Elitism or Skill vs. Time

lemme just add this post as well, if your joining someone's group, you must fill their desired roles, if you want in.

if you want to run some wacked build, make your own group, be a tough guy and have people work around you for a well made group.

i can only see that you (OP) couldn't understand why you yourself got kicked from a group cause of some skill you said you had and they told you they didn't want it. you come off that way, so its fair to say this is the whole reason for this pointless thread people wasted so much time typing for. including me.

take this quote to heart:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" - Abe Lincoln

Since when did doing what you're supposed to become fun? Seriously though, sometimes healing is fun, but it irks me that its 'required'. But I love being a monk, so I deal.

This is my build:
Healing breeze
rebirth
bane signet
banish
Shield of judgement
charm animal
comfort animal
Balthazar's Aura.
Go read the Smiting monks posts in the Monk forum. I've got the full explanation for it there. I use this to do henching and soloing. I've henched most of the missions, and 90% of the map with this.My cat outlasts henchmen and sometimes characters, while allowing me to do comparative damage.COMPARATIVE. Not the best, not the same as a warrior, but pretty good for a monk.
Yes, monks(except maybe 55's)can't tank. But humans will be humans. We come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Whats wrong with wanting to have a little variety? I heal when people politely ask, or if I know them well. But if you want me to play the role of a henchman, well, Mhenlo's standing right over there...I'll go take my inefficient build and beat you to the other side.

I actually haven't been kicked from a group, but I have had to conform to other peoples builds AFTER EXPLICITLY STATING I WAS A SMITING MONK AND BEING ACCEPTED. They wanted healing, and I was tired of waiting around for some open minded people. Elitism is a popular problem, as you can see in threads from Nolani's Academy of the Arts, to Why I don't PvP. Tell me that it doesn't play a factor in this game. I am attempting to be objective in this thread. And I even asked for suggestions for a solution. You would rather post in a thread that you consider pointless, to tell me that I need to conform to the status quo. I'm trying to stand on the fence, because as a monk, I do enjoy the occasional healing. But because monks are universally accepted, its easier for me to see how other people are overlooked or insulted because they are not 'useful'.
Try these two things before you post:
1. Look at it from a new angle, maybe look at someone elses post and attempt to see it as reasonable.
2. Read your quote, and take your own advice from good ol' Mr. Lincoln.

Actually your post is right on target. I myself would kick someone for rudeness and such behavior, because thats simply not respectful. And thats all I'm really trying to get across. Elitism(read jerks, close minded people) isn't something that people should have to deal with. In the high end missions and PvP, there is simply too much of it, and it disrupts the playing experience of others. To put it in simpler terms, we're talking about discrimination. People who see a player as a cog in a wheel, and kick you (unreasonably, after all team work is important) because they think you're noobish, etc. I'm simply attempting to open a forum for suggestions about how to get around the problem, whatever shape it may take. Usually its simply a bunch of players who simply think too much of themselves, and so must insult all those 'below' them.
Sorry about the length of these posts, I'm trying to be understood correctly the first time.

i dont have time to get into this, all im going to say is, pvp is pvp, theres room for experiments with people who will attempt them, and then theres random arenas and the rest of the narrow pvp where anything can go.

pve you know what monsters run, its set in stone, so, your counters - your builds SHOULD be too. what works, works, what doesn't, don't belong. (there are alot of counters for alot of things even so, you know.)

running that build is perfectly fine with henchmen, you know what they do, who to take, to make your group useable -and their smarter than the average human anyway. asking a human to figure out how he can fit your mixed objectives is pointless. when you deal with people you dont know, it has to be simple, you all have to understand a certain ground level of the game, a monk should heal (who else can as good as a monk? no one) tank should tank.. (who really can tank better than a warrior? without the wasting of skill slots? no one)

do you understand what im saying?

While I do understand you, I also disagree with you. If you didn't allow individual builds, but say(I know this is extreme) gave only premade monks, warriors, etc. at the beginning of the game, it would be no fun. GW is a changing game, an evolving RPG. Even if it wasn't, the players would change. I don't have to explain my build to a teammate. I just say I'm a smiter, and I'll explain if he's curious as to how. There are only two roles to fill in a team: damage dealer and support. If I'm smiting, I just switched roles, and its easy to understand. Also, since my build isn't set in stone, I can easily switch out half a dozen spells I know will work equally as well( for instance, I'll toss in heal party or something). You take away unique roles and you take away versatility, and the ability to learn it. And while I agree healers heal best, and tankers tank best, this is a game. Sometimes its about whats most fun. Even if its not efficient.Which is what this thread is all about. People who lord it over someone else, because of apparent experience, etc. can make it harder to have a pleasant experience. All I want is some ideas how to make it easier again.

ugh, let me sleep...

