First lets start with the sythe.
Its now adjacent range and only foes in front of you. You very rarely hit more than 1 target. This is very very bad. All the pressure the dervish was capable of is now gone. The attack speed is slower than hammer but only does 3 more dmg. That's pretty lame.
Wounding strike was made an elite. The only method of deep wound is elite. So now you have to choose basicly either an avatar or be able to deep wound.
On the buff side the sythe skills affect all foes hit instead of just the target. Not all the skills remove enchantments now.
Overall the sythe was hit pretty hard.
Now to the avatars. These are most likely the only choice for elites. Melandru's is useless now at 25e. That's your entire energy pool. You'll never be able to use it if you hit the all too common dual surge mesmers. Even with the energy boost the 2 cast time remains. The avatars are easily interrupted when you are on the frontlines. You'll lose a lot of pressure if you run to the backlines just to use your avatar (assuming a ranger isn't sitting on your face).
AoE enchantments have been reduced to adjacent range. All the holy dmg enchants have been reduced and 20 recharge. So....you can't use them for pressure, 3 foes might get hit if your lucky, and the 3/4 casting still remains. With the reduction of range you can barely hit anything. Anytime a dervish gets close to anyone they begin running. Anyone can kite out of adjacent range in 3/4 seconds.
Mystcism's hp has been reduced to 1 hp per attribute. Basicly you won't even notice it. It should be at 2. 15 Myst is where you want it for the last breakpoint. At 2 per attribute its only 30 hp. That's not very much. I can get more than that with vigorous spirit in 2 hits.
To me the dervish is off my list of primary classes for pvp in GvG. Would be a good flag runner with balth's avatar but that's about the only use I can think of. Everything else other classes can do better.
Dervish nerfs & buffs
twicky_kid
unmatchedfury
I'm not sure because i havn't actually had time to play the game. If deverishes suck as much as the rit does in PvP it may well become my favorite class. i have a weakness for underapreachiated and underused classes. Although channeling rits seem to be as common as whammos in RA these days.
lyra_song
Yes, they definitely overnerfed compared to their PvP-weekend version.
Its just...painful.
Its just...painful.
Ryo Azuro
Poor Dervish. I hope they can balance the Dervish out more. That's the main class I want to play once Nightfall finally comes out. *Crosses fingers* Let's hope for the best!
- Ryo
- Ryo
lightblade
Dervish is still pretty good...I pick 2 Dervish henchmen over 2 Warrior henchmen.
Kha
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
AoE enchantments have been reduced to adjacent range.
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Alberic
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Originally Posted by Kha
Is it just me, or do the two "adjacents" (scythe and AoE enchantment) not cover the same area? I actually found the scythe hitting farther targets than when I used the enchantments. And no the monsters weren't moving. It was odd to me and found it hard to do combo attacks. Maybe it was just a bug.
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Kha
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Originally Posted by Alberic
I think that's because when you use the enchantments, they hit targets adjacent to YOU, and when you hit your target with a scythe, it hits targets adjacent to that target. That's all I could think of when I was noticing the same thing, anyway.
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I was too busy being upset with Koss who decided that while I was on my Dervish he just wouldn't attack (he was fine for me when I tried the Paragon.) He would even STOP in battle for no reason... but that's for another thread.
KANE OG
I have no idea what the OP is talking about.... nerfed? I don't think so.
tomcruisejr
so no more whirling dervishes? so dervish is now "another warrior in disguise"?
how would a.net revitalize the game if they are afraid to take risks of introducing "OVERPOWERED ZOMG!!!" classes? monks, elementalists, mesmers and warriors are so 1+++ years ago.
how would a.net revitalize the game if they are afraid to take risks of introducing "OVERPOWERED ZOMG!!!" classes? monks, elementalists, mesmers and warriors are so 1+++ years ago.
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by lightblade
Dervish is still pretty good...I pick 2 Dervish henchmen over 2 Warrior henchmen.
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As for PvP put a dervish vs a monk. The dervish can't kill him alone. While a war can solo a monk.
jimmyhats
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
In pve they will be kings. The AI is dumb and doesn't know to stay away from the dervish.
As for PvP put a dervish vs a monk. The dervish can't kill him alone. While a war can solo a monk. |
last night i was gvging with my dervish, and while i could get monks down to like 20% hp or less, i could never quite get the kill until our war came and gave 'em a couple whacks with the ol' hammer. now... taking out lone warriors and casters.... well thats a whole different story xD
dervs are definatley less powerful than they were during the pvp bwe... i would love to see them re-buffed at least a little before release.
