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Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard
Most of the people that hate sins are either people that never played one, have one but die all the time (these are the same people that play every other class horribly too, they are just bad players) or they are just going by what other people have told them.
Have you read a thing here?
It has nothing to do with whether good assassins exist. It has to do with the fact that a bad sin can spell huge trouble, while a bad (insert X) often doesn't.
I played my assassin to 400,000 XP when I had my first death, then I deleted her. It was challenging, and I thought I could make it to survivor (2) at least, maybe to (3). I messed up trying for a skill cap with henchies against an ele boss. Didn't feel like trying again, so deleted her as I didn't care much for her anyway - it was the challenge. I dare you to tell me that playing to 400,000 XP before dying is a sign of a bad player; I play an assassin just fine, thanks.
It has to do with what you'll get when you invite them. The dumbest player on the planet can run a MM effectively enough to contribute to the party. Same is true of many classes. It actually takes skill to run an assassin well in PvE, and skill is remarkably lacking in GW. So when you invite an assassin to the group, the odds are that he's just as good a player as anyone else in the group, but is playing a class that takes more work to play well - especially in that setting.
So it isn't that assassins are necessarily worse (though I do think that there are more bad assassin players, that's a separate argument - and that situation will likely change as the poor players give up on it) - it's that assassins are vulnerable, and tougher to play well. And a bad assassin is obvious, which leads to the perception of assassins as bad. A bad MM isn't a burden to the group, it's just less effective. A bad Ritualist spirit spammer is just a little less effective, but doesn't tend to doom the party. A bad assassin sucks up heals, aggros enemies, dies repeatedly and ends up contributing essentially nothing, because he's at 60% DP and dies every fight. Which is preferable, a guy who's firing arrows innefectually from the back, or putting up spirits that are of marginal value due to poor placement and attributes, or manageing a half strength minion army because he just can't keep it rolling, or the 60% DPd assassin who still tries tanking?
31 Aug 2006 at 20:52 - 9
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Originally Posted by Epinephrine
That's ludicrous. That's why we have TWO professions. I invite based on role. Looking for interrupter. Looking for area damage. Looking for healing support/damage mitigation. A curse/blood necro running damage reduction curses, well of power and well of blood is a powerful mitigator/party-support player. So is a ritualist with the right spirits/build. Or a trapper who knows what he's doing. Or a prot monk. Or a warder ele with some heal skills.
Then again, I've also played through Hell's Precipice with no monk (nor ritualist, as they weren't around) in the party, and done Ring of Fire with an all ranger group, and I enjoy having creative uses of professions. An Attuned Was Songkai hexer? Great! It cuts the energy costs wonderfully, and you can spread them like mad.
It's narrowminded to not explore your profession combination's abilities - as bad as always playing the same build.
Since when does "Play your class" mean "Play this particular cookie cutter build. ie "Play a necro" = "Play SS or MM", "Play an ele" = "Bring meteor shower, meteor, fireball etc"?
I really don't care what build you're playing, as long as we have damage, damage mitigation and a bit of healing somewhere along the lines in pretty much any form. I just care that you play your goddamn class.
Edit: On top of that, the secondary profession is there to enhance the capabilities of the main profession. A Critical barrage and fast cast nuker is doing it the other way around.
31 Aug 2006 at 20:59 - 10
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Originally Posted by Epinephrine
Right - I can only offer this perspective on it.
Some professions can be idiots without screwing up the mission too much. An ineffective warrior can still absorb aggro. An ineffective ranger plinking away from the back isn't really a huge burden. An ineffective assassin keeps dying, and is a drain of healing power etc.
This really speaks to the importance of proper tanking. When you play the Deep, for instance, you can really understand that Warriors (and Warriors alone) should be holding ALL aggro before anyone else gets in enemy range. In PUGs throughout the game, you see people nearly ALWAYS failing to follow this method, and this is the main reason people die. The average PUG Assassin seems to be the most common victim of a group's failure to follow a proper tanking procedure (granted, usually because of the stupid Asswarrior himself).
