Ladder Manipulation Investigation Results

Anet hasn't really have any justification to ban whoever for the ladder manipulation. Because they chose not to elaborate on the rules, people will abuse the loopholes.

Hell, there was a vague rule about scammers in the EULA. Not to cause distress to other players. Anet rarely took action against these people.

There were absolutely NO rules governing GvG about this type ladder manipulation. It's like getting arrested for a nonexistent law. What? You mean it's illegal to steal from a shopping mall? Of course not, and it's common sense. But some people don't follow common sense, sometimes they are even fully aware of their actions. Putting up rules and law doesn't discourage unfair gameplay. But it does GIVE YOU THE RIGHT to prosecute those abusing as such.

That's why it is so important to make sure you (Anet) have a detailed and foolproof rule system. Because the rules were vague or nonexistent people abused it. For that, you have absolutely no power to ban them, because TECHNICALLY they haven't broken any rules.

Do understand though that some of these guilds actually had pug guilds ready on there ventrilo servers and timing in spikes to enter matches at the same time. If a team honestly thinks they have no chance of winning, no there is no problem there; but there is a major problem when you are prepared to fight a specific target guild where it is premeditated to lose and give rating to one of the guilds. Some of these guilds are alpha testing guilds who are supposed to respresent the community in a positive form rather than set the bad role model example.

Of course this will be denied, but people need to understand that this isn't as much about random guilds resigning out rather than a premeditated plan like stated above.

Also, more than just those three guilds had info sent to Anet about them. It was anet's decision on who took the heavier end of this ordeal based on the severity of their actions.

I do believe though that clearity in the future is key, but like stated before, this won't solve the problem of guilds planning these acts outside of the guild wars servers where logs can be tracked.

I believe this time anet's eyes opened because apparently a huge chunk of the community had emailed anet their thought's and opinions of the situation. I myself probably would have sent in some info, but had no proof myself, but i am being up front and honest.

That's all that's needed to justify cracking down on any kind of fraud and unsportsmanlike behavior anyone can think of. People who think every infraction needs to be written down in minute detail should be asking themselves what the hell they're doing playing this game anyway.

You can't play in a competition flying under that statement up there and hope to get away with anything, nor can you complain afterwards that ANet did exactly what they stated: disqualify at their solo discretion.

They said they would.

They did.

Get over it.

This string of comments is going by so fast I can't even dare to catch up and read all of the posts... Too much quoting...too much speculation...too much of everything.

Oddly enough...I haven't even been a PvP player until about 2 months back with a character that is about a year old...but this whole affair has left a bad taste in my mouth. There is no question in my mind that at the time I am typing these words...that another two pages of remarks will have been made, but here goes:


1) If there was proof of ladder manipulation...why would these teams even have been allowed to continue in matches after the lock?

2) If these are high ranking guilds...why do we even hold their members in such high esteem?


I've started observing the matches in GvG and I'm constantly disgusted by the comments of people that 'such and such is wrong' and 'they know what they're doing' and all of the other backseat guilding. I feel like I'm constantly under watch from the W(hat) W(ould) (xxxxxxx) D(o)... And it just makes me hate PvP even more.

I can stand the people screaming 'n00b' and even the 'you don't know what you're talking about'.. But when players start referencing other players...as an edict from god...that's when I draw the line.

My interest in the naming of guilds is purely to discredit the fame that apparently certain players have gotten due to their rank in this system.. That may never happen...but I'd be a lot happier knowing the who and what of this situation...


Btw...If a guild smurfs...and gets more than one group within the top whatever...without actually resign fixing....the more power to them. Apparently those guys have more time and dedication to this game than anyone else out there...and as such...they should be rewarded... However...throwing a fight...is just lame.

In reference to the /resign spiking... If that's what it was...then just get a clue.. Throw a match by losing closely... As to the Don King reference...no fighter goes down in the first match (*edit* round)...and neither should any guild.. /resign is too obvious...you should expect smart guild players to act smarter than that.

If this post doesn't make any sense...then I'm sorry...but if it does...then I'm really happy.

this situation is very similar to steroids in sports. Once it becomes public, you begin to question every win and result. Anet can only do so much to stop it. It's up to us to not cheat.

And funny thing, like in sports, nobody in the pvp community is making a stand and saying they don't condone this behavior. Everyone is defending cheating.

Where are the top gvg guilds at? Why are they not defending their integrity?

