Why hasnt Distortion been nerfed yet?
Sab
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Xin
That's partially true, but that also doesnt warrant the conditions of it being imbalanced either. We're currently arguing over whether distortion is overpowered or not, we haven't reached the possibility that it is. The comparisons you've made are therefore irrelevant to this topic.
That quote was targeted at those people who posted a list of counters and saying (implicitly) that Distortion is not overpowered, simply on that basis.
But to elaborate:
One thing that has been bothering me in many replies is the way people use Distortion. You wouldn't (shouldn't) use it whenever a Warrior eyes you suspiciously, or even when you're being auto-attacked - that would be a waste of energy. A better way to use Distortion is to hit it only when someone's unloading an attack chain on you. With this in mind, a smart and conservative user of Distortion can break almost any attack chain instantly, with the hit of a button.
In short, Distortion far too easily defeats the strengths of attack-based classes - interrupts, Deep Wound and knockdowns mainly. Add to that the fact any Mesmer primary or secondary can use it to effect (break attack chains) and you have the basis of why I think Distortion is overpowered.
But to elaborate:
One thing that has been bothering me in many replies is the way people use Distortion. You wouldn't (shouldn't) use it whenever a Warrior eyes you suspiciously, or even when you're being auto-attacked - that would be a waste of energy. A better way to use Distortion is to hit it only when someone's unloading an attack chain on you. With this in mind, a smart and conservative user of Distortion can break almost any attack chain instantly, with the hit of a button.
In short, Distortion far too easily defeats the strengths of attack-based classes - interrupts, Deep Wound and knockdowns mainly. Add to that the fact any Mesmer primary or secondary can use it to effect (break attack chains) and you have the basis of why I think Distortion is overpowered.
Avarre
The game is full of skills that can amply defeat an attack chain spike, and while distortion is among the best of them, it's not really overpowered.
Distortion, while having great viability against a strong physical spike, is fairly weak against pressure. When faced with a team that has a mesmer with distortion (talking 8v8), you can easily choose seperate targets for spikes while pressuring the mesmer (condition degen or knockdowns) that will limit it's capabilities and cause severe damage to the mesmer when co-ordinated (pressuring multiple targets, etc). A team solely dependent on a spike (rspike, for example) has the remaining options for simply choosing different targets.
I believe WM has proved distortion can be beaten with warrior pressure before (old GWWC). It's not that hard a skill to work around, and if your melee attack chains can't get around the anti-spike usability on a few targets, then simply spike out others (extended wars, non me | /me casters, etc).
Distortion, while having great viability against a strong physical spike, is fairly weak against pressure. When faced with a team that has a mesmer with distortion (talking 8v8), you can easily choose seperate targets for spikes while pressuring the mesmer (condition degen or knockdowns) that will limit it's capabilities and cause severe damage to the mesmer when co-ordinated (pressuring multiple targets, etc). A team solely dependent on a spike (rspike, for example) has the remaining options for simply choosing different targets.
I believe WM has proved distortion can be beaten with warrior pressure before (old GWWC). It's not that hard a skill to work around, and if your melee attack chains can't get around the anti-spike usability on a few targets, then simply spike out others (extended wars, non me | /me casters, etc).
Terra Xin
Yeah, but you're missing the important downfall of distortion that balance it out.
Alright, so you have a warrior using an attack chain on you, generally if the mesmer is smart enough to time distortion right, then the warrior will compensate by wasting only one adrenaline skill on that target. Overall, a warrior may have used an 8 adrenaline skill, which would take 8 successful hits to recover, which takes under 11 seconds (10.64s) to recover if the warrior just hits the target under no buffs, and assuming the warrior does not take any damage. Distortion plus a loss of 2 energy will take basically half that time to recover (5.38s). The difference between adrenaline and energy is that energy loss holds more impact than loss of adrenaline. If a warrior has no adrenaline, then at least that one has the ability to continue attacking and dealing normal damage, while their energy reserves can still be used. Compare this to the loss of energy, and that is a big head knocker for casters, because it will render them incapasitated... apart from wanding, or using their +5E sword... yeah right :P. Loss of 7 energy to evade an 8 adrenaline skill, and if I used any adrenaline skill that had 6 or 4, then I could easily argue that distortion is underpowered. Noone loses out with this skill, it's more balanced than most skills are.
