Increase the level cap to 100, 1000, whatever...

I can't believe I couldn't find a single thread in these forums regarding the raising of the the level cap. I checked through the index of ideas thread (found here), and did a few searches too. Maybe a mod could add this thread to that list.

I never thought I'd say it, but this game needs it's level cap raised. I'm not a power gamer and many times I think power gamers are a little weird. I don't have the urge to "pwn nubs" with one hit kills on my level 99999 character. I like being on a level playing field with everyone else. But we do need power gamers in Guild Wars to fill our towns and teams especially as future expansions are released and the number of towns grows. I'd bet the level cap being only 20 is the number 1 reason most people give for not leaving other games to get into Guild Wars. Even most people that don't consider themselves power gamers will agree this level cap is too low.

In my experience the ideal number for a level cap should relate to the real-life maximum age of a human. I don't know if it's a subconscious thing, but there's just something very appealing about being in the 40-100 level range and feeling like you have wisdom and experience (I'm only 25 years old IRL by the way). Furthermore, I think 100 is the ideal level cap cause it's a nice round number, and the number gains a 3rd digit, an extra show of power.

When my friends sold me on Guild Wars last year I remember asking them why the level cap was so low, and they told me the level cap would be raised by 10 or 20 every expansion pack. I don't think that's something they read from any Anet source. It's just something that was expected. I think we shared this expection with many people and of course when expectations aren't met people are let down.

Why was it an expectation though? First, there's the historical reasons. Simply raising the level cap by a little bit as a common form of bait for customers to buy expansions is something almost every MMORPG does. Look at WoW, DAoC, EQ, etc.... In this regard I'm glad Guild Wars expansions continue to surprise us by not giving us these cheap tactics and mandatory grinds. I'm confident that my accomplishments in Prophecies and Factions will never be watered down or made pointless by future additions. Second, there's the natural expectation of a level cap to be approximate to the maximum age of a human as I explained before.

Of course there's other ways to advance a character other then just level as Anet has shown us with the Titles system. I'm very pleased with the introduction of titles especially the explorer and protector titles. I remember being called a "noob" many times for wanting to complete a bonus or explore an area of the map in Tyria, but now I have Protector and Explorer titles on both continents, and I have a way to show off my eliteness. Although I know way too many people that don't pursue any titles. Maybe it's because you can only display 1 at a time. Maybe it's because they are so hard to max out. Maybe it's because they don't increase your power for obtaining them. It could be those reasons, but I think it's because titles are too complicated and people prefer a simple number level system.

Regardless the reasons, the fact is that far too many people don't appreciate titles as they are now. I'll never be able to sell Guild Wars to some of my friends that play WoW with my elite Explorer title, or even if I had a rank 15 emote. That won't get their attention. Now if I said I were level 100 and showed them ultra-rare weapons and armor that would get their attention. Maybe if I told them I was only level 79 and the max is 100, but it's so hard to get no one has ever reached it yet. I guess any change is better then telling friends I'm level 20, everyone is level 20, and they can get to level 20 in 5 hours.

With that being said, what is the best way to raise the level cap? It could be done an infinite number of ways. Many important questions need to be asked when designing for a level increase. Should being higher then level 20 make that character more powerful then a level 20, more versatile, or only as a show of accomplishment? Should the level cap increase be very complicated and tied in with new game features such as Titles, or should it be strictly experience point based?

I have several different ideas on how to increase the level cap, but I'll just write 3 here. Without further ado are my ideas.

Title based level increase:
- For select titles you have you get 1 level while over level 20.
- For rank 3 Hero you get +1 level, for rank 6 Hero you get +1 level, etc...
- For rank 3 Gladiator you get +1 level, for rank 6 Gladiator you get +1 level, etc...
- A maxed Explorer title gets you +1 level.
- Each Protecter of ... title you obtain gets you +1 level.
- Each rank in the Skill Hunter title gets you +1 level.
- No level increase for drinking, gambling, or Survivor titles.
- No power increase not even a nominal one for being level 20+... it wouldn't be fair to people with no interest in PvP or some titles. The grind would feel painfully mandatory for many if a power increase were involved.

Experience/Skill based level increase:
- A more traditional approach to leveling. Would basically account for skill points and experience earned after level 20, and convert that to a level 20+ character.
- Would feel very natural to gain skills along with levels.
- The game would need a way for characters to change primary professions. It's useless to acquire all the necro skills on a warrior primary profession for example. Would need to expand storage drastically for a character to store multiple armor sets, weapons, etc...
- This system would allow a player to gain levels with greater flexibility then the title system. As long as a player is killing and gaining experience, they would be gaining levels.
- The system would mostly be to show a characters versatility through the availability of skills, but could also permit a small and infrequent increase in power without stepping on the toes of casual gamers too much.

