Vamp or Sundering, which is more dmg in the long run?
skreet preacha
suprised i've never seen this debate before, maybe i've just missed it. now in general PvE terms, if u just generally wanting to do the most damage, which takes off more damage from enemies in the long run? 3 vamp points gauranteed every strike, or 20/20 sundering? most people seem to generally want sundering off the bat, cuz it sounds and looks good, but i've been thinking about this vamp thing, and it seems that would add up to alot too. i personally have 20/20 sundering atm, but am just pondering the possiblities of vamp. any got any logistics on the numbers? ;-) what you think?
Turbobusa
vamp.
in fact, it has been discussed many times. if you want more details, i'll suggest you to search for old threads, many of them include a damage calculation over time.
sundering is an illusion
in fact, it has been discussed many times. if you want more details, i'll suggest you to search for old threads, many of them include a damage calculation over time.
sundering is an illusion
skreet preacha
ah i wish, but they changed the search mode, u cant limit it to one forum, so anything searched for sundering or vamp is just gonna bring up hundreds of WTS and PC threads with those words in it. :-(
Truong
I'm pretty sure Vampric is the better choice, because it's guaranteed extra damage, while Sundering only has a certain percentage of chance to do additional damage.
Effigy
Vamp adds +3 unresistable damage per hit. That's roughly a 10% damage boost over the base, on every hit.
20/20 sundering gives 20% AP on 1 out of every 5 hits; this equals out to roughly 4% AP per hit on average over time.
As you can see, vamp is already looking better. However, it is even greater when you consider that AP loses effectiveness as the AL of the target decreases. Since your job as a warrior is generally to beat on squishy targets most of the time, sundering is clearing inferior.
20/20 sundering gives 20% AP on 1 out of every 5 hits; this equals out to roughly 4% AP per hit on average over time.
As you can see, vamp is already looking better. However, it is even greater when you consider that AP loses effectiveness as the AL of the target decreases. Since your job as a warrior is generally to beat on squishy targets most of the time, sundering is clearing inferior.
llsektorll
vamp + dual shot is ftw... have 1 vamp and 1 cold weapon so it is easier to kill warrior monsters
Thom Bangalter
for pvp purposes, vamp is superior, for the reasons effigy listed above.
for pve purposes, sundering isn't bad because then you're not running around in a mission with -1 degen from vamp. of course, you can always weapon swap, but sundering is just a practical choice if you're looking for a mod without any sort of negative drawback.
(just to throw this out, My warrior is my go to guy for most pvp aspects of the game, that or ranger. I don't even have a sundering weapon on my warrior, instead having an elemental weapon, zealous weapon, and vamp weapon).
for pve purposes, sundering isn't bad because then you're not running around in a mission with -1 degen from vamp. of course, you can always weapon swap, but sundering is just a practical choice if you're looking for a mod without any sort of negative drawback.
(just to throw this out, My warrior is my go to guy for most pvp aspects of the game, that or ranger. I don't even have a sundering weapon on my warrior, instead having an elemental weapon, zealous weapon, and vamp weapon).
Marty Silverblade
Don't forget if you hit with a vamp weapon, you get the 3 health drained, it's not just damage. That's another pro for the vamp weps.
ubermancer
Please remember that if you are using a Vampiric Hammer, you should go ahead and plan on buying a Sundering Hammer Haft sometime soon.
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubermancer
Please remember that if you are using a Vampiric Hammer, you should go ahead and plan on buying a Sundering Hammer Haft sometime soon.
I don't really use Hammers too often... but you've sparked my curiosity now. Is there some reason besides the fact that Hammers get more out of AP? 
skreet preacha
yeah, i'm not concerned about -1 degen or gettin 3 health with every hit, i'm just talkin about dealing the most damage. say for troll farming though, where their armor is high. Effigy, you compared apples and oranges though. a supposed 10% dmg boost to 4% average AP. AP and dmg is not the same. from my understanding, when the 20% AP takes place, you hit the enemy as if their AL was 20% lower. (i.e. if u were fighting a monster with 100 AL, then 1 of every 5 hits would hit them as if they had 80 AL, which would be more damage of course. the question is, how much more?) i saw a chart on a GW site once with AL's and AP, forgot where though. that would probably help. let the discussion continue ;-)
Yanman.be
Vamp 1/1 still does more damage I believe.
dgb
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
I don't really use Hammers too often... but you've sparked my curiosity now. Is there some reason besides the fact that Hammers get more out of AP?
