Recently, well, for the last few months really, I've been noticing a plethora of critical barrage A/R's in all the Canthan mission outposts.
Personally, I'm not at all convinced of it's usefulness when compared with other professions. I'm not arguing that it isn't better in most hands than other assassin builds. A bad tanking assassin drags down the whole party by overburdening the team's monks. A critical barrager, on the other hands, remains in the back, putting less stress on his team's healers, while liberally spreading around barrage damage and conditions.
He can be useful when there's nobody else available.
However, there usually is somebody else available: and generally, I'll take an ele, necro, extra warrior, monk, or anything over the critical barrage assassin. It's just logical.
Consider the following:
1) A critical barrager is a damage dealer almost exclusively. He may have some interrupts but, his main function is to deal damage. He doesn't heal the party, he has no team buffs, or debuffs, and he doesn't tank. All he does is deal damage.
2) Because the critical barrage assassin is a ranged damage dealer exclusively, his potential contribution to a team's success can be evaluated very simply by comparing his damage output against that of other ranged damage dealers available for any particular mission.
Say you have to decide between an SS necro and a crit barrage for the last space in your group. Well this is a very easy choice to make. Whichever one does more damage is the one you want.
However, when I really started to think about it, I began to relaize that there isn't any profession that specializes in doing ranged damage that can't vastly outperform the crit barrager in cranking out damage on multiple enemies. E/Me, E/Mo, R/N, R/Rt, N/R, N/E...whatever else you want to insert, they unload a ton of damage, often armour ignoring. Also, all of these popular combinations have their own methods of energy management, and these tend to be somewhat better than the assassin's meager energy gain on a critical in. And finally, since the crit barrage lacks any versatility, I can't help but feel that this is a very inferior build.
Critical barrager - no thanks
easyg
Scourgey
Mass bleeding is pretty nice, it's -3 degen, also bare in mind critical hits occur more often then with barrage rangers too, as critical strikes primary att increases it by a flat rate, it means against higher level creatures it is more likely to be a critical than a typical barrage ranger.
There isn't an increase attack speed boost, leaving it worse off compared to a barrage ranger groups with order of pain, but I think it's pretty good, able to deal damage and inflict conditions putting extra strain on the enemy monks
Put it this way, an assassin barrager is better vs higher armour targets than a typical barrage ranger due to bleeding. The damage is AOE, not all ranged builds are aoe damage.
There isn't an increase attack speed boost, leaving it worse off compared to a barrage ranger groups with order of pain, but I think it's pretty good, able to deal damage and inflict conditions putting extra strain on the enemy monks
Put it this way, an assassin barrager is better vs higher armour targets than a typical barrage ranger due to bleeding. The damage is AOE, not all ranged builds are aoe damage.
easyg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scourgey
The damage is AOE, not all ranged builds are aoe damage.
That's true. But a lot of builds are AOE, and a few are armour ignoring too. Just one example:
If a player is totally in love with the bow, why shouldn't he make a N/R instead of an A/R? With 15 Curses and 0 Marksmanship, this guy can follow Mark of Pain with Dual Shot for 80 points of armor ignoring shadow damage to all adjacent foes. That's pretty impressive damage, especially on mobs of high AL enemies. His Spiteful will last 20 seconds and do 35 shadow damage to adjacents. If he has a icy bowstring and Spinal Shivers, he'll be as good an interrupter as anyone will prolly need. Plus he can Rend Enchantments and do a lot of other stuff to make life miserable (and short) for enemy mobs.
Btw, don't get me wrong. I think the assassin is pretty cool and fun to play. I just don't think that he's a better ranged damage dealer than other professions.
If a player is totally in love with the bow, why shouldn't he make a N/R instead of an A/R? With 15 Curses and 0 Marksmanship, this guy can follow Mark of Pain with Dual Shot for 80 points of armor ignoring shadow damage to all adjacent foes. That's pretty impressive damage, especially on mobs of high AL enemies. His Spiteful will last 20 seconds and do 35 shadow damage to adjacents. If he has a icy bowstring and Spinal Shivers, he'll be as good an interrupter as anyone will prolly need. Plus he can Rend Enchantments and do a lot of other stuff to make life miserable (and short) for enemy mobs.
