Vamp Or AP - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

14 Sep 2006 at 23:54 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

1. Conventional wisdom: Vampiric is "constant" damage, while Sundering is garbage.

Corrected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

The data in my post show both types of damage as having wildly variable results. Also both types show occasional high-value hits that you could refer to as "spikes" (although I made no statements about spiking). So basically, neither type is "constant", and both types "spike".

Er... Logic says hi, and wonders why you haven't called recently.

The the "occasional high damage hits" with a Vamp have nothing to do with the vamp, it is the weapon landing a Crit. The same goes for Sundering, except you will also get slightly higher damage when Sundering triggers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

2. Conventional wisdom: Vampiric is better than Sundering over time. - In my tests, the time - as in the number of hits x the hits per second - was essentially the same for both types. Neither one gave any indication of being better over time, they each took the same number of hits to kill the target. If it takes a longer time to show the difference than it does to kill the target, the difference is meaningless.

Not really, it's called being thorough in your testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

3. Conventional wisdom: Sundering is worse versus stronger armor. Using the calculations, that some people do, leads to the "conventional wisdom" that sundering is more effective against "softer" targets and the effectiveness of Sundering goes down as the armor level goes up. However, in direct contradiction of this, all the tests I've done, in addition to the ones I posted, show Sundering to be more effective against "harder" targets.

Logic just downed a bottle of vodka and jumped out of a fourth floor window.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Sundering to be better against higher ALs than Vampiric. The damage bonus of Sundering IS MITIGATED BY ARMOR, the damage bonus from Vampiric is NOT. Therefore as armor scales up Sundering will get worse, whilst Vampiric stays constant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I am willing to accept that more tests would be better, but, in all this discussion, I have yet to see anyone else post the results of their own tests. I have yet to see anyone explain why my test data does or does not support their case.

Mostly because this information has been repeatedly and tested by respected members of the community, and it is quite honestly mind boggling that someone could come in and throw some arbitrary numbers around stating that Sundering is suddenly decent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Why are the values I get all over the map instead of "constant" for Vampiric and "spikey" for Sunder? (Could it be that the chance/probabilty factors are not taken into account in the "formulas" and, therefore, the formulas are inaccurate?)

Critical hits...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Why doesn't Vampiric show up as clearly superior to Sundering, if it so truly is?

Your testing is flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

And, as I keep saying - try it yourself!

Dozens have, as this argument has been brought up thousands of times since release.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

By the way, I'm not trying to convince any of the pro-vamp die-hards about this. They seem to have an almost religious zeal for this subject, and I think if the programmers for ANet said differently, they'd argue with them too.

It is a religious zeal to keep misinformation and trash off this forum.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

15 Sep 2006 at 00:45 - 82

LOL..quality JR absolute quality

Spike

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

In front of my PC

Kai

E/Mo

15 Sep 2006 at 00:55 - 83

If the Warrior's Might blessing from avatars of Balthazar stack with the other skills you mentioned savio it would in fact be possable to get to 70% AP.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

15 Sep 2006 at 01:30 - 84

Actually, now that I glance over Quaker's data, it's inconsistent at several points.

1. There is no way that sundering triggered on all of your critical hits for bow sundering #1. From your numbers it looks like you used Judge's Insight or Primal Rage for the first test. (Or else you had an almost unbroken run of sundering triggering.)

2. Vampiric life steal would not be multiplied by a +15% damage modifier, so your first set of vamp bow numbers are wrong.

3. You don't list what attributes you use for the sword tests, it's 16 swords from what I can see. I don't see how you could've gotten a 64 in sword 60 AL vamp #2 unless again you were running JI or Primal Rage. (Or somehow a weapon with both sundering and vampiric.)

I honestly don't know where the hell you pulled the "conventional wisdom" from, except your own flawed assumptions.

Sundering for spiking? I already stated it twice, it's not.
Wildly variable results? It's called a damage range, those numbers listed underneath the weapon name. Unless you're using a CC weapon, damages will vary.
Spikes? Critical hits. READ.
Not testing over time? How can you make any statement regarding what does more damage over time if you refuse to test damage over time? In any case, a lot of enemies do something called healing, which essentially means they don't flop over when you do 480 damage to them.

Until you read up more about the game, or at least go back and test with more hits and less "I'm pulling 20% AP out of nowhere," nobody's going to take you seriously.

