IAS Choices

We all know there are several choices we can use for increased attack speed as warriors, both in and out of our proffesion, but how do we determine which is the "best" for each of us? I'm curious as to which skills people use and why.

Also, to those of you who use Tiger's Fury: do you use any other ranger skills?

Iway - tiger's fury (or nothing)
IW mesmer - flurry
any kind of warrior - frenzy + sprint/cancel stance...

frenzy is by far the best for quick damage spikes and adrenaline gathering...

For any kind of Warrior, Frenzy/Sprint, or for a Charge: Frenzy/Hex Breaker.

Frenzy is God.

im not enough to use frenzy so i dont use one when weilding sword or axe and flurry with my hammer

As of the 20060914 update, Tiger's Fury is no longer a viable IAS stance. It has far too many limitations for a mere 25% speed increase. Prior to the update, TF was *the* PvE IAS stance, as it allowed you to maintain 33% IAS 90% of the time with few real disadvantages. IMHO it was worth it to take /R just for Tiger's Fury, it was that good.

At this point you have few real choices for IAS in PvE. Frenzy is suicide, Flurry comes with a damage penalty, Tiger Stance has excessive recharge, Lightning Reflexes is unusable. Flurry is probably your best bet.

In PvP, Frenzy has always been, and may always be, the only real choice for IAS outside of IWAY builds.

Also, while Flurry does decrease your damage, it still ends up as a total DPS output from the IAS, not to mention you build up Adrenaline faster.

I say Tiger Stance for president. True, it has a serious recharge but with enough Strength (my build has that) it becomes negligable... And given that most people use Frenzy for spikes, I'd say it doesn't really matter if you can keep up Tiger Stance forever; it's not like you can spike forever anyway.

Flurry is one of my favourites, but the damage decrease IS a little much in PvP I'll admit that. But if you're merely trying to gain adrenaline for a spike or keep up your speed for some other reason, it's fine in my opinion.

I'm with ya on that one.

Tiger Stance rocks for PvE [I'm with Frenzy for PvP, sprint cancel foe's spike ftw].

It has a good strength rating [9str is what I usually carry or 8 at the least for most things] and if you carry 2 stances, any +dmg stance weapon [my collector's axe+sword] is pretty much set...

Using Tiger's Stance and Bonetti's Defense [usually for energy consumption, Cyclone Axe + Triple Chop eat energy like candy] I can be in stance about... oh... 18 seconds during a battle... 2s. only for recharging and junk...

Good shtuff....

If you're using Cyclone and Triple Chop you should have a zealous weapon.

Tiger Stance lasts for ~9s, and has a recharge of 20s. Plus, it ends prematurely if you ever fail to hit. That makes it close to useless in my book.

You shouldn't be 'spiking' in PvE. PvE is all about DPS, so you want an IAS stance you can keep up for pretty much 100% of the time. Having IAS less than half the time with Tiger Stance doesn't cut it.

Frenzy is the end-all, be-all IAS stance for PvP.

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what does IAS mean?

or UAX?

IAS = Increased Attack Speed. Generally used to charge adrenal skills faster.

PVP= FRENZY + VIPERS DEFENCE
PVE= FRENZY + DASH

heheh

UAS means "unlock all skills" and UAX means "unlock all X", where X includes skills, runes and mods.

As for blind etc., in PvE when PUGing, I would run a W/N with plague touch now, as W/R isn't worth it any more for Tiger's Fury. If you're using henchies, though, you don't need to bring your own condition removal, as they do a good job at removing.

Flurry vs. Tiger Stance ... hmm ... well, let's run some numbers:

Flurry = 1.5x attack rate, 0.75x damage, active 100% of the time.
Flurry effective damage on normal attacks: 1.5*0.75*1.0=1.125

Tiger Stance = 1.5x attack rate, 1.0x damage, active 50% of the time (let's be generous and assume you never miss)
Tiger Stance effective damage on normal attacks: 1.5*1*0.5+1.0*0.5 = 0.75+0.5 = 1.25

So for normal attacks Tiger Stance results in higher net damage.

