The assassins' primary attribute Critical Strike increases the chance of an attack doing a critical hit. According to GuildWiki, while the exact formula for how critcal hits is calculated isn't known, the attacker and target's level do factor in that equation.
After taking my assassin to Tyria and doing the Ascalon missions, I can vouch for this seeing as how nearly all my strikes were criticals. But this also made me realize some things about an assassin in the top-level areas: namely, mob assassins do more damage while player assassins do less.
Top-level areas usually have monster levels in the range 24-28 with some special bosses (like Glint) at level 31. Oni's for instance are level 28 so when attacking level 20 players, they tend to do insane spike damage which I now suspect is because they're doing critcal hits 90+% of the time (the number's my gut feel and nothing more).
I'm more concerned though on the player assassin's plight on this issue. This isn't an issue in PvP because you can more or less count on everyone to be level 20; but it's a different story in PvE. Obviously, a player's assassin will score less critical hits against level 24+ mobs thereby reducing their damage output which I believe was calibrated vs. lvl 20 opponents. Furthermore, skills like Critcal Defense and Way of Perfection activate less often because of the way critical hits are calculated. This translates to less defense the higher the enemy's level is. This is, if I'm not mistaken, unique to the assassin alone.
I'm actually more concerned about Critical Defense and Way of Perfetion activating less often rather than the lesser damage output but ANet may want to re-examine critical hit calculation as pertains to the assassin rather than jury-rig Critical Defense and Way of Perfection to fire off as often as if the opponent were level 20.
So should the assassin's primary attibute Critical Strike do more than just increase the chance of a critical hit? Should having points in it bias the target's level to be closer if not equal to that of the assassin's if it's higher?
Peace,
Xyngynkynyn
Should the Critical Strike attribute do more for PvE?
Xyngynkynyn
Hockster
Why should assassins get special treatment? Every characters class does somewhat less damage on normal attacks against high level foes. You always get the +damage listed in attack skill descriptions, that's where most of the damage comes from anyway.
pve-er
GW is a team game, please don't try to make each of the charactor capable to solo mobs on its own.
Chance of criticle strike for Assassin already much higher then other profession.
for the critical defence and way of perfection issue, ANet already buff Critical Strike by reducing its cost to 5e with recharge of 6 sec. so it can be spammable to keep critical defence up, and they already buff in the amount of healing from Way of Perfection (yeah, but I wish to seeit even higher, higher is better. compare to vigorous spirit, WoP give health ONLY when criticle strike ocur, they should give more health bonus to WoP cuz the low late of activation).
Chance of criticle strike for Assassin already much higher then other profession.
for the critical defence and way of perfection issue, ANet already buff Critical Strike by reducing its cost to 5e with recharge of 6 sec. so it can be spammable to keep critical defence up, and they already buff in the amount of healing from Way of Perfection (yeah, but I wish to seeit even higher, higher is better. compare to vigorous spirit, WoP give health ONLY when criticle strike ocur, they should give more health bonus to WoP cuz the low late of activation).
Xyngynkynyn
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Originally Posted by Hockster
Assassins depend on critical hits for energy management and some defensive skills. I'm not even touching damage loss from failed criticals because I'm more concerned about defense and energy management and they seem to be balanced vs. lvl 20s.
Does an elementalist's energy storage decrease because the target has a higher level? He/she may have to cast more and deplete energy but that's due to armor and other defensive skills. Assassins have to deal with the same things AND target level.
Does 12 Soul Reaping give 12 energy for the death of a level 20 target but only 9 at the death of a level 30? Assassin's get less energy back because of the higher target level. What other profession gets lesser energy simply because the target is 10 levels higher? Aren't the other assassin skills balanced off of Crtical Strikes' energy management mechanism? Isn't the mechanism balanced vs. level 20 targets?
Warriors with 10 strength will get 10% armor penetration vs. a lvl 20 and a lvl 30. The only known factor of high target level has on a warrior's damage is in dealing critical strikes which the warrior doesn't depend on for energy management or defensive skills.
