Why do MMOs get casters wrong so often?

In the early MMOs the deal was that because of the lower armor the casters would have tons of fire power. The problem was casters became over powered and so later MMOs saught to balance this. Only now they have gone to the other side of the spectrum. I keep seeing more and more MMOs where Melee characters are quickly becoming king. When you have almost equal damage, speed buffs, and more armor it does tend to unblance things.

Guilds Wars can be an example of this. Warriors tend to be some of the best damage in the game, but they also have the best armor in the game. They also have stances to catch up to Kiters. Now Guild Wars isn't nearly as bad at this compared to a few other games I have played, but I am just currious why this is? It just seems like the early days of MMOs have scared the crap out of programers to the point that they continue to get the idea of the caster completely wrong. If you lose armor you should make up for it in damage yet it is almost never the case.

I don't know, but when was a warrior able to do 119 points of damage to all monsters in one area with one shot.

Triple chop!

In theory, yes you'd think high armor low damage, low armor high damage.

However, this really doesn't work in reality. Casters, frankly, are NOT damage dealers. (Aside from eles, but even they don't make effective damage dealers imo)

Instead casters have a wide array of spells that have more subtle effects. Mainly buffs, hexes, and various other types of spells. When used correctly, these can be much more effective at destroying an enemy then raw damage.

Melee's really are the backbone to most games. The warrior class, above all else, is a good foundation for any team. This is less true in guild wars, but definately can be seen in other games.

The Warrior has high armour and high dps because they have to be in the front line to deal their damage. This way, they are easily shut down by kiting, cripple, blind, snares, body blocking etc. 1v1 terms a Mesmer is much more powerful than a Warrior due to degen, snares, blind and hexes that stop dps in its tracks. And this is only the offensive shutdown for a warrior. You've got enchantments like Aegis, guardian, rof and wards for snaring as well as evasion.

Give a caster equal or better DPS to a warrior and they would be overpowered. You don't need to be in their face, you can sit there and happily throw fireballs at your enemy without being in range of harm.

You do realise that a direct smiting monk can take out warriors and assassins one vs one? Not something you would expect I would say. You don't even have to move.

It's not just damage and armour.

It's damage, armour and energy.

Why do you call the way casters are portrayed "wrong"? Are you simply basing it on some early MMO's? Who's to say those games were right?
Guild Wars has created a nice role for casters in my opinion. It would seem that alot of people start playing an elementalist and think they are going to be able to nuke everything on the map without giving it a second thought. Casters can do alot of damage, you just have to be smart about it. Just ask anyone who runs obsidian spike or fast cast air spike.

Melee may have the best damage and armor...or so it seems to you...but that does not mean it's going to win a fight against casters.

Melee is only good for doing high spike damage. While caster's damage is constant. Both warrior and assassin have spike dmg that can kill in 5 seconds (with no healing)

On the other hand, damage and hp is not the only 2 numbers that determines the result of the game.

Think D&D. A first level wizard, will have much more efficiency when casting sleep to disable, than casting burning hand to do damage.

Actually, in Guild Wars, Warriors have the highest DPS while casters are better for spike damage.

This isn't D&D so the 'point' is void.

Every game has it's own take on how the different classes work.

Yes ofcourse, cuz in reality a meteor shower would give only minor burns.
Oh and so does burning....

In reality a warrior wouldnt be able to get close to a "dmg dealing" caster...
Not like the gws eles anyway...

But, this is a game afterall, and we just have to hope that eles (mainly for me anyways) will get thier glory days back. Umm, are they the only truely nerfed casters btw?

Every class has its stregnths and weaknesses. melee gets higher armor because its ment to be on the frontlines fighting. most of your casters are ment to be your midline/backup support for your melee characters, with most monks and rits in backline supporting the team.

Oooh...please don't let this turn into another "elementalists do no damage" debate. There are so many arguments about this. Whoever said that you just need to know how to run your character is absolutely right...If your character is not effective you're not playing it the way it is designed be played. I use air magic with my elementalist and I move from one enemy to another spiking the crap outta them...works fine for me.

The game defines what is right or wrong, not your preconcieved notions. Casters do deal plenty of damage in GW, just not as directly as melee. AoE smiters, Tainted necros, these archetypes can create a lot of damage.

What caster doesn't have a way to shutdown warriors, or at least stop their dps/spike?

Mesmer: Plenty of hexes, distortion.
Ele: Flash, snares.
Necro: Curses
Rit: Shadowsong, defensive spirits.
Monk: Protection...

What do warriors have to shutdown casters?
A few interrupts, of which only distracting blow gets frequent use,
and knockdowns, which while definately a good shutdown, requires either a lot of skills to chain, or can provide only very temporary shutdown.

There are more factors than armor and damage. I'd lump the others into "range" and "utility". Typically range lowers armor and utility lowers damage, but they all interact in rather interesting ways. As for your statements about casters doing little damage, I don't exactly have the time right now to write out and explain what I mean, but a game where elementalists are a more viable damage threat than warriors is not a fun game.