Btw, don't get me wrong. I think the assassin is pretty cool and fun to play. I just don't think that he's a better ranged damage dealer than other professions.
Evilsod
Becuase if he went N/R to use Mark of Pain and a bow... he'd be an idiot. Scattering of agro should be left to Cynn and her Firestorm. Mark of Pain can just as easily be called onto a target to let an Assassin w/ Locusts Fury + Flurry to double strike the crap out of it.
Silver_Fang
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyg
That's true. But a lot of builds are AOE, and a few are armour ignoring too. Just one example:
If a player is totally in love with the bow, why shouldn't he make a N/R instead of an A/R? With 15 Curses and 0 Marksmanship, this guy can follow Mark of Pain with Dual Shot for 80 points of armor ignoring shadow damage to all adjacent foes. That's pretty impressive damage, especially on mobs of high AL enemies. His Spiteful will last 20 seconds and do 35 shadow damage to adjacents. If he has a icy bowstring and Spinal Shivers, he'll be as good an interrupter as anyone will prolly need. Plus he can Rend Enchantments and do a lot of other stuff to make life miserable (and short) for enemy mobs.
Btw, don't get me wrong. I think the assassin is pretty cool and fun to play. I just don't think that he's a better ranged damage dealer than other professions. A necro sure can do all of those, but at the same time? i doubt it.
The main selling point of critical barrager is the crit chance and spreading the bleed condition, as well as occasional interupt.
Because of the critical attribute, they have a much higher chance of making a crit shot.
If a player is totally in love with the bow, why shouldn't he make a N/R instead of an A/R? With 15 Curses and 0 Marksmanship, this guy can follow Mark of Pain with Dual Shot for 80 points of armor ignoring shadow damage to all adjacent foes. That's pretty impressive damage, especially on mobs of high AL enemies. His Spiteful will last 20 seconds and do 35 shadow damage to adjacents. If he has a icy bowstring and Spinal Shivers, he'll be as good an interrupter as anyone will prolly need. Plus he can Rend Enchantments and do a lot of other stuff to make life miserable (and short) for enemy mobs.
Btw, don't get me wrong. I think the assassin is pretty cool and fun to play. I just don't think that he's a better ranged damage dealer than other professions. A necro sure can do all of those, but at the same time? i doubt it.
The main selling point of critical barrager is the crit chance and spreading the bleed condition, as well as occasional interupt.
Because of the critical attribute, they have a much higher chance of making a crit shot.
moriz
also, they have built in e-management with critical strikes. basically, they'll never run out of energy if there are targets to shoot at.
Yanman.be
I just made a crit barrager. Not too impressed. Prefer my daggers. But still, works like a charm.
Hollerith
They're great consistent AoE damage.
My pve A/R fared very poorly against single targets, since I'm more prone to running out of energy, and damage is very poor without lots of energy investment. But really can't complain about the damage output when there's tons of mobs around.
Also, an SS N is the most damaging aoe build in pve hands down. They'd be given priority over pretty much any other pure-damage class (non-utility classes excluded).
My pve A/R fared very poorly against single targets, since I'm more prone to running out of energy, and damage is very poor without lots of energy investment. But really can't complain about the damage output when there's tons of mobs around.
Also, an SS N is the most damaging aoe build in pve hands down. They'd be given priority over pretty much any other pure-damage class (non-utility classes excluded).
easyg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollerith
Also, an SS N is the most damaging aoe build in pve hands down. They'd be given priority over pretty much any other pure-damage class (non-utility classes excluded).
Oh yeah, SS Necro, especially N/Me with arcane echo, is the champ for pure damage.
But even a regular ol' echo nuke is preferrable to an crit barrager methinks.
And in the long run, won't even a R/E fire barrage ranger do more damage than a crit barrager?