Spike:
No, it wouldn't. Read Armor penetration to see how it stacks. Basically, if the number doesn't have a + in front of it, it won't stack with other numbers that don't have a + in front of them. So if you have 16 Strength, Primal Rage, and Warrior's Might, the game will only use the highest number, in this case Primal Rage. Sundering and Judge's Insight will add onto whatever AP you have.

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

15 Sep 2006 at 22:49 - 85

Doesn't vamp show up as it's own -5 damage?

Nanood

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Supermans Crystal Palace

Legion Of The Dark Sun

15 Sep 2006 at 22:55 - 86

Vamp FTW !

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

15 Sep 2006 at 23:36 - 87

ooh ooh! Im a zealot!

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

15 Sep 2006 at 23:38 - 88

Wouldn't zealots use zealous instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Doesn't vamp show up as it's own -5 damage?

It shows up as its own -5, but it's not damage.

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

15 Sep 2006 at 23:48 - 89

I do prefer zealous as a matter of fact

unless im spiking... then its vamp
I personally think this has run its course, there is in FACT no 'best' mod there are 'best for x' mods though, in theory heehee
most damage/time with physical award goes to: vamp
most expensive and therefore it must be good award: sundering (ok its sexy on a ctrl-click in a party of 'wammos' too)
most useful for longevity and staying power for anyone but a pure adrenaline warrior: zealous
and since Im a ranger: best utility goes to: crippling string

Spike

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

In front of my PC

Kai

E/Mo

15 Sep 2006 at 23:49 - 90

Ah yes Warrior's Might blessing does say it gives you a BASE 10% AP not a BOUNS 10% AP. Oh well. BTW that link you gave savio in another thread to that page all about the combat stats and how damage is worked out was most intresting thanks for that. My Vote for best overall mod would have to goto Elemental ones and probley a fire one at that.

beta man

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2006

R/E

16 Sep 2006 at 00:08 - 91

i prefer sundering/elemental switching combo mod to vamp mod because i dont see much difference in the dmg output and secondly due to experience playing as a monk, i hate warriors with vamp mod because during a pvp battle, a warrior cannot be constantly hitting something, they are almost always blinded by some spells or signet hence cannot hit anything and over time degen counts. Hey its common that in a pvp match the warrior was blinded, slowed down or being kited throughout the whole match that they are not hitting anything but due to degen, u are helping the enemies.

now me the monk have to toss a 5 energy healing spell just to cover the warrior degen, and 5 energy is ALOT when u are in the heat of a battle. well if i dont heal him when he degens to 75% health, he became a easier target and could be spiked. And now, imagine a 8man team with 2-3 warriors with vamp mod is this advisable?? Do u monk like it? And do u actually see any matches where all their meelee class uses a vamp mod?

dont tell me stuff like a warrior should switch weapon IF HE IS BLINDED/SLOWED DOWN/KITED , now this is bs,lol. switch weapon when not fighting is easy, switch weapon when a warrior got blinded/slowed down/kited? that is not good advise anyway. there are more important things like positioning and such to worry about then wasting ur brain power energy to worry about the vamp degen.

PVE wise, why even use vamp mod or sundering mod? anything goes. u would prolly complete a mission/quest with a difference of like a few seconds anyway if either one is indeed better.

PS: so my conclusion is don't use vamp mod not beneficial or even productive

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

16 Sep 2006 at 02:15 - 92

To everyone saying there isn't much difference...

Too lazy to link to the post at team iq: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

Now, can we close this thread before more people like Beta Man, Spike, and Quaker come in and start posting more misinformation? Please? It has pained me to read some of the posts on this thread...

Dante the Warlord

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

W/R

16 Sep 2006 at 02:53 - 93

Please ive been fighting about this for so long...SUNDEING VS. VAMPIRIC... PERSONAL PREFERENCE!!!!!! thats all... if ur lazy and rich, get sundering...into the game and on the edge and a risk taker use vampiric

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

16 Sep 2006 at 03:01 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Please ive been fighting about this for so long...SUNDEING VS. VAMPIRIC... PERSONAL PREFERENCE!!!!!! thats all... if ur lazy and rich, get sundering...into the game and on the edge and a risk taker use vampiric

Sundering is crap. End of story. Unless you can prove to us that they're equal... Which is impossible...

