind that they are a fair force in PvE (even if PvP is where they can shine the most).
I can think of a better build than that. But I can also see how an ele with arcane echo, meteor shower, rodgorts invocation, fire attunement, and ele attunement can kill much faster than that and hits more than one enemy at the same time.

Though for the record, I do still prefer mesmers on certain PvE missions when people ask for my help. I run either an illusion or domination build depending on what we're doing. Some examples of missions I bring my mesmer on are Abaddon's Mouth and Boreas Seabed. Because in these situations I can shut down the enemy bosses faster than any group can kill it making the mesmer useful for that purpose. But those are like the only situations in which I think a mesmer would be useful over something else. You still can do both those missions just fine without a mesmer or even an interrupter.

FireKingX

FireKingX

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElinoraNeSangre
Maybe Koreans value staying calm, not freaking out, not being a jerk, and having fun a bit more than some of their English-speaking counterparts...

I doubt it's really helping how some people play when they've got people saying, "omg you suck noob!!!" rather than trying to help people play better in a constructive way. Like the post about bad skillbar = kicked; it makes more sense to me to say, "Can we offer you some suggestions based on what we know of this mission?"

If they get pissed and say no, then fine, kick them because they obviously can't take feedback and that's never good (in a video game *or* in the real world, such as in holding a job...). But as many people have pointed out, inexperience doesn't mean incompetence; some people just need the right constructive feedback about what they can do *right* not just what they're doing *wrong*.
If it keeps going like that, it will end up just like HA...

Former Ruling

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cedartown, Georgia

R/

Its simply because theres an influx of people that don't know HOW to do it right now that have direct and easy access to trying to do it.

If they haven't learned the builds and such needed then of course they are going to suck...Gotta give them time to learn - gotta let them get kicked from groups a couple of times

There are some though I agree that just don't learn...Like my rants about pve tombs.

Electric Sky

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

people are only attracted to elite missions because they think that every drops in that area are really rare - and that is all they want - not to do the mission efficiently but just the drops itself.

GloryFox

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

Quote:
But PvE is boring and easy
Really... I find PvP the same as you find PvE. To each his own I guess. However I have personaly seen more PvP people die in urgoz then veteran PvE'r's. The style of play is different, that is why PvEr's usualy die in PvP matches more.

All of this Flame really needs to stop. I have beaten the Deep with an Assassin (Chain Knockdown build) and a Mesmer. I have beaten the warrens as an Assassin (Palm Strike, Twisted fangs, Shadow Mastery build). Some builds are a bit better than others IMO some don't. Really most of you people here are very destructive in your rants and raves here. You should listen to yourselves at times. Instead of saying blanket statements like Assassins have no place Mesmer have no place. How about "If I did take an assassin I would build in this way or my Mesmer this way." Try changing the attitudes of people through real discussion instead of 3rd grade rants that make you all look ignorant.

Numa Pompilius

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

...and the REAL reason there's a higher failure rate right now than there normally is:

Not everyone playing right now are farmers who'vefarmed this mission fifty times before.

Cracko

Cracko

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

I SEE TOO MUCH W/MO's WHO DONT KNOW WHAT TANK MEANS AND USE MENDING!

[/rage]

tomcruisejr

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

i always use healing signet and frenzy with 16 axe mastery whenever i go farm pve. can i go to the deep and urgoz and survive?

cldhearted00

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

N/

most likely not
the warriors ive seen use dolyak signet and stuff to stay alive

eternal pho

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

The Licious Fame Farmers {TLG}

W/E

Ok, before anyone even does an elite mission, they should search up some guides or threads on them and learn what and what not to do(skills that should and should not be brought).

Zinger314

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
i always use healing signet and frenzy with 16 axe mastery whenever i go farm pve. can i go to the deep and urgoz and survive?
Sarcasm is lost on the internet.

Linkusmax

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

You only need 3 skills to tank

Defensive Stance, Watch Yourself and Heal Signet. In fact you only need ten in tactics. Deaths In The Deep last run: 2

Omega X

Omega X

Ninja Unveiler

Join Date: Jun 2005

Louisiana, USA

Boston Guild[BG]

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
...and the REAL reason there's a higher failure rate right now than there normally is:

Not everyone playing right now are farmers who'vefarmed this mission fifty times before.
DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

We Have a WINNER!


For the first time ever, people are now able to go into the elite areas WITHOUT hoping for a ferry or not farming faction to get there.

THAT is why there is such a high failure rate.

However, if you do it with your guild then PuGs are a non issue.

lemming

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
i always use healing signet and frenzy with 16 axe mastery whenever i go farm pve. can i go to the deep and urgoz and survive?
Only if you bring a pet and IWAY.

nohooiam

nohooiam

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Forsaken Sanctuary

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by YunSooJin
Or we just roll with Korean players in ID1, who complete the Deep in 50 minutes flat.
opening this info to the public ruined international discts in HA.

lets not do it for elite missions.