A melee centric game is far more interesting and has many more layers of depth than teams of casters playing dodgeball with each other (it gets really retarded when using no-LoS skills). I admit this is more in context of GW as I have not really played other online games of the sort.

@OP

Out of Content of GuildWars.

I think with mmo's in general there is a shift to make things a bit easier or shorter quests due to the way people want to play.

The vein of thought is I'll make a war and just go kill things with my high damage, high armor, and high health easier to attract more people (and to a degree less skill). This also appeals to the pre-teen ppl who like to *pwn* and call people *noobs* because there so *leet*. Again this is a general not specific to GW.

I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play a war, it's just a bit easier then the other jobs depending on the build.


In regards to GW - I do see your point about how easier it is to play a war vs other jobs and how newer games tend to have a tank like easy to play and there high power but in regards to Gw, they do a great job of making all the jobs have advantages / disadvantages and there tend to be on par with the war.

Why is this thread still open, again? Far more constructive ones have been locked on sight.

I quite like the point the person made. That person with the crying girl in his avatar. Yeah, that was a good point

Except an axe warrior can do more spike damage than any other character in the game within a short time span. Thats why adrenal spike works so well and everyone doesn't use ele spike.

I'd have to say that hands down, warriors are the easiest class to shutdown in GW. They can't hit you if they can't see you, they can't hit you if they can't catch you and it doesn't matter much if they hit you if they are killing themselves in the process.

maybe because the mods havent' caught it yet.

regardless, read here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319

far more insightful than anything that will be posted here. Learn2search.

Warrior has highest dps (both for spike and pressure) and uber armor but only that. Casters has range (huge advantage) and more possibilities. Warrior might have big axe but it's very difficult for him to kill monk without, lets say, mesmer's help. Mesmer itself isn't able to do much damage other than spike - but is capable of making enemy unable to do anything. Single necro can prevent whole buch of warrior from doing anything and degen them slowly. Ele can blind, spike, protect with wards, deal huge AoE in pve/HA. Rt can protect whole team.

I wouldn't say that casters are underpowered in any way. Have you played same Guild Wars as me? Warriors has huge damage - but's that's good, cause they are WARRIORS after all - it's their job. Casters has all othe things - they both are needed for competent team. That's gw way.

Use Earth magic and you see how Warrior can't hit you very well.

Its called using outside mediums as a way to express a point, btw. By definition, they are not whatever you are refering to, but they do relate.

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On to the matter, theatrically and in various forms of literature, anyone adept with magic typically were not physically resiliant.

I can think of numerous examples of "wisened old men" as examples of masters of their art, within their setting.

Equally, in various mediums, social-based and learned spell casters tend to view physical violence as "brutish" and "uncivilized."

Then there is the physical things to take in mind, a person devoting himself to a knowledge-based art isn't going to have time to phsycially condition himself to the requirements that would hold true for someone needing to wear a lot of heavy armor.

They countered-acted their vulnerability by having access to arcane powers that surpassed human capability.

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Thematically at least, a magic user was dominant from afar, or when prepared and only lasted as long in melee as it takes the swordsman to swing his blade.

Now of course, a prepared magic user specifically with anti-combat in mind, is a completely different issue.

All in all, I believe ANet has done a good job of mixing thematic elements with fair play for a game.

Here casters are powerful from afar, but unless they specifically prepare for anti-melee, they die quickly.

Agreed. Melee classes are simply the easiest to shut down.

I somewhat agree on the classic "Mage" stereotype being more powerful but fragile. The old Gandalf-style wizard. Perhaps GW will oneday see a class like that, since the Elementalist doesn't really fit that role. The Eles are quite versatile and can be tanks, hexers, nukers, and spikers. Maybe what we need is an arcane Mage-type class that dishes out insane damage, but actually have less armor than typical casters. Maybe they get damage boosts by lowering their AL... hmm...

I've been watching your arguements for "a bit", and they all seem to
be based on... well, nothing.

I don't know what to make of this thread. My "spiker" can easily
do as much damage as my "nuker".
But when it comes down to "show time" , my nuker is the "belle of
the ball" every time.
Same person, doing the same amount of damage in the same amount
of time... it all comes down to showmanship... the nuker wins.

If they were then why do so many guilds like warriors? Frankly I find it easier to shut down a caster who has to stay still for 3 seconds than at target that can move around while doing comparible damage.


Yet the idea was originally of elementalist was similar to the class Wizard type. The issue is where speed kills. Even though they might be doing small quanities of damage compared to some casters; they attack faster so they end up doing more damage.

