Fort Aspenwood Turtle Exploit
scrinner
Truth be told aspenwood needs a litttle work on NPC Aggro. Once for some strange reason Master architect gunther just walked out of the gate during a luxon invasion gone wrong. With only a few percenrt left, The turtles finished gunther off without a sweat.
StarryNites
Quote:Why would turtle have 8 warriors when it should be only 4 anyway?
got attacked by turtle with 12 warriors one side and 4 on the other gate
u tried stoppin 12 luxon warriors n turtle + couple of players comin thru 1 gate (u also got the 4 + turtle comin other gate)using coward wiped out all team in about 30 secs was funny at time
but if people click to this trick kurzick will stand no chance at Fort Aspenwood
as for gatekeepers &^%&^% stop runnin off out the gates
seen them go as far as front gate n stop there like sittin ducks
also people gettin stuck in/under the stairs down to the green gate area
and dont start me on leechers
have had team with 3 of us fightin 5 leechin wtf
got attacked by turtle with 12 warriors one side and 4 on the other gate
u tried stoppin 12 luxon warriors n turtle + couple of players comin thru 1 gate (u also got the 4 + turtle comin other gate)using coward wiped out all team in about 30 secs was funny at time
as for gatekeepers &^%&^% stop runnin off out the gates
seen them go as far as front gate n stop there like sittin ducks
also people gettin stuck in/under the stairs down to the green gate area
and dont start me on leechers
have had team with 3 of us fightin 5 leechin wtf
Ole Man Bourbon
Hint: Bring EoE on the Luxon side and if I'm on the Luxon side, too, with my bread and butter build, I'll be friggin pissed.
BTW the reason the turtles are powerful is to counter the Kurz monk/bonder element. Problem for Kurz is there are lots of offense-oriented Eles and Wammos and not enough healers/defender types on their side.
BTW the reason the turtles are powerful is to counter the Kurz monk/bonder element. Problem for Kurz is there are lots of offense-oriented Eles and Wammos and not enough healers/defender types on their side.
Curse You
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
allow me to disagree. At the rate things die in aspenwood even 1 second EoE is up is more than enough to do lethal damage. And even if you kill it, luxon player can always just oath shot and put it up again.
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Also, isn't there a little spirit thing sitting around, you know, making the effect? Maybe if you kill it, the effect will go away. Also, maybe if you kill the guy making it, then it won't be there.
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
you have been given two distinct ways to deal with it and one of them you named yourself. Now you turn around and say "no". How does this make any sense?
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
errr... no it is not. Loosing even both turtles does not make you auto lose. You still have 8 players to push thru weak NPC and kurzick players. Sure it is much harder, but hey 8 warriors per turtle is fine to, right?
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I think you may want to reconsider your argument, mostly because you're a one man force on this. Noone else seems to agree with you.
This issue can only be countered by killing the exploiter, as it is with any bug. Just because you killed the exploiter, doesn't mean it isn't a bug.
Numa Pompilius
I'm with Orinn and Symon on this. It isn't a problem, and npc's do stupid things. Why doesn't the gatekeepers avoid AoE & kite?
Because they don't. Adapt.
But yeah, Orinn is also right that it's strange that the luxon warriors will run off into the sunset following anyone they don't like. They should return to the turtle sooner. But on the other hand, would Luxons be happier having them guard the body of a dead turtle while the rest of the team is fighting inside the green door?
To that I'll add that I do not think "irreversible" means what you guys think it means. It's hard to instruct people in FA to "do not run close to or attack the luxon warriors standing around holding their dicks". Most times the warriors will be reactivated again within seconds.
To the rest I'll say the same as I say to the people complaining about FA being unfairly hard for Kurzicks: rubbish.
Because they don't. Adapt.
But yeah, Orinn is also right that it's strange that the luxon warriors will run off into the sunset following anyone they don't like. They should return to the turtle sooner. But on the other hand, would Luxons be happier having them guard the body of a dead turtle while the rest of the team is fighting inside the green door?
To that I'll add that I do not think "irreversible" means what you guys think it means. It's hard to instruct people in FA to "do not run close to or attack the luxon warriors standing around holding their dicks". Most times the warriors will be reactivated again within seconds.