Vapor_Fighter

Vapor_Fighter

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

DRKN

W/

Normally there is 1 district with about 10 people in american districts, and about 4 in international.
The problem is that a whole bunch of new people see the "Double gold Drops" thing they jump at the opportunity..screwing everybody else over.
so if you want an intelligent group your best bet is international districts

LoKi Foxfire

LoKi Foxfire

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Florida

One Corgi Army {OCA}

R/Rt

I love what the Deep has degenerated into. :]

CHUIU

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Team Legacy

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryFox
Really... I find PvP the same as you find PvE. To each his own I guess. However I have personaly seen more PvP people die in urgoz then veteran PvE'r's. The style of play is different, that is why PvEr's usualy die in PvP matches more.
So PvE is what ... challanging? Difficult? Not a chance. If you find PvP easy then you're playing in the wrong area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryFox
All of this Flame really needs to stop. I have beaten the Deep with an Assassin (Chain Knockdown build) and a Mesmer. I have beaten the warrens as an Assassin (Palm Strike, Twisted fangs, Shadow Mastery build). Some builds are a bit better than others IMO some don't. Really most of you people here are very destructive in your rants and raves here. You should listen to yourselves at times. Instead of saying blanket statements like Assassins have no place Mesmer have no place. How about "If I did take an assassin I would build in this way or my Mesmer this way." Try changing the attitudes of people through real discussion instead of 3rd grade rants that make you all look ignorant.
I think I would much rather bring an Ele that can deal 100+ damage per second to large groups of enemies than a mesmer who can ... deep wound everyone? Use a lot of degen? Knockdown? Don't need deep wound because 1 rodgorts already deals more damage. Don't need degen because a fireball does faster damage at critical points. Don't need knockdowns because we have 3 warriors and several meteor showers causing them. I would much rather have an ele.

Same goes with an assassin. I'm sure you looooooove attacking 1 person at a time. Well I looooooove watching flaming rocks land on enemies heads dealing more damage at once because its spread around.

I'm not ignorant, I'm practical. I don't want the run to take 30 more minutes because someone thinks their sin or mesmer is leet shit. It may very well be leet shit but it sucks in PvE. Get over it already.

Vahn Roi

Vahn Roi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2006

[HiDE]

Miscommunication and disorganization are the main reasons I struggle with PUGs in Urgoz's and the Deep.

Also, PvP and PvE are two totally different games, trying to compare them to one another is pointless.

Numa Pompilius

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUIU
I think I would much rather bring an Ele that can deal 100+ damage per second to large groups of enemies
Just out of curiosity... which spell might that be? You know that elemental damage isn't armor ignoring, right?

Snowman

Snowman

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wales, UK

Devils Scorpions

W/E

I can understand the failier rate being higher because there are more noobs going in..

But putting it down to the mesmer and assasin classes is just plain wrong... I have both, and have been and done the elite missions many times with them. Remember Assasins and mesmer CAN have a secondary class, and they BOTH inherintly have AoE skills..

Again, its not the class's, its the newbs.. plain and simple.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUIU
I think I would much rather bring an Ele that can deal 100+ damage per second to large groups of enemies than a mesmer who can ... deep wound everyone? Use a lot of degen? Knockdown? Don't need deep wound because 1 rodgorts already deals more damage. Don't need degen because a fireball does faster damage at critical points. Don't need knockdowns because we have 3 warriors and several meteor showers causing them. I would much rather have an ele.
I like how you picked Phantom Pain, Conjure Phantasm and Psychic Instability as your representation of the entire mesmer class.

Hey, you know those blood drinkers that spam hexes? You know Shatter hex glyphed/echoed does more damage than an ele can?

Raxxman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

TEOC

W/N

shush, don't burst his bubble ;P

Every class can be used in those missions, just cause you haven't found a use for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

YunSooJin

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
I like how you picked Phantom Pain, Conjure Phantasm and Psychic Instability as your representation of the entire mesmer class.

Hey, you know those blood drinkers that spam hexes? You know Shatter hex glyphed/echoed does more damage than an ele can?
You're joking, right?

You're trying to set up unreliable situational instances to prove that mesmers are actually useful?

Sometimes I think if I took evidence I crammed it down your throats you guys would pretend that it was your mother handfeeding you instead of an irritated forum poster intent on throttling you.


EDIT: Nevermind that THE ONLY GOOD a mesmer (a stupid mesmer) with echo'd shatter hex would be useful in was with Blood Drinkers only, and WORTHLESS AT EVERY OTHER INSTANCE.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by YunSooJin
You're joking, right?

You're trying to set up unreliable situational instances to prove that mesmers are actually useful?

Sometimes I think if I took evidence I crammed it down your throats you guys would pretend that it was your mother handfeeding you instead of an irritated forum poster intent on throttling you.


EDIT: Nevermind that THE ONLY GOOD a mesmer (a stupid mesmer) with echo'd shatter hex would be useful in was with Blood Drinkers only, and WORTHLESS AT EVERY OTHER INSTANCE.
Because mesmers only have two skills on their bar.

It's obvious you haven't played a mesmer there, or at least not played one effectively. In any case, taking the assumption that a mesmer only does bring two skills on their bar, you'd still be effective against Dredge, Drinkers, Thorn Wolves, and Wardens. Never mind those other 6 skills.

penguo

penguo

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Abaddons Bane

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
I like how you picked Phantom Pain, Conjure Phantasm and Psychic Instability as your representation of the entire mesmer class.

Hey, you know those blood drinkers that spam hexes? You know Shatter hex glyphed/echoed does more damage than an ele can?
I would agree with Avarre...And I've decided to begin a mesmer.IMO mesmers dont deserve the hate they get, and are often quite useful.

WhiteZombie

WhiteZombie

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehlemming
Only if you bring a pet and IWAY.
or a +5 energy weapon, healing focus, Mending, and Healing Breeze. oh, and throw some Banish action in there for good measure. skills that ignore armor = leet.