My point is assassins deal with the same things as the other professions but their energy management as well as some defensive skills are tied to critical hits which is influenced by target levels. The assassin's attributes and skill design is (I believe) calibrated for PvP play where >20 level targets don't factor in (until Flesh Golems were introduced and even then aren't commonly used). It's my worry that given that, assassins and their skills weren't thoroughly thought out for high-end PvE and therefore their design may contribute to making them a very weak option in PvE groups.
Quote: Originally Posted by pve-er GW is a team game, please don't try to make each of the charactor capable to solo mobs on its own. I'm trying to bring the Assassin's energy management and effectiveness of the Critical Defense and Way of Perfection more in line with what you experience in PvP. They all fire off more often than in high level area PvE for reasons already explained.
Quote: Originally Posted by pve-er Chance of criticle strike for Assassin already much higher then other profession. Other professions don't depend on critical hits. Assassins do. They balanced it in terms of PvP where it's reasonable to assume everyone's a level 20 target. I fear they may have overlooked the complete ramifications of an assassin in a high level PvE area.
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Thank you.|
Originally Posted by pve-er
for the critical defence and way of perfection issue, ANet already buff Critical Strike by reducing its cost to 5e with recharge of 6 sec.
I'm not sure the whole issue should be disregarded with a "Critical Strike must always be brought in high level PvE areas". Where's the balance?
Every 3 ranks of Critical Strikes should add +1 damage while using daggers. Quote:
Now I understand the point here, thank for your detail explanation.
so, correct me if I am wrong, but basically the description for Critcal Attack attribute should be level ignoring like: For each rank of Critical Attack, you have additional 1.4% chance to deal critical hit, THIS BONUS IGNORES THE LEVEL OF YOUR TARGET. it seems reasonable to me cuz other primary attribute are not effected by target's level, am i correct ? Quote: 
this seriously effect the ballanbe in PvP :PQuote:
I don't really have any data on spell damage calculation to dispute you and searching for "spell damage calculation" here and the Wiki didn't return anything pertinent. For my own personal education, please cite your source on this matter.
Quote: but yes, pve-er you are correct, we're just asking that the crit bonuses of sassys does not decay as they face lvl 25-30+ monsters in pve, and only for pve.
Yes but let me make it clear that as a programmer myself, I do not advocate two separate formulas (one for PvP and another for PvE) when calculating critical hits. It's just too inelegant and open to errors when you have to maintain 2 different systems. I'd rather one equation that covers both PvP and PvE.
One solution for instance can be to replace the target's level with a value called "effective target's level" in the equation they use to calculate critical hits. We can then set the "effective target's level" as follows (in pseudo C++ code) Code:
if (Attacker.PrimaryProfession==ASSASSIN)
EffectiveTargetLevel=min(Attacker.CharacterLevel, Target.CharacterLevel);
else
EffectiveTargetLevel=Target.CharacterLevel;
NOTE: min() will return the smaller of the 2 values.
Yanman.be
This is why you use zealous daggers in High-end PvE.
dawnrain
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Originally Posted by seven
agreed.
at 14dm(20.2%) at 13(13%) cs, you'll get 33.2% chance to crit on a target of the same lvl. (assumed 20) when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 25, you'll only have 16.6% chance to crit at the same attributes. when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 30, you'll only have 8.3% chance to crit at the same attributes. Has anyone verified that the above example is accurate? How was it determined that the additional bonus from the critical strike attribute (and critical eye) is not factored in AFTER the adjustment for level differences? I.e. Maybe the above example is actually: at 14dm(20.2%) at 13(13%) cs, you'll get 33.2% chance to crit on a target of the same lvl. (assumed 20) when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 25, you'll only have 23.1% (20.2% * 1/2 + 13%) chance to crit at the same attributes. when targetting a monster in pve that is lvl 30, you'll only have 18.0% (20.2% * 1/4 + 13%) chance to crit at the same attributes. If critical strikes is calcualted this way, then it is independent of mob level and would be comparable to all other Primary attributes. seven
you can try it out personally at raisu where 28's are fairly common. figures just came from other forums and wikis. for me though, i can say that i don't do 23% (or almost 1 crit in every 4 attacks) at lvl 25's.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by Xyngynkynyn
I don't really have any data on spell damage calculation to dispute you and searching for "spell damage calculation" here and the Wiki didn't return anything pertinent. For my own personal education, please cite your source on this matter.