Experience/Skill based level increase (chapter specific) :
- Similar to the change listed above, but with the changes solely inside a certain campaign or chapter.
- Every time a character enters a new campain his level is reset to 1 and/or he enters an alternate way of advancing his character, possibly levelling to greater then level 20 and even having different and greater powers. When he returns to Tyria or Cantha he level returns to 20.
- Maybe this certain campaign could be the "power gamers paradise" just like Factions is the "grind and PvP paradise" and Prophecies is the "explorers paradise". It could be a place where power gamers could truly feel like they're "pwning nubs".

It's hard to say which one of my ideas is my favorite. I truly like the Title system and would love to see levels based off that, but that still doesn't address the lack of appeal of this game to power gamers. Power gamers want an advantage not just recognition so I'm inclined to go with my second idea, and give them more recognition for versatility, and maybe even a small extra power boost over people with lower levels then them.

Edit: I would appreciate it if a mod would delete the flame posts in this thread. This isn't a petition or a whine thread, but a constructive suggestion. Please contribute something to the conversation, or don't post at all.

Stop suggesting this, it's not happening.

PS: Its suggested almost everyday.

Raising the lvl cap is a daily suggestion, and it's not gonna happen. Since GW allows you to take new characters to old chapters, they would have to basically rebalance the entire game just to raise the cap. It's a waste of time, time that could be spent on them fixing the more serious errors around here (lag, reconnects, and so on). While there are several people that want it to go higher than 20, it's been said repeatedly by the devs that the lvl cap will not be raised.

I will get my Hotdog ready for the roast....

Funny you mention why the level cap increase does not appear in the idea index page... Anyhow, I will save the explaination of why the generall agreement of no level cap increase for the other.

You can think of your skill points as your level if you feel that need.

I personally like a system that was a suggestion by someone sometime ago by just taken out your level entirely when you reach lv 20. Replace it with a star or something. Of course, that might run in a bit of trouble when fighting lv 20+ mob, as some new people might not get it. So I guess that would a be one reason why A.net never done that.

Fact is their are more than a dozen MMOs that follow the "average" type of RPG gameplay with similar mechanics. Spending tireless hours leveling does not prove you have any skill. Attributes are much better than the normal agility, strength, speed, etc. All that common attribute s*** just gets boring. GW is about skill, raising the level cap would simply infuriate the main majority of the community who play GW since its different. If you want a higher level cap and everything else in a "traditional" MMO. Play something like final fantasy or ragnarok. Many people like GW because its unique, something that is seldom seen with other online RPGs.

I say no....
I like lvl 20

I find the levels in guild wars rather redundant. certain low level foes are a bothersome to fight & some high lvl foes 26 are easy & players are locked at lvl20 for majority of the game. People that arnt lvl20 rush there, and then take it easy to explore. If the lvls where visually removed, nothing would change much. In fact it may improved some behavior.

In cantha, the lvl progression is so rapid it takes away the fun from leveling. I kinda like leveling, but in Guild Wars its not leveling at all. So its diffrent & fun in another way

Wow a bit harsh on me don't you think? If you read what I posted you'll see that I'm in the same boat as all of you. I love Guild Wars for being unique. In fact, I'd love it if Guild Wars didn't even have a level system. That would be innovative. But we do have a level system and capping it at level 20 is a joke. If you read through my post you'd see that I think the level should reflect accomplishments we have after being level 20 without actually making us more powerful, or maybe throw power gamers a small bone to keep them interested.

Honestly, I'm a little bit dissappointed for being flamed. I wrote a little disclaimer not to flame me, but took it out, because I thought people would be smarter then that.

I have over 2,000 hours in Guild Wars on my account. I had over 2,000 hours in WoW before I quit. WoW was my first MMORPG. I played every Final Fantasy except 2, 3, 9, and 10-2 for countless hours, but probably won't play the new ones because many of the original creators have left. I also played Diablo 1 and 2, Chrono games, etc... I've probably played more games then all the people combined that just flamed me. Anyone going to read what I typed and respond?

I wasn't trying to flame you. I simply mentioned those 2 games as an example of traditional MMOs. Sorry if it came of as being harsh. That wasn't my intention.

