EULA changed

Originally Posted by gojensen

But you folks all just click ok and sell your souls??

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

So, what agreement have you signed?

A click is not a signature, nor a mark of identification. Not yet anyway, because this is one of the things the software companies are lobbying very very hard to have changed.

As of now, EULAs are completely irrelevant to customers. They're nothing. They're a bunch of pixels on a screen, that's their sum total importance to the world.

The only power EULAs hold is psychological. It's something to point to in case of conflict with a customer, and in the vast majority of cases the customer will say "oh, damn!" and accept the authority of the EULA. Thereby saving the company (and the customer) the expense of going to court.

Now, companies COULD make a real contract with the same content as the EULA, but it'd have to be something you actually signed, and had a chance to review PRIOR to handing over the money. Companies have rightly concluded that might put people off from buying their games, so they don't want to do that. Plus you have to be adult to sign legally binding contracts, which would really hurt sales of computer games.

Not to mention that most of the provisions in EULAs are in conflict with customer protection laws - e.g. the provision you can only sue them in their own local court is laughable, as is the claim that they're never responsible for any damages caused by their product.

So - remember to vote for politicians who DON'T want to make EULAs & shrinkwrap licenses legally binding.


WRT MMO accounts, it gets a bit unclear. As far as I can see there's a conflict here between the companys right to restrict access to their computers (which they of course can do for any reason, including that they just don't like your face), and the customers reasonable expectation that the product he buys is actually functional (which MMOs aren't without access to the publishers computers). I have no idea which right would win out there.

But as far as the EULA goes, it's just a waste of electicity to display it on screen.

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

What I'm hearing when I read this is you agreed to something; but you never inteded to actually follow that agreement and it meant nothing to you. Hypothetically, let's say that the EULA had absolutely no legal standing; it's basically a casual agreement. It is still an agreement that you made so why would you go against it? They basically tell you don't continue unless you agree to accept these rules and conditions or you wont be allowed to play. The point is that if you don't think you could/would follow the rules; don't play at all.
It sounds to me like you relish in the fact that you can break the rules you agreed to but maybe win in court due to a technicality. You just emphasize over and over that even though it is an agreement, it's not a clandestine contract signed in triplicate complete with notary. The fact that people are still harping over this at all seems very childish and pointless. A man that goes against his word, regardless of whether or not it's an actual contract, is one without honor and one of the most base forms of life.

Originally Posted by Stockholm

A very onesided casual agreement, normaly when you make a casual agreement you can disscuse the terms, here we are just told what They want us to agree to. And if we don't agree we are out $50 that they will not refund(once you can see it the box is opened and no refunds on open game boxes), since we could not see the agreement before we payed, I think that is where the violation against consumer laws are abused. The EULA should be printed on the OUTSIDE of any pakaging the game comes in, then if you don't like the termes, fine don't buy it.

And if you don't agree to the EULA, and you want to go through the process of getting your money back, non of the provisions in the EULA applies so you can take them to court anywhere you want, and the clause about no refunds can not be applied either by the company, since you did not agree there is no agreement betwen you and the company.

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

What I'm hearing when I read this is you agreed to something; but you never inteded to actually follow that agreement and it meant nothing to you. Hypothetically, let's say that the EULA had absolutely no legal standing; it's basically a casual agreement. It is still an agreement that you made so why would you go against it? They basically tell you don't continue unless you agree to accept these rules and conditions or you wont be allowed to play.

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Too clever perhaps? I just don't feel like going on a hunt to prove or disprove something that was claimed "out of thin air".

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

The point you're missing here, is that I've already bought the game.

I've already paid for it.

The problem with EULAs isn't that they lay down rules, every contract does that, it's that they lay down rules _post facto_.

Even that might be acceptable if there was a refund policy, so that I could get my money back if I decided the EULA was unacceptable - but there's not.

Hence, what an EULA is, is that after the conclusion of the transaction, the seller unilaterally lays out new terms, which the buyer did not have the opportunity to review prior to the transaction, and if the buyer does not agree to the new terms, he forfeits both the money and the merchandise.

That's the problem with EULAs and shrinkwraps.

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

To fit any EULA on the outside of a box, the box would either have to be rediculously huge, or the print would have to be so small no one could possibly read it.

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

That EULAs are intentionally huge, complex and obtuse is an argument against EULAs, not in favor of them.

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Either existing law and reasonable expectations are sufficient (as when, say, you buy a book), or you get an actual contract to review and sign prior to purchase (as when buying a house or car). That's all there's to it. If the game companies want specific terms above and beyond existing law, then they need to get users to review and sign actual contracts prior to buying the software.

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

EDIT: and having the EULA on the web changes nothing. At all.

Originally Posted by majoho

And I still don't see anyone providing a link to how this violates your consumer or any other rights - so I'm still assuming people don't actually have any basis for what they say.