Oh, and there's no 'risk' involved with Vampiric unless you're absolutly retarded.

beta man

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2006

R/E

16 Sep 2006 at 03:32 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

To everyone saying there isn't much difference...

Too lazy to link to the post at team iq: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

Now, can we close this thread before more people like Beta Man, Spike, and Quaker come in and start posting more misinformation? Please? It has pained me to read some of the posts on this thread...

i m not saying vamp cant dish out more dmg, i m just saying it does not benefit the team as a whole. so i m suggesting a sundering/elemental mod and not a vamp. which player in the game actually stands there and let u happily hack away?
ok, put it in ur way, vamp is good, can do more dmg, true, that is when u are hitting those practice target in battle isle i cant argue that.

but, like i said, when u are blinded, slowed down, kited most of the time as a warrior, i don't see anything good with that "uber leet" +3 constant dmg when you cant hit anything and degen-ing ur health to help the enemies and waste your monk energy to heal u. let me repeat again that 5 energy is A LOT to waste when you are in the heat of the battle and vamp -1 degen ADDS UP over time.

i m merely giving my point of view as i monk a lot. vamp doesn't help your team overall, its a burden.
vamp "+3 uber leet armour ignoring dmg", looks good on theory with those zero point something percent blah blah, but impractical at all.

please read my post carefully.

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

16 Sep 2006 at 03:39 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

i m not saying vamp cant dish out more dmg, i m just saying it does not benefit the team as a whole. so i m suggesting a sundering/elemental mod and not a vamp. which player in the game actually stands there and let u happily hack away?
ok, put it in ur way, vamp is good, can do more dmg, true, that when u are hitting those practice target in battle isle i cant argue that.

but, like i said, when u are blinded, slowed down, kited most of the time as a warrior, i don't see anything good with that "uber leet" +3 constant dmg when you cant hit anything and degen ur health to help the enemies and waste your monk energy to heal u.

i m merely giving my point of view as i monk a lot. vamp doesn't help your team overall, its a burden.

please read my post carefully.

I daresay I monk more than you. I've spent close to 1600 hours on a monk. I get pissed off when I see a warrior with sundering, it means that they don't have a clue how to do their job and are scrubs. Seriously, if you think 1pip of degen adds anything to your energy burden you're clueless. It gets cleaned up with heal parties, heal sigs etc.

beta man

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2006

R/E

16 Sep 2006 at 03:57 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I daresay I monk more than you. I've spent close to 1600 hours on a monk. I get pissed off when I see a warrior with sundering, it means that they don't have a clue how to do their job and are scrubs. Seriously, if you think 1pip of degen adds anything to your energy burden you're clueless. It gets cleaned up with heal parties, heal sigs etc.

lol, using a high energy cost heal party as a monk to "clean up" -1 pip degen on a warrior with vamp mod and its no problem? i nearly fell off my chair reading that. allright i gave up, i m staying out of this. don't bother to reply to my msg, will not be coming back to this thread as i have said my opinions for the readers. don't want to get too personal and would rather focus more on the issue.

stop making urself look silly

peace out.

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

16 Sep 2006 at 04:03 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

I daresay I monk more than you. I've spent close to 1600 hours on a monk. I get pissed off when I see a warrior with sundering, it means that they don't have a clue how to do their job and are scrubs. Seriously, if you think 1pip of degen adds anything to your energy burden you're clueless. It gets cleaned up with heal parties, heal sigs etc.

Having logged over 2000 Hours on my Monk in PvP, that's very much QFT.

If Healing Signet or Heal Party can't take care of ~50 life lost per minute, there's somthing very, very wrong...

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

16 Sep 2006 at 04:13 - 99

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

lol, using a high energy cost heal party as a monk to "clean up" -1 pip degen on a warrior with vamp mod and its no problem? i nearly fell off my chair reading that. allright i gave up, i m staying out of this. don't bother to reply to my msg, will not be coming back to this thread as i have said my opinions for the readers. don't want to get too personal and would rather focus more on the issue.

stop making urself look silly

peace out.

You don't use Heal Party just to clean up the Warrior. But, when there are multiple allies that all happen to have a some amount of damage they've incured incidentaly, such as from degen, it's really not uncommon for an E/Mo to fire off a Heal Party, or two.