They have a higher base DPS than sword or axe and that's waht the benefit for sundering is calculated off - however I'm not sure that necessarily means that Sundering is better.
They have a higher base DPS than sword or axe and that's waht the benefit for sundering is calculated off - however I'm not sure that necessarily means that Sundering is better.
skreet preacha
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php
they have a few charts there on game mechanics, including AP. mathematically, this could be solved if one knew the AL of lev24 mountain trolls, the example enemy in this case.. anyhoo, i did some experimenting today to try to see the sundering difference, in which i have 20/19 sundering on my troll farmin axe. (not to mention 20% vs trolls grip, 15% while enchanted mod, and 20% customized dmg, so off the top thats 55% more dmg than regular, just FYI before i give the numbers, as they may different for someone else). 19% of the time (gettin 20% AP) is roughly 1 in 5 axe swings. so i hacked away, watching the numbers, and i found that i usually/regularly average between 5-20 dmg per swing, we'll say 12 on an average. though i noticed about 25-30% of the time, it went way up in the 30's and 40's. this is using no skills remember. i counted a couple 33's and a few 48's. my guess is that one of these is from the AP kicking in, and the other from scoring a critical hit. which one is which, i dont know. either way, playing it conservative and say that i averaged a 30 every time sundering kicked in, thats 18 more hp than my regular hit average. divide that number by 5, and you get about 3.5 more hp dmg per swing, which is only slightly above what a vamp mod would do. now, if it's vice versa, and those numbers i saw in the 40's were from the sundering mod, and the lower ones were from a critical hit, then yeah, its gonna be a lot more than 3.5 extra dmg, and IMHO, would clearly make sundering the better damage dealer.
they have a few charts there on game mechanics, including AP. mathematically, this could be solved if one knew the AL of lev24 mountain trolls, the example enemy in this case.. anyhoo, i did some experimenting today to try to see the sundering difference, in which i have 20/19 sundering on my troll farmin axe. (not to mention 20% vs trolls grip, 15% while enchanted mod, and 20% customized dmg, so off the top thats 55% more dmg than regular, just FYI before i give the numbers, as they may different for someone else). 19% of the time (gettin 20% AP) is roughly 1 in 5 axe swings. so i hacked away, watching the numbers, and i found that i usually/regularly average between 5-20 dmg per swing, we'll say 12 on an average. though i noticed about 25-30% of the time, it went way up in the 30's and 40's. this is using no skills remember. i counted a couple 33's and a few 48's. my guess is that one of these is from the AP kicking in, and the other from scoring a critical hit. which one is which, i dont know. either way, playing it conservative and say that i averaged a 30 every time sundering kicked in, thats 18 more hp than my regular hit average. divide that number by 5, and you get about 3.5 more hp dmg per swing, which is only slightly above what a vamp mod would do. now, if it's vice versa, and those numbers i saw in the 40's were from the sundering mod, and the lower ones were from a critical hit, then yeah, its gonna be a lot more than 3.5 extra dmg, and IMHO, would clearly make sundering the better damage dealer.
sludderx
Think of it as this. You will ALWAYS have the vampiric damage, no matter what. But if you have sundering 20/20, thats only a 1/5 change to hit and do extra damage. So vamp is better for the long run. Most people ignore the 20% and think they can hit extra damage like most of the times, but you dont.
skreet preacha
but 20% is guaranteed. i'd rather do 20 to 30 more damage every 5 swings, than just 3 more every swing. in the long run, sundering seems better for damage dealing.
lemming
Quote:
Originally Posted by skreet preacha
but 20% is guaranteed. i'd rather do 20 to 30 more damage every 5 swings, than just 3 more every swing. in the long run, sundering seems better for damage dealing.