Come on now... The first thing you mentioned was for a specific rule that was added later. People in this game should know that manipulating the ladder is against the rules. Its so blatantly obvious and the people doing it must know that its against the rules. People dont be stupid here.

Lets say I steal something and I'm caught, I shouldnt get off because it was a "first offense". Its a completely obvious rule that you dont steal from other people and in this case when you want to compete you agree that you understand the rules so theres no exceptions.

And by abusing loopholes, they have done nothing to earn a spot in the top 16. They are not one of the top 16, and therefore shall be removed.

This gives ANet the right:

I would prefer ANet spend their time resolving err7 issues, working on new content, fixing bugs, etc... instead of compiling exhausive lists to spell out what constitutes ladder manipulation to the utterly moronic.

And they weren't banned.

Any "dive" should be punished, and with A-nets logs they should be able to determin if foul play was involved.
But NO wrist slapping, because they happen to be among the top guilds.
And I don't care if the involved people know, or socialias with employes from A-net or are Alpha testers, they should be given a ban, and have the guild names published, so everyone knows them for the cheats they are.
You ban ppl for buying items for $ 5-30 but when champion ship is at stake you wrist slap.
Freaking Joke.
Bet the new's would have a field day with this kind of corruption.

That's like having a sport where it isn't written down that you can't punch the opposing team in the face, but people do anyways and one day the ref finally decides this is morally wrong. I mean, these athletes should have known punching someone in the face was wrong: you get suspended from school for doing it, your parents will ground you, you'll get arrested, whatever. But they've been doing it for so long, it's almost as the unwritten rule says the opposite as what is being enforced.

It's kind of unfair to them, even though they were breaking a rule, that you all of a sudden slap down a rule that wasn't in writing. All of this debate would not be here if this was written beforehand.

My bad, they weren't banned.

But then again,

Is a vague rule by itself.

Hell, if this forum were to be determined by the sole discretion of the moderators, we'd all get banned because this type of phrasing doesn't tell us jack about what constitutes a forum violation.

So far in that quote, only the sponsors know exactly what the definition and specificality of 'ladder abuse' really means. We are all still left in the dark here.

It seems to me that this is about as effective a warning as ANet could have come up with.

This was the perfect time to set the precedent of enforcing the rule during an actual season, instead of just saying, "Watch out next season, because we're going to start watching." We as players now know that they mean business with this umbrella rule against ladder manipulation, and no one really got hurt. Some teams didn't get the cape trims they thought they earned (but didn't) and that's the worst that happened. And now we know that these actions wont be tolerated.

It seems to me that this is exactly the warning that everyone is saying they should have given. Had they just said something about "we will enforce this rule next season" most people wouldn't have believed it. And then, when it actually mattered, when the top 16 guilds would go to the playoffs, and the rules is enforced, there would be even more of a negative reaction than there is now, and the guilds that broke the rule will lose far more than a simple cape trim that only lasts for one season.


That's what I think the real purpose of these disqualifications was. It sets the precedent that ANet takes this rule seriously. IT WILL BE ENFORCED, AND YOU WILL BE DISQUALIFIED. Make sure that you keep that in mind during the rest of the guild wars ladder seasons.

They had to wait until the damage was done until they decided to enforce it?

Seriously though: if you're feeding another Guild rating points then you are manipulating the ladder. There is no gray area in the cases of the guilds that got punished afaik. If you're asking another guild to take a dive when you're clearly losing a match then you are trying to manipulate the ladder.

Whether or not both parties agree in the deal is irrelevant, whether or not the guilds in question do it as an act of courtesy is irrelevant. Botomline is: it IS ladder manipulation in every sense of the word. The term 'ladder manipulation' isn't nearly as vague or problematic as 'free-will' or 'soul'.

While I will support more clear rules it is also obvious that these cases fall perfectly under the current rules. A list of more common punishable offenses would be nice but it's nonsense to claim that the guilds invovled weren't knowingly breaking that rule. The rule is vague, but all of these cases clearly fall under it.

1) Proof please? Until then please stop spreading such rumours. It seems to me this is a "your word against mine" type of thing. After the entire collection that your Guild was a huge participant in (from what I heard, Talla spent over 2 hours collecting and helping Chu Chu with screenshots and evidence of some sort) - remember though, that evidence wasn't what got us in trouble. We got in trouble for asking a team to resign out to us, which may have been wrong, but about 50% of the top 20 Guilds also did so.