Then again, you're so clueless you assumed it was a Monk using Heal Party... Ether Prodigy Powered E/Mo anyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

stop making urself look silly

Take your own adice and stop posting when you have absolutly no clue what you're talking about.

beta man

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2006

R/E

16 Sep 2006 at 04:29 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

You don't use Heal Party just to clean up the Warrior. But, when there are multiple allies that all happen to have a some amount of damage they've incured incidentaly, such as from degen, it's really not uncommon for an E/Mo to fire off a Heal Party, or two.

Then again, you're so clueless you assumed it was a Monk using Heal Party... Ether Prodigy Powered E/Mo anyone?

Take your own adice and stop posting when you have absolutly no clue what you're talking about.

allright u replied fast, i will drop off one last one. it is not uncommon for a E/mo to fire off heal party and that prenerf ether prodigy ele blah blah yeah its common. now we are not talking about multiple allies taking dmg, we are talking about uneeded degen of the warrior vamp mod that leads to A MONK to heal him in a heat of the battle over time as it adds up. ever a time when u need to heal a warrior then suddenly u got esurged and energy burned? i have no idea why energy is no issue, to me, its a big one and 5 energy can mean saving a toon's life to carry on with the battle, its unwise to waste on a blinded/slowed/kited warrior that can't hit anything to justified his vamp mod to the fullest.

Take your own advice as well and stop posting when you have absolutely no clue what you're reading about. what have it got to do with a E/mo now? we are talking about degen and monk wasting energy here in the heat of a battle. u might as well throw in some other built and bring this issue way out of its point.

allright, i m sorry if my opinion or words offended anyone.

edit: remove "extingish" as it is personal preference ele built, have nothing to do with this issue

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

16 Sep 2006 at 04:43 - 101

Quote:

Originally Posted by beta man

allright u replied fast, i will drop off one last one. it is not uncommon for a E/mo to fire off heal party and that extingish ether prodigy ele blah blah yeah its common. now we are not talking about multiple allies taking dmg, we are talking about uneeded degen of the warrior vamp mod that leads to A MONK to heal him in a heat of the battle over time as it adds up. ever a time when u need to heal a warrior then suddenly u got esurged and energy burned? i have no idea why energy is no issue, to me, its a big one and 5 energy can mean saving a toon's life to carry on with the battle, its unwise to waste on a blinded/slowed/kited warrior that can't hit anything to justified his vamp mod to the fullest.

Take your own advice as well and stop posting when you have absolutely no clue what you're reading about. what have it got to do with a E/mo now? we are talking about degen and monk wasting energy here in the heat of a battle. u might as well throw in some other built and bring this issue way out of its point.

allright, i m sorry if my opinion or words offended anyone.

Kk, I'll bold this so you understand better...

The Monk is not healing the degen from the Vampiric weapon at all. Your Warrior has Healing Signet, if nothing else he can use that and heal that ~50 life himself. Your E/Mo has Heal Party, odds are he'll be tossing that around a bit anyway, 10 spec Heal Party heals 59 Damage. 8 Spec Heal Party heals 50 damage.

So, if you as the Monk never, ever have to heal the degen from that Vampiric weapon, because that degen is healed incidentaly by Heal Party, or Healing Signet, or is purposely healed with Healing Signet, how on earth is that bad for you?

Dante the Warlord

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

W/R

16 Sep 2006 at 11:56 - 102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Sundering is crap. End of story. Unless you can prove to us that they're equal... Which is impossible...

Oh, and there's no 'risk' involved with Vampiric unless you're absolutly retarded.

There are always certain cases where sundering becomes more useful then vampiric. especially if you build your build around sundering.

Honestly vampiric is sometimes hard to use and adjust to...i use both each for certain cases. those and an icy mod.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

16 Sep 2006 at 12:55 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

There are always certain cases where sundering becomes more useful then vampiric. especially if you build your build around sundering.

Name 3 cases. Hell, name 1. (I actually already stated the sole case in this thread.)

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

16 Sep 2006 at 13:43 - 104

this might be a little off topic, but i can't resist defending myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Well if no one cares about vamp weapons loseing them health why are 20/20 AP mods worth much more than vamp ones ? If everyone knew this surely it would be the other way?

that's what you said. so basically, you really do want to use a less effective, more expensive mod.

anyways....

the only case i can think of is when you compare individual hits. for example, comparing a critical hit from vamp, and a critical hit with AP triggered on sundering. otherwise, vamp is superior.

and savio... where the #$@#@ is my teddy!!!???