To the rest I'll say the same as I say to the people complaining about FA being unfairly hard for Kurzicks: rubbish.
Eet GnomeSmasher
You really think that getting the Luxon warriors stuck and doing nothing and the turtle never respawning is a legitimate tactic? Give me a break, why even have a spawn point for them then? Let's just make it so that they dont ever spawn and spare us the lame excuses people are giving for how it's not a bug.
I'm not even complaining about balance or fairness issues here. It's a clear cut bug. The Kurzick NPCs also have issues and those should be fixed too but all of you denying that this is anything but a bug, you're all on crack.
I'm not even complaining about balance or fairness issues here. It's a clear cut bug. The Kurzick NPCs also have issues and those should be fixed too but all of you denying that this is anything but a bug, you're all on crack.
dargon
The problem isn't that the warriors are being led away and the turtle killed, the problem is that the warriors are being led away in such a manner that their PATHING glitches and they get hung up on a small rock or something and can't get to where they are trying to go. Their code basically says, follow path X or Y, which leads from their spawn point to the closest gate. Their code also says, if something bad enters my agro circle, chase after it and kill it and then return to path by the most direct route available. The problem is, people are now leading them on a merry chase around the map and when the chase ends, they try to return, but the most direct route effectively ends in an obstacle. Their code says move towards destination at all times, except when chasing a target. Put an obstacle in the way of that and it blocks them because they aren't smart enough to move away from their destination and then resume moving towards it from a different position. This problem is no different than the problem with the npcs in the canthan city when the game was released, they get caught on obstacles and their basic AI isn't setup to find a way around the obstacle.
Symon Butterthingers
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Let me look at something... Eoe, what does that skill do again? Oh yea, hurts all creatures of the same species. So, wait, aren't Luxon and Kurzick players the same species?
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| Also, isn't there a little spirit thing sitting around, you know, making the effect? Maybe if you kill it, the effect will go away. Also, maybe if you kill the guy making it, then it won't be there. |
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| So you're saying that because two unrelated things have counters, Luxon players have nothing to complain about? Nice logic. |
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| Yes, right, weak NPCs AND 8 other players, sounds like a perfect match. |
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I think you may want to reconsider your argument, mostly because you're a one man force on this. Noone else seems to agree with you. This issue can only be countered by killing the exploiter, as it is with any bug. Just because you killed the exploiter, doesn't mean it isn't a bug. |
ChildeOfMalkav
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
that exactly what my point holds on... they SHOULDNT be same species. There is not reason for them to be. And in the context where death occurs no penalty (quick respawn times for NPC) it is easily exploited by suiciding. This exactly the problem with stacked luxon warriors - people exploit respawn flaw and no penalty for death.
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How do you consistantly spout this nonsense, Ira?
Trvth Jvstice
I play Ft Aspenwood a Lot and I haven't seen this problem concerning the turtles respawning. The problem I've seen most often with the turtles is them getting stuck at one of the gates.
Other than the first wave of Turtles, I'm not usually concerned with them anyway. By the time the Turtles start dying we're usually through the inner gate and attacking the green gate NPCs (or should be, if people knew how to play this mission).
What frustrates me is, when the green gate is open to attack and you see someone spamming "I'm talking to Purple Commander." While I'm pulling my hair out I try to let them know we should forget about the Turtles now and concentrate on the NPCs.
If only there was a pop-up at the start of the mission that stated "The goal of this mission is to kill Master Archetect Gunther. He is behind the Green Gate."
Other than the first wave of Turtles, I'm not usually concerned with them anyway. By the time the Turtles start dying we're usually through the inner gate and attacking the green gate NPCs (or should be, if people knew how to play this mission).
What frustrates me is, when the green gate is open to attack and you see someone spamming "I'm talking to Purple Commander." While I'm pulling my hair out I try to let them know we should forget about the Turtles now and concentrate on the NPCs.
If only there was a pop-up at the start of the mission that stated "The goal of this mission is to kill Master Archetect Gunther. He is behind the Green Gate."
some guy
The game is bugged on both sides, so let's just stop the arguing try to deal with the bugs.
lansid_drakken
Wanna know an even WORSE bug?