A few other things to keep in mind:
Flurry adrenal gain: 1.5x
Tiger Stance adrenal gain: 1.25x
Flurry damage penalty does not apply to bonus damage from attack skills.

So take a typical skill combo: Galrath Slash, Silverwing Slash, Dragon Slash

Attack progression for this 3-skill combo is:
8 hits -> Galrath -> Silverwing -> 2 hits -> Dragon Slash -> Galrath -> Silverwing -> 4 hits -> DS -> Gal -> Sil -> 4 hits -> DS -> Gal -> Sil, etc.

With Flurry, the damage is decribed by the following formula, where x is the damage of a normal hit:

8*0.75x + 2*(0.75x+43) + 2*0.75x + [0.75x+42 + 2*(0.75x+43) + 4*0.75x] + [0.75x+42 + 2*(0.75x+43) + 4*0.75x] + ...

Since each hit takes 0.8778s to execute under 33% IAS, the time it takes to do this damage is given by:

12*0.8778 + 7*0.8778 + 7*0.8778 + ...

The damage formula for Tiger Stance is much simpler:

8x + 2*(x+43) + 2x + [x+42 + 2*(x+43) + 4x] + [x+42 + 2*(x+43) + 4x] + ...

The time it takes to do this damage is slightly more complicated. Tiger Stance lasts for 10/0.8778 = 11.39 strikes (rounded to 12, since a strike that starts while the stance is active will retain the speed increase). It then takes an additional 10/1.33 = 7.52 strikes to recharge (rounded to 8).

The time formula is then:
12*0.8778 + 8*1.33 + 12*0.8778 + 8*1.33 + 12*0.8778 + ...

So in 20s (one iteration of Tiger Stance), let's compare the damage Flurry and TS do:
-----
Flurry:
Strikes: 20/0.8778 = 23 strikes
Damage: 8*0.75x + 2*(0.75x+43) + 2*0.75x + 0.75x+42 + 2*(0.75x+43) + 4*0.75x + 0.75x+42 + 2*(0.75x+43) + 0.75x = 23*0.75x + 6*43 + 2*42 = 17.25x + 342

Tiger Stance:
Strikes: 12+8 = 20 strikes
Damage: 8x + 2*(x+43) + 2x + x+42 + 2*(x+43) + 4x + x+42 = 20x + 2*42 + 4*43 = 20x + 256

In 40s:
-----
Flurry:
Strikes: 46 strikes
Damage: 46*0.75x + 12*43 + 5*42 = 34.5x + 726 (initial 12 strikes + 4 iterations of DS loop + DS + gal + sil + 3 strikes)

Tiger Stance:
Strikes: 40 strikes
Damage: 40x + 10*43 + 4*42 = 40x + 598 (initial 12 strikes + exactly 4 iterations of DS loop)

As we can see, which stance results in more damage depends on the value of x, or normal attack damage. So, we look at the equilibrium cases:

20s: 17.25x + 342 = 20x + 256, 2.75x = 86, x = 31.27.
40s: 34.50x + 726 = 40x + 598, 5.50x = 128, x = 23.27.

For values of x above the equilibrium value, Tiger Stance results in more damage, and vice versa.

So what affects the cutoff value of x?
- Time. The longer the time period, the higher the ratio of normal attacks to special attacks, and the lower the value of x, and the easier it is for Tiger Stance to net more damage than Flurry. The reason for this is because Tiger Stance nets higher damage when considering only normal attacks, and Flurry is only competitive because it allows you to use special attacks more often.
- Bonus damage. As an extension of the argument above, the more bonus damage you have, the more attractive Flurry becomes. You can increase your damage by using skills that enhance your attacks, or simply by using more attack skills with +damage.

The bottom line: Flurry essentially nets 3 more attacks than Tiger Stance for every 20s period. Whether this is worth the damage penalty depends on how much bonus damage you have, and what your normal attack damage is. The more bonus damage and the lower your normal damage, the more effective Flurry is compared to Tiger Stance.