Read this artcle here. It's not explicitly stated. But if you read the section on Armor Effect, Damage Rating, and Armor Rating, it should explain what Uber was saying. It takes YOUR level and your TARGET's Armor into account. That same section also talks about Critical attacks a bit. It adds 20 to your damage rating, which helps to make up for increased armor levels.
As for changing Crit. Strikes? I think that since it feeds not only the number of criticals... but also energy management, self healing, evasion and a number of other positive and negative effects through skill usage...it's a very fine Primary attribute as is. Pick Me
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Originally Posted by pve-er
He mean Assassin.
Assassin has so many nick names  (Sin, Ass, Sassy, Noob?!)
I wouldn't call Noob the nickname for the Assassin. Isn't it the nickname for W/Mo? Skuld - I think you were looking for the term, mobile corpse. Critical Strike attribute should not change (not really anyway). Every profession has only 1 ability associated with the primary attribute. Warriors have Strength (% per level armor penetration); Rangers have Expertise (% energy reduction on non-spells); Monks have Divine Favor (+x healing per level of DF when casting a Monk Spell on Target Ally); Necromancers have Soul Reaping (+x energy per level on the death of anything in the area); Elementalists have Energy Storage (+x Max Energy per level); Mesmers have Fast Casting (% per level reduction on cast time); and Ritualists have Spawning (+% health per level to all summoned things). Why should (even if only in PvE) the Assassin get additional powers for putting attributes into Critical Strike. Isn't +Energy and +% chance to get a critical strike not enough?
Evilsod
So where do mesmers get there boost in PvE exactly? Or did you forget that mobs with interrupts can interrupt things that cast in 0.25s just aswell as things that cast for 1s w/ fast casting?
Nobody ever said the attributes were perfectly balanced in PvE. Assassins have 1 of the highest DPS in the game to lower level foes. Due to the constant critical hits, does this mean Soul Reaping should be buffed to give 2x energy for enemies lower level than you? Or Strength gives twice the AP? Besides what do you think Critical Eye is for?
Master Fuhon
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Originally Posted by glountz
Take your character level 15 from Lion'Arch to Kaineng Center. Craft him a max level armor. Take then the boat to Battle Isles. Fight the elementalist there in the little "bot" arena. Note its damage. (Mind burn did 27-27 damage against my lvl 16 ranger's druid's armor, the Firestorm did 11 damage, 13 if critical). Now, use your PvP Slot. Create a lvl 20 character. With exactly the same armor. Do the challenge. Guess what? You will take EXACTLY the same amount of damage (Mind burn with 27-27, 11/13 with Firestorm). If they were talking about levels, it is probably attribute level. Level 1 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare hits for 19 damage Level 2 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare hits for 20 damage Attack target: Level 1 Strider Level 1 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare hits for 14 damage Level 2 elementalist, 0 fire attribute, 20 dmg flare hits for 15 damage To put it simply, I'm pretty lazy for only doing two tests like this. If I wanted to come up with solid proof I probably would have attacked every kind of enemy in Pre-Searing. But I'm noticing that there is a damage increase from character leveling without attribute allocation. In the past, I've noticed some pretty powerful damage from a level 20 monk wanding lower leveled enemies, which I believe should follow the other armor reducing/character level based formulas. I did about 30-40 flares worth of damage (at each character level) noting the same effect on these types of enemies. If both of our tests are accurate, then there would be reason to believe that in PvE, character level affects the enemy's armor levels. For one thing, I'm probably fighting sub-60 AL enemies, and you are basing your conclusion off of 100 AL ranger armor. Where is the elementalist in Isle of Nameless who uses Mind Burn?