yes, alot of people can't read for beans. even after they read a line of text, which btw stays in history logs.... they ask questions answered in that line afterwards. i know. i deal with people even when im selling an item for a set price at a certain location... they ask where i am and how much it is.... its amazing.. to say the least.

look no hard feelings here, but you only add to the "no healer? *kick* mentality cause thats what people naturally expect from a monk. .... because monks do it best... you see.... the BEST for the job is desired, why settle for less?


i gladly read the quote redirected to me, because the web of ideas people try to create with the statements of others is a waste of time. we r indeed humans, we r not perfect, nor can anyone be so right about every little piece of their words. the ideas are what are important, and until you have a way to connect brains for communication, there is no perfect way to communicate.

everything I've said till now in short: whatever, it doesn't effect me

edit: hang on, for above post, the last line; the only ideas are new chapters, new classes have no previous experimentations with - thats when theres room for versatility.
And really, thats all you can get from now on.

The game was made for you to be able to play alone for a reason, for you to do what you like to. experiment. or be anti social.... either way, i'm afraid its that and groups who really dont care, and invite any class, for no reason (showing no alligence to a cookie cutter or proved team build) are your answers.

I find that people like to toss around the elitist insult just as much as the word noob is used. I think it's really bizarre actually. So, does that deem you as being one on the other side of the fence from the mention of somebody being elitist? Meaning you're not elitist, because the term is used so frequently by yourself or others to point in the direction of whatever you dislike in others? I really don't get it, please explain.

Or is it like an automatic response in defense to somebody calling you a noob? Because I've also found, after some missions or battles when somebody gets called a noob, or leeches get bad-mouthed in Aspenwood, they get jumped on and called elitists.

Like somebody said previously, it's kind of like human nature in a way. People have to come up with stereotyping systems in their head, and deem others under a certain category, in order to cope with something maybe. In online gaming cases, maybe their own insecurities or frustrations? I don't really understand the purposes of these names really, do they have some special purpose in being able to play guild wars with others and function normally? Is there a cure? lol.

imo people sometimes suck at playing, sometimes they don't, big deal.

I mainly started this thread because of the whole pve/pvp fight. People are always saying one side is worse than the other because of cookie cutter builds/ jerks/etc. They are both just as bad in my opinion. Perhaps I've misused the term, because I barely use it myself. The point of this thread is to generate some ideas as to why it is this way or how we can change it. 'It' being things like smiter monks(not55's) and mesmers being overlooked in pve, to rankless people having to go through hell and high water to play pvp in certain areas. My first post kinda rambled, so I hope this clarifies.
As for me, (as i posted in replies in this thread) I know there are times to kick people, there are times to help people by changing builds or suggesting builds. But to be rude, disrespectful, or to demand in that manner such a change is what falls under 'elitism' for me. If I'm going to be kicked, I'd prefer it be done politely, and with a reasonable explanation. From what I've read on this forum, sometimes its just a bunch of people being complete jerks. So what can we do to circumvent these jerks without sacrificing the way the game is played?

Oh I see, thanks for clarifying. I don't really know what can be done about that situation. People seem to be convinced that one combination, and one only in most cases, is the only thing that ever works. They don't seem to want to think about it any other way, otherwise they might get a headache.

Kind of like the guy that wants only 3 warriors, 2 monks, and 3 nukers in their group. Because of the key phrase "because it works" that clicks in their heads. Oh ya, maybe the occasional MM of course, can't forget them. They obviously "work" too I guess. So, I guess the whole idea is find what works and forget about it, anything else, and it's too much for them to handle. That's why a lot of the professions or builds in this game are deemed useless, or *cough* inefficient. I don't think there is a solution, because these kind of people are more stubborn than a bag of bricks. You don't work (in their opinion), you get kicked. Plain and simple. My only hope is that some of these people start experimenting more, and with other professions, then maybe they'll find out that what they think works, isn't the only thing that does.

I havent read the whole of it, but I wouldnt blame the game for people's attitudes, even tho its a game whose developer I think sucks very bad lately. but nvm

theres a lot of people who will not / would not try new things, its simply a fact of humanity.This can be see in pve as well as in pvp.. the second fact is, a lot of people are arrogant bitches, both in pve as in pvp.

why do you think anet added friendlist and guilds . but yes, if you have a specific build in mind, try organizing your own party..

One way i think to help stop this 'elitist' stuff, especially with builds in PVE is to have random spawns of enemies at different locations within the areas. Also to have different enemy 'builds' spawning as well.

This would then make teams/PUG's think a bit more about 'mixing' their teams with the not so popular professions, because they will not know exactly what professions/skills the enemy will be using or where the enemies location will exactly be.

This could also go some way in stopping the 'bot' farming.