Now of course my statement is to say that the skill is balanced, but here is where the spammability of distortion makes it even more balanced for both sides. Should the warrior continue attacking through distortion, the warrior will continue missing and not gain any adrenaline. The benefit to the warrior is that the target will continue to lose 2 energy per hit. The benefit to the mesmer is that they have a 75% chance to 'evade' attacks. So let's assume the mesmer spams distortion.... twice. Now the warrior... within that time, if he did in fact manage to hit the mesmer, would have gained 2 adrenaline by now, because the mesmer evaded 75% of the warrior's attacks (assuming the skill is at rank 8-12, and the warrior strikes 25% of the time), the mesmer would have lost 5 + 5 + 6 x 2 - 13.3 (the negative value is energy recovery), the mesmer would have lost a total of 9.6 energy, while the warrior failed to gain 6 adrenaline. Now if you make a comparative between these stats and the stats above, then by all means, distortion is more underpowered than it is overpowered.
Let's not forget that I didn't factor in Frenzy in this calculation.
Just in case, before saying that energy isn't twice as important as adrenaline, look at the conditions that lie within hexes and conditions that gain energy. There are only a handful of skills that counter adrenaline directly, and distortion is one of them. Otherwise, the warrior can gain adrenaline on a constant basis along with adrenaline buffs that cant be removed. And unlike warriors, when a caster runs low on energy, they are left to run around waiting to recover, or use a particular energy recovery skill that either has a long recharge, or causes exhaustion, or causes you to sacrifice health, or has a long recharge AND is an enchantment. Warriors can continue attacking and gain adrenaline at the same time. But that's going off topic.
Trying to make the efforts to call this skill overpowered is going to need more evidence than to just say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxA
Alright, so you have a warrior using an attack chain on you, generally if the mesmer is smart enough to time distortion right, then the warrior will compensate by wasting only one adrenaline skill on that target. Overall, a warrior may have used an 8 adrenaline skill, which would take 8 successful hits to recover, which takes under 11 seconds (10.64s) to recover if the warrior just hits the target under no buffs, and assuming the warrior does not take any damage. Distortion plus a loss of 2 energy will take basically half that time to recover (5.38s). The difference between adrenaline and energy is that energy loss holds more impact than loss of adrenaline. If a warrior has no adrenaline, then at least that one has the ability to continue attacking and dealing normal damage, while their energy reserves can still be used. Compare this to the loss of energy, and that is a big head knocker for casters, because it will render them incapasitated... apart from wanding, or using their +5E sword... yeah right :P. Loss of 7 energy to evade an 8 adrenaline skill, and if I used any adrenaline skill that had 6 or 4, then I could easily argue that distortion is underpowered. Noone loses out with this skill, it's more balanced than most skills are.
Now of course my statement is to say that the skill is balanced, but here is where the spammability of distortion makes it even more balanced for both sides. Should the warrior continue attacking through distortion, the warrior will continue missing and not gain any adrenaline. The benefit to the warrior is that the target will continue to lose 2 energy per hit. The benefit to the mesmer is that they have a 75% chance to 'evade' attacks. So let's assume the mesmer spams distortion.... twice. Now the warrior... within that time, if he did in fact manage to hit the mesmer, would have gained 2 adrenaline by now, because the mesmer evaded 75% of the warrior's attacks (assuming the skill is at rank 8-12, and the warrior strikes 25% of the time), the mesmer would have lost 5 + 5 + 6 x 2 - 13.3 (the negative value is energy recovery), the mesmer would have lost a total of 9.6 energy, while the warrior failed to gain 6 adrenaline. Now if you make a comparative between these stats and the stats above, then by all means, distortion is more underpowered than it is overpowered.