Twice I've taken it upon myself to attack the orange priest/commander with my Warrior... easy enough. UNTIL... the turtle respawns with it's 4 warriors.. and ANOTHER 4 warriors respawn, making it a total of 8 warriors with THAT turtle!
So far been able to duplicate it twice, as it's kinda difficult to be alone, killing the commander when the turtle JUST respawns...
To the best of my knowledge... the priest has to be dead, and commander to be engaged in fighting... needless to say I'm not "excited" about duplicating it on purpose, as it makes it even more difficult. =\
Twice I've taken it upon myself to attack the orange priest/commander with my Warrior... easy enough. UNTIL... the turtle respawns with it's 4 warriors.. and ANOTHER 4 warriors respawn, making it a total of 8 warriors with THAT turtle!
So far been able to duplicate it twice, as it's kinda difficult to be alone, killing the commander when the turtle JUST respawns...
To the best of my knowledge... the priest has to be dead, and commander to be engaged in fighting... needless to say I'm not "excited" about duplicating it on purpose, as it makes it even more difficult. =\
Curse You
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
that exactly what my point holds on... they SHOULDNT be same species. There is not reason for them to be. And in the context where death occurs no penalty (quick respawn times for NPC) it is easily exploited by suiciding. This exactly the problem with stacked luxon warriors - people exploit respawn flaw and no penalty for death.
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
Yes. In fact this is how most things work around here. It is not broken if it can be countered. I have been told this exactly same thing so many times, tha i finaly believed in it.
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Yet, the warriors can be "trapped" by a Kurzick player, and only by a Kurzick player.
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
the point was that Luxons have huge NPC advantage to begin with. It get worse with 8 wars per turtle, but according to you it is still fine. But when kurzicks get NPC advantage that suddenly becomes horribly broken.
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
Noone else of like 5 people talking? So? I'm not good at following the crowd, so you'll have to do a bit better than that.
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Maybe you should stop arguing. I don't know what you must think this is about.
Everyone else has acknowleged this as a bug, and they have aknowledged the Gatekeepers running out as a bug. The 8 warriors is not as much of a bug, because it is triggered by the team that dislikes it, however, it is still a bug.
Symon Butterthingers
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Originally Posted by Curse You
Why don't you use that powerful AoE you seem to find so overpowered to deal with them? Fire isn't the only element, Earth can tank well over 10 warriors, and kill them while doing it.
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this is like the most random thing i've read in whole day.
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Let's see. The bug with 8 warriors can only be accomplished by the side that it effects (only a Kurzick can make it happen). The Gate Keepers are irratic, an only sometimes run out, without any influence from the Luxons. Yet, the warriors can be "trapped" by a Kurzick player, and only by a Kurzick player. |
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| Yes, such an advantage. 2 warriors with 2 Seige Turtles against 8 Earth Elementalists, 5 Necos, 5 Rangers, 4 Assassins, 4 Mesmers and 2 Monks. |
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| I wonder what would happen if a Monk were to bond one of those gate NPCs? |
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| I think you missed the point of the satement you quoted. |
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| Maybe you should stop arguing. I don't know what you must think this is about. |
You see, this is what pisses me off. Statements like "you have no clue", "this is obvious", bias accusations and such... If you have nothing else to say, just don't say anything.
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| Everyone else has acknowleged this as a bug, and they have aknowledged the Gatekeepers running out as a bug. The 8 warriors is not as much of a bug, because it is triggered by the team that dislikes it, however, it is still a bug. |
Alfrond
I don't really see why we need to be fighting so passionately about this. Would any one really be very upset if the turtle spawning bug, the gatekeepers leaving green gate bug, and the 8 warrior bug were all gotten rid of at the same time? I realize some of this argueing is due to the Kurzick/Luxon rivalry but if those bugs were gotten rid of then both sides benefit, right? (I realize I only mentioned fixing one bug on the Luxon side but its really the only one I know of)
Leonof
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Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers
it is a simple analogy. Something that makes you lose is not an exploit.
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People think it's not a bug saying the kurzicks have bugs too. Thats a stupid and flawed logic, theyr'e both bugged then and the best way is to fix both problems. Best solution I can think of is make the warriors advance to gunther til they die and make the gatekeepers stay inside green gate. There might be other bugs but they are rare.