Here's my personal experiences in PvE (most recently with a Ranger, Assassin, and Warrior)

As I'm looking for a group to do a certain quest or mission, I'll get into one and find out one of the party members has a *questionable* build. But that doesn't matter. As long as a party has the following, from any combination of characters, things will work out:

Tanking
Efficient Healing/Protection
Damage
Some degree of coordination

I use the term "efficient" in that a W/Mo with 2 Energy Regen and 27 Energy (assume glad's set) isn't a very good dedicated healer. He can heal himself but that's about it. By "Efficient Healing" I mean a dedicated healer, like a healing monk or restoration ritualist. Ritualists also play a role in protecting the party (think Shelter, Union, Shadowsong, etc.) so they can both heal and protect a team.

Now, tanking isn't necessarily "needed" if you have efficient healing and protection, but it makes things one HECK of a lot easier. If you can get all the enemies on one AL 96 target (assume glad's and shield) that makes the healers' job a whole lot easier. Not to mention the tank should have some defensive skills of his own. Pets can tank as well, but that encroaches upon the master's skill bar and limits his own choices. At least two slots will be taken by Charm/Comfort Animal, and Call of Protection is always decent at reducing damage.

Damage is absolutely REQUIRED to complete most missions. Sanctum Cay is an exception but there aren't many others. It doesn't matter where the damage comes from as long as you get it. Eles, warriors, necros, heck a smiting monk, it doesn't matter as long as all the other roles are filled. You just need to be able to hurt the enemies enough to kill them.

Now, coordination is, imo, the most important thing a party can have. If you have 8 people all running in different directions then you're probably gonna lose. The best thing that can happen is for the leader of the group to be knowledgeable about the mission or quest, tell everyone so, and then direct the group with map directions. This keeps everyone together. Now, to make sure everyone fills their roles, they should tell everyone their purpose and give any special instructions to help fill the purpose better. For instance, a tank would say, "Hey I'm a tank, and I've got some good defensive skills, so stay out of my aggro circle when I aggro the enemies. Once they've all attacked me, actually hit me, then you guys can come on in," or something like that. An Ele nuker could say to the tank "Try to get the enemies close together." An SS nec could do the same. Now an MM could say "Please try to kill enemies that leave corpses first so I can make some minions."
With that setup, here's what would end up happening. The Warrior would go in and aggro a group of 3 melee, 4 casters. He would run straight to the casters, so that the melee and the casters are now close together. The group, which has been patiently staying back, sees the tank being hit and so comes in to do some damage. The Warrior calls one of the casters, one of the three enemies that leaves a corpse, and so everyone gets on that caster. The healers are efficiently healing the tank whenever he takes a dangerous amount of damage. The ele nuker and SS Nec are hitting that target with everything they've got while the MM uses some support spells he brought that he could use until he got some minions up. The target goes down, and the SS nec, realizing the MM needs minions, decides not to Putrid Explosion the corpse. The MM then makes his minion, the Warrior calls the next corpse-leaving target, and the group proceeds to the next target. This would all happen within the span of about 20 seconds.

That's an optimal thing though, a type of coordination usually achievable only in one's guild. Notice, however, that no one except the tank was being attacked so that's all the healers had to worry about. The others were then free to fill their roles without needing to worry about getting hit. As long as you can get that in a PuG, chances are you're gonna have an easy time with the quest/mission, at least compared to what it would be.

In conclusion and to sum up everything I just said:

In PvE, as far as I'm concerned who you get doesn't matter, their skills don't matter, as long as you have someone who can tank, someone who can heal, someone who can protect (optional, but helpful), and some people who can deal damage. Just get some coordination after that and you're good. As a side note, anyone can be considered someone who protects if it prevents damage to the party. A Winter Ranger in the Fire Islands for instance. An Interrupt Ranger or Mesmer when battling Glint. A Warrior who's not the primary tank snaring enemies that chase after the softies. If you can prevent damage, focus damage, heal damage, and deal damage, in PvE you're good. Those people who think you should only use one specific build just want things done their way. One build may be more effective but as long as you can do what was stated above, things will work out. This is why I don't demand a specific build, I just work around whoever I have in my group.

The Four Rules of Damage in Guild Wars:

Prevent damage. Avoid taking damage if you can.
Focus damage. Attack one target, and make sure the enemies attack only your tank. This also falls under preventing damage.
Heal damage. Someone's gonna get hurt. Make sure you can heal it.
Deal damage. If you can't hurt the enemies, they're not gonna die.

I hereby dub this the PFHD rule of PvE. I just came up with it during this post believe it or not XD. If you follow the PFHD rule, you should be fine.