I'm leveling up a 2nd Warrior for FoW farming on the European server, and I'm really getting worn out by Eles, Rangers, Rits, Assassins, and Monks dashing up to the enemies and unloading before I even get ready to tank, much less establish aggro control. Back to henching through the game for me I guess.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:01 - 11
I don't think the overall perception is that of tanking sins anymore. While you will still get some or plenty, there are many many who know how to play their role.
The problem is with the idea that anything beyond the core classes isn't NEEDED. We went through an entire game without having sins and rits. Why can't I get past this game with them? It is easier to get into a group as a Crit Barrager, because you are basically a ranger when you can't get a ranger.
Many people will take rits, but ask them to either set up as defensive rit lord (aka prot monk) or restoration (healing monk). If there were more monks around people wouldn't even take a rest rit because they would say they can't do the job as well as a monk and therefore not NEEDED.
New classes need to not only provide something new, but something VALUABLE and unique to a team that makes people seek them out as a viable alternative to what is already the established core.
I see Paragons having some slight problems with this unless the majority of their quality party shouts/buffs are tied to their unique attribute. Otherwise, another class (likely Warrior) will just go /P secondary with them.
Dervishes appear to be be able to fair better than assassins as a melee class because they have the ability to tank and deal damage much better than the often times very delicate sin.
Another reason people see sins as problems is the agro break. A party who properly uses their tank to grab the agro, generally doesn't have many other melee characters in it. MMs have theirs, but those can be ranged or be in such a quantity to block the enemy in. A sin, even one who waits for agro to "lock" on the tank, has to still get in the middle of things to do what they are traditionally though to do, even if it is to take out a stray soft target. That increases the potential for agro break, thus exposing the back line, thus chaos.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:08 - 12
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NOT ALL ASSASSINS ARE NOOBS, SURE SOME OF THEM WILL ATTEMPT TO TANK, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM, SO DONT COUNT OUT A VERY GOOD DAMAGE DEALER JUST CUZ OF THIS DUMB STEROTYPE!!!
Yes, that's the type of Assassin we want; one who spams in all caps.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:18 - 13
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Edit: On top of that, the secondary profession is there to enhance the capabilities of the main profession. A Critical barrage and fast cast nuker is doing it the other way around.
Maybe, but before I got Rit Lord, I was running around with Barrage on my rit and wreaking PvE havoc with it while waiting for spirits to recharge. That may or may not be considered "enhancing the capabilities of the main profession", but it definitely worked well.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:24 - 14
Lol, Barrage on a Spirit-spamming Rit? Can't help but giggle a little.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:25 - 15
Haha yeah, I admit it's funny...no arguement there! But it did work well as a temporary thing to do when lacking a good wand and having to wait almost a full minute for spirits to recharge. Better than being useless.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:34 - 16
I don't care if it's a steriotype or not, I reject all assassins flatly and without exception.
As has been mentioned before, someone who is bad at one of the core classes is still benefieting the group in thier own way. Not as much as a good player obviously, but they rarely are hurting the group. A bad (typical) assassin does nothing but hurt the group.
Honestly, if you don't want to hench half the game and spend twice as long finding groups as other people, delete your assassin and make something more useful.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:47 - 17
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Since when does "Play your class" mean "Play this particular cookie cutter build. ie "Play a necro" = "Play SS or MM", "Play an ele" = "Bring meteor shower, meteor, fireball etc"?
I really don't care what build you're playing, as long as we have damage, damage mitigation and a bit of healing somewhere along the lines in pretty much any form. I just care that you play your goddamn class.
Edit: On top of that, the secondary profession is there to enhance the capabilities of the main profession. A Critical barrage and fast cast nuker is doing it the other way around.
I expect you dont like Minions Bomber aka Rt/N as well. How about Atunned Nuker? Attuned Hexer?
The secondary profession is not there to enhance the capabilities of the main profession. The secondary profession is there to let you choose a good combination that fit your style. Touch Ranger, FC Nuker, Atunned Nuker, Attuned Hexer, Minion Bomber, Crit Barrager, Axesassin. As well as some un-named build such as using Elementalist main to spam Heal Party, we may call them E-storage supporter.
