Notes for ANET: Analysis of the Attribute Lines

Frank Dudenstein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

I'd like to give some feedback to ANET regarding where we need the most improvment in Class design - specifically balancing the Class Attribute Lines. I, for one, find diversity in playable builds BY FAR the most interesting thing about GW, and I would like to do everything possible to constructively promote further improving balance/diversity of builds.

NOTE: this discussion is based organized eight-man PvP (which is what this game is balanced upon, IMHO). My apologies to the PVEers (now just go make a MM for crying out loud!)

I am rating each Attribute line on a scale of 1 to 5 for usefulness in organized 8-man PvP. 5 = excellent, 3 = average, 1 = aweful, etc.

******Warrior******

Strength = 2; Average (at best) skills and poor inherent effect
Axes = 5; excellent line with lots of useful skills
Hammers = 5; ditto axes
Swords = 5; best weapon line not requiring an elite, also some interesting Factions elites
Tactics = 3; Some decent skills in here

WARRIOR OVERALL = 4.5; Half the backbone of the game. If only a strength warrior were viable....


******Monk******

Divine Favor 5; Good skills and excellent inherent effect
Healing = 5; excellent line with lots of useful skills
Protection = 5; ditto Healing
Smiting = 2; Only a couple of usable skills in any form of the game

MONK OVERALL = 4.5; The other half of the backbone. Now, if only a Smite monk (w/out prot skills) were viable...


******Mesmer******

Fast Casting 4; Poor skills but that's not the point, excellent inherent effect
Domination = 5; Excellent skills
Illusion = 5; ditto Domination
Inspiration = 5; Ditto Domination, Illusion

MESMER OVERALL = 5; Anet's best job on a class IMO


******Elementalist******

Energy Storage 2; Would be an easy 1 without prodigy
Air 3; A few very good skills, the rest below average
Fire: 3; Similar to Air, some very useful HA skills but most are underpowered
Earth 4; Fits its niche very well
Water 2; Another niche attribute, but should be better at doing what it does

ELEMENTALIST OVERALL = 2.5; An average utility class, but with tons of untapped potential... After all the complaints, the factions skills were very disappointing


******Ranger******

Expertise 5; Awesome inherent effect and good skills, what more could you want?
Marksmanship 3; Good weapon attribute, unfortunately most skills are damage based, which is not a Ranger's job
Wilderness Survival: 5; Wide variety of usefuls skills, I like this line alot
Beastmastery 2; Poor pet AI and skillbar-hogging skills make most of this line virtually unusable in PvP. A couple of good niche skills it's only saving grace

RANGER OVERALL = 4; An excellent all-around class.


******Necromancer******

Soul Reaping 4; Good inherent effect, unreliable but that's the point. Could use a couple of linked skills I think
Blood 4; Pretty good selection of skills - damage is weak considering some of the life sacrifice, but I can see where they're going with it
Curses: 4; Good selection of skills
Death 2; MM not viable in PvP, non-MM skills are below-average. I guess this is a PVE line, so I will cut it some slack...

NECROMANCER OVERALL = 3.5; A pretty good job - offers a diffent type of damage, which is a nice touch, though the damage is a little low to be noticable. New Factions skills were mostly disappointing.


******Assassin******

Critical Strikes 3; Good inherent effect, one very strong skill, the rest are average to poor.
Dagger Mastery 2; Combos were a nice idea, but their fragility makes your options extremely limited
Deadly Arts; Is there anything usable in here?
Shadow Arts; If the 'sins only self heal wasn't in here, it would be another dead attribute line

ASSASSIN OVERALL = 1; Only one-two viable builds makes this class extremely disappointing. The fact that they are even more useless in PVE is confounding ... what was the plan for this class? Definitely alot of work needed here.