But even a regular ol' echo nuke is preferrable to an crit barrager methinks.
And in the long run, won't even a R/E fire barrage ranger do more damage than a crit barrager?
wilebill
All good points made above. There are better damage dealers than a Critical Barrage Assassin. The reason I played it was twofold. First, getting into PUGs to finish the game was much easier. Second, solo henching quests is much easier, IMHO, as an Archer than as a dagger wielder. That being said, my Ranger is a much better Ranger!
What remains useful advice to all assassins who intend to use henchmen for PvE is to carry a simple no-attrib longbow for pulling, and for standing safely at range while the henchmen aggro the mob.
Out alone with the henchmen, it is also possible to combine with the no attrib or low attrib longbow a pet in a mini-beastmaster build, using Assassin's Promise to recharge skills and get an energy boost. This is not as good as Ranger expertise, but it is a fair approximation.
Clearly, daggers are the Assassin's primary weapon. That is what the class was designed for.
What remains useful advice to all assassins who intend to use henchmen for PvE is to carry a simple no-attrib longbow for pulling, and for standing safely at range while the henchmen aggro the mob.
Out alone with the henchmen, it is also possible to combine with the no attrib or low attrib longbow a pet in a mini-beastmaster build, using Assassin's Promise to recharge skills and get an energy boost. This is not as good as Ranger expertise, but it is a fair approximation.
Clearly, daggers are the Assassin's primary weapon. That is what the class was designed for.
Cherno
It really is kind of silly comparing a critical barrager to any other class than a ranger. In your first post talk about taking an ele or ss or warrior over them. Well hell, the same can be said about any profession. Do a comparison of the role being played not other professions, otherwise you are just making a "assassins aren't as useful as x" thread. Because in your post you could probably just replace the word assassin everywhere with ranger and post this in the ranger forum.
Now the real question should be "Why should I take a critical barrager over a barraging ranger"
Now the real question should be "Why should I take a critical barrager over a barraging ranger"
Magnum Delux
Ok, IMO and from my testing of both Ranger and Assassin Barrage builds I have concluded that my sin with 12 marks and 15-16 crits does a almost constant 2x the damage that my Ranger does with 15 marks. And that isnt factoring in the bleeding.
But that really is about all the sin is good for when using a bow. His other attacks are about equal to a ranger but w/o expertise you just cant keep your energy up enough to do what a ranger can.
And who says sins cant interrupt? Your interrupts wont do much damage, but who cares they still do their job.
And the real sad part is how hard it is to get a group for ne mission with any Assassin build. And a Ranger with the same skills and less damage is ALWAYS going to be first choice over a Crit/Barrager.
So to anyone thinking of going with this build it can be VERY rewarding......if you can get into a group.
But that really is about all the sin is good for when using a bow. His other attacks are about equal to a ranger but w/o expertise you just cant keep your energy up enough to do what a ranger can.
And who says sins cant interrupt? Your interrupts wont do much damage, but who cares they still do their job.
And the real sad part is how hard it is to get a group for ne mission with any Assassin build. And a Ranger with the same skills and less damage is ALWAYS going to be first choice over a Crit/Barrager.
So to anyone thinking of going with this build it can be VERY rewarding......if you can get into a group.
Celab
Use a zealous string and w00t for energy.
Magnum Delux
I use a customized Vamp 15^ flatbow, Energy is not a problem if you using critical eye and have more than one target. However my short bow is zealous.
And again im not saying that a sin is a better ranger than a ranger, just a better barrager.
And again im not saying that a sin is a better ranger than a ranger, just a better barrager.
easyg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Delux
Ok, IMO and from my testing of both Ranger and Assassin Barrage builds I have concluded that my sin with 12 marks and 15-16 crits does a almost constant 2x the damage that my Ranger does with 15 marks. And that isnt factoring in the bleeding.
That's interesting. But you are comparing an A/R whose primary is synergizing with his secondary to a Ranger primary without any synergy with his secondary profession. There are a lot of ways to bump up bow damage that aren't preparations that a Ranger primary can use.