Now, for PvP it's different. You can't focus damage to your party. The enemies will not see a tank in their aggro circle and say "ATTACK!" Preventing damage is possible by kiting but prevents you from doing anything else. Healing is absolutely REQUIRED, generally by combining healing and protection across your two or three monks. Protection is attainable by having a spirit Ritualist in your party. Damage comes from just about any non-healing source. In PvP you want to be as effective as possible. Therefore, demanding a specific build is more justified. In PvE you can substitute less healing for more damage, but in PvP, you need as much as you can of both. Due to the rigid requirements, only the most effective builds are welcomed. Yes, IWAY is still an effective build if the enemy doesn't have a clue how to beat it. After all, you're not aiming for just one goal of getting past a bunch of NPC enemies, you're fighting other HUMANS who are using the most effective builds. Therefore, you want to be using the most effective builds yourself to be on par with them. Skill then plays a major factor, as whoever's better at playing that build will win.

So yes, in PvP the variety is limited, but it's much more justified in PvP than PvE. Most experiments are possible only with one's guild and alliance in PvP. So if you want to experiment, that's really your only choice. Otherwise, you'll find a group fairly easily :P

And as for "elitism" in the sense of "I have 15k armor so you're a noob and you will do what I say or you will be kicked" or something like that, having a certain item does not reflect a certain skill level. Heck, he could've Ebayed and bought the gold to buy it, we don't know. The only reflection of skill level anymore is to see someone in action. Rank is now more of an indication of who's been playing the game for a decently long time, as I haven't seen any non-rank 3+ groups in HA for a while. I'm r4, so that doesn't affect me, but restricting access to HA means no one else will even get to r3. Personally, I think a temporary rank system (something like WoW's) would be good, and would be used in all forms of PvP, not just HA. But I digress. Anyway, people who believe they're better because they use a certain build are wrong because it's the build that's better, not necessarily the player.

Well I just had a brainfart so I can't remember what I was gonna say next. Anyway, if you come across someone in PvE who doesn't like you for the build you use, just forget him and make your own group. In PvP, sorry to say this, but you probably won't even get people to join a group you make.

Wow...I don't even know where to respond...

As a general rule of thumb, MM's are a nice addition to most PvE parties. However, there are many, many instances where a MM is INFERIOR to other necromancer roles. These include:

1. Areas without an abundance of exploitable corpses.
2. When you are soloing (without henchmen) against very high level enemies.
3. When facing enemies with high amounts of AoE damage, since minions are stupid enough to not scramble from that AoE.

I play many different types of necromancer roles, MM being one of them. I can say that in many high level areas, I have found that a BiP necromancer is much more valuable to a party (keeping the monks charged) than the incremental benefit of having additional targets that go down in one hit.

To the OP -

Part of your post is really targeting discontent with the "cookie cutter" builds that are demanded by parties. I have found, however, that almost every party out there asks players to fill a certain "role" in their party, but aside from taking 2-3 required skills to fill that role, the remaining 5-6 skills are generally COMPLETELY flexible, allowing you to play with your build to fill other roles as well.

For example - if a party asks for a SS/SV Necro, you know that you have to carry (1) Spiteful Spirit; (2) Spinal Shivers; (3) Arcane Echo. A ressurection signet is also highly desireable.

Guess what - that leaves another 4 skills that you can play with. Yes, there are some inherent skills that just work beautifully with these skills, such as Awaken the Blood and Blood Ritual, but again, not absolutely required and 99% of the time you won't be ostracized for not bringing those. That allows you to play around, to create originality within that "role", and may cause you to create some synergies that others may not have thought of.

So, in short, Elitism exists, but there are many ways to navigate around it to continue to have fun in the game.

It's just maturity level >_< Some players I've seen have every right to brag because they are JUST THAT GOOD (however they typically don't)! Others brag because it makes them feel better because they have a cool sword/axe/bow/staff or because they have the uber armor.... Elitism should stay with those who are skilled enough to be named thusly. Typically you will find that those who are that good won't brag on it. And those who do typically suck so bad -_-

Case in point: An old guildie of mine thought he was so uber elite with his 55 mo/w and that he could take on the world (back before the AoE nerf). We were trying to do Thirsty and he said he could practically solo the mission and so forth... I told the chic I was with not to count on it and I would have prefered not to have him along.... He died 3 times before we ever even made it to any gates! THREE RESTARTS! So he semi rage quit saying he was dissapointed in how badly he was playing today -_o (like that was any different from any other time). She and I restarted and completed the mission first try without him.
Don't brag unless you can REALLY back it up -_-
That guildie eventually moved back to WoW >_>

Explain to me, why, out of 200+ guilds copying EvIL's build down to the very last skill, none of them are in the top 100?

Whoa! Nazi communism and non-MM hate aside, back onto the original topic:

Elitism comes with the territory. The fact that the game has a competitive element incurs it. In any setting where competition leads to one party taking victory or being ranked above another in any way will over time lead to elitism in the environment. It's in human nature to struggle to survive, and feel good when one succeeds. It's occurred throughout history, and it's not something that can be fixed. Mankind needs that sort of struggle, that sort of competition to fuel their inner drive toward progress. Case in point: the space race. We would never have even known anything existed beyond the grass under our feet if man had been content sitting here on our duffs. We would never have made many of the advances in technology if not for that competition. War causes much of the same results. Mankind needs conflict to progress. It's what separates us from the animals, who (once they have all they need to live out a comfortable life) simply comply with their situation and make no further effort to willfully change.