******Ritualist******

Spawning Power 3; Good inherent effect, but the fact that your main attribute is tied to spirits makes any non-spirit build feel very gimped.
Channeling Magic 1; Yikes. Lower damage than an Air Ele without the utility.
Communing 4; A nice selection of offensive and defensive spirits. Non-spirit skills are weak.
Restoration Magic 1; Heals are average at best, and come with so many weird conditions as to make them virtually unplayable. If Restoration can't keep up with Healing (or offer anything different), then why have it?

RITUALIST OVERALL = 1; The fact that there is only ONE single viable ritualist build should be an eye-opener. Some serious work needed.


**********
CONCLUSION
**********

Anet has done a very nice job with the core 6 classes. (With a couple of minor exceptions - it sure would be nice if a nuker could actually nuke...) But overall, kudos on creating 6 very distinctive clsses that allow for a great diversity of builds.

The two new Factions classes, however, are quite disappointing and need major work. Assassins have basically one viable build, they should have more usable shadow-step options than AoD, and more usable combos.

Ritualists are even worse, Ritual Lord is so much above and beyond any other skill they have it's pathetic. It's effects on GvG have been a major bummer (seeing an enemy Ritualist elicits a collective groan from our entire team ... be prepared for a long boring match...) Then again, if it wasn't for Ritual Lord, the class would be totally unusable. I mean, Soul Twisting is a great skill, but what are you gonna do with the other 4-5 slots on your bar?

As far as the coming of Nightfall, Paragons look very cool. I'm not so high on Dervishes, though. Balancing them for PvE means they will probably be useless in PvP...

Your thoughts?

Ken Dei

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

W/Mo

Give Shadow Arts under the Assassin a 3, and Deadly Arts a 1.

Overall, the Assassin gets a 1.5.

other then that, yeah.

Alleji

Alleji

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

This is rather subjective... especially the "overall class score".

Also, I stopped reading when you didn't give soul reaping a 5.

Effendi Westland

Effendi Westland

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Isle of the dead

[DVDF][LDS]

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleji
This is rather subjective... especially the "overall class score".

Also, I stopped reading when you didn't give soul reaping a 5.
He's talking about it from a PvP point of view, in PvP Soul Reaping is less usefull then in PvE.

topdragon147

topdragon147

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Minnesota

Onslaught of Xen [XoO]

R/

also, chapter specific classes are made to do one thing, so the ratings that you give them correlate with the original purpose of them

SirJackassIII

SirJackassIII

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Belgium

none

N/E

Some flawed math (and I'm assuming the rest is rounded up/down):
Rit:
4+3+1+1 = 9
9/4 = 2.25, not 1
And Restoration isn't that bad, some of the spirits can heal for good amounts. Rits are better protectors then Monks with Rit Lord, but with some of the Restoration spells, they can heal better then a bonder too.
War:
5+5+5+3+2 = 20
20/5 = 4

Sins have a few good builds, and they're pretty good in PvE as well in the hands of someone who doesn't think Sins can tank. Take a Sin to Tyria instead of fighting Afflicted with their AoE on death, or Shiro'ken with Song of the Mists, and you'll notice they'll die a lot less. Warriors have more and better ways to take the damage from those foes, while Sins don't. The Factions PvE is pretty hatefull towards Sins, let alone the players...

Deacon Roswell

Deacon Roswell

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

San Diego

Absence of Evidence [AoE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
The fact that they are even more useless in PVE is confounding ...
You should have kept your topic on the PvP side as you stated because now you just sound ignorant.
Assassins are ONLY useless when used by people who don't spend enough time using that class and looking at the skills, or think an assassin is a tank.

Frank Dudenstein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJackassIII
Some flawed math (and I'm assuming the rest is rounded up/down):
As was earlier stated, my OVERALL score was fairly subjective, considering he overall effect of the class on organized 8-man PvP. For example, when I see a Rit in PvP, I KNOW within one skill EXACTLY what his skillbar is. If the goal is to have diversity of builds/strategy (see top of post), then that's as clear a 1 as you can get. Ditto for the assassin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Today 09:59 AM
Deacon Roswell
You should have kept your topic on the PvP side as you stated because now you just sound ignorant.
Assassins are ONLY useless when used by people who don't spend enough time using that class and looking at the skills, or think an assassin is a tank.
I'm not saying that Assassins cant be effective in PvE. Hell - give me a 10th level necro with 16 Curses and only SS on his bar, and you have an effective PvE char. Bit IMO, if you were forming an elite PvE squad, why would you EVER take an assassin over a warrior?