No it's not.
For one, you can't count on having the 20% AP when calculating spike damage, whereas you can with the vamp mod. The AP is not guaranteed; it's mathematically possible to go 5 swings without it triggering.
And secondly, that 20-30 more damage figure is exaggerated.
For one, you can't count on having the 20% AP when calculating spike damage, whereas you can with the vamp mod. The AP is not guaranteed; it's mathematically possible to go 5 swings without it triggering.
And secondly, that 20-30 more damage figure is exaggerated.
Isaac Lunoa
20-30 is WAY more than sundering will give you...
Savio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Effigy
Quote: Originally Posted by ubermancer Please remember that if you are using a Vampiric Hammer, you should go ahead and plan on buying a Sundering Hammer Haft sometime soon. Yay for statements without the slightest evidence to back them up.
Quote: Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Vamp 1/1 still does more damage I believe.
No it wouldn't, but who needs to use vamp 1/1? Vamp 3/1 is cheap as dirt thanks to rich people who collect sundering and the dumb popular masses who insist sundering is great.
Quote:
Vampiric would, given an infinite number of hits, would deal more raw damage, yes.
Which is what the OP asked about as stated in the title, and which I answered. But we might as well discuss which one is more useful since nobody really talked about it after the sundering buff.Quote:
I was listing critical hits sans attack skills, which was why Strength AP was irrelevant. With an attack skill and 9 Strength it would do 87 damage plus the attack skill damage if any.|
Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz
Where are the search nazi's at?
Here and accounted for. It used to be fairly straightforward when sundering was 10/10 and completely blew, now it just kind of blows. Also, another recent thread tried to prove vamp vs sundering through 1v1s... yeah.
~~~
Assuming 16 in the weapon attribute, a 60 AL target, 23.5% critical hit chance (no critical strikes), 115% damage due to the weapon attribute (yes, 115% is a fraction of a percent off), a +15% damage modifier, and a +20% customization: Hammers: Average damage is 51.11 damage per hit. Sundering triggering once every five hits will give a bonus of 11.81 damage. Vampiric steals 25 health in five hits. Total difference is 13.19 health per five hits or 2.64 health per hit. At normal attack speed that is a difference of 1.51 health per second. Axes: Average damage is 35.44 damage per hit. Sundering triggering once every five hits will give a bonus of 8.19 damage. Vampiric steals 15 health in five hits. Total axe difference is 6.81 health per five hits or 1.36 health per hit. At normal attack speed that is a difference of 1.02 health per second. Swords: Average damage is 33.98 damage per hit. Sundering triggering once every five hits will give a bonus of 7.85 damage. Vampiric steals 15 health in five hits. Total sword difference is 7.15 health per five hits or 1.43 health per hit. At normal attack speed that is a difference of 1.08 health per second. Bows: Average damage is 40.91 damage per hit. Sundering triggering once every five hits will give a bonus of 9.46 damage. Vampiric steals 25 health in five hits. Total bow difference is 15.54 health per five hits or 3.11 health per hit. At shortbow attack speed that is a difference of 1.56 health per second. At hornbow attack speed that is a difference of 1.15 health per second. Daggers: Average damage is 23.50 damage per hit. Sundering triggering once every five hits will give a bonus of 5.43 damage. Vampiric steals 15 health in five hits. Total daggers difference is 9.57 health per five hits or 1.91 health per hit. At normal attack speed (including double strikes) that is a difference of 1.92 health per second. Summary: Vampiric is actually very effective on hammers because the higher average damage (which affects how much of an increase sundering gives) is nothing compared to the additional 2 lifesteal per hit they have over other weapons. Axes have the least difference between sundering and vampiric due to a high average damage rate and only 3 lifesteal max. Daggers show the greatest difference due to the fact that they have a low average damage rate. But regardless, sundering is always inferior to vampiric. ~~~
"But Savio, what if sundering triggers when I get a critical hit?" Hammers crit for 78 damage. When sundering triggers they will hit for 96 damage, or an increase of 18 damage. Vampiric will steal 25 health over five hits, a difference of 7 health per five hits or 1.4 health per hit. Axes and bows crit for 63 damage. When sundering triggers they will hit for 77 damage, or an increase of 14 damage. Vampiric will steal 15 health over five hits, a difference of 1 health per five hits or 0.2 health per hit. Swords crit for 49 damage. When sundering triggers they will hit for 61 damage, or an increase of 12 damage. Vampiric will steal 15 health over five hits, a difference of 3 health per five hits or 0.6 health per hit. Daggers crit for 38 damage. When sundering triggers they will hit for 47 damage, or an increase of 9 damage. Vampiric will steal 15 health over five hits, a difference of 6 health per five hits or 1.2 health per hit. So not even the high end of the sundering damage range can justify taking it. Although sundering is vastly better than its former 10/10 state, it still does not outperform vampiric as the physical damage mod of choice. Also, before anyone says anything about it, armor penetration does not affect +damage from attack skills (as they already ignore armor), so they are irrelevant.