Also, elitism is neccessary to the competition in any such game. People don't participate in contests just for the trophy. They're out for the territory that comes with it. What would happen if everyone in PvP thought to the effect: "Oh that poor player doesn't have a very trusted skillbar... maybe i shouldn't roxor his boxors cuz he can't handle it." That marshmallow and icecream world may sound nice, but would it be any more fun than Mr. Neo Nazi's straight up suits all the time reality? Actually, they sound rather similar if you consider he was complaining that all NewGens* only care about themselves.

So, in short, other than people generally being assholes, the elitism (to a degree) is unavoidable and neccessary. In-game changes may reduce it, but you'll never completely get rid of it. And for the sake of competition, I hope you never do. I do agree that some people take it to another level, a level of dickhead proportions. Once again, however, that problem has been around for ages, and is not something that any in-game fix can control.

* I can't resist here: the age range of the average gamer is between 18 and 30... A much older age bracket than was estimated when video games were first concieved. This indicates the consumers have grown with the market (or the market with the consumers depending on how you look at it), instead of new ones being brought in. So what's up with your so-called "newgen?" I'm 19, and still a part of that first gen. That's right, I know what Atari is. I remember Pitfall.

I dont have a problem with Elitism if the person is not full of hot air.

I dont have a problem with Newbies if they are willing to learn.

And no matter how much people think their little personal builds roxx00rzs teh box0rz it means very little to those who know how to play the game. If you want to throw a tantrum and label it elitism, I welcome it.

Sli Ander's build sure looks like a lot of fun, but to me it smacks of 'incompetence'. If you want to have fun with your own build that groups aren't really willing to sponsor, then I suggest you use henchies. I don't even know where to start with the general critique:

Healing breeze - subpar healing skill. This skill will not save anyone who is near death. Although you are an admiited smite monk, so I suppose you don't care.

rebirth - standard skill.

bane signet - why?

banish - why?

Shield of judgement - This works if you've got one tank (pray for no ench strips)

charm animal
comfort animal

Balthazar's Aura - so you're going to have someone tank with SoJ and then scatter all of the monsters with Balt's aura?

Your build might be fun, but you're being shortsighted and selfish by attempting to tell people that they should be forced to allow your type of gameplay. It's worse that your build is not anywhere near optimal (in comparison to a real axe warrior..? an MM? a ele nuker?) in terms of damage output. The biggest crime I think that lies with your accusations is that you put up a build like this and then cry "elitism" when people kick you from your group. I'm not entirely surprised to be honest. If I was forming a group and you told me the build, I would probably kick you as well unless you were willing to change your build.

If you want to smite, I suggest PvP's FotM Air of Ench smiting. It's about 20x better than your build.

Finally - it doesn't matter whether you like hearing elitist comments or not. The raw truth is just that, and no matter how much you close your eyes and cover your ears the fact will not change or go away.

I think the more famous WoW quote would be: L2P (Learn to Play).

Its a Game and one with no subscription at that, expect more jerk than normal if they have not grown bored and left that is.

yea really want to the problem fame/ emote!

I think anet should block that emote from pve! peroid why it recks the fun for alot of people!

Hmm..I will try to summerize my point the best I can.
Ok, to begin with...I would like to start off by asking a question.Well, rather a statement.Now, as far as i understand, Arena Net's goal in creating Guild Wars was to create a revolutionary game, A non-grinding essentially game where players could be distinguished by skill.

Well, to the common observer, maybe one who has been involved in gaming, such as MMORPG's for a while, would see this as an awsome idea. "Wow," he/she would think, "No more grinding and sensless eliteism over someone spending more time on the game than me!!" Yes, that must seem like a happy moment.

That actually was exactly how i reacted, but after more thought before buying the game i wondered how this would be accomplished. Hehe, in my "quote, unquote" noob days i was greatly impressed. "Yes!!" i thought, finally no more pointless grind, finally a worthwile game!".

Hehe, well what did i find out? They had made this game COMPLETELY WRONG for their objective. With the seemingly limited skill availability, and game objectives as well, this game appeared just as the others. Dang, i guess you are more skilled than me because you can CLICK your mouse FASTER! ZOmg, better timing, i am blown away by your greatness.

THe idea is great, but the setup is wrong. THe infestructure of the game must be changed in order to acheive the idea of skill greatness.

Um... if he can click the mouse at the right time, e.g. infusing through a necro spike while you can't, then, yeah, he's more skilled than you.