KamikazeChicken

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
why would you EVER take an assassin over a warrior?
You're still trying to compare apples and oranges.

Ole Man Bourbon

Ole Man Bourbon

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Atlanta

GONG

W/E

I agree in general, except that Assassins and Rts are better than you give them credit for--Eles may be worse, as all they can do is bulk heal and blind, really.

Mithie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Rest En Pieces [RIP]

Me/W

No he's right, really. When have you EVER played against a rit that wasn't your standard rit lord spammer? Or, for the matter, how many assassin builds out there run out without AoD? It's not that these new classes aren't effective, it's just that they're too monotonous - nothing more than one trick ponies.

Zinger314

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

Mesmers are the highest ranking class? And Ritualists are the lowest?

Notice how often each one is used in PvP. Right.

This "analysis" reeks of bias.

Cirian

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

I quite like the Hot Stepper assassin PvP template as an example of what an assassin is about - teleport in, frontload, teleport out. The only real comparison with warriors is that they both hit people over the head with bits of metal. The Critical Barrager A/R is quite a lot of fun, too.

I'll give the class a 2.

The ritualist seems popular for Shelter/Union spammage, so I'm surprised the OP scored it with a 1. The restoration magic is more than healing, it's more like a combined heal/protect line. I will agree some of the conditions for the bonus effects are a bit funky, but some of the heals are solid, let down by the longish recast times compared to the likes of Orison.

The heals with bonus reqs I like are Wielder's Boon (126 point heal for 5e) and Soothing Memories (106 point heal for 2e). Some of the weapon spells are decent - Resilient Weapon grants +6 regen and +24AL for 21s when your target is under hexes or conditions (an easily met req), and Weapon of Shadow is an interesting way of breaking up weapon-based spikes while meeting the req for Wielder's Boon.

I think the biggest let down is the comparative sluggishness of some of the spells. The 2s cast of Weapon of Warding is too long to raise a defence, and recasts of 4s for Wielder's Boon and 5s for Soothing Memories compared with 2s for Orison make them too sluggish to respond to the wounds of various party members.

I'll give the class a 3

I really need to play the classes more though tbh...

Mithie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Rest En Pieces [RIP]

Me/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
Mesmers are the highest ranking class? And Ritualists are the lowest?

Notice how often each one is used in PvP. Right.

This "analysis" reeks of bias.
huh? Sorry I don't understand your argument.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

Frank. Come meet my Assassin M'boy. True, I don't use Shadow or Deadly arts. But still...1?

Red

Red

Rawr!

Join Date: Mar 2006

Kentucky, USA

Team Love [kiSu]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
Mesmers are the highest ranking class? And Ritualists are the lowest?
Notice how often each one is used in PvP. Right.
This "analysis" reeks of bias.
AHEM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank
I, for one, find diversity in playable builds BY FAR the most interesting thing about GW, and I would like to do everything possible to constructively promote further improving balance/diversity of builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank
For example, when I see a Rit in PvP, I KNOW within one skill EXACTLY what his skillbar is. If the goal is to have diversity of builds/strategy (see top of post), then that's as clear a 1 as you can get.
Learn to read, dear.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I dunno that the low ele score is convincing, but yeah... at least, I haven't seen a Non-RitLord or Preservation(?) spirit spamming ritualist yet.

I think I have to disagree on the assassin, though. Like the mesmers, assassin can do all sorts of fun tricks. The only difference is that assassins, in the end, MUST have the final goal of "get in and make hurt with knife!"; while mesmers can have all sorts of different goals.