*cough*

Dante the Warlord

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

W/R

16 Sep 2006 at 15:48 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Name 3 cases. Hell, name 1. (I actually already stated the sole case in this thread.)

1. You want to have an easy time and you don't know the right time to switch weapons

2. You are going against a warrior with very heavy armor 140 AL +

3. In the future there may be classes designed solely for defense and survival

Mainly, nothing will be the "best" forever. Im sure in a year or two, everyone will come back and complian how sundering is better then vampiric.

Really in the end, its all personal preference, ask yourself, am i forgetful of switching, do i want to be lazy, do I want to be on edge or just plain have fun...

And for future replyers please i would ask you to please post nicer i.e.

GOOD EXAMPLE:
I think vampiric would be better for that case, or I really don't like sundering in my own opinion, but you are free to agreee or disagree with me...etc

BAD EXAMPLE: SUNDERING SUCKS!....
STFU VAMPRIC SUCKS, SUNDERING RULES!

this way we limit brawls and arguements, if you don't have something good to say DON'T SAY IT

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

16 Sep 2006 at 16:18 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

1. You want to have an easy time and you don't know the right time to switch weapons

Sundering doesn't become better, it becomes the lazy or new person's choice then. But a new player typically won't have the resources or unlocks for sundering, and nobody cares about what a lazy player chooses to equip. You might as well use an elemental mod, it's cheap as hell and still pretty effective in many situations.

2. You run past him because he's got Dolyak Signet on. By the way, sundering loses effectiveness against higher AL targets, so vampiric still wins.

3. ...What does that have to do with anything? (Like they're going to add some ubertank class anyway.)

Quote:

Mainly, nothing will be the "best" forever. Im sure in a year or two, everyone will come back and complian how sundering is better then vampiric.

I'm sure waiting another year isn't going to change much. Unless they changed sundering to 10% always, in which case it'd be used alongside vampiric.

Quote:

And for future replyers please i would ask you to please post nicer

I already posted nice the first few pages, just some people are too dense to get it. The fact is that vampiric > sundering currently, and people keep pulling up the same ridiculous arguments to show otherwise.

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

16 Sep 2006 at 20:29 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

There are always certain cases where sundering becomes more useful then vampiric. especially if you build your build around sundering.

Honestly vampiric is sometimes hard to use and adjust to...i use both each for certain cases. those and an icy mod.

Give me an example of one viable build based around Sundering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

1. You want to have an easy time and you don't know the right time to switch weapons

That doesn't make Sundering any good. It just means the player sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

2. You are going against a warrior with very heavy armor 140 AL +

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

Good to know you've bothered to inform yourself on when Sundering is actualy good. Wait, nevermind, if you had read that link that I posted you'd realise Sundering gets worse against higher AL targets... Oh, and please give me one example where a Warrior would have over 140 AL in actual PvP? Note how I said actual PvP...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

3. In the future there may be classes designed solely for defense and survival

Like that's ever going to happen...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Mainly, nothing will be the "best" forever. Im sure in a year or two, everyone will come back and complian how sundering is better then vampiric.

Dbout it. Sundering would need another massive buff to be equal, or better than Vampiric. Somthing tells me that ANET isn't going to buff it anymore, becuase they don't want to make somthing that has no drawbacks(even though Vampirics really isn't an actual drawback in practice) better than somthing with drawbacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Really in the end, its all personal preference, ask yourself, am i forgetful of switching, do i want to be lazy, do I want to be on edge or just plain have fun...

It sounds like you're saying Sundering is good... It's not. If you actualy wanted to have an advantage in the game, and spend less gold, you'd get a Vampiric mod instead of a Sundering. Plus, how hard is it to hit F2 to switch off your Vamp? Seriously...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

And for future replyers please i would ask you to please post nicer i.e.

I'd ask that you actualy be informed before posting. Because responding to idiots spreading misinformation is just not fun, and doesn't make anyone want to be nice. If you had a rational, informed oppinion about why Sundering wasn't crap, and actual facts to back it up, we'd be listening.

Spike

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

In front of my PC

Kai

E/Mo

16 Sep 2006 at 23:28 - 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

this might be a little off topic, but i can't resist defending myself:

that's what you said. so basically, you really do want to use a less effective, more expensive mod.

anyways....

the only case i can think of is when you compare individual hits. for example, comparing a critical hit from vamp, and a critical hit with AP triggered on sundering. otherwise, vamp is superior.

and savio... where the #$@#@ is my teddy!!!???