I thought, but perhaps I'm wrong, that a critical hit did the max damage for the weapon (i.e. 28) x approximately 1.41. Without looking at armor, wouldn't that be about 39 hitpoints of raw damage (or whatever it's called)?
With 15 in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye on, your chance of landing a critical hit is + 15% + 6% (or +21%). So roughly one in five.
If there's a mob of 5 creatures, you will on the average score 1 extra critical hit...doing 39 on that hit instead of the medium damage of 21.5 for a bow. So +18 damage roughly speaking.
Is that really going to be more damage than a fire barrager ranger with 10 in Fire Magic? Conjure flame gives +11 fire damage on all five monsters or +55 (again not factoring in the armor).
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this favor the R/E by quite a bit? I didn't factor in the armor cause it's too many variables and I'm still at work, but anyways.....
I thought, but perhaps I'm wrong, that a critical hit did the max damage for the weapon (i.e. 28) x approximately 1.41. Without looking at armor, wouldn't that be about 39 hitpoints of raw damage (or whatever it's called)?
With 15 in Critical Strikes and Critical Eye on, your chance of landing a critical hit is + 15% + 6% (or +21%). So roughly one in five.
If there's a mob of 5 creatures, you will on the average score 1 extra critical hit...doing 39 on that hit instead of the medium damage of 21.5 for a bow. So +18 damage roughly speaking.
Is that really going to be more damage than a fire barrager ranger with 10 in Fire Magic? Conjure flame gives +11 fire damage on all five monsters or +55 (again not factoring in the armor).
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this favor the R/E by quite a bit? I didn't factor in the armor cause it's too many variables and I'm still at work, but anyways.....
Magnum Delux
Im sure it does favor the ranger for a conjure build, but I only tested it with standard bows. Plus some things dont take that elemental damge as well as others, but they all take criticals the same. Again not to mention the -3 from bleeding.
vapor311
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyg
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by easyg
Is that really going to be more damage than a fire barrager ranger with 10 in Fire Magic? Conjure flame gives +11 fire damage on all five monsters or +55 (again not factoring in the armor).
Compare it this way. Let's say an engagement lasts 15 seconds. A target bleeding for 15 seconds takes an additional 90 armor ignoring damage (-3 degen x 2 life per second/pip of degen x 15 seconds). Consider with each barrage in your previous example of 5 enemies, 2 of those will begin bleeding.
In my opinion a better comparison would be vs. a R/Mo using Judge's Insight. The bonus damage from the armor penetration + lack of resistance to holy damage make an Insight barrager more damaging than the R/E. That is neither here nor there and the topic of another discussion. The main point that we're looking at here is whether the Critical Barrager (A/R) is a valuable damage asset to have in your team. In my opinion it is. Without trying to make the topic into a giant peeing contest of what profession does the most damage it is suffice to say that the Critical Barrager should not be overlooked.
Amy Awien
Why leave it at a meaningless number - 72% higher chance of scoring a critical hit - and not take it all the way if you've calculated the critical hit chance
Ok, for the assasin the chance of getting a critical hit is PCa = 39.4% and for the ranger it is PCr = 22.9%. Both can use a max damage 15-28 +15% customized +20% bow (not a horn bow). At 12 marks this does 21.5*1.15*1.2 = 30 damage on average, at 16 marks this is 21.5*1.15*1.2*1.15 = 34 damage on average. A critical hit scores max damage at -20EAL, or 1.41 times the damage. For the sin this becomes: 28*1.15*1.2*1.41 = 54, the ranger scores 28*1.15*1.2*1.41*1.15=63. The assasin scores a critical 39.4* of the time, the total base arrowdamage then is (39.4*54 + 60.6*30) / 100 = 39.5 The ranger scores a critical 22.9% of the time, the total base arrowdamage then is (22.9*63 + 77.1*34) / 100= 40.6 That is pretty close, close enough for rounding errors to play a significant role. Barrage adds some damage too, at 12 marks this is 13 damage, and 17 damage at 16 marks. Otoh, the Assasin has a good chance to inflict Bleeding, 6 HP/sec, similar to a Conjure X damage bonus. The ranger has some attribute points left (for WS or a Conjure X), while the assasin has invested 12 points in marks and in critical hits, but Way of Perfection could mean a lot of selfhealing. Note: If you'd want to be precise, rounding becomes tricky. I've used the average between 15-28 = 21.5 and multiplied that. However, the game rolls a number in the range 15-28, multiplies that with the bonusses and modifiers and rounds that to the nearest integer. For each of the sperate rolls this should be calculated and the averaged.