Yes, I think mesmers deserve a huge score. OMG, the range of builds you can face when playing against a mesmer... meep.

EternalTempest

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

In the radio interview with jeff spain, he mentioned rit/sin are specialized and do one thing well.. vs core classes which are multi-functional.

I can easily see the "week" lines being more for adding functionality of a core class.. Example Monk/Rit.

I do like this comparsion but I personaly would refrain from saying this sucks.. w/o saying why.
But I would do a break down of pvp review and pve review.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

On behalf of elementalists I'd like to add Fire is utter crap except for fireball and rodgort's invocation. Met shower is only useful in pVE...and even then,only for KD since most people dont bring hammer warriors.

And water is far more useful than you portray.

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
If the goal is to have diversity of builds/strategy (see top of post), then that's as clear a 1 as you can get.
Very interesting rationale for your OVERALL rating, but I think that you're mixing diversity of builds with your perception of the VALUE of the class to GvG.

For example, Warriors generally have one function in GvG - damage dealers. That normally comes in the form of a Shock Axe warrior or a Hammer KD warrior, and there isn't a wide deviation from those types normally seen in GvG.

Yet, you give the warrior a 4.5, which totally goes against your "goal" above, since you don't see a lot of diversity in how they are played or their builds.

[Sidenote]Why in the world did you give swordsmanship a "5"? In my experience, it's pretty rare to find a sword warrior in GvG that is as effective as an axe/hammer warrior. Time to rethink that.[/sidenote]

In light of this, you gave Ritualists a "1", even though your gave both Spawning and Communing a 3/4, respectively, which obviously factors in the value of a Ritual Lord to most GvG groups.

Again, some inconsistencies which have been pointed out by others as probably containing a bit of "bias" towards certain classes over others, possibly due to ignorance about how those classes are played and their value to overall GvG teams.

NinjaKai

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

UK

Duality Of The Dragon

Frank while I don't disagree with you. I don't think you explored smiting very well. If you've only tried pure smite then your doing it wrong. Smiting works best when coupled with a secondary class. Like elementalist earth spells for example.

Sakashi

Sakashi

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

United Kingdom

[VII] The Midgar Zolem

E/Mo

I'd say your scoring isn't really too far off here, even if some are a bit biased.
All professions and attributes have some sort of unwritten rating of usefulness whether we like it or not. Alot of which is do with the ongoing metagame.
I'm all for less ineffective skills and attibutes to be made equally viable, giving us a wider range in choice.

Valkyrian

Valkyrian

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

SouL

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Roswell
You should have kept your topic on the PvP side as you stated because now you just sound ignorant.
Assassins are ONLY useless when used by people who don't spend enough time using that class and looking at the skills, or think an assassin is a tank.
In absolute agrreement here... As a core prophecies player, (with a W, Mo, N, and R), I was a little skeptical of getting factions when I heard how "narrow" the new classes were. And the first thing I did with those new slots from factions was to start an assassin. And yes, they ARE frustrating at first because everyone with a tank out there wants to treat them just like a tank, and you can't... But I took time to learn how to allott my skills into critical, dagger, and shadow.
You have to AoD in, get your damage and conditions done, and AoD out. Simple as that! And the reason they aren't made to be tanks is because they deal massive dmg and conditions in a short amount of time. GW=BALANCE, therefor----> assasins<tanks<warriors, and warriors<condition/dmg spiking<assassin.

Mithie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Rest En Pieces [RIP]

Me/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Frank while I don't disagree with you. I don't think you explored smiting very well. If you've only tried pure smite then your doing it wrong. Smiting works best when coupled with a secondary class. Like elementalist earth spells for example.
What? Why? How do you combine smite and earth spells for an effective gvg build?

Frank Dudenstein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
For example, Warriors generally have one function in GvG - damage dealers. That normally comes in the form of a Shock Axe warrior or a Hammer KD warrior, and there isn't a wide deviation from those types normally seen in GvG.
Jetdoc, I agree with you to a point. Because the Deep Wound is so effective (overpowered?) a warrior is pretty much locked into building around Eviscerate/Crushing/Gash. But after that, there's all sorts of diversity/tricks you can add to a warrior build. That's why I think warriors are so well done.