No, because it's dumb. Any suggestion to increase the level cap is dumb by default; sorry.

Also:

looooooool

You played popular games good job.

I think leveling up based on accomplishments sounds like an interesting idea but, personally, I do not think it would work since it would reflect how much time someone spent getting these titles, etc (IE. how many Unids someone bought, how many chest runs they went on, etc), which doesn't seem to be the feel of Guild Wars. I like the current system which is sort of like raising the level cap. You have your level of 20, but then you have titles which you can level up and which can show up which sort of adds to your "level". Apart from that, you present interesting points, but nothing that can be feasibly intergrated into the game and still keep the overall feel. I did want to see another level cap myself in Factions, but then I saw it from the viewpoint that if you are level 20 in prophecies and you buy factions and go to level 30, then you have an advantage over everyone who doesn't have factions which can be unfair. For example, someone lvl 20 is running droks, then you, lvl 30 are running it too. You are obviously going to be faster and more efficient. So, A new level cap would be something to look forward to in other MMORPGs but it really doesn't fit in guild wars.

GW is NOT a game that needs a higher level cap.

I read your post, and your not in the same boat as me if you think the cap needs to be raised. As discussed before (plenty of times, I cant believe you couldnt find another post ) it would screw up PvP and gaining a level for each "accomplishment" would completely mess up the idea of GW and why most people play it (the skill>time, which isnt exactly true, but there is no physical difference between what 2 character can or cant do other then knowledge and chapters or lack of).

Btw I dont care how many games you have played...its not happening.



EDIT: Made it a little less harsh.

"Signet of Disapproval"

Well, I've just finished reading your post, and I understand which direction you are coming from. Sure, it makes perfect sense on why the cap should be raised and how it can make you look "superior" to others.

The problem is that this game is supposedly based on PvP. If you've payed attention to the update notes regarding the skill nerfs, more often than not, it's to balance out the PvP playing field.

What does PvP have to do with not raising the cap? Guild Wars happens to believe in equality among all the players, and having someone be 5 levels than you doesn't seem equal. Though in actual playing it will be perfectly even, the higher level status could create another Rank effect. Many players will agree with me when I say: there will be groups that only want level 90's and higher.

Though it makes sense that a team would want to consist of nothing but "experienced" players, this could really cause a problem when it comes to new players who want to get into PvP. Believe it or no, there are countless players who stray away from PvP just because they couldn't get into a competitive group that would allow a Rank 0 player.

If you have problems getting your friends into the game through explanation, then why not let them play with your character at your house and let them see how the game is by themselves? If the ability to become a high level character is so important to a person, then Guild Wars is not for them.

As for getting flamed right on the spot, it was probably because of your opening sentence: I can't believe I couldn't find a single thread in these forums regarding the raising of the the level cap. There have been many, many threads that address this situation, and I have argued in most of them. In fact, there are times where people take sides on the situation and feelings get hurt fast. The people who go for the level cap are rarely ever seen on this forum anymore. Why? maybe because they can't stand having to try and push a point that won't work out against a group of resilient bastards like me.

I am sure more of these threads will pop out in the future, but the same arguement will be proposed, and will render the topic useless once again.

Thanks Johan for the thoughful reply. Even though you disagree with me I appreciate you giving my ideas some consideration.

And for Bako... LOL so how did you read my post but you obviously need some reading comprehension. I'll spell it out for you.

I think a level increase past level 20 should show a characters versatility and accomplishments not raise the power and attributes of that character.

Why am I bothering responding to flamers though? From now on I'm just going to wait for more people like Johan with an open mind who consider what I've wrote and give thoughtful replies before I reply.

Ok ok if someone posts links to all these threads with discussion on raising the level cap I'll go away. I promise. I've done the searches though and it's a topic that hasn't been discussed in a long time.

Hold up, I'll try to find a few.

edit - Apparantly, this new searching system just doesn't work as well as the old one. I can't even use it to find posts of the person who I've argued with countless times.

This could get tough to find those threads -_-

Oh, and the topic was last discussed about two weeks ago. Literally.

i would like to raise the max level but im sure it's not happening for several reasons...

guildwars is a balanced game. if you have say a lvl 89 and lvl 85 fighting it wouldnt be fair. also take into consideration the +20hp and attribute points for each lvl. warriors with 80-100 armor on each piece with 3000hp would be unstoppable. and the attribute points would be wack. so until they find a way to balance it out more im sure it's not happening.

As I level 20 character I go up against level 28 foes and kill them.

As a level 28 character I would go up against level 36 foes and kill them.