Skuld
Just because you can't afford sundering savio
 If you took some time to get a decent farming build you could get some of your own! 
Legendary Shiz
This thread should be closed.
Where are the search nazi's at? skreet preacha
ah, my last post didnt get posted for some reason, lol, think i hit the BACK button before posting. anyway, it basically said thanks to savio for the breakdown, it doesnt make sense then though how i'm gettin 20-30 extra dmg every 4 hits or so (with sundering and critical hits)...
as for searching Shiz, unless i'm just blind, i dont see a way to limit searches anymore. as i stated already in this thread, you type in sundering or vamp in the search box, and ur just gonna get hundreds of listings for Sell and PC section.
ubermancer
I didnt include the math because I have done it in this very sub-forum many times before.
Yes, Sundering is based only off of base weapon damage, NOT attack skills' bonus damage. These tests were assuming 60 AL target, 16 Hammer, and 9 Strength. (what were your numbers at? 78 damage on a crit with a hammer, how?) A crit with a clean 15% customized Hammer is 87. A crit with 20% Sundering activating does 107. A crit with Sundering activating while underneath the effects of Judge's Insight does 132. This means that Sundering activating underneath Judge's Insight on Fierce Blow can deal 174 damage. Without JI, it would still deal 149 damage. Vampiric would, given an infinite number of hits, would deal more raw damage, yes. But if this game was about DPS then Cleave would be a favored elite over Eviscerate. Consider a standard Devastating Hammer + Crushing Blow + Fierce Blow chain: With a Vampiric weapon you will always deal 15 extra damage. With a Sundering weapon, you have 3 seperate chances to deal ~20 extra damage. Given that you have an 80% chance for Sundering not to proc each hit, thats roughly a 50% chance that Sundering WILL proc, and deal more damage. And assuming you get one proc, there is still a decent chance you will get another. Sundering allows you to put more pressure on your target when you need it most (as its in those three hits a Warrior does his job, not all the rest). Its true that you can not rely on Sundering is not something you can rely on, but its potential is greater then that of Vampiric, whos damage in a spike is insignificant. Also, Sundering has no downside, while Vampiric gives you health degeneration (health steal too, sure, but you dont always hit).
Don Zardeone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz
Where are the search nazi's at? |
Sorry, got held up by them gestapo noobs. Who the hell do they think they are, fuhrers? Geez...
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But if this game was about DPS then Cleave would be a favored elite over Eviscerate.
The difference between Cleave and Eviscerate is the difference between one more spammable weaker skill and a skill that is part of a spike chain. The difference between vampiric and sundering is either always having a small amount (3 or 5) of extra damage or occasionally having an uncontrollable boost to damage (7-14, crit 20 for hammers). Just because DPS isn't the highest priority in the game doesn't mean we throw it out entirely. Were the extra damage from sundering to occur enough to be of significance, it actually would be a viable alternative. But does sundering have enough of an effect? Quote:
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