...and i agree 100% that either wounding strike should not be elite, or dervishes need some other (non-elite) way to apply a deep wound.
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by jimmyhats
...and i agree 100% that either wounding strike should not be elite, or dervishes need some other (non-elite) way to apply a deep wound.
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That has now been changed. The deep wound can hit mulitple targets. That can be really nasty but its a hard choice.
Nightwish
Dervish is definitely much lacking compared to the previous preview. They can still do well in pve but in pvp....As already stated, there is almost too many nerfs on this class.
Using aoe dmg enchants for example, they are nerfed in almost every aspect. I was very sure there will be a nerf (recharge/damage/radius), but not all three.
Using aoe dmg enchants for example, they are nerfed in almost every aspect. I was very sure there will be a nerf (recharge/damage/radius), but not all three.
Kakumei
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
only foes in front of you.
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Quote:
| On the buff side the sythe skills affect all foes hit instead of just the target. |
TadaceAce
They aren't even very good in pve imo. OP got nerfs I can see
-Scythe Attack Speed
-AoE reduced to adjacent.
-Balt Rage/Holy Flame damage reduced
-Enchant Recharges nerfed to double and some
-Some costs increase (mirage cloak i.e.)
-Pious Renewal made elite
-Wounding strike turned elite but was buffed to go with it so whatever.
-Mysticism is worthless with the nerf of all dervish enchants and itself.
There are more but I can't think of them. The dervish primary is dead to me, the dervish is just another secondary my ranger will abuse expertise on. As far as paragon, I havn't played it but I already know R/P is powerful.
-Scythe Attack Speed
-AoE reduced to adjacent.
-Balt Rage/Holy Flame damage reduced
-Enchant Recharges nerfed to double and some
-Some costs increase (mirage cloak i.e.)
-Pious Renewal made elite
-Wounding strike turned elite but was buffed to go with it so whatever.
-Mysticism is worthless with the nerf of all dervish enchants and itself.
There are more but I can't think of them. The dervish primary is dead to me, the dervish is just another secondary my ranger will abuse expertise on. As far as paragon, I havn't played it but I already know R/P is powerful.
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by Kakumei
This is false. If you have one person in front of you and one behind you, you will hit them both.
They always did. |
No the skills did not affect all targets hit before. It was only your target that was affected.
I played GvG with my dervish in a balanced group and Crippling sweep NEVER crippled more than 1 person no matter how many I hit at the same time.
Ken Dei
To sum it up they beat the hell out of the Dervish for only a few half-decen reasons.
What they shoulda done, and hence, should do before release:
Mysticism Attribute:
Obviously overpowered as it was, it's now broken ad useless, 80% of the durability of the Dervish came from the bonuses of this attibute.
How it should be:
-2 health and energy per 3 levels for Dervish enchants.
-2 health and energy per 4 levels for other enchants, monk or otherwise.
The Scythe:
The dmg is acceptable now that all skills effect all adjacent players. As for skills, they seem fine.
AoE:
Some skills should have wider the Adjacent, if not all, change it back.
Avatars:
I told you after the PvP test...I said this, go search for it if you like. A.net, if you're going to balence the Dervish, DO NOT F@&K WITH THE AVATARS! Change those back, immediately and lock them in a damn vault, they were fine as they were and didn't need ANY balencing at all.
Noted Skill change:
Meditation: You gave it a 2 second casting time, unacceptable. Make it less again.
All in all much of Dervish was perfect as it was. There were no need for half the nerfage it saw.
A.net, if you don't want to have another broken class like the assassin and spend the net few updates undoing your previous mistakes, listen to those of us who know what's needed.
Put most of the Dervish back together, leave the scythe as it is, that was a good change. Mysticism needs modifcation to avoid abuse, but there is NO excuse for what you did to the avatars.
DO NOT SCREW THIS UP.
What they shoulda done, and hence, should do before release:
Mysticism Attribute:
Obviously overpowered as it was, it's now broken ad useless, 80% of the durability of the Dervish came from the bonuses of this attibute.
How it should be:
-2 health and energy per 3 levels for Dervish enchants.
-2 health and energy per 4 levels for other enchants, monk or otherwise.