Caged Fury
Even though there are quite a few bugs that the Kurzick side are faced with and need to be addressed, it does not alter the fact that this is a bug. Luxon warriors running off after someone and then standing around like lemons, because their turtle is dead, is clearly a bug. Even if the warrior's AI was programmed as per the Design Specification to do this, then it is still a defect - not a program one but a design bug.
In short, it IS a bug!
In short, it IS a bug!
thecrimsonblade
A few of my guildies and myself found that if you attack as a group with everybody at one gate taking out everything as you go. Then work right to left of left to right depending on which gate you took out first. The fort can be taken down in just a few min and the Kurzicks never know what hit them glitch or not. Nobody on our team died even once and our turtles blasted the hell out of them. While Kurzicks ran around in a panic we laid waste to them one after the other.
Trvth Jvstice
@thecrimsonblade: I don't know how many times you've played Ft aspenwood, but although that strategy works fairly often, many times my team has been brought to a quick halt when an enemy monk hid behind the gate and bonded/healed the kurzic ele. Of course when I play my N/Me I can put a stop this, but I also play my warrior and assassin there.
My point is: You must have faced a below average/average kurzic team. It's imo impossible to steamroll a well prepared organized team of kurzics.
My point is: You must have faced a below average/average kurzic team. It's imo impossible to steamroll a well prepared organized team of kurzics.
Curse You
So now there are a bunch of Bugs in Fort Aspenwood that need fixing, and some more in Jade Quarry.
(Jade Quarry bugs)
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ferrerid=92302
(Jade Quarry bugs)
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ferrerid=92302
Curse You
Double, but different post, different day too.
I think I figured out a way to fix the Warrior/Turtle exploit;
The Luxon warriors need to have the Turtle designated as their "charge." They are not to let their charge leave their argo bubble(ish), even if chasing an enemy.
This way, they will be able to reach any spellcasters wishing to hurt the Turtle. If the target is outside of their area of attack, they will ignore it (even if it is attacking them) and move back to the Turtle.
If the Turtle dies, the warriors will then proceed to attack the fort on their own. However, if they stray too far from their path to the fort while attacking a target, they will discontinue attacking and return to their path.
This way, they CANNOT be lured into a corner from which they cannot return. As well, they will actually work as a defensive team for the Turtle.
I think I figured out a way to fix the Warrior/Turtle exploit;
The Luxon warriors need to have the Turtle designated as their "charge." They are not to let their charge leave their argo bubble(ish), even if chasing an enemy.
This way, they will be able to reach any spellcasters wishing to hurt the Turtle. If the target is outside of their area of attack, they will ignore it (even if it is attacking them) and move back to the Turtle.
If the Turtle dies, the warriors will then proceed to attack the fort on their own. However, if they stray too far from their path to the fort while attacking a target, they will discontinue attacking and return to their path.
This way, they CANNOT be lured into a corner from which they cannot return. As well, they will actually work as a defensive team for the Turtle.
Orinn
This seems to be ideal, although I would make their range longbow range, rather than spell range. Can't have a ranger barraging the whole turtle team while they stand there.
Evilsod
Whats that skip... Luxons might actually have to think to win Fort Aspenwood? And now they're whining about it? Er... lol.
Have you ever watched a Kurzick Juggernaught recently? *Juggernaught attacked by Turtle* *Juggernaught begins walking towards turtle 2 miles away* *Juggernaught ignores the 4 Luxon Warriors spiking the crap out of it* *Juggernaught dies without doing anything*
The life and death of a Kurzick Juggernaught. We get the most useless, most pathetic 'special unit' with the shittiest AI in the game and you get a ranged Seige Cannon with Luxon Warrior spike flanking it? So... wheres this balance? I'm just not seeing it. Remove the Luxon warriors and actually make the players themselves need to think about covering the Turtle, then you have some balance. The Kurzick NPCs dont even bat an eyelid when under attack from massive AoE spells.