vapor311
Thanks for doing the additional math Amy. I fully admit I was looking at the figures for damage calculation and I was kinda overwhelmed. I figured making the point about how the damage between the two was similar enough would be sufficient evidence to show that Critical Barragers were viable damage dealers, compared to regular Barrage rangers.
While the Critical Barrager has invested virtually all of his attribute points in Critical Strikes and Marksmanship he doesn't lose alot of utility. He can still use ranger interrupts effectively, self heal with Shadow Refuge and Way of Perfection, and use Critical Defenses and Caltrops to get himself or teamates out of a jam. easyg
Actually, what Amy's numbers show is the that a A/R crit barrager will do less damage than a R/*. It's kinda burried in her discussion but after showing that the "base arrow damage" for both professions is roughly the same, Amy adds:
Quote:
Barrage adds some damage too, at 12 marks this is 13 damage, and 17 damage at 16 marks
Can the extra damage from the skill barrage be added to the base arrow damage? If so: | Critical Barrage: 39.5 + 12 = 51.5 Barrage Ranger: 40.6 + 17 = 57.6 That's signifcant right? Especially considering Barrage's AOE, which compounds any advantage in damage by the number of enemies struck. I guess the point of this all is to say that a Crit Barrager isn't totally useless, but it hardly answers the question why someone would want one over a solid Ranger primary build. Celab
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyg
Actually, what Amy's numbers show is the that a A/R crit barrager will do less damage than a R/*. It's kinda burried in her discussion but after showing that the "base arrow damage" for both professions is roughly the same, Amy adds:
Can the extra damage from the skill barrage be added to the base arrow damage? If so: Critical Barrage: 39.5 + 12 = 51.5 Barrage Ranger: 40.6 + 17 = 57.6 That's signifcant right? Especially considering Barrage's AOE, which compounds any advantage in damage by the number of enemies struck. I guess the point of this all is to say that a Crit Barrager isn't totally useless, but it hardly answers the question why someone would want one over a solid Ranger primary build. If you add the 6 DPS aswell from bleeding... they are almost exactly the same, and in the long run the assassin will do more because it has 6 extra damage ignoring damage, not al modified damage. Whirling Wanda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celab
If you add the 6 DPS aswell from bleeding... they are almost exactly the same, and in the long run the assassin will do more because it has 6 extra damage ignoring damage, not al modified damage.
No...no...no...no....
Actually, Amy said that the bleeding and the conjure damage basically cancel each other out, which would leave the Ranger still ahead. Personally, I don't see how there's much of a much of an argument that the Crit Barrage Assasin is a better barrager than a good Ranger barrage build. I don't even think the Ranger with Conjure X is the best Ranger barrage build. My R/W with Barrage + Frenzy outdamages A/R and R/E by a ridiculous amt and has great energy management with so much points left to go in Expertise. Assasin is a great profession with unique skills that no other profession has. Why would NE1 want the assasin to be a second-rate Ranger instead of a first-rate assasin? Please tell me. I look at the Crit Barrage assasin as a good profession only for assasins who hasn't learned how ot unleash the real power of daggers. In other words, good for noob assasin but a true master uses daggers. Silk Weaver
First rate assassins are about as rare as monks. Times two. Crit barrager, as it turns out, isn't bad. In PvE, anything that isn't bad is good enough. If you want a really good team, ask guildies and friends. From the calculations, the difference doesn't seem large enough to be a big issues, even if you're trying a difficult mission or masters.