Its like saying the only way to play a set of card is Blackjack.
31 Aug 2006 at 21:58 - 18
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Originally Posted by Silver_Fang
I expect you dont like Minions Bomber aka Rt/N as well. How about Atunned Nuker? Attuned Hexer?
The secondary profession is not there to enhance the capabilities of the main profession. The secondary profession is there to let you choose a good combination that fit your style. Touch Ranger, FC Nuker, Atunned Nuker, Attuned Hexer, Minion Bomber, Crit Barrager, Axesassin. As well as some un-named build such as using Elementalist main to spam Heal Party, we may call them E-storage supporter.
Its like saying the only way to play a set of card is Blackjack.
But zero of those things are more effective in PvE than the corresponding primary classes.
Won't go into it further, as it's off-topic. I recommend you make another one.
31 Aug 2006 at 22:16 - 19
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Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Delete your assassin.
Also, AoD Is one of the easiest caps on the game.
awarded for most ignorant post of the day.
And to the girl who said stuff about crit barrage assassins-> you must be joking. Crit Barrage, if done right, will totally own its ranger counterpart. You dont NEED a 16 in marksman if you are getting over one-third critical hits. The armor is the exact same (id actually prefer some of the assassins' armor to the rangers +elemental) and as long as you dont try to do much else but critical hits and marksmanship this build is much better than a ranger (not counting a lack of pet)
I did a ToPK the other day with 2 B/P, 1 Crit Barrage asn, me as MM, and one healing rit.
It was one of the most amazing things you could ever have seen. Four of us even got ectos in that run.
Personally, for my assassin, I really enjoy alliance battles (its true tho ive given up on pve lol). I use recall and deaths charge- cast recall on like 3 people, jump in with zealous daggers, and teleport like I was playing a freaking Marvel Nemesis character.
I get thanked by people for doing a good job, and I appreciate the respect my performance gets me.
31 Aug 2006 at 22:30 - 20
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
But zero of those things are more effective in PvE than the corresponding primary classes.
Won't go into it further, as it's off-topic. I recommend you make another one.
Effective? thats a subjective thing, it really depends on group set up.
Its like bringing 2 Monks into mission, sure, 1 more Monk is more effectivein healing, but they are less effective on dealing damage. You can finish most if not all of the mission with only 1 Monks, bringing 1 more Monk is only for safety.
They bring something to the table where the corresponding primary can't do.
31 Aug 2006 at 22:31 - 21
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Originally Posted by capblueberry
ok im trying to cap Aura of Displacement and Flashing blades for my assassin but am havnig a bit a trouble cause by the stereotype that all assassin's are automatically tanking noobs, this is definately not true
as a matter of fact i brought dash with me while doing missions and my group got mad at me cuz they said "its a waste of a skill" where as i was using it to get out of aggro and NOT tank, so what exactly am i supposed to do wen if i tank i get yelled at and if i try to escape i get yelled at? hmmmm
its ridiculously hard to get through the (imo boring and repetitive) factions campaign with a sin
also assassins r perfectly capable to laying down insane amounts of damage, i did 100 just yesterday to a lvl 21 enemy, and over 140 damage using a dual attack in the same area vs someone else
NOT ALL ASSASSINS ARE NOOBS, SURE SOME OF THEM WILL ATTEMPT TO TANK, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM, SO DONT COUNT OUT A VERY GOOD DAMAGE DEALER JUST CUZ OF THIS DUMB STEROTYPE!!! 
OMG!!!! THANK YOU!!!!! 
31 Aug 2006 at 22:33 - 22
To use an assasin takes skill, plain and simple. I have cap every elete skill for my sin, and completed both profeticey(which I can't spell today) and Factions. Yes even I thought that sins sucked before I played one.
All I can say is use henchies where possible and look for excepting groups, just explain to them that you practiced, and you realize that sins do not tank, but assist with killing off enemy casters, or finish off already damaged enemies or bosses. then they may be more willing to invite you. Also make sure you stay alive, the less you die and the more damage you inflict, the more players will reconized sins as a formable class.