2) I don't think it's fair for you to talk about ladder manipulation in any way when you control a top 20 smurf Guild, which one night your Guild went on to avoid playing us on their main, and actually try to actively tank us. While you can say we did the same to RenO, and I cannot disagree, I am being honest about the things we did. I'd personally say that that tanking was far more manipulative than asking a team to resign out to us. I'm also unsure of whether you guys wouldn't have asked BR to resign out had they not said "are you going to ask us to resign like QQ" after you started losing to them.

After what we believed as precedents were set in resigning out (it had never been acted on in the past) and requesting a Guild to resign out (which had also never been acted on in the past), is it fair to ban Guilds for doing the same with no warning? Yes on terms of the manipulation, but no on terms of what has happened in the past. Honestly, we thought we played this fairly in terms of what ArenaNet has done in the past. We were wrong, we accept it. But I'll be damned if I'm going to accept people thinking we're the one evil with no evidence of what has happened other than word-of-mouth.

Just a few issues here, I would ask you to comment on.

1) If a team is dominating the other, but has an error7, and the team that was losing starts winning purely because of the error7, is it ok for the team that was dominating to ask for the other team to resign?
2) If a team has collected 45~ DP in the first 10 minutes, and is forced to retreat, should they be forced to stay in the match until they are even DP'ed out or their Guild Lord is dead?
3) If another team has an issue with a Guild, and decides to make a mockery of them by DP'ing them out, should the team that is going to be DP'ed out be forced to stay in the match until they are DP'ed out or their Lord is dead?

Hmm, i think you should be allowed to resign any time you wish in these cases,

About the resigning, i'm 100% sure, if you have just the slightest bit of a jackass in your guild, he'd ask the other team to resign because they need their deer in GvG, they need to kill them so they'd drop ectos, they're a fame-farming service for this chap, etc.

What if a guild is so impulsive that they actually do this, someone sees it and reports you.

Imagine being kicked out of wearing your shiny cape & having to start all over again.

I'd like some comments on that one

(So, if you fight against a guild like that, you could force them to lose all their hard worked ranks, by having made some screenies?)

Cheers,

Avalon

In principle, I agree with you, Gaile.

However, I long ago learned that "principle" must be reconsidered when confronted by humans.

Yes, you *do* need to spell out *exactly* what contitiutes a violation, in clear and uncertain terms. Otherwise, your current "rule" leaves ANet open to accusations (however unfounded) of inconsistency and bias (as we see in this thread).

Sometimes, you write the rules to protect yourself.

I don't know why you are so persistent on defending yourselfs for these actions you deny. We had people in your vent when it happened with people from girl in the channel, I didn't know guilds like to be in the same channel in matches, sorry. Not to mention we know people from your guild were jumping in and out of ours too.

This doesn't even include the [love] resign outs where they did it at least 3 times, which we have in screenshots and words them saying that "of course we are going to resign out to them cuz we are in their alliance."

It seems to me qq thinks this is "fish singling us out." I've gotten random messages from people i don't even know after the situation saying they backed us up too and sent in any info they attained.

And on a personal note, i can't believe anything you say as you say my guildies who were in your guild that time HELPING qq get hundred's of rating were lying when you guys were talking behind our backs. You just seem like a pathological liar to me. It seems to me you are trying to keep everyone happy by lying but it just comes around full circle when you get caught. I really don't know how to trust you vanq, im sorry.


And on smurf notes, yes we did switch over to purp when we were tipped off you guys were going to go in on girl to tank us. But that's a worthless statement as it's speculation on us and you guys, for each guild saying that eachother was going in with intent to tank. Maybe we both just felt eachother were going to do that.


I am against smurfs personal, but yes i did play 2 matches with purp, which we both lost anyways. A few others and I in the guild want to get rid of purp all together. At least we didn't have an outlet to 2 different smurf/pug guilds at our disposal which were also floating around top20 trying to get top16 for silver capes to sell the guild.

A note we can both agree on though is that these rules do need to be clarified. They were bent by some guilds and anet finally took action. People complain about it being sudden, but it's better late then never. People were complaining so much about nothing being done in the past, now the guilds who got caught are complaining action was finally taken. They punishment isn't even severe, but can be set as an example of what can happen to come now. Hopefully this will be an extension in the future to prevent and stop these actions from happening.

People are trying to use ignorance and and lack of common sense to their defense, and with these being punishable rules, even the dumbest of people should have the rules put out to them in simple terms. I guess not everyone in the guild wars community uses their head for thinking.

If truly action was took only on the BR match, then yes, I don't agree with that, but there IS evidence of much more than that and that's why I don't agree with your statements.