Have you ever watched a Kurzick Juggernaught recently? *Juggernaught attacked by Turtle* *Juggernaught begins walking towards turtle 2 miles away* *Juggernaught ignores the 4 Luxon Warriors spiking the crap out of it* *Juggernaught dies without doing anything*
The life and death of a Kurzick Juggernaught. We get the most useless, most pathetic 'special unit' with the shittiest AI in the game and you get a ranged Seige Cannon with Luxon Warrior spike flanking it? So... wheres this balance? I'm just not seeing it. Remove the Luxon warriors and actually make the players themselves need to think about covering the Turtle, then you have some balance. The Kurzick NPCs dont even bat an eyelid when under attack from massive AoE spells.
Curse You
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Originally Posted by Evilsod
Whats that skip... Luxons might actually have to think to win Fort Aspenwood? And now they're whining about it? Er... lol.
Have you ever watched a Kurzick Juggernaught recently? *Juggernaught attacked by Turtle* *Juggernaught begins walking towards turtle 2 miles away* *Juggernaught ignores the 4 Luxon Warriors spiking the crap out of it* *Juggernaught dies without doing anything* The life and death of a Kurzick Juggernaught. We get the most useless, most pathetic 'special unit' with the shittiest AI in the game and you get a ranged Seige Cannon with Luxon Warrior spike flanking it? So... wheres this balance? I'm just not seeing it. Remove the Luxon warriors and actually make the players themselves need to think about covering the Turtle, then you have some balance. The Kurzick NPCs dont even bat an eyelid when under attack from massive AoE spells. |
The issue with the Juggernaut is that it is programmed to kill whatever target it chooses, unless they cannot reach that target (warriors get in the way). However, they can deal massive damage with that damn Juggernaut Toss.
Juggernauts are countered with anti-warrior, Siege Turtles are countered with anti-spike. I see no problems here, just that anti-warrior is more common due to the large number of warriors in PvP.
Silver_Fang
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Originally Posted by Curse You
I love it when people get really biased about the Fort Aspenwood Mission. It's supprisingly common.
The issue with the Juggernaut is that it is programmed to kill whatever target it chooses, unless they cannot reach that target (warriors get in the way). However, they can deal massive damage with that damn Juggernaut Toss. Juggernauts are countered with anti-warrior, Siege Turtles are countered with anti-spike. I see no problems here, just that anti-warrior is more common due to the large number of warriors in PvP. |
Warriors are counter with killing the turtle, Kurzick NPC are countered with saving the turtle. I see no problem here, just that saving the turtle is less common due to the large number of W/MO in PvP.
Eet GnomeSmasher
No, the issue is that despite whatever biases you have, Luxon warriors just standing around doing nothing is a bug/bad A.I.
Stop confusing the issues and stop posting in here about who's whining about what. Who cares if you're Luxon or Kurzick? If there's a bug it should be fixed.
Some of you are taking this Kurzick/Luxon feud FAR FAR too seriously.
Stop confusing the issues and stop posting in here about who's whining about what. Who cares if you're Luxon or Kurzick? If there's a bug it should be fixed.
Some of you are taking this Kurzick/Luxon feud FAR FAR too seriously.
Alfrond
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Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
No, the issue is that despite whatever biases you have, Luxon warriors just standing around doing nothing is a bug/bad A.I.
Stop confusing the issues and stop posting in here about who's whining about what. Who cares if you're Luxon or Kurzick? If there's a bug it should be fixed. Some of you are taking this Kurzick/Luxon feud FAR FAR too seriously. |
Hyper Cutter
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Originally Posted by Evilsod
The Kurzick NPCs dont even bat an eyelid when under attack from massive AoE spells.
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Dirty Panda
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Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
Some of you are taking this Kurzick/Luxon feud FAR FAR too seriously.
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and no matter which virtual faction you hail from this is a bug and just because the kurzicks have bugs too does not matter becase you dont balance a bug with another bug
two wrongs dont make a right
dargon
The bug isn't that the warriors stop moving when their turtle dies, the bug is that, unless they are chasing a specific target, they have a waypoint in the distance, and they try to get to that waypoint by the straightest line possible, unless the turtle is still alive, inwhich case, they try to get back to the turtle via that same method. Run them far enough, and whether or not the turtle has died, they'll get hung up on the terrain and so long as nobody agros them, become glitched. This is the bug that this thread talks about, and this is the exploit that certain kurzick players like to exploit.