As a level 780964097283650927430965 character I would go up against 780964097283650927430973 foes and kill them.

Levels are totally and completely arbritrary. If the level cap was raised (not a chance) it would be rebalanced so that the highest level would be the standard level, just like level 20. Part of what makes this game so attractive is that there is still most of the game left when you are max level, meaning you can always go back and play old areas, and it's still fun. In something like EQ or WoW going back to the first few areas is boring as all heck.

For your needs of progression, titles, as you mentioned, should fill that need for you. You can also shoot for UAX, high guild rank, 15k/FoW armor, rare skins, international fame in HA, or building up a friendly guild. Or, god forbid, you could just play the farking game without having the need to show off to people that you're better than they are.

Finally, I have an awful lot of trouble believing you looked for more than 10 seconds and were unable to find one of the billion posts asking to raise the level cap.

Also, talking about raising the level cap in future expansions is a fatal flaw in your logic, they're not expansions, they're standalone chapters. You can buy just one and play just that. If they raised the level cap, everyone would have to buy it, or, more likely, no one would buy it and would just continue playing around in the previous chapters.

for every level we go up the monsters would have to go up 5, it just wouldn't be worth the time invested. PVp wouldn't change except everything be crazy strong, and pve would be grind fest...

It would be highly amusing if the level cap went up for players and monster didn't.

Player 1 "z0mg I'm level 5000 and I got pwned by Glint!"
Player 2 "LAWL NUB"

I think most of the flames come from people sick of hearing the same old debates it's nothing personal.

Personally I think a 20 cap is a joke as well, but the leveling in Factions makes it painfully obvious that the devs want nothing to with leveling systems. They decided to throw leveling to the wind and have you hit 20 coming out of the starter area. To make even more clear that they don't care about XP they even put in a mission where you can pay 2k, run 200 meters through an already cleared area and get 10,000 XP. They might as well painted a sign and had a beggar walking around in Kaineng saying, "XP don't matter. I want my mirror!"

I would like to see a higher-level cap, but based on their words and actions, it won't happen.

I really like your idea as well of basing extra levels on titles so the titles will actually matter. The only thing they have now is the "Kind of a Big Deal" thing which is a really crappy title as its cool factor is sitting on 2. They need to have another title line dealing with getting all the titles and have Kind of a Big Deal as the first rank, giving a title for collecting all of the titles as well as tacking on a really cool name to it. As is, I collect titles simply because they are there to collect, and thus are additional things I can do in the game. Not because any of the titles are really appealing to me.

I think they also need to come out with some profession related titles. I would like to have some indication of how long someone's been playing the game. It used to be that FoW armor was a good way of telling, but I've seen so many noobs that simply had a guildie give them the money and make a run with them that it no longer holds any prestige.

I want to see something on a character that tells me that they have been playing the game for a long time and probably know what they are doing. Perhaps creating a profile page for characters so you can right click them and see their character age or something...

Livingston

It was made this way because there were a giant number of level 20 characters coming over from tyria who would have been awful pissed if 75% of factions was killing level 3 grawl.

well if you did really search and didnt find anything. it is because almost every thread made about this is deleted or closed or something. it is not happening please stop suggesting this.

The fact that you couldn't find one of the 2092130219302193921839217321 threads on this topic says enough for me.

/no

I know exactly why they did it and I agree it was a very smart thing for them to do, I was just pointing out the obvious signs in case anyone should still doubt the devs opinions on it, which is why I also said the thing about the bum with the sign... it being obvious... oy…

I can see why OP is frustrated by the replies as it seems like 90% of the people in this thread replying haven't even read the post.

He clearly said he didn't see a rise in mobs or effective abilities with a level raise, but simply as an aesthetic feature.

Not arguing for or against it as it won't happen anyway, but people keep saying silly things like they can't add an extra 10 levels for each new chapter because people would be forced to buy the new chapters and they are meant to be stand alone. What the hell kind of logic is that?!? Just because they raise the level with new chapters isn't to say that you would have to have the chapter to get the 10 levels. It just means that when each new chapter came out all the other chapters would have their max level raised by ten as well.

And for all the goons out there, once again I am not saying this is the way it should be as I don't think it is. The way they have it now is balanced and it works, I'm just pointing out that some of the replies in this thread make no sense at all.

Livingston

Um, if you didn't understand, the OP said that being above level 20 would have no affect besides looks (at least how I understood it). How would there need to be balancing and stuff?