On the other hand, when as the last time you saw a Rit that wasn't RitLord/Boon/Union/Shelter/Displacement/Soothing/xxxx/Res. Or an assassin that wasn't AoD/Golden/Horns/FS/TF/SRefuge/xxx/Res?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
[Sidenote]Why in the world did you give swordsmanship a "5"? In my experience, it's pretty rare to find a sword warrior in GvG that is as effective as an axe/hammer warrior. Time to rethink that.[/sidenote]
Actually, sword wariors are quite common in GvG. Swords is the most effective damage dealing line WITHOUT using your elite slot, so you can do all sorts of neat tricks. Heck I've even seen Expel Hexes and Empathic Removal sword warriors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
In light of this, you gave Ritualists a "1", even though your gave both Spawning and Communing a 3/4, respectively, which obviously factors in the value of a Ritual Lord to most GvG groups.
I'm not saying Ritualists aren't effective. Quite the contrary, any top guild will tell you that RitLords are OVERPOWERED in GvG. I gave them a one because they have 75 skills (or so) and exactly one effective build.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
On behalf of elementalists I'd like to add Fire is utter crap except for fireball and rodgort's invocation. Met shower is only useful in pVE...and even then,only for KD since most people dont bring hammer warriors.
Actually, Flame Burst and Starburst are fine skills for HA. Even Meteor Shower or Bed of Coals can be useful Ward/Altar clearers. However for GvG you are right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalTempest
In the radio interview with jeff spain, he mentioned rit/sin are specialized and do one thing well.. vs core classes which are multi-functional.
I never heard that, but to me that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. I mean, Rits are obviously meant to spam spirits (hence their primary attribute). But if so, why do they have 2 ENTIRE ATTRIBUTE LINES that are COMPLETELY devoid of useful skills? (ok, Recuperation can be handy .... but a 12 point investment for one skill???)

If this was the case, they should've just given Rits Communing and Spawning Power and saved alot of time and effort designing/testing 2 entire lines of skills.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirian
The restoration magic is more than healing, it's more like a combined heal/protect line. I will agree some of the conditions for the bonus effects are a bit funky, but some of the heals are solid, let down by the longish recast times compared to the likes of Orison.
Your sort of made my point for me ... a Restoration Rit is so inferior to a regular Monk that you'd be a fool to bring one. I think the Restoration line is a fine IDEA (combining heals + weapon spells), but it needs to be effective enough to justify a spot on the team...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Roswell
You should have kept your topic on the PvP side as you stated because now you just sound ignorant. Assassins are ONLY useless when used by people who don't spend enough time using that class and looking at the skills, or think an assassin is a tank.
I will admit I AM ignorant about high-end PvE, as I have only done FoW twice, UW once, and never even been to the new elite missions. However, I did take two PvE characters through all of Tyria and Cantha, and for the regular miisions/quests, SS + MM + Tank + Monk seemed BY FAR the most effective template to me. I'm not sure why I would want an assassin (or a mesmer for that matter).... But then again, I AM a PvE noob, I admit it, and I meant this to be a PvP discussion, so lets not turn this into a PvE flamefest


Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Frank while I don't disagree with you. I don't think you explored smiting very well. If you've only tried pure smite then your doing it wrong. Smiting works best when coupled with a secondary class. Like elementalist earth spells for example.
Ok, I'll admit it ... I am TOTALLY mising the Earth + Smiting build... can you elaborate?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleji
Also, I stopped reading when you didn't give soul reaping a 5.
Actually, I thought I was being generous with a 4. Here is the problem with Soul Reaping: if you are winning big, then you get a nice boost, but who cares. And if you are losing big, you get a nice boost, but it probably won't matter. However, it's when you need it the most, in those tight battles where you can't seem to get a kill, that Soul Reaping lets you down. And if you designed your build with that energy income in mind, then that right there might be the breaking point.