Yanman.be
It's the same issue.. Why customize weapons in pve? Why ignore the crit barrager if you have trouble finding another player?
Lambentviper
I would take a Crit Barrager over other rangers and nuker due to the fact that they high have armor ignoring AoE that DOESNT SPREAD THE AGGRO. which leads to tanks over extending, and getting blindly ganked while monks have to chase down their targets of healing.
And even as the party caller calls a target, and even with the CritBarrager attacking that target, he spread damage and constant DPS to other targets as well, allowing the group to move on to the next target and have it already be losing health. THis works much in the same way as EoE did before the nerf. The idea is to get past the aggro faster, by dealing with weakened enemies, which clears an easy path for a Masters Reward. Your only trouble comes when the guys your fighting cannot bleed XD QUOTE FROM WHIRLING WANDA:: "I don't even think the Ranger with Conjure X is the best Ranger barrage build. My R/W with Barrage + Frenzy outdamages A/R and R/E by a ridiculous amt and has great energy management with so much points left to go in Expertise." Correct me if im wrong, but using frenzy doesnt let you activate barrage any faster? but i may be wrong now that i see my thoughts in words 0.o easyg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambentviper
Correct me if im wrong, but using frenzy doesnt let you activate barrage any faster? but i may be wrong now that i see my thoughts in words 0.o
Eh, I was curious to see if this really worked so I tried it out with a PvP only char against the practice dummies. After checking out the results (and reading around the forums) apparently the idea is this: if you take a fast bow (flatbow) and activate frenzy, while the barrage doesnt reset any faster, you can just get off an extra auto-attack in between barrage attacks. In other words:
Barrage - attack - barrage - attack - barrage vs Barrage - barrage - barrage Someone...Superbinnie actually...posted a build in the Ranger forum. P.S. Not a build for lazy button mashers, so right there it's unsuitable for 99 percent of barragers, whether Assassin or Ranger primary. And yes, I include myself among the lazy majority.
Amy Awien
What I've read is that bow refire rate may still 'hold back' Barrage, ie, a flatbow will barrage at a faster rate then a longbow. A longbow with Frenzy would have a faster barrage refire then a longbow without frenzy.
Frankly, I wonder if a Critical Barrager would be an interesting character to play at all. Hit and run tactics sound like a lot more fun then playing the GW version of Painless. Whirling Wanda
Amy is right again, just like she was in her first post.
Bow rate of fire is slow (2 sec+) compared with other weapons. But the skill recharge for Barrage is set at only 1 sec. The bow's rate of attack "holds back" barrage just like Amy said. Frenzy doesn't make Barrage reset faster...instead it speeds up the bow's base rate of attack bringing it more in line with barrage's reset time for a massive increase in DPS. If anyone thinks -3 bleeding makes up for this, you're sadly mistaken. Frenzy is also very energy efficient, since it is effected by Expertise energy attribute. This brings up another reason Crit Barrage sux. You're energy management compared with the Ranger primary is awful. If you fight a big mob (3 +) you are okay, but against small mob your energy will run out fast. Ranger skills have high cost, esp. some interrupts are ridiculously high. But even barrage will drain your A/R if you don't fight big mobs all the time. R/W doesn't have to worry because of Expertise attribute. At 13 expertise: barrage costs 2 energy to use; frenzy costs 2 energy to use, and mob size doesn't matter. You can't make the R/W run out of energy even if you try. 1 boss standing in front of you. No problem. Frenzy + Barrage still does the job. I saw some guys saying they use zealous bowstring to counteract A/R energy problem, but since the only bow mod that makes sense is -5/1 vampiric then your A/R build suxs already. This is why I don't like the conjure build -- has to use fire/lightning/cold bowstring. 5/1 vampiric is the best mob in the game - not just the best bow mod, but the best mod period. If your barrager isn't using one, he's already gimped. A/R Crit Barrager, your build sux. Get rid of it please. Try Yanman's shock build, this is great for PvE. Stop being a crappy secondclass Ranger. Don't listen to the propaganda. Daggers and combos are excellent. Learn how to use them and stop trying to be the Ranger's weak little sister.