Let's not forget that I didn't factor in Frenzy in this calculation.
Just in case, before saying that energy isn't twice as important as adrenaline, look at the conditions that lie within hexes and conditions that gain energy. There are only a handful of skills that counter adrenaline directly, and distortion is one of them. Otherwise, the warrior can gain adrenaline on a constant basis along with adrenaline buffs that cant be removed. And unlike warriors, when a caster runs low on energy, they are left to run around waiting to recover, or use a particular energy recovery skill that either has a long recharge, or causes exhaustion, or causes you to sacrifice health, or has a long recharge AND is an enchantment. Warriors can continue attacking and gain adrenaline at the same time. But that's going off topic.
Trying to make the efforts to call this skill overpowered is going to need more evidence than to just say:
Quote:
In short, Distortion far too easily defeats the strengths of attack-based classes - interrupts, Deep Wound and knockdowns mainly. Add to that the fact any Mesmer primary or secondary can use it to effect (break attack chains) and you have the basis of why I think Distortion is overpowered.
Avarre
Very interesting 1v1 controlled situation there... now why don't you look at it in a few more areas;
4-person mixed spike on distorted other caster
4-person mixed spike on a distorted monk
Also look at varying types of spikes
Distortion against condition pressure on both of the above groups
Distortion against melee pressure (many kinds) on both of the above groups
Yes, distortion is powerful defence against an immediate spike.
Yes, it's an incredible synergy skill.
No, it cannot keep you alive much versus many forms of pressure.
It can be worked around by spiking other targets (pressuring distortist only).
It can be forced against the character by heavily pressuring them in an afterspike while their distortion is up.
I don't think it needs a nerf any more than other highly utilized skills do.
4-person mixed spike on distorted other caster
4-person mixed spike on a distorted monk
Also look at varying types of spikes
Distortion against condition pressure on both of the above groups
Distortion against melee pressure (many kinds) on both of the above groups
Yes, distortion is powerful defence against an immediate spike.
Yes, it's an incredible synergy skill.
No, it cannot keep you alive much versus many forms of pressure.
It can be worked around by spiking other targets (pressuring distortist only).
It can be forced against the character by heavily pressuring them in an afterspike while their distortion is up.
I don't think it needs a nerf any more than other highly utilized skills do.
arredondo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Sure those all counter distortion, but over half of those skills are never used.
Exactly. Which means that obviously Distortion (or evasion in general) is not as big of a problem as the OP states if a lot of the counters out there don't even see play time. No need to fix something that's not broken.
Terra Xin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Very interesting 1v1 controlled situation there... now why don't you look at it in a few more areas;
Too much for me to work out the properties of Distortion's 'realistic' use. A 1v1 controlled situation gives a basic insight into both sides of distortion. It's practical use can be deemed something else.
You know, this is really no different to a lightning spike, where you have a monk killing it by putting up Protective Spirit, though, I suppose if 1/4 cast made all the difference...?
You know, this is really no different to a lightning spike, where you have a monk killing it by putting up Protective Spirit, though, I suppose if 1/4 cast made all the difference...?
twicky_kid
It has been nerfed.
Need 8 illusion to make it -2 energy loss. That can take away a lot from your builds power. You can also completely drain a target using it.
Its much more tamed than it used to be.
Distortion is fine the way it is and this is coming from a GvG war.
Need 8 illusion to make it -2 energy loss. That can take away a lot from your builds power. You can also completely drain a target using it.
Its much more tamed than it used to be.
Distortion is fine the way it is and this is coming from a GvG war.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
Need 8 illusion to make it -2 energy loss. That can take away a lot from your builds power. You can also completely drain a target using it.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Terra Xin
A 1v1 controlled situation gives a basic insight into both sides of distortion. It's practical use can be deemed something else.