*NOTE: This analysis, besides possibly containing mathematical errors (please check for me!), involves a number of simplifications. However, I believe that the end result is still valid, even if the numbers may not be exactly accurate.

Only samples but ran groups of 10 samples with multiple builds and for a 15 str and 16 sword using a Dragonslash combo. In my test Tiger Stance killed the 4 dummies 3% faster than flurry.

I also tested Sun & Moon versus Silverwing Slash with 10 samples each got 4% faster by using Sun & Moon as the 3rd skill in the Dragonslash combo instead of Silverwing most likely due to the fact that even though Sun & Moon does less damage directly compared to Silverwing it helps recharge the combo just a little bit faster.

Finally I tested the Flurry build with 15 strength and with 1 strength with 10 samples each to get a ballpark for what the effect would be to drop strength when using no strength based skills. My result was I was 6.6% faster on average with the higher strength.

I'd be interested to see what the math comes out on those. I might give it a shot tomorrow when I have more time.

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15 str?

-150 hp?

He's got some serious monk workin' for him that's for sure... It's too bad Strength is the WORST primary attribute in the game thanks to repeated nerfing and that 15 str is by mechanic, the most useless way to build a warrior...

Str. attack skills suck.
Why you'd need so many extra AL with Dolyak doesn't make sense.
Endure/Defy Pain? no Elite Weapon? wtf?
Tiger Stance, erm, ok now that's not a bad idea but still...

Yeah, I don't know about mercenary71, but I've seen people running a lot less strength contribute a lot more to a party's objective than one with 15 str...

Is that constructive enough for you?

If health becomes an issue then I swap the relevant armor piece to a minor rune but in general I don't have problems with health so I boost strength to get the max duration on the tiger stance, a little extra AP (when using attack skills of course), endure pain and if running a dolyak sig (depends on the area) both of those skills work significantly better on higher strength. I also have tactics based builds as well - just like most people out there I change builds to suit the mission and/or my mood at the time. If I can keep myself alive without putting undue pressure on the monks I'm usually just looking to kill stuff as fast as possible.

The point wasn't to discuss the whole build but just to run a consistent set of numbers to compare and contrast flurry and tiger stance which are two IAS skills relevant to this thread.

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OR...

you could just be bad. I feel bad for rera, considering he typed up that very nice post for us and you had to come in talking about your "godly" 15 strength.

Strength is terrible, the fact that you run 15 in it and 16 weaponmastery means you're terrible, so let's move on. (not flaming, just pointing out truths) The simple fact that you're running dual superiors in ANY enviornment, makes me a sad panda.

Based on Rera's post, we see that flurry gives you a 1.5x increase in adrenaline and attack skills used aren't altered by the decreased damage. Since it's not attribute linked, is easily spammable, and gives you a minor drawback, flurry is king for pve.

(I should point out he's not getting "2 additional" points of strength, most good builds have around 9, so he's actually investing WAY too much in strength. Of course sometimes a warrior runs slightly more if they're running bull's charge warrior or something, or doing HA where Heal sig is not seen)

I checked your numbers Rera, everythings solid (and very impressive)!
Reiterates what you've been saying all along.

I've been using Flurry with my ranger, but for different reasons. I use it and a zealous mod to increase my energy regen to let me use more energy attacks. And since the +damage isn't effected, my damage doesn't take much of a hit at all.

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Wow - do some reading here and all I see are a batch of flame posts. Must be lots of teens or pre-teens posting in here who do not have a clue as to how to disagree and state why they disagree. I have a strong suggestion for them, take a basic English composition class and learn how to use critical thinking skills (and yes, the flamer posts do not have a clue on how to use such skills). I am sure there is a Critical Thinking For Dummies book out there that may help them along.

Honestly, for testing purposes, what difference does it make when doing a testing against training dummies. For combat purposes, it may be questionable to have two superior runes that depletes your health, but not always a wrong choice, such as the 55 monk build - which, on a side note, is funny in that when they die, if you do not have a rez sig, you can't help them at all.