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by glountz
EDIT: I misunderstood what you said, you were not talking about your target level I think, but your current level when casting a spell, and the damage correlation. Sorry.
I was, but thanks for checking anyway.
 To state simply what the posted link says: The damage rating (which is used to calculate the Armor Effect, which is in turn used to calculate damage) is based on your Attribute Ranking for Melee weapons/bows/pet attacks and your character Level for wand damage/spell damage. While increasing your attribute will increase the amount of raw damage listed in the skill description, your character level determines how much damage is actually dealt against armor. I believe you have to be level 20 to deal full damage against a 60 AC target...but that's me assuming (I think your damage rating is = (3 * level)... which would mean 3*20 would be 60, which is what you need to deal the full amount).
Xyngynkynyn
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
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Master Fuhnon's test case for example show that the damage increases as the attacker's (the elementalist) level increases which is beside the point.
What I'm getting at is more like: Given a level 20 elementalist, would his Flare be doing more damage to a lvl 10 target vs. a lvl 20 target if they both had the same AL?
In other words, does the target's level factor in this equation. If not then it's a bad comparison therefore false that elementalists are in the same underpowered plight as assassins in high level areas.
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That same section also talks about Critical attacks a bit. It adds 20 to your damage rating, which helps to make up for increased armor levels.
As for changing Crit. Strikes? I think that since it feeds not only the number of criticals... but also energy management, self healing, evasion and a number of other positive and negative effects through skill usage...it's a very fine Primary attribute as is. My issue isn't with Critical Strike. It's with critical hits. The 20 added damage rating, the energy management, self healing, evasion and other effects you mentioned above only work if a critical hit happens. If it doesn't happen: no energy management; no self healing; no evasion; nothing. Critical Strike's benefits are conditional upon a successful critical hit. Sure other primary attributes have their conditions as well (Strength=attacks only, Divine Favor=monk spells only, etc.) but none of them are based on what target you're facing. Because of the way the critical hits are calculated, the chances of these assassin benefits happening decay (as seven aptly put it) the higher target's level is. The only way this can be comparable to a ranger for example is if Expertise read:
As for changing Crit. Strikes? I think that since it feeds not only the number of criticals... but also energy management, self healing, evasion and a number of other positive and negative effects through skill usage...it's a very fine Primary attribute as is. My issue isn't with Critical Strike. It's with critical hits. The 20 added damage rating, the energy management, self healing, evasion and other effects you mentioned above only work if a critical hit happens. If it doesn't happen: no energy management; no self healing; no evasion; nothing. Critical Strike's benefits are conditional upon a successful critical hit. Sure other primary attributes have their conditions as well (Strength=attacks only, Divine Favor=monk spells only, etc.) but none of them are based on what target you're facing. Because of the way the critical hits are calculated, the chances of these assassin benefits happening decay (as seven aptly put it) the higher target's level is. The only way this can be comparable to a ranger for example is if Expertise read:
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For every rank in Expertise, the energy cost of non-spell skills decreases by 4%. Also increases the effectiveness of abilities in this set, mostly stances. Expertise fails 25% of the time when there are > level 20 targets in the area and fails 50% of the time when there are > level 25 in the area.
As you can see, it doesn't affect PvP but put him in a high level PvE area and you'll understand why assassin's are so underwhelming in those areas. Peace, Xyngynkynyn
glountz
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Originally Posted by Master Fuhon
If both of our tests are accurate, then there would be reason to believe that in PvE, character level affects the enemy's armor levels. For one thing, I'm probably fighting sub-60 AL enemies, and you are basing your conclusion off of 100 AL ranger armor. Where is the elementalist in Isle of Nameless who uses Mind Burn? |
When you create a new PvP character, you test it in the Isle of the Nameless against various teams and kind of arenas. In the opposite team there is an elementalist using mind burn.