Not quite. It ignores the potential of energy decimation through heavy melee pressure, or working around distortion through condition/hex degen + warrior pressure, where use of distortion can do more harm than good.
MilesG
Just think of the energy issues you will be giving that mesmer..
Terra Xin
Quote:
Not quite. It ignores the potential of energy decimation through heavy melee pressure, or working around distortion through condition/hex degen + warrior pressure, where use of distortion can do more harm than good.
Which aren't controlled environments :P. OK OK yes you're right, those circumstances are relevant. Any results of skills tested are more likely to be accurate if they were tested across all situations, and not just one. In that sense, the OP has only listed one circumstance, which makes the suggestion to nerf this skill one-sided.
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HolyHawk
It's not hard to see top guilds using way of the fox and recentely, reviving warrior's cunning to get rangers in an adrenaline spike. Distortion can ensure you a great defense in dual combats, but can pretty much doom yourself into waiting for your bar to recharge, if not kill you with no energy left. But I admit that I love to piss off warriors with distortion + failure, when not using ineptude, especially foreseeing them using frenzy non stop. Distortion is no where overpowered, it's just fine. The concepts from the mesmer class always tend to negate and/or deal the dmg back to the source; distortion negate's and has a side effect to its caster, can't see why it is not fine.
-Loki-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
HAHAHAHAHAHA! As spoken by someone who has never actually had to use that filthy excuse of a defensive stance!
It's used by mesmers and monk/mesmers because it's the only defensive stance they've got. It sucks raw salmonella-infected eggs compared to most ranger and warrior stances, but it's all they've got. If you can't kill a mesmer using distortion, you're one sad excuse of a warrior. Tell you what, change to W/Me and go to random arena, and try Distortion out. You'll get a whole new perspective on it, and will stop posting silly threads on GWGuru. Then why do you see Rangers using Distortion over Whirling Defense/Lightning Reflexes in high end GvG? ITS SO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING USELESS!!!
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Sure those all counter distortion, but over half of those skills are never used.
I use way of the Fox all the time with my Sin, and with a short, but powerful combo Im a force to be reckoned with.
Also, how can u not take wild blow, it's an awsome skill, all my W builds that I use have it. kazjun
It's been awhile since I used this build, but a few times while I was stuffing around in RA I could have sworn that griffons sweep owns distortion. Especially if you have aftershock on you as well. Or maybe they tried some other stance, I'll go recheck this sometime if someone else doesn't confirm.
Guardian of the Light
Distortion can be countered easily and I often use it against a Mesmer or a Mo/Me.
If they're running just try to catch them with sprint and keep attacking every time they evade your attacks they lose a lot of energy. Once they're low enough you'll notice you can hit more often. Wait till he throws up distortion one more time then slash him once to remove the stance (once energy is low enough distortion will end if it has no energy to feed the stance) then adral spike him. Work against R/Me with distortion (unless they cripple you then you need to ask the monk for condition removal), Me/W IW mesmers who just stand there, and works VERY good against Mo/Me who use distortion when a warrior comes within 10 feet of them. Only Mesmers who run away and use distortion are really a problem and even then you just need to attack somoene else and get your team to help you after everyone's dead. alchemistsan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light
Distortion can be countered easily and I often use it against a Mesmer or a Mo/Me.
If they're running just try to catch them with sprint and keep attacking every time they evade your attacks they lose a lot of energy. Once they're low enough you'll notice you can hit more often. Wait till he throws up distortion one more time then slash him once to remove the stance (once energy is low enough distortion will end if it has no energy to feed the stance) then adral spike him. Work against R/Me with distortion (unless they cripple you then you need to ask the monk for condition removal), Me/W IW mesmers who just stand there, and works VERY good against Mo/Me who use distortion when a warrior comes within 10 feet of them. Only Mesmers who run away and use distortion are really a problem and even then you just need to attack somoene else and get your team to help you after everyone's dead. True, sometimes I like monk or mesmer to use distortion. When they use this stance, they always tend to kite, if you chase them (not chasing to deep) and pressure them, you can temporary stop their monking/mesmering jobs and help your team member. The other team will lost the fire power or healing ability when you keep on harrasing them. While I'm not to PvP but when I play Fort Aspenwood and this is the way that I play warrior for especially to the ones that using distortion. When they lost their energy in needless spamming, you can kill them or leave them to help your team mates based on the situation angeleyes
As a R/Me i like distortion a lot. The most times i use it when i am under a lot of melee pressure. Or when i am using skills that have long cast time (Troll/Apply Poison) Cause then im just a sitting duck because i can't move for a few secs. It's allsow a great way to counter interrupters.