Range is not so big in Guild Wars. They are so many anti-kite methods in use (Gale, Cripple, Sprint, ect.) that is almost destroys the advantage of range. Let's face it, casters really don't have a ton of speed buffs compared to warriors. The buffs they do have you have to stop to cast which really underminds the idea of getting more speed. Sure when a warrior is by himself you can slow him down and kite him, but with a monk backing him it is a whole different story.

in GW everything is a tradeoff.
warriors are more or less, easy as hell to shut down. however, NOT shutting down a warrior is a HORRIBLE mistake, as a warrior who is allowed to run rampant without any countermeasures will make VERY short work of your casters, and your team will very quickly dissolve.
but, their damage makes them a target for disruption. a tank build is easy and midless to play, but to play an effective offensive warrior is one of the hardest jobs in GW.
yes, adrenal spikes do a lot of damage, but warriors are so easily countered that they ahve to wait a substantial amount of time before they use them...the circumstances have to be massivly in their favor, as a single condition, hex, enchantment, spirit, ward or kiter can make whatever skills you throw at your enemy useless.
caster-spikes arent as easily countered, but the caster themself goes down faster. again, its a tradeoff, and gw has probably more substantially different builds than any mmorpg ive ever played...and i have played many. usually it will be 2 teams with a nearly identical build duking it out, and the first to mess up is the first to lose. in GW, most of the time, not only are you worrying about individual skills, but if your team as a whole cannot counter any number of situations you will end up in a mass-grave very, very quickly.

overall, i'd have to say each class in GW is about equally difficult to play, so, how then, do you judge which is most difficult to excell in? compare them to the average.
in my experience at least i'd have to say, that the difference in skill required to breech the gap between an "average" and "excellent" player is greatest with assassins or warriors (monks in a close third). the VAST majority of warriors suck, and the VAST majority of assassins suck.
the less popular a class gets, the higher-quality you will see in the average day to day player, since the idiots tend to gravitate towards the classes they see as "uber." thats not to say eles, rits, necros, rangers and mesmers dont have their share of idiots, but to varying degrees they are less popular than these three. i'd hazard a guess that 99% of the time ive pugged an assassin or warrior, i've regretted the situation. with monks, probably 70% of the time; but i only pug monks in higher level areas (most monks after ember light camp or tahnakkai are safe). eles after monks, but usually its semantics; an ele using AOE when they shouldnt, as opposed to a general lack of skill. necros are pretty bad too, but unlike with monks, warriors and assassins, its very easy to determine if they know what they are doing, as most necs will advertise their build, and you can more easily pick and choose. by far, i (overall) have the least problems with pug mesmers. rangers and rits are usually pretty decent too...these are 3 classes that are not very "obvious," so they are usually a turnoff to people who dont know their crap.
the only reason monks are in third, and not seccond, is that people who suck at monking usually give it up after a while...meanwhile people who blow with warriors and assassins somehow manage to convince themselves they they are in fact good at what they do...
personally, if i'm making a group and i can choose only 2 players of any class from my alliance or guild to support; it would be 1 guild monk and 1 guild warrior, then pug or hench the rest.

Actually people do still use ele spike. When I said that a caster spike is better than a warrior spike, I didn't mean damage wise. With Warrior's being easier to shut down, their spike is easily killed before it happens due to being able to see a big metal creature with a huge axe running up to you. Casters however have the benifit of range and it's tough to actually see where those lightning orbs or obsidian flames are going to go exactly until they're let off.

And for the reason why the top guilds still use warriors? They're damage dealers none the less. The monks prepare for the shutdowns and remove the hexes and conditions that would stop a warrior's damage while you've got the other classes in the build doing their best to assist the warrior's damage by:

A. Shutting down the enemy warriors to allow your monks to focus on the warriors instead of the rest of the group.
B. The enemy casters who are shutting down your warriors.
C. Making it easier for the warriors to get up to their target for a kill.
D. Any combination of the above.

When you see this, you realise how correct Ensign was when he talked about Warriors and Monks being the two main classes in the game while all the others are standing around to assist those two classes.

I'd say in "reality" a warrior can do more damage than an ele! 1 swing with an axe and the head is rolling on the floor! Thats quite a bit of damage imo!

Of course, in 'reality' (my reality, at least), there are no such thing as an individual that could magically coerce meteors to fall from the sky.

Although, in this reality, a good Ranger could kill someone in one hit with a well-placed arrow. Of course, if they couldn't get it on the first, maybe the second hit, well that Warrior's axe would cut them down faster than they could say "I'm using Ignite Arrows!"

And that is why you should never go "But in reality..." when trying to make a serious argument in a game that has DRAGONS, METEORS ON COMMAND, and HALF-ORC DRAGON ZOMBIES. (Ok, that last one is a stretch.)

Point being, "reality" is not something to base an argument off of, especially one involving how much damage a class "should do," since almost all of them have moves that "should" "in real life" insta-kill someone. (Axe to the face, meteor to the face, arrow to the face, suck all your blood out, make you shine purple until you die, blah blah blah, etc.) And now that this thread has degenerated this far, it shall be closed.