My sin now can tear through anything, and die less often then most other tanks or players classes, and in pvp can destroy tanks 1V1, better then my W/Mo can.
I will admit however that monks hate sins, for one true reason, if not backed up by another monk in PvP, then that monk will die in less then 15 seconds by a good sin, and the fact that they get tired of healing/rezing sins that suck.
31 Aug 2006 at 22:42 - 23
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
If you wanted to play with barrage in the mid line, you should have rolled a Ranger. This goes for fast cast nukers too. You want to play an ele, go roll one. When I invite you on the team as a mesmer, I expect you to play one.
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lol this piece of work makes the next quote hilarious.
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Since when does "Play your class" mean "Play this particular cookie cutter build. ie "Play a necro" = "Play SS or MM", "Play an ele" = "Bring meteor shower, meteor, fireball etc"?
I really don't care what build you're playing, as long as we have damage, damage mitigation and a bit of healing somewhere along the lines in pretty much any form. I just care that you play your goddamn class.
Wow, contradiction ftl. Thats exactly what you made it sound like in your first post. You said if you want to use barrage then bring a ranger but a crit barrage sin can spread just as much damage to clumps as a Ranger. An FC Nuker can nuke just as well as an ele with more accuracy (nuking an area faster before aggro changes, maelstorming or MSing dangerous targets without long cast times).
If you weren't too busy being close minded maybe you would have realized this before you posted.
31 Aug 2006 at 22:42 - 24
I have seen a few good assasins and a LOT of bad ones. That's not a stereotype, that's my personal observations. I'd say out of a dozen or so I've seen 2 good ones. When they know what they're doing they're a high value party member. When they don't they're just a drain.
The bad ones think they can go toe-to-toe with a group of monsters and come out alive. They don't know that "hit and run" is better than "hit,hit,hit,and die".
My main char. is a healer, so I keep track of who is doing what and who is being slaughtered. When the 'sin starts taking damage it piles up quicker than I can heal. When the warrior takes damage it's manageable. Frankly, after a bit I don't even bother trying to heal or res the bad assasins. It's just a waste of my energy.
Maybe you shouldn't be mad at all the groups that won't take you-you should be mad at all the crappy assasins that give your profession a bad name.
NOTE: The above is for PvE- I'm sure PvP assasins rock, but I only PvE so I can't say from personal experience.
31 Aug 2006 at 22:56 - 25
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Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar
I will admit however that monks hate sins, for one true reason, if not backed up by another monk in PvP, then that monk will die in less then 15 seconds by a good sin, and the fact that they get tired of healing/rezing sins that suck.
pvp= ra? funny you mentioned it was better than your w/mo...
31 Aug 2006 at 23:04 - 26
I wont deny that Crit Barrage Sins are very good overall damage dealers, but lets get to the point of why people really use them in PvE, why people use FC Nukers, etc. They can't get a group otherwise. It's really gimping their primary proffession. If they can't get a group playing a mesmer or sin, why do they change their build to play something their secondary is? Why not just go roll the primary instead?
I would say that coming into my group and me forcing you to play your primary if you want to stay in sends a message out there that the class is just as usefull as any other. Dammit I think I lost my train of thought again.
31 Aug 2006 at 23:07 - 27
yea yea same old story...
I do have a Sin I have played through the game I have PvPed with him...
the Assassin class offers NOTHING that cannot be achieved by other classes with more success...
I dislike the Sin because I still believe they are missing something... no i really dont know what...
the class requires being played certain ways whether your a sucky player or a good player that to me makes the assassin suck... there really is no diversity in the class
pvp=good
pve=good till lvl 20 mobs then sucks alot any further...
the clas relies heavily on ciritical hits to be up to par... even energy management depends on criticals and they just get slammed when lvl 20+ mobs come alone the chance to land criticals drops dramatically and makes them shit...