Anet is entirely justified. The Guilds that manipulated the ladder should have known better not to, and they shall be punished accordingly. Those who request every rule be spelt out, they should read the sign:



It's about moral fibre.

Why didn't they do anything before?
Because this specific case didn't happen before.

Anet is drawing a hard and fast line about this now. If you think that they need to write this specific incident in the ELUA, then you should go ahead and repeat this incident yourself, and see exactly how guity they feel about taking appropriate action.

Anet is in the right.

so you broke the rules...

your excuse is that you didnt know it was against the rules and other people did it.....

so if you murder someone and say that you didnt know murder was against the law you go free?

if someone else jumped off a bridge you would too?

stop whining please you broke the rules so deal with the consequences.

I guess you can take a fall on hopscotch just fall down and say you broke you leg.rofl

Oh well so what some guilds play like who knows and a big SNFU hit oh well.

I had and still have no clue what is going on because the only time I am in pvp is when me and guildies decide we will full around and make all wammo partie and that such. From my point A-Net is making an example out of the guilds that went against the rules and showing that they will take action if you dont follow A-Nets law. Its simple I guess they did something wrong and they are currently or did get what they deserved.

This really doesnt concern any of us accept A-Net and the guilds disqualified, it isnt our problem so I suggest we all keep it that way and dont worry about it and learn from the wrong doer's actions.

What a sorry spectacle. If those who cheated were so sure they knew asking teams to take a dive was perfectly alright then asking Anet for a ruling ahead of time would have been the thing to do. They knew in their hearts what Anet would have said but they figured they would get away with it so why ask. Screw those low ranking noobs why should they take points away from us.

Those of you who think Anet should write every possible way of cheating down in some kind of rule book to avoid loopholes are dead wrong. The more law the more loopholes. Sure in real life you need a lot of complex laws because you might end up in the slammer without knowing why. This a game for crying out loud. If anyone who cheated can honestly look someone in the face and say what we did was perfectly ok then your parents missed something in your upbringing. When you go to a school do they hand out a manual on all the things that are considered cheating? Do a google on ethics, you might learn something.

This post can be located on TGH, here.

Twice. We played them 3 times, once they played the match and we won in 6 minutes. The other two times they resigned out. We didn't ask them to, they just did it. I think the only top Guild they didn't resign out to was you guys, heh. If you have those screenshots, why don't you report Love instead of us?

I wonder why we think this. Perhaps it's the fact that your status had someone's email in asking for everyone to send screenshots of people resigning to us in it. Or that your members went in #gwp straight after Te resigned out to us when they had all-but won the match and started a massive topic about it. Honestly, under the circumstances, I'd back you up too if I weren't in the Guild and knew what happened, but after I've informed people of the messages that took place between myself and Mike Gills, and it's been made clear that the "evidence" that was sent about resigns was not the reason we are having our cape trims removed, I would have thought that would be enough. Instead you seem intent on trying to make other people believe the reasons you believed yourself.

Famous and Custo guested for you, and were actually wanting to join you because we didn't feel we'd be competitive to get you high, too. Don't try and say this is only a one-way thing. We asked a couple of people to guest because we only have 6 people in our core for the duration of the fun season, since which we have increased it. We needed to get guests, and it just so happened that you guys wanted to guest. As for the talking behind your backs thing, that was stuff taken completely out of context and random mentionings were added to it to make it seem more dramatic. I haven't lied about a thing here, for the record.


No, not on girl. After you guys beat Te, we played unrateds with them 4 times. Norad and Smgzor were both guesting for these games, as was Duck on Flag Runner. Had we actually had a Runner with a degree of experience, we probably would've played rated on our main. We had never collectively played on girl, and it was clear we were playing on our main at the time. You guys switched onto purp to avoid getting hit with a 30 point rating swing if we happened to win the match, which never happened.

I think only 2 of us ever played on Love, and those were Famous and Tom. The time they did play, they tanked you guys, which sucks because every other top team they played they resigned out to, I think - not completely sure. That however, is Akari's Guild, not ours. As for girl, it was a complete gwp pug, and we only used it once, and happened to tank RenO when playing on it.

A note we can both agree on though is that these rules do need to be clarified. They were bent by some guilds and anet finally took action. People complain about it being sudden, but it's better late then never. People were complaining so much about nothing being done in the past, now the guilds who got caught are complaining action was finally taken. They punishment isn't even severe, but can be set as an example of what can happen to come now. Hopefully this will be an extension in the future to prevent and stop these actions from happening.