Which is not to say Soul Reaping is bad, it's just not reliable, so you can't design your build around it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
Mesmers are the highest ranking class? And Ritualists are the lowest?

Notice how often each one is used in PvP. Right.

This "analysis" reeks of bias.
If by biased, you mean that I prefer classes that have tons of cool skills, challenge your originality in build design, are extremely effective if played well, but ineffective if not, etc etc etc, then YES, I AM biased. Especially when compared to classes that have one effective build, take zero skill to play, are mind-numbingly boring, and make GvG matches into 45 minute grindfests (not mentioning any names tho .... cough.RIT.cough)

I think that one is a no-brainer...


Thanks all for all the feedback!

Glasswalker

Glasswalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Northwest Ascalon

Freedom

N/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Jetdoc, I agree with you to a point. Because the Deep Wound is so effective (overpowered?) a warrior is pretty much locked into building around Eviscerate/Crushing/Gash. But after that, there's all sorts of diversity/tricks you can add to a warrior build. That's why I think warriors are so well done.

On the other hand, when as the last time you saw a Rit that wasn't RitLord/Boon/Union/Shelter/Displacement/Soothing/xxxx/Res. Or an assassin that wasn't AoD/Golden/Horns/FS/TF/SRefuge/xxx/Res?
Well, for starters, my Rit and my Assassin. I run 2 PvP effective Sin builds, and looking at your list, the only skills I carry are xxx and Res. And yes, there are DA skills of some great use - but only for those that put builds together themselves, not those who read forums and attempt to follow instructions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
I'm not saying Ritualists aren't effective. Quite the contrary, any top guild will tell you that RitLords are OVERPOWERED in GvG. I gave them a one because they have 75 skills (or so) and exactly one effective build.
Now see, here's where people begin to think you are biased. There are many people viewing this who don't play that 1 build, and you are saying they are ineffective. Perhaps a bit of background would help us out. Did you personally spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing through multiple combinations of skills? Have you come up with and then rejected (through PvP action) many builds, and eventually ended up with this one? Without that kind of information, a casual reader might assume that you were either ignorant or biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Actually, Flame Burst and Starburst are fine skills for HA. Even Meteor Shower or Bed of Coals can be useful Ward/Altar clearers. However for GvG you are right.
Thank you for acknowledging that there is more to PvP than GvG. I do wish that when people meant GvG they said GvG. I play a lot of PvP, but rarely GvG because of the size and activity level of my Guild. Your calculations make a lot more sense when limited to this one aspect of play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
I never heard that, but to me that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. I mean, Rits are obviously meant to spam spirits (hence their primary attribute). But if so, why do they have 2 ENTIRE ATTRIBUTE LINES that are COMPLETELY devoid of useful skills? (ok, Recuperation can be handy .... but a 12 point investment for one skill???)

If this was the case, they should've just given Rits Communing and Spawning Power and saved alot of time and effort designing/testing 2 entire lines of skills.
Not that this answer is definitive, but how about because you can play a Rit secondary? For the record, you can play a Restoration Rit effectively. A Rit with Shelter (yes, I know it's not Restoration although I've never figured out why) and Spirit Light is anti-spike. Spike builds can occasionally recover faster that SL, but that's only 2 skills. Mend Body and Soul is a non-Elite Restore Condition and a mid-grade backup heal. If you have Recuperation and Shelter up, that's a pretty good chance of removing that 'overpowered' Deep Wound even with a cover. Flesh of My Flesh is the fastest reusable Res in the game.