Pretty simple, really.

Ahhh...but that "faster click" isn't due to Jedi reflexes or a HAL-2000 computer...

"Skill" in Guild Wars is derived from the following, IMO:

1. Planning. Yes, the cookie-cutter player builds and team builds that you find on these and other forums are very nice as they are tested and well thought out. But those that truly excel at the game aren't lemmings - they grasp the concepts behind the builds and adjust them to their particular situation.

2. Anticipation. The "quick click" you refer to above is nine times out of ten due to skill. Anticipating your enemy's next action can make all the difference in whether a player lives or dies, whether that boss is interrupted or whether your team gets mobbed by 1,000 enemies because you triggered an unforseen trap. Some of the best monks I've played with had anticipated spikes right before they happened, preventing much of the damage and having a ton of energy left to spare due to their anticipation.

3. Adaptation. I've seen many cookie-cutter PvE teams fall apart due to a player disconnecting, the monk dying in a bad spot, etc. That is where the players with skill truly shine through - they can adapt to their current situation and adjust their strategies accordingly in order to compensate for the weakness, versus just rage-quitting and chalking it up to a loss.

There is a massive amount of skill involved in Guild Wars...it is just hard to glean that since we don't wear a badge of inflated levels on our chests like other games...

Along with what you both said, Lacasner still has a valid point. The skills are what make the planning, anticipation, and adaptation possible. There are already a great number of skills, but only so many are considered to be truly effective. Think of skills like a collectible card game. The more there are, the more skill is required to determine which ones to include to play effectively. Also, most players start out in such games by purchasing a pre-built deck, then teak it by adding cards obtained later. Guild Wars skill system works in much the same way. So, theoretically, more skills are added to the game with each chapter (or expansions / prebuilt decks in a CCG). Eventually, players starting on Chapter XYZ will have skills different to someone starting on Chapter ABC, and although the core skills are available accross all chapters, it takes skill to know which ones to bring and how to utilize them.

lol @ everyone typing essays over this
you guys talking about "elitism" is no better then the players who youre talking about
these "elite" you talk about play hours and hours each day and diss anyone who doesnt play as much as them
you guys are doing the same thing, youre dissing them because they play too much
whos in any position to judge anyone over this? why diss someone over their choice of playing habits?
some people choose to devote their life to a game, some like to play the game for fun, some play to kill time; theres hundreds of reasons why people play games
lmao @ the dude who said the world should go back to beating school children and force people in the military, yeah ok we can do that, then you can say bye to what america stands for; freedom

Was edison inventing the lightbulb a competition between thousands of people? no. Sure, If I was the only pvp'er in the world, I wouldn't be complaining at all. Try making analogies that make sense.

Again, babe ruth struck out twice as much as he hit homers, but then again, are there any basebal fans that have 180+ home runs and 7 strikeouts (comparing to EViL's current record). Again, make analogies that are relevant. Don't use analogies that require different circumstances.

There aren't 150 ways to lose. Only 2. And they hit each of them 75 times.

Because they all get stomped by people who know what they're doing. EViL's individual builds are hard to run for people who suck enough to copy it.
Even so, in a case between to nearly identical builds, skill is a secondary requirement for winning. In a game of skill (check the GW boxes, that's what they say), skill should be a primary requisite for winning.

I think the term "alpha class" fits them better. GW reinforces said class each time they make things so difficult, that only the alpha's can master it. That said, the ONLY thing they listen to (gw) is lack of sales. If you are truly unhappy with the status quo, don't order nightfall. If it fails miserably you are in the majority and they have to either listen or explain lost revenue to shareholders. If sales sore then you are in the minority and can either stay and live with it or go elsewhere.

The thing is, many people live in game, they wake up enter the game and stay throughout the day and night and only log out to sleep. They feel superior here and choose to dwell in game and seek refuge behind their assumed persona, be it a "nice" one or "rude" one. I've heard people say so many times.. "Dude I'm just role playing ..relax..". Which is what the game is for so I'm told. I can't be two people myself, for better or worse, I'm the same in game and out, warts and all.

I do have some concern at the rage some vent wantonly, and inflict on others. I see some potential time bombs ticking that are a hair from snapping. But to be fair I've seen that displayed in many online games, diseffected youth , social misfits, perhaps with real issues trying to find a release in game. Most in game assume GW does nothing to them, GW swears they do, more seem to exist.. So its viscous cycle. Although I feel defeated in doing so, I now have chat's off, except for guild. I do wish we had a way to make it so only people on our friends list could IM us. That would be a very desired addition in my opinion.

Back on Topic:

There is no cure (in-game or in real life) for elitism. Some people (of all ages) are insecure and need to feel that they are better-looking, richer, or have more costly toys than the next person. Changing the game will not change human nature.