Yes, that would be the problem with this though. If the level cap was 100, then there would be a lot of people that would get to 100 and then whenever they made a group they would say something like "Making group for misison No one below level 95" because they would think that all players this high leveled are "experienced" and anyone below that level is a "noob that will cause the whole team to die". It would basically become another fame thing where either you have to have XX amount of fame to get in a group, but it will be levels instead for this.

We already have a problem with fame (I hate fame! I wish I could go to HoH just once but no groups accept me cuz I'm a "0 fame noob" ) and we don't need it with levels.

And if your friends can't see how much better having low levels is, then this game probably isn't for them (Enspecially if you have already had them play it at your house or something and they still don't want it cuz of level. They appearantly think grinding makes online games good and GW is a no grind game.)

^ If it would have no affect, why even bother making this change.

Thanks Livingston for sticking up for me.

If this is such a hot topic that people wish to discuss it daily, then why isn't there a central thread in the stickied post for the "Index of Ideas"? Believe me I'm really not trying to stoke the flames here. If there was a constructive thread about carefully raising the level cap in the "Index of Ideas" I gladly would've posted my ideas there. I used the search and couldn't find any discussions. I challenged people to find threads discussing this. If this is a dead horse issue I'll go away. Not a single person has come forth with a link meaningful discussion about this topic (remember it should be in that index anyway). Opeth tried but couldn't. I think many people here are just having nightmares during sleep about a level cap raise rather then real posts about this issue.

Well, the reason why there isn't a central thread for this was because of the fact that there were too many arguements. When someone put up a new idea, another person would shut them down and then call them stupid or something to the same effect.

A raised level cap with no additional attrib points/health would be like this
"Starting group for FoW, lvl 50+ only". Being level 20 would mean nothing. By raising the level cap, you'll make Guild Wars like every other grinding game.

if youre looking for accomplishments to be proud of in a game, youre looking in the wrong area
games are for fun, not to say OMFG I HAV LVL XXXX MY LIFE IS BETTER NOW
foreal, think of the added attributes with the levels
skills would have to be completely reworked to maintain balance
ill just stop there because im guessin im not the only one who can go on for minutes on how bad the idea is
anet based the entire game on level 20, thats how it is and will be

http://www.rpgstars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3168

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=6688

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3036195

LIKE ZOMG LOOK WHAT I FOUND FROM 2 MINUTES OF GOOGLING

Edited:GOOGLE FTW

Oh noes! Google returns!

Too bad those threads that you found weren't the big ones that had all the flaming.

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/synopsis/
Read this first.

Next please describe what how GW try to differentciate themself from the gameplay style of other Traditional MMORPG.

Than, think of the consequence if level cap is remove. What would the social climate of game be like?

And note this from the link that Actionjack posted:

Because they all get deleted.

Everything else about that Synopsis has nothing to do with levelling so I won't comment on it. There would be nothing mandatory about levelling past 20 so I don't see a problem with a "leveling treadmill". Some people are saying there would be a catastrophic climate change if elitists required parties to be 80+, but titles are already in place and not once have I seen a party for UW, FoW, Urgoz, or the Deep require someone to have a title to participate. If elitism would really wreck the PvE community don't you think it would have already done so with titles?

What I'm trying to discuss here is a way to bring more players to the game, and keep people interested longer. I'm not saying my ideas are the only way or the right way, but having a level 20 cap makes us look like a joke in the MMORPG community. I have 340+ skill points earned almost all of them spent. I have all 180 elites skill capped. I have 2 explorer titles maxed. I have 2 protector titles. Yet I'm still level 20 which is the same level someone who started there character 5 hours ago? It makes no role-playing sense. Level should have more meaning.

Level 20....Level 20 means you have accomplsihed something, and are just beginning you "GW journey" if you will. After level 20, there are still hundreds of things possible to do... Unlock every last possible option from balthazar, which in itself would take at least a month, or Cap every elite skill from prophecies AND factions, or get every skill for EVERY profession- if you can do that, youve made it, and they should have some cool title like "Guild Wars Veteran", but even that would be only the first tier in a 20 tier title....

Learning is the only thing that never fails- Merlyn
Apply it to gw. Keep doing things, keep expanding, and eventually, levels will no longer be that important. You will be too busy helping the new guy, and remembering when you did that quest thinking "why is this sooo ez? I remember getting pwned every five seconds here!" and you will be happy with what you have.





I probably sound like a freaking hippie, but i mean it lol.

no simple as that NO level cap increase i like the lower # all you want is a higher # too look better if you want that go back to diablo 2