*cough*

You really have NO clue what your talking about do you moriz. For at least the 5TH time I said I prefed an ele damage mod or even sundering to LOSEING HP all the time. Ele Mods cost from 500 to 3k how is that MORE expensive than a vamp mod at 4k or a sundering at 55 to 75k. The last bit was what probley confused your feeble little mind. The or even a sundering. What I ment was that if I had to choose ONLY between a sundering and a vamp then I would choose a sundering.

Because I personaly don't like -1 HP degen and there are skills that can ADD to your AP. When your AP gets to a certain point (60% at least thats what savio says) it DOES become better than vamp in causeing damage over time. There are also skills which would make the vamp mod better too EG 100 Blades for a sword, cyclone axe for axe or Crude Swing for Hammer.

jimmy_logic

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

R/

17 Sep 2006 at 00:14 - 109

Only when everything triggers... will you get 60%. Other than that its just plain % your Enchants and Skills Grant. Personally I prefer Vampiric because that always works regardles... no chance involved especially using a recurve or a hornbow.

Spike

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

In front of my PC

Kai

E/Mo

17 Sep 2006 at 02:36 - 110

The only thing that needs to triger is the sundering mod. The other 40% is from skills which can be used as and when you like.

Personaly I use an firey or an icey sword over either vamp or sundering. I was just pointing out that if you used a build thats based on AP. It IS possable for sundering to outdamage vamp over time. As was originaly posted by savio.

Oh BTW Hornbows have a built BASE 10% AP. But the OP was asking about them on swords. Bows are a different question all together since you can get 5/1 strings. As oppsed to the 3/1 mods on swords.

Dante the Warlord

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

W/R

17 Sep 2006 at 02:40 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Give me an example of one viable build based around Sundering.

That doesn't make Sundering any good. It just means the player sucks.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3066860

Good to know you've bothered to inform yourself on when Sundering is actualy good. Wait, nevermind, if you had read that link that I posted you'd realise Sundering gets worse against higher AL targets... Oh, and please give me one example where a Warrior would have over 140 AL in actual PvP? Note how I said actual PvP...

Like that's ever going to happen...

Dbout it. Sundering would need another massive buff to be equal, or better than Vampiric. Somthing tells me that ANET isn't going to buff it anymore, becuase they don't want to make somthing that has no drawbacks(even though Vampirics really isn't an actual drawback in practice) better than somthing with drawbacks.

It sounds like you're saying Sundering is good... It's not. If you actualy wanted to have an advantage in the game, and spend less gold, you'd get a Vampiric mod instead of a Sundering. Plus, how hard is it to hit F2 to switch off your Vamp? Seriously...

I'd ask that you actualy be informed before posting. Because responding to idiots spreading misinformation is just not fun, and doesn't make anyone want to be nice. If you had a rational, informed oppinion about why Sundering wasn't crap, and actual facts to back it up, we'd be listening.

I stated cases...and im only trying to say that its in your opinion...Sundering is ok, and i think its probably equal in potentail to vampiric... But i use both, so I do not favor any, i am just simply saying that sundering has its purpose and so does vampiric. I used sundering as a begginner weapon, when i had trouble to switch around (actually i didn't even know we COULD switch....i am such a noob). I am now using vampiric, and its a major damage dealer i agree.

BTW you can have 140 AL using a regular max armor, a max sheild, and a defense mod combined with watch yourself. i put the + in becasue you might have some even higher AL armors in the future.

I am ok with criticizing, but PLEASE do it in a nice way.

Not everyone has to use vampiric, id really like to see more individuality now, instead of people forcing other people to go their way... just state the facts, and don't flame. let the ppl decide wats best for them,and just tell them wat they need to hear

Plus id like ppl to stop endorsing vampiric because i don't want to se its price rise to like 60k lol....

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

17 Sep 2006 at 02:53 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

I stated cases...and im only trying to say that its in your opinion...

How must evidence has to be behind a statement before it's no longer considered an opinion. It's a mathematical fact confirmed by skilled players that sundering is inferior utterly to elemental (vs war) and vamp (vs anything).

Quote:

Sundering is ok

Wrong. Read the whole thread.

Quote:

BTW you can have 140 AL using a regular max armor, a max sheild, and a defense mod combined with watch yourself.