Joining groups problem - a) adjust your build to suit the group/area, b) start your own group and don't tell them your build, just that you're not a healer, c) do as much of the game as you can with henchmen and never finish with this character.

OFF-TOPIC again

I will point out that your build as a smiting monk/ranger needs work to make it more attractive to groups (and more useful to you). You're currently wishy-washy in both professions. When joining a group, either drop the pet or give him at least one attack skill to make him more effective - Poisonous Bite if you have Factions - otherwise you are wasting two skill slots on him that you could use for monk skills, either smiting or healing.

My build smacks of incompetence? Your post smacks of the inability to read. I stated that I use that build to solo and hench. Its for fun, so I switch to something else when playing with a group. For a better explanation go look in the monk forum, I have it posted in a smiter thread.
Trying to force me to allow a certain type of gameplay? I thought that the point of playing an online game was that you could play any way you want, as long as it didn't ruin the fun for someone else. My build isn't 'optimal' but its a challenging and rewarding way to hench. I have no problem fulfilling a role in a group. I'm just asking that people expand exactly who is allowed to play what role.
As for closing my eyes and covering my ears, I'm not. I'm posting a thread asking for ideas on how to make it harder to be an 'alpha class'/elitist or whatever you wish to call it. And though the FotM may be 20x better, I find it more fun to play a build I've worked on myself. It's 20x more fun for me.

You were much politer about it, so I figured I'd answer you seperately. It's an odd build that I developed over time to work with henchies. When I work with a group, I often have to leave my cat at home because a) I have to heal or b) I have to put more smite in so that I can deal damage quicker. I'm currently working on a good smiting build by trying to get more Factions skills, a build much more suited to working with groups. But I have fun henching with this one.I've henched my way through everything but the high end missions, where I ended up having to fill a lot of healers rolls to be able to get into a group. Hopefully the advent of the Rit healer will give smiters a bit of breathing room. And hopefully Rit's won't get stuck being asked to do nothing but heal.

I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to want to party with people who are good.

"Elitists" have every right to kick you for not using the build they want. They are the leader. You are not. You are joining them, not the other way around. If you dont like their leading do two things. One, leave. And two, start your own group. So many people complain about people getting kicked by the leader. Well guess what, if you are the leader you decide who is in and who is out. Stop being lazy and start your own group. Dont expect the people who arent lazy and start their own group to conform to your ways.
I wonder about that too. A lot of people seem to think that we have to put up with noobs or else we are "elitists"


Edit to add more stuff: (To Sli) You complain about being forced to play a certain style of game play. Well doesnt it work the other way around? You say you shouldnt have to put up with them. Should they have to put up with you?

1.I use the term 'Elitists' to describe people who are jerks. I've said before in this thread that there are acceptable reasons for kicking people. If you flame me because I carry a particular skill, calling me a noob, and then kick me, then yes you fall under the title of 'Elitist'. If you ask me to change my build to suit a role I was asked to fill before I joined the party, and I refuse(rudely): then you are being reasonable to kick me, because I'm not being enough of a team player to suit your needs.
2.And I've often seen people start their own groups, so its not always the best solution. I've often seen 20 people starting their own groups, but because everyone wants to be a leader, there are no followers to fill the ranks. Also, even if I'm the nominal leader, if I haven't done the mission before then I usually let someone more experienced tell us what needs to be done for the mission. Sometimes its more practical to follow, sometimes its best to lead, either way there is no reason to be impolite about it.
3. This thread is not just about people being kicked. Its about a general attitude of which everyone seems to think kicking/grouping is a good example. 'Elitism' is about people who are unreasonable, rude, and just plain jerks. I don't expect to walk into a group and have the group conform to 'my ways' I accept what they want or I leave. But if I want to smite, I announce it before joining. I let people know what they are in for when they invite me, so if I accept being into a group, it means I'm accepting the role that has been offered.
4. Putting up with 'noobs'(in reference to people who are new to the game, not Leeroy Jenkins know it alls) is part of the game. There is always going to be someone better at a particular aspect of the game, and someone who is always going to be worse. By playing with others, rather than henching, you accept the risk of playing with a human, and humans are prone to error. If you treat noobs with the same attitude with which you have posted in this thread, then I'd say you're much more suited to henching or playing with people who know you well enough that they won't be offended.
5. Keep that pride. You just showed yourself to be an 'Elitist' with that 'my way or the highway' kinda attitude. Its fine to want to play with a bunch of veterans. It's fine if you want to beat some mission in a certain time limit, or you don't want to have to repeat it half a dozen times. Thats why we have friends lists and guilds. But to treat complete strangers with such a dictatorial tone and insulting disdain is highly offensive.