On some testing I have seen elsewhere, where having the superior rune on some skill sets provided no advantages over having no runes or a major or minor.

I would strongly suggest for the flamers to take the time and try his base testing methods with your own build and mods, make your own observations, record the data, post the data and differences you found, and then if it is better, brag about how you know your build is the most awesome one and the godly of the bunch instead of just crap opinion with no facts to back it up. I would tend to at least listen to a guy who tried various examples of testing to get some sort of validation to his tests instead of a batch of guys who have nothing to back up what they say.

I don't have time to do base testing on stuff that I know doesn't work... Rera posted the numbers and it takes almost common sense to realize a few things...

Invalid tests: tests that don't occur under ideal conditions.

Invalid tests don't prove much if anything, I run into lots of those in college enough that I don't need to see them here. And if I do, I have a right to say something about it. I can say it sucks, as an opinion, or say it sucks, as a fact, in either case... it sucks!

Logically speaking: even if you do run 2 sup. runes and you switch armors in mid fight, you're gaining two atb points at the cost of 75 hp and then losing two atb points to get your 75 hp back...

In areas where under all your 100+AL, where monsters can swing for 150+ dmg, 75 hp probably isn't much of a difference, but I'm sure [look at the skill descriptions] that the worth of benefit from 2 points of strength does not add up in raw number to 75 points of anything... I'm about to pass out from being sleepy but if you look at all the strength skills, very few if any of them are worth using...

So in an ideal environment where your stats do matter, 15 str and 16 weapon spreads a warrior out WAAYYY too thin in terms of attribute use.

What's that mean? You're a one trick pony, you can be shut down far easier than a warrior with just a 3rd stat...

Tactics help you live long than strength skills will help you kill faster... At least through my experience...

When it comes to practical things, experience beats controlled testing...
Any of you here [aside from mercenary71] have a good experience and good flexibility thinking of running 2 superior runes?

Until game mechanics dictate otherwise, 2 superior -75 hp runes on a warrior just don't justify the gain, there's no other way to put it...

Show me a larger gain on strength skills with 2 points of strength than 75 hp and I'll stfu...

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@Yuk
If you don't run any testing and still spout your opinion as if you are absolutely 100% right and you have no basis for your argument that just makes you arrogant and lazy. Doesn't the mathematical formula also only apply to ideal conditions? If so why is the mathematical formula a valid point but the live-fire test invalid? If you never use strength skills then why do you post on their effectiveness? You might as well start posting on professions that you've never run...

With any build if it works it works and my experience shows it works for me. I'm pretty sure that there is no perfect build in GW so why do you assume everybody else that has a different build sucks? Like I said I have more than 1 build (like just about every warrior) and I use what works for that area. If I was in an area where you are taking ridiculous amount of damage (killing Glint in final battle for example) I swapped out all of my sup runes before the battle even started since you will eat 400 damage before you can blink when crystal skin goes up in the middle of the fight. For UW I'd be a stance tank running max tactics and no IAS at all. In other quests/missions if my health stays above 75% for the entire mission then I've really not lost anything by having a second sup rune so why would anybody care about 75 hp if I'm above 75% health the whole mission?? If I haven't really lost anything and I did gain something (more time on Tiger Stance, no gaps if running dolyak, extra AP, extra time/hp on endure pain) then why not?

@Thom
Why do you continue to bring up PvP arguments against something that was specifically mentioned as being for PvE? I thought English majors are supposed to be able to read fairly well? In PvP I wouldn't run Tiger Stance because I agree it would not be useful since human players run a lot more blocking stances/skills than you will ever see in PvE in which case Tiger Stance would be horribly ineffective.

If you get blinded you are shut down regardless of which IAS you use. In PvE human monks rarely remove blind and henchies pretty much never do (if they do it's usually on accident if they happen to remove a degen condition). In that case it is less important which stance you use and more important that you have condition removal. If you are stuck fighting blind then you are worthless except as a meatshield. In PvE my experience is you get blinded much more frequently than you run into the skills you listed above.

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