Zuranthium
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesG
Just think of the energy issues you will be giving that mesmer..
Absolutely none if they are running Spirit of Failure.
TheBaron82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuranthium
Absolutely none if they are running Spirit of Failure.
wow! really? Monks doesnt carry hex removal nowaday? War doesnt know how to switch target or not attack if they have like 3+ anti melee hexes on them? Oh wait the minute you must be refering to those w/mo. About distortion it is fine as is for all of the reason stated above
Dragannia
Well, to be fair SoF has a 10 second recharge, and can be covered quite easily. And if you're not attacking, then he won't have energy problems now will he
Anyway, on a Monk Distortion is mainly used to stop spikes, you're not supposed to spam it. That is, you activate it the moment Devasting Hammer/Shock/whatever hits you and you go down. If you evade a single Eviscerate, it might be enough to stop you from dying.
The Real Roy Keane
My god, why did I have to stumble across this abominable thead? Even the title: 'Why Hasn't Distortion Been Nerfed Yet-' eh, have a look back through previous skill balances..
Div
i think the point has been established: the op is noob and doesn't know what he's talking about. i bet he's only played warrior considering he thinks that distortion is 75% to evade MELEE attacks.
it's like an ele who's never played anything else saying that WoH is imbal because it heals for more than starburst's damage and starbust takes more energy and has more cooldown. please, don't make stupid conclusions if u've never played any other classes. saves the world a lot of time and pain.
Xeno The Fallen
o.O The only thing I think Distortion is good for is running as a E/Me. Which in my case is what I do...
Narcissus
Nerfed in the skill update today
 I remember reading that the duration was going to scale with the attribute line thinking something similar to 4...9 seconds duration. I was all sunshine and lollipops that my favorite profession was getting buffed (right after having taken it in the face in the energy skills department btw). I figured that the energy penalty being locked in at '2' was a balancing factor for this. Suprise Suprise! It now takes 14 points in Illusion to get back to the 5 second duration. Even worse you now have to contend with the 2 energy loss where as before 14 illusion would have locked the energy lost at 1 point per swing evaded. IMO the skill is junk now for anything but high attribute Illusion Mesmers (which luckily I am but still...  ).
nightrunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus
IMO the skill is junk now for anything but high attribute Illusion Mesmers (which luckily I am but still...
).
Not junk, just not as good. I don't see this being run on cripshots very often any more, especially considering you don't get the Expertise reduction any more. Still, it might still be useful on a monk if you just want to avoid a spike.
Zuzubee
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
i think the point has been established: the op is noob and doesn't know what he's talking about.
So noob that the developers of the game agreed with me and not you?.
RiP Distortion and all the people that relied on it like a crutch. Sertu
warriors and there frustations ah thats what i like 'bout being a mesmer
Blah and i dont use distortion that much actually. Kitting wil do fine in 9/10 of the cases. Besides i need my energy 2 drive the monks into insanity. @the above: distortion is not dead its even better for mesmers who use illusion as there secondary skill tree. Why did anet agree, well they killed igay (with 6vs6) so they needed 2 give the nuby warriors something back Wanna bet that sentence starts a wammo flame wave ?
Narcissus
Quote:
its even better for mesmers who use illusion as there secondary skill tree.
Care to explain this one?
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