Did you read what you quoted for that? Here is is again, important part bolded..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Oh, and please give me one example where a Warrior would have over 140 AL in actual PvP? Note how I said actual PvP...

Exactly how many warriors are using watch yourself in actual PvP, and moreover, if they were, you'd have to be a retard to continue targetting them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

I am ok with criticizing, but PLEASE do it in a nice way.

What you don't get is nobody is critisizing you, you're simply wrong and they have to remind you, over and over. Do you think that a year of study on the mods, and every major PvP'er is wrong because it's just 'in [their] opinion'?

Quote:

Not everyone has to use vampiric, id really like to see more individuality now, instead of people forcing other people to go their way... just state the facts, and don't flame. let the ppl decide wats best for them,and just tell them wat they need to hear

Nobody is forcing you to use vampiric. You are most welcome to use sundering. You are also most welcome to have a statistically weaker character, the rest of us that get to kill you in game certainly don't mind.

Quote:

Plus id like ppl to stop endorsing vampiric because i don't want to se its price rise to like 60k lol....

...

Wow, this thread is rather amusing... no idea how Savio can put up with it.

-Old 3FL-

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2006

Western Australia.

Crystal Mountain [CM]

W/

17 Sep 2006 at 03:00 - 113

Vamp wins anyways ^^.
Sundering just looks pretty on weapons lol.

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

17 Sep 2006 at 03:22 - 114

Yay, Avarre responded for me so now I don't have to tell Dante that he's clueless, again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

just state the facts

Take your own advice, please.

Spike

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

In front of my PC

Kai

E/Mo

17 Sep 2006 at 04:05 - 115

You people (eg the last 3 posters) should REALLY learn to READ preivous post before makeing clueless blanket statements like vamp wins ALLWAYS. As this is NOT the case. OR thinking that this game is pvp ONLY. Its NOT.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

17 Sep 2006 at 04:20 - 116

Sundering isn't terrible. The lack of health degen is a real benefit (especially in GvG where you spend more time running around and switching targets), and big sundering criticals are nasty things. It's basically half as potent as vampiric over time, but if a lucky sundering crit is the difference between getting a kill and not, why not try it?

I don't know which I prefer to be honest - I haven't had a chance to really test the two since I don't have a PvE warrior. But there's legitimate debate between the two mods now, to be sure.

Peace,
-CxE

Shadowfox1125

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

PST

W/

17 Sep 2006 at 04:44 - 117

Savio, I beg you to close this thread.
1. This has treaded on for too long.
2. What needed to be said has already been said. If people won't listen nor critically read the posts, let them do what they want. It doesn't help drilling it into their heads. You can drill them into the dirt on the battlefield.

Spike, I don't want to read everything in the last couple of pages? Why? I already know what kind of rebuttals Savio and the others have receiving by simply looking at Dante's posts. It's hilarious that Dante says that he's impartial to both, because if you remember a specific thread in the Warrior section..

Now, to piss off Spike, who really needs to take his own advice.

I'll take Vamp any day.

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

17 Sep 2006 at 08:19 - 118

Well, here comes my question. Does sundering work on the damage enhanced attacks? Those damage are told to by pass armor.

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

17 Sep 2006 at 08:31 - 119

My ranger now owns two perfect dragon hownbows (<3) one of which is vampiric and one is sundercrap...er...sundering. Versus the barrels in the Isle of the Nameless, the vampiric is definitely superior in terms of spiking and DoT. Ten hits equals a guaranteed, undisputable 50 damage whereas sundering is not as reliable.

The confusion arises in PvE when people trade weapon mods. 5/-1 Vampiric strings are common and therefore 5k-ish but perfect sundering strings seem to be rarer and has more numbers involved (and sell at ~30k). As a result many people instinctively think that sundering is superior.

The same applies to +5 armour mods and +30hp mods. I'm sure there was a thread proving that +5 armour is of more benefit than +30health in general circumstances.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

17 Sep 2006 at 08:49 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

You people (eg the last 3 posters) should REALLY learn to READ preivous post before makeing clueless blanket statements like vamp wins ALLWAYS. As this is NOT the case. OR thinking that this game is pvp ONLY. Its NOT.

In terms of PvE warriors, most of the time zealous wins. I can't think of any good PvE player (non merchant) that thinks sundering is good.