Tyggen
I did some checking using numbers from guildwiki and came to the conclution that a A/R cb will do pretty much the same damage as a R/x barrager over 100 arrows. This calculation was made assuming the ranger has 16 marksmanship and the assassin has 16 critical and 12 marksmanship.
The assassin gets a total of 40% critical strike (7% from critical eye, 16% from critical strike and 17% from marksmanship), the ranger gets 23% critical from marksmanship. This is also assuming a critical strike does double base damage (the damage from barrage isn't doubled). A Critical Barrager would do: 2100 - 3920 +13 per arrow = 3400 - 5220 A Barrager would do: 1845 - 3444 +17 per arrow = 3545 - 5144 The damage difference is minimal at best, though slightly in favour of the ranger. Advantage goes to the ranger though, it can boost damage to its attacks by using skills like Brutal Weapon. Personally I prefer the CB over the barrager though, it can keep itself healed by using Way of Perfection and evade most attacks using Critical Defenses. Whirling Wanda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyggen
The assassin gets a total of 40% critical strike (7% from critical eye, 16% from critical strike and 17% from marksmanship), the ranger gets 23% critical from marksmanship. This is also assuming a critical strike does double base damage (the damage from barrage isn't doubled).
A critical hit actually doesn't do double base damage. Or more accurately, it only does double the base damage when the attacker has a weapon attribute skill of 16. Then the combined effect of the critical hit (+20 Bonus DL) and Weapon Skill 16 (skill*5=80 Base Damage Level) does indeed boost the attacker's overall Effective Damage Level to 100: the point at which the "rolled" damage from a weapon is doubled against 60AL armor.
The thing to keep in mind is that the effect of 16 marksmanship vs 12 marksmanship is a +20 point jump in Effective Damage Level. That's exactly the same as the default bonus of +20 for a critical hit. In other words, a 16 Mark Ranger is EffDL 80 on a non-critical and EffDL 100 on a critical hit; vs. the 12 Mark Assassin who is EffDL 60 on a non-critical and EffDL 80 on a critical. If that was all there is to it, then the Crit Barrage would obviously suck in comparion to the Barrage Ranger. However, EffDL isn't the final determining factor in the GW's damage calc. To see how EffDL impacts damage output for both professions, we need some "rolled" damage. The game rolls a random number for the bow anywhere from 15-28. For the sake of this damage comparison, we are going to say the roll is 21.5 (which is the average roll for a bow). Now factoring everything together, on a hit which isn't a critical hit the damage breakdown is: 16 marksmanship vs. 60 AL --> effective damage = 30.41 12 marksmanship vs. 60 AL --> effective damage = 21.50 Note: with 12 Marks vs. 60 AL, the average Effective Damage (non-critical) is exactly equal to the average "rolled damage" (or "raw damage" in the parlance of damage calc). This is absolutely as it should be since the attacker's Effective Damage Level of 60 (12 points in Mark*5) is the same as the defender's Effective Armor Level of 60. On a critical hit, the damage roll defaults to 28 (max damage for bow). Again, keep in mind what a critical hit does to the EffDL. It add +20. So, taking everything all together, this works out to: 16 marksmanship vs 60 AL --> effective damage = 56.00 12 marksmanship vs 60 AL --> effective damage = 39.60 See how the damage roll of 28 is only doubled (28*2) with 16 Marks? Again, we know that this is accurate because 16*5+20=100 EffDL, that being the magic number where Raw Damage vs. 60AL armor is doubled. As for the Assassin's critical damage of 39.60, my spreadsheet calculates in minute fractions, but the figure does approximately corresponds to 28*1.41 (the shorthand calc for a critical hit). I'm fairly confident there are no glaring errors here. Since we've come so far, we might as well recalc the average damage over 100 chances for both professions factoring in the critical hit %. Unlike Amy, I will leave off the weapon mods since these impact both professions proportionally. To simpify: for assassin, normal hit 60% and critical hit 40%. For ranger 77% and 23% respectively. So the total damage over 100 arrows for each would be: 16 marksmanship --> (30.41*77)+(56.00*23)=2341.57+1288.00 = 3629.57 12 marksmanship --> (21.50*60)+(39.60*40)=1290.00+1584.00 = 2874.00 Doesn't work out to the assassin's advantage at all, and this still doesn't even include the "extra" damage from barrage. Nor does it include any other damage boosts the Ranger primary can bring in from his secondary profession (conjure, frenzy, nightmare weap, etc). At a future date, I may post the complete damage comparison as an excel doc., including the barrage damage, but this in getting huge already so..... To sum up: the average effective damage for the maxed out Crit Barrager is about 80% what the maxed out Ranger Primary does. A pretty f-n huge difference.