I'm in a minority in this game. I never attempt to force people to play my way, I simply ask that I be given the chance. Thats why I hench a lot. If nobody wants to play my way, the henchies will always help me out. But being force to play a certain way isn't all that this thread is about. I've heard lots of complaints about not being able to get into groups in PvP because of the rank system, or having to wait an hour to find enough people to start an unranked group. Should they have to put up with their time being wasted? Should the ranking people have to put up with their time being wasted if the new pvp'er rage quits? Everything goes both ways. Thats why this thread is about trying to get some ideas out about the problem and how to fix it. Fix it without ruining everyones game experience. If I want to be able to use my Smiting powers, they should be given a chance(Otherwise there is no point in having them). If they want to use nothing but premade builds, they already have the chance. I'm just trying to root for the underdogs here.

Damn that's a super crappy build for a group, just shows how good the henchies actually are in the game

There is a solution to this, just ignore the elites and make friends. Play with trusted people and dont associate yourself with people that use the word noob or act like elitist scum. If you are an experienced player invest some of your time in people that are willing to learn and have a good attitude on the game. Its a staple of life, there will always be jerks. Just ignore them and dont be one yourself.

Although I have to admit ive been agitated the last couple of weeks and taking my frustrations out while trying to play. Its just a game so have fun, thats why you play right?

I just don't understand why I would be labeled an "elitist" because I want to make sure that people who aren't idiots are the ones who end up in my group. Granted, I can't see how skilled Joe Pick-Up actually is until we're in an instance, but I can at least make sure that his skillbar isn't complete and utter crap.

More often than not, if I ask someone what they're running and the only way they can describe their build to me is by listing all of their skills, they're not worth taking.

I'm not interested in partying with people who are so desperate to show off their "individuality" and "creativity" and "pride in not running the things that countless other people have proven work". If you want to run some weird, off-the-wall build, go right ahead: you just won't get in my group.

I started as a Necro a couple of days ago, Now I got her to Kaineng Centre and I've set her up for curses. I'm going to go to Tyria to find her Blood Ritual. I'm interested to see if people will accept a curses necro into their group, since I sure as hell will not be changing to MM unless I want to!

Kick elitism square in the nuts!! If they don't want a curses necro - I'll do it with henchmen!!

I had the problem with being kicked out of groups when I started as my first character, an Elementalist. I love air magic, because the lightening just looks so godly! I used to get kicked out of groups because people didn't want an air spiker. They never thought to ask if I could change (since I keep a pyromancer's aura on me, as well as a ton of fire skills so I don't lose out on the attribute points), but they just kick me anyway, usually with the explanation "sorry - don't need you". Charming! It's as though people take ONE look at my aura, which is usually an aeromancer's aura and assume I'm crap since I'm an air spiker, never mind the Protector of Cantha title I have, which I got ONLY using air magic skills...

... And what else are you being kicked for? If they kick you because you have a particular skill that your group leader doesn't think belongs in his group, well he has that right. Just start your own group, like people said.

No. There are MORE "LFGs" in any mission group than "GLF"'s because people prefer to have other people do the work.

So what's the problem here? If the group leader whose group you're getting into needs a smiter, he'll keep you. If he doesn't, you'll get kicked. I don't see what's so off the wall here... If no one wants a smiter, then just start your own group.

I want to get through a mission while having the most amount of fun. Having some wammo aggor everything then complain about the monk being ineffective is not fun. Having a monk who's ineffective at healing because he blows all of his energy on earth elementalist skills while the rest of your team dies is not fun. If you want to bring a gimped build into my team and refuse to optimize/improve it after I tell you to, then, yeah, I have every right to kick you. Think that's unfair? Start your own group.

"dictatorial tone"? "insulting disdain"? Buddy, this is a video game. Get over it. Can't do that? Start your own group.

Then I guess there's something wrong with your way. Ever think about that?

I've never had trouble finding an unranked group in HA.

I have no problem if you want to join my group with a non-premade build, as long as you can fill the role you're suppose to. Spreading deep wounds with shattered pain and epidemic? Welcome aboard! Death nova on summoned minions with taste of death as trigger? Welcome aboard! Monk/Ranger with attributes spead out over all 7 lines and a skill from each? No thanks.

If you get kicked without even being requested that you change your skills, if the 'leader' just assumes that the skills you have on your skillbar are the ONLY ones you have, then yes, he is being an elitest git and certainly anything but a team player!

That's me right there - I'm real lazy - I must admit I'd prefer someone else to put the group together... Occaisonally during a mission I may put my foot down and try to persuade people sto do it another way if our leader seems a little incapable - but it's never that often.

Urm, no-one wants a smiter. Also, if you say "Smiter LFG", you'll get invited anyway because you are a monk and NOONE will take any notice that you are a smiter until you're in the mission and noone gets healed

Quite - If you don't come to an agreement with your party leader about your skills then he really does have the right to let you go... "Kick" is such an emotive word...

This is rapidly becoming a circular argument and a potential flamewar.

Closed.