Not on our part, according to Mike. Considering he went through all the evidence, I'd say his decision on that's pretty much the clear one. What you guys think (rightly so, in my opinion - I'd think it too if I didn't know better) is reasonable. But like I said, I've just tried to correct myths about this, and let people know the true reasons behind the disqualification.

There is not evidence of anything other than asking BR to resign out. Asking. It never even happened. QQ did not manipulate the ladder in the least in that situation. We have been over this with Mike Gills for days, Animal, and I am telling you genuinely that there is no evidence of any actual ladder manipulation. QQ got capes taken away for "intent" to manipulate the ladder, which means that we wish we could have had free rating, rather than actually doing anything. I am a reasonable person, and had QQ actually done the least to change ladder rating, I would admit to it.

If you want to call out all top guilds on smurfs, then so be it, I would be glad to confess as long as the other top guilds did as well. Smurfing is a shame as is nothing but destructive to the community. However, it seems that if Anet will do nothing about it, a guild is better off winning with a smurf than losing to one. It is not an ideal situation, but every top guild seems to find itself giving in. That is another kind of ladder manipulation which should remain exempt from this conversation. If smurfing is discussed, then most every top guild would have their prizes taken away. Would I be okay with it? YES! I would be incredibly glad that they were making an attempt to put an end to it once and for all.

However, as it stands, the precedent that they are setting that says that a guild can be punished for ladder manipulation when they have not actually affected the ladder ratings or rankings at all seems ridiculous. Removing the prizes of several guilds seems just, but certainly not for the reason that they are doing it.

How are the Korean guilds favored by Anet? May you show some proof?

It's called bait and catch, if untrue which is most likely, it should be ignored. The statement that is, but if Anet acts upon responding to the statement in defensive arguement, then it can be considered that some if not all of the precieved statement is true. In other words don't add fuel to the fire.

Gaile Grey responded to my statement with an attack and complete denial of what I stated. To me that is a conformation to the statement. Guilty parties sometimes can't stop themselves from wanting to tell the truth about a secret, so instead of just coming out with it, they will tend to attack a person who makes a possible suggestion of that secret.

I will make a suggestion, an being just my opinion and not nessassary the truth, that if a top ranking korean guild did the same minipulation as say an american guild, that they may not be punished the same way, but only get a warning, as the american guild will recieve the worst punishment. the parent company in located in korea, for Anet, and people tend to take care of their own.

Just my opinion, could be totally wrong, maybe, then again maybe not.

Good post. QFT

I don't like how Gail is so good at avoiding the question, of why was action taken aginst these guilds, and not aginst war machine.

I would aslo like to know, why nothing has been done to war machine yet.

It was common knowledge that these guilds did what they did, asking for proof is so irrelevant. The Rules were unclear and too vague.

Even if u didn't know, I am telling you now, go check your logs the war machine smurf camped below 100 all ladder season, quiting and resiging to avoid making observer mode and revealing thier build.

You already have the Proof, and you have to investigate, NOT ME! Don't tell me to do a full season of scouting and snooping for free when It your responsibility to do the job in the first place. If you want to hire me to look for abuse, then and only then will I do that job for you, because it is your job to police this ladder not ours.


If you will not penalize War Machine then leave these guilds alone and make a retraction.

When dealing with ladder rules you need a mantra of consistancy and fairness, as of this time u have neither.

I appreciate your post, woulda been much easier if vanq had went the route you did rather than dissect my posts and add his 2 cents for everything I say. I also agree with everything you said in the second paragraph.

I'm sure then you could understand where we were coming from, when everything just seemed so suspicious as if all linked together. Especially when some people "told" us (possibly lied to us then) that some of that stuff was going down. You here 2 sides and you don't know who to believe, that's how it was in my position at least.

btw, i still <3 you guys regardless on some of your feelings about fish :P

Soo.... because we didn't agree to resign, that makes it all okay?

QQ seems to be living up to there tag quite well.

If you break the rules then take the punishment and move on. Put an emphasis on not repeating history instead of trying to shift blame or making it personal.

It dosent matter what guild X did, it matters what your guild did. Grow a pair and take responsibility for your guild.

But the guild in effect hasn't done anything yet. They were disqualified for the intent of manipulating the ladder. It's like throwing a man in jail just because he said he wanted to kill you, but hasn't really done anything wrong yet.

Kinda reminds me of minority report, ya know...