I dislike how the assassin typically has to remove themselves from the fight more often then not to be effective... its rediculous haveing to pop in and out all the time it completely halves the amount of dmg a Sin is capable of
really all that i have to say about the assassin it they have the "capability" to be a damn good class and i dont care how well some people think they can play them... they are easily replaced and non desired because of how they are required to be played... and for that they will remain "capable" and be found "lacking"
this isnt a bash im speaking out of disapointment and sincerity... i had extremely high hopes for the class... but when i cant get into a group for days on end to complete the final 2 missions of cantha thats just sad... and when its imposible to get into groups for masters unless u have a guild willing to drag your ass through it just sucks... they cannot keep up without being pampered and supported the entire way... no assassin will be surviving a party slaughter to come back and save the team... but every other class has that ability...
31 Aug 2006 at 23:14 - 28
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Originally Posted by Conjure Pwntasm
Wow, contradiction ftl. Thats exactly what you made it sound like in your first post. You said if you want to use barrage then bring a ranger but a crit barrage sin can spread just as much damage to clumps as a Ranger. An FC Nuker can nuke just as well as an ele with more accuracy (nuking an area faster before aggro changes, maelstorming or MSing dangerous targets without long cast times).
If you weren't too busy being close minded maybe you would have realized this before you posted.
How is this a contradiction? Did I say Critical barrage is less effective than a Primary Ranger? Did I say a FC Nuker is less effective than a Primary Elementalist? No. I simply stated that if you're coming into my group, you play your primary. Playing a FC Nuker has the disadvantage of less damage but the advantage of more speed, other way around for a primary Ele.
It still doesn't matter, if you want to be in my group, you play your primary. Every other group around me will take a critical barrage sin because an actual assassin sucks obviously and of course the same with mesmers being fast cast nukers. You can't seriously expect either of those classes to contribute to the team, can you?
On top of that, if you wont play a mesmer or sin as their primary, why the hell are you playing one in the first place? If all you can do is spam barrage or throw fireballs on a clumped up group, why are you playing the profession that was made for shutting down/assassinating key enemies?
31 Aug 2006 at 23:28 - 29
Unfortunally i have only seen a handful of good assassins, one being me included. Some think so outside the box they try to be a minion master... which is wrong O_O
31 Aug 2006 at 23:39 - 30
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Originally Posted by sinican
y
1.) the Assassin class offers NOTHING that cannot be achieved by other classes with more success...
.....
2.) pvp=good
pve=good till lvl 20 mobs then sucks alot any further...
the clas relies heavily on ciritical hits to be up to par... even energy management depends on criticals and they just get slammed when lvl 20+ mobs come alone the chance to land criticals drops dramatically and makes them shit...
...
3.) this isnt a bash im speaking out of disapointment and sincerity... i had extremely high hopes for the class... but when i cant get into a group for days on end to complete the final 2 missions of cantha thats just sad... and when its imposible to get into groups for masters unless u have a guild willing to drag your ass through it just sucks... they cannot keep up without being pampered and supported the entire way... no assassin will be surviving a party slaughter to come back and save the team... but every other class has that ability...
Ok, allow me to poke a few holes
1) Show me another class in the game that can apply as many conditions as an assassin can without the aide of their secondary? The only condition that ISN'T in the assassin class is weakness
2.) Funny, my assassin never has energy issues
3.) I pugged or henched (personal choice, not because I couldn't find a party) a good 3/4 of Cantha. My assassin has Protector of Cantha, My assassin is currently 2.4% away from Max Cartographer of Cantha and I'm currently 2 missions from Protector of Tyria (Hell's Precipice and have to kill Glint). Guess what, during Abaddons Mouth, my assassin didn't die once, lost a couple henchmen but finished first run through. So, please show me a bit more details on why assassins suck, because if you play them right (you obviously don't if you've played one and think they suck so badly) an assassin is a very deadly addition to any party.
31 Aug 2006 at 23:48 - 31
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
But zero of those things are more effective in PvE than the corresponding primary classes.
Won't go into it further, as it's off-topic. I recommend you make another one.
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), and i was astounded by the prejudice(sp?) that already exsisted. It was like, the second week it had been out, and already no one would invite me in Minister Cho's at all.