Amy Awien
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling Wanda
... it only does double the base damage when the attacker has a weapon attribute skill of 16. Then the combined effect of the critical hit (+20 Bonus DL) and Weapon Skill 16 (skill*5=80 Base Damage Level) does indeed boost the attacker's overall Effective Damage Level to 100
I don't want to sound to critical, but DL increases by 5 per attribute level only until attribute level 12, after that it increments with two. A level 16 your AL would be 5*12+4*2 = 68, see the article on GW-Wiki.
So, the result would be closer to each other. Whirling Wanda
Haha, I forgot all about that. Thanks Amy. That's the beauty of spreadsheets, all I need to do is correct one little thing and everything recalculates automatically.
DLBonus = -3*[16-(20/2+2)] = 3*[16-(12)] = 3*[4] = -12 EffDL=80-12=68 (24.70*77) + (45.49*23) = 1901.10+1046.27=2948.17 Oh yeah, that's exactly what you had the first time! But it DOESN'T MATTER! Critical Barrage still sux when you add the barrage damage and other stuff. Besides, there's no point to making one! The barrage Ranger can already be a barrager. If you want to be an assassin, be an assassin! Not some wimpy ranger. End of rant. easyg
Whatever, we've had the damage calculation for the arrow damage 3 times now, and each time it shows the same thing. With barrage damage factored in, the Ranger is +6 per hit approximately in average arrow damage.
Against this, a A/R can bring in Sharpen Daggers for bleeding. If bleeding is all that he's got in his favor, then the A/R will undoubtedly be crap in some scenarios since not every creature can be made to bleed. A case in point: yesterday, my Rt/N was doing Nephui. On our PUG we had 2 assassins: one was a regular dagger assassin; the other was a Critical Barrage. Guess what: all of those Celestial Essences were immune to bleeding because they're spirits. Maybe we should've left the Crit Barrager behind right? But anyway, the Crit Barrager did better than the dagger assassin, who died, literally, about 20 times, even with 2 monks (albiet henchies) healing him. But back to the subject. My point is simply this: Crit Barrager is about the same as a random Ranger with 16 markmanship who happens to have Barrage on his skillbar. I'll grant the -3 degen from bleeding @ 40% chance is about the same as +6 arrow damage ATB. Sometimes the degen will be better, sometimes the extra damage will be better. Let's call it a wash. But as soon as the Ranger becomes a Ranger/* Barrage build and not just a random Ranger with Barrage in a skill slot, the Crit Barrager starts to suck comparatively. A/R will suck a little or suck a lot in comparions based exactly on how the Ranger primary is set up. Which leaves the question still unanswered: why bother making one unless you're just plain set on having an Assassin and this is the only way you think you'll be able to get into a group? Scourgey
Some "survivor" assassins can't be bothered to run into front lines, unleash combo, then shadow step back before they get spiked.
When I am that survivior assassin, I use it, and keeps me nice and safe |