Am I saying that you shouldn't bring Monks anymore? No, but a Rit can have a place without RL, and with a Restoration Rit, you can do without 1, or /Ri could make a good Secondary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Your sort of made my point for me ... a Restoration Rit is so inferior to a regular Monk that you'd be a fool to bring one. I think the Restoration line is a fine IDEA (combining heals + weapon spells), but it needs to be effective enough to justify a spot on the team...
To add to what I say above, I would certainly not complain if they made the Restoration spells recharge faster or cast quicker... But I'd say if you bring a Rit and try to play it like a Monk, then your point is entirely valid. But a Rit isn't a monk, and I don't think it's inferior -- just different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
I will admit I AM ignorant about high-end PvE, as I have only done FoW twice, UW once, and never even been to the new elite missions. However, I did take two PvE characters through all of Tyria and Cantha, and for the regular miisions/quests, SS + MM + Tank + Monk seemed BY FAR the most effective template to me. I'm not sure why I would want an assassin (or a mesmer for that matter).... But then again, I AM a PvE noob, I admit it, and I meant this to be a PvP discussion, so lets not turn this into a PvE flamefest
I hope my comments aren't taken as Flames or Flamebait. MMs take bodies to get to full effectiveness. My Assassin leaves bodies in his wake like nobody's business. See the synergy? Once the MM gets started, you have your disposable tank. SS is still awesome, and yup, you need a Monk or two, but a properly built and skillfully played Assassin rocks in PvE. The template you mention above will certainly work, but I play this game because it's fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Ok, I'll admit it ... I am TOTALLY mising the Earth + Smiting build... can you elaborate?
Um... I'm at a loss here... It sounds like fun...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Actually, I thought I was being generous with a 4. Here is the problem with Soul Reaping: if you are winning big, then you get a nice boost, but who cares. And if you are losing big, you get a nice boost, but it probably won't matter. However, it's when you need it the most, in those tight battles where you can't seem to get a kill, that Soul Reaping lets you down. And if you designed your build with that energy income in mind, then that right there might be the breaking point.

Which is not to say Soul Reaping is bad, it's just not reliable, so you can't design your build around it...
Meh. Pets and Spirits and Minions and NPCs fill this gap pretty well. It always bothered me that there were no (and then no useful) skills attached to this attribute I was spending so many points on, but it was always still worth every point spent. The fact that I can half fill my energy bar while I'm healing myself with one Taste of Death is worth the whole expendature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
If by biased, you mean that I prefer classes that have tons of cool skills, challenge your originality in build design, are extremely effective if played well, but ineffective if not, etc etc etc, then YES, I AM biased. Especially when compared to classes that have one effective build, take zero skill to play, are mind-numbingly boring, and make GvG matches into 45 minute grindfests (not mentioning any names tho .... cough.RIT.cough)

I think that one is a no-brainer...
I think that bias appellation is coming from statements like "challenge your originality in build design" conflicting with statements like "but that's not your job" (Rangers doing damage). You have painted a nice little limiting box and said you want to have more options within those self-imposed limits.

I don't think anyone would say you are being unfair to RL Rits. But you are most certainly being unfair to all other Rits. I think you've done the same to Sins. Your comments about Smite Monks (without PP) sounds similar. I'd love to see that Attribute Point distribution:
DF : 0
HP : 0
PP : 0
SP : 16
Leftover points: 151
I can imagine that [i]would[/] be ineffective, yes.

The fact that you don't see that is exactly what is meant by bias. Your post shows a decent intelligence. There are 75 skills. Play with them a bit -- I think you can do better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Thanks all for all the feedback!
Anytime!

jciardha

jciardha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

International Districts

The Labyrinth of Night [LoN]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein
Ok, I'll admit it ... I am TOTALLY mising the Earth + Smiting build... can you elaborate?
I'm not sure where NinjaKai got that either, but I have run an E/Mo Shield of Judgement + Aftershock build. Wasn't too shabby either.

ZomgZergRush

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Altrumm Ruins :o

Swarm of the Zerg [ZERG]

Rt/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetdoc
[Sidenote]Why in the world did you give swordsmanship a "5"? In my experience, it's pretty rare to find a sword warrior in GvG that is as effective as an axe/hammer warrior. Time to rethink that.[/sidenote]
Sword warriors often use Bulls Charge because swords don't need an elite to be effective.