Are you serious? You actually believe that Anet would engage in active RACISM over a game rules violation? You have GOT to be KIDDING. I find it difficult to believe that there are people like you in the game.

This thread is ridiculous. We pay for a license to play this game according to Anet's rules. Nobody can play without accepting them. Anet received a variety of 'proofs' related to possible ladder manipulation. They, as is their right, decided that a punishment was warranted, and they meted it out. BFD.

Nobody got banned. Nobody lost a loved one. The guilds will be back and beating people left and right again. Smurf guilds will not go away; they're a part of the game. Some guilds will continue to ask for resignations. Some guilds will accept. Some guilds will offer resignations. I can't personally understand why any of those three things would occur in a competitive game like GW (I have won too many games even with a major morale deficit to give up), but they do, and we all have to deal with 'em. If they cross the line to ladder abuse, there should be consequences.

As for people calling for Anet to specifically list what constitutes ladder abuse, if I were them, I'd say fuggetaboutit. If you play the game competitively, you aren't engaging in ladder abuse. Seems like a pretty easy 'rule' to follow. Frankly, none of the punished guilds needed to do a damn thing other than play their normal high level of game in order to achieve success and gold/silver trim. None of them needed to participate in 'ladder manipulation' at all.

It all depends in the manner it was said. Perhaps the guild were being sarcastic in their guild chats about the ladder.

Guy1: "Wow, this ladder competition is tough"

Guy2: "We could win by telling the other guilds to quit, lol"

Guy1: "Lol! Good one!"

Guy2: "Lmao!"

Anet: OMFG a conspiracy to manipulate the ladder! *disqualify*

Well, it does sound ridiculous, but you get the idea... I could tell a friend "I will kill you" but it would hardly sound like a death threat to him.

Depends on the context

If BR had quit...QQ would have, in all probability, solidified #1. Asking them to resign is blatent BS and Nub to the core.

QQ has more than enough talent and pugs to just win it all the right way. Why try to steal rating from other guilds?

It wasnt a random opponet either. It was a dangerous Ranger Spike on its home map (ranked much lower), and in the last hours of a ladder with 3 teams single digits away from #1.

Hey

I have read the whole post, because it is so interesting and it pretty much could effect our guild too. I just would like to ask for clarification on a simple question.

When is it allowed to resign at all?

It seems to me based on the discussion presented so far, that no matter in which circumstances you use resign you anyway manipulating the ladder.
- Someone asks you to resign: you manipulate the ladder.
- You ask someone to do the same: manipulating the ladder.
- Either party just resigns because they had err7 or they are nice guys and dont want to give -25 to some team due to smurfing (which is admittedly hard to prove): manipulating the ladder.

Or how would it happen? Anet says that if you had err7 you are allowed to resign and let the other win? Then some people would just start accidentally lagging out and we are in same position.

It seems to me that /resign is not allwed to use at all, cause in any circumstances it is ladder abuse? or am I wrong? why was then it developed then to the game. When can you use it?

I bet there are couple of answers to this question which might be all right. but dollars to donuts the answers will not be the same -> Which means it is not clear for anyone what can be or cant be done -> which means it requires clarification.

I am posting very rarely, but I feel I must say this here also because anet apparently watches people opinions (which is absolutely great!) even if they have their own agenda: I feel we are a honest guy, we never cheat! But in this case we cant be sure any more what counts as cheating and what doesnt.

I agree with those persons who requires clear rules and guidance on the allowed options. It is not because anyone wants to generate extra work to anet (of which they have aplenty I am sure), just because what is clear for some might not be clear for others and it doesn't mean those guys are cheaters.

I just want to say that rules are unclear and with all due respect to Gaile I do not agree with his position occupied that "rules are sort-of self-explanatory and should be clear for all persons with appropriate ethical sense".

I believe those generic statements about "sportsmanship" etc were fine so far. But now punishments has been issued to some, and it hasn't been issued to some other who did the same (and everyone - I mean everyone - knew about it). Generic rules are not satisfactory any more. I don't like either the excuse: "we haven't received any proof about any other games". Well, go and get one yourselves. Your game, control it.

Easy, when the other team asks you to resign out so they can get skill pins, then it's ladder abuse.

Unfortunately this thread has become a shouting match. While I hate to close a frontpage thread, I believe people have stated their minds. Stated why they believe it was ladder maniupulation or not. ArenaNet and Gaile Gray have given us thier answer and information and I believe there is nothing more forthcoming from the devs and the shouting match will continue. So it's time for this thread to close.