The Scythe:
The dmg is acceptable now that all skills effect all adjacent players. As for skills, they seem fine.
AoE:
Some skills should have wider the Adjacent, if not all, change it back.
Avatars:
I told you after the PvP test...I said this, go search for it if you like. A.net, if you're going to balence the Dervish, DO NOT F@&K WITH THE AVATARS! Change those back, immediately and lock them in a damn vault, they were fine as they were and didn't need ANY balencing at all.
Noted Skill change:
Meditation: You gave it a 2 second casting time, unacceptable. Make it less again.
All in all much of Dervish was perfect as it was. There were no need for half the nerfage it saw.
A.net, if you don't want to have another broken class like the assassin and spend the net few updates undoing your previous mistakes, listen to those of us who know what's needed.
Put most of the Dervish back together, leave the scythe as it is, that was a good change. Mysticism needs modifcation to avoid abuse, but there is NO excuse for what you did to the avatars.
DO NOT SCREW THIS UP.
Kakumei
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
Tested it earlier and it didn't hit anything behind me. So many bugs and incorrect skill discriptions with this event so I'm not for sure which one is suppose to happen.
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Quote:
| No the skills did not affect all targets hit before. It was only your target that was affected. |
Guardian of the Light
Don't underestimate the dervish so much.
Their not like assassins or warrior so they can't do very good finishing skills.
However they are extremely good at spreading damage. I tried Apply Poison on a R/D and it pwned up RA. Their basic power comes from the fact that they can hit more then one target at a time.
However yes Anet did overnerf the dervish a bit. Some skills I can't understand why they made elite (wounding strike WTF!).
Their not like assassins or warrior so they can't do very good finishing skills.
However they are extremely good at spreading damage. I tried Apply Poison on a R/D and it pwned up RA. Their basic power comes from the fact that they can hit more then one target at a time.
However yes Anet did overnerf the dervish a bit. Some skills I can't understand why they made elite (wounding strike WTF!).
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by Kakumei
My playtesting in RA today suggests otherwise, though I suppose I'm not certain.
Unless you're referring specifically to the Scythe Attack skills, this is false: I am absolutely certain Drunken/Desperation Blow trigger (and did trigger in the previous event) on all struck enemies. |
All sythe attacks had "insert name, deal +dmg to target foe and....." That means the skill itself only triggers on your target. Other foes get hit at the same time but for normal dmg and effect from the skill.
I think its good that has been changed but at the same time they reduced the range on the sythe.
Seems like an over nerfage of the dervish. I look at it from a monks perspective. Honestly they are not very scary. The only thing you have to worry about from a dervish is cripple. The attacks are so slow that even healing prayers resist them easily.
sindex
Actually this big whopping nerf was thanks to all the folks who stated that (whining) “Devrish’s are to powerful, I can’t stand it and it’s just not fair” (whining). So for that A-net did what they thought, what the public wanted a downgrade to them. I hope they get a upgrade like the way assassins did (from the last balance skill update), when they realize it went a bit too far.
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by sindex
Actually this big whopping nerf was thanks to all the folks who stated that (whining) “Devrish’s are to powerful, I can’t stand it and it’s just not fair” (whining). So for that A-net did what they thought, what the public wanted a downgrade to them. I hope they get a upgrade like the way assassins did (from the last balance skill update), when they realize it went a bit too far.
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A lot of this stuff is common sense. If I could easily dodge the aoe enchantments at nearby range what the hell do you think is going to happen at adjacent range???
Changes need to be very small. Radical changes = won't be used.
Its really sad when you have trouble killing an NPC archer because of troll ungent.
sindex
What I’m trying to say part of it is the community fault, (A-net does listen people) for not understanding the devrish when they had the chance. Now look, some of the simple A.I. can kill me in one simple hit that would not happen, if I was another class (profession). I finally came to realize, as I finished the preview event how much more powerful a smite monk (even Rit’s) will be against a Devrish, that is just playing sad. I love this profession very much, (more then the others) but to see it go down the toilet is just wrong. I hope they do fix it before the next chapter I really do, but who knows (in truth I doubt they will).
twicky_kid
I feel exactly the same you do about the dervish. During the pvp weekend it was a blast. I ran dervs in normal balanced builds for GvG. No dmo abuse. In a normal group they were powerful but not overpowered.
Hopefully it will changed for release.
Hopefully it will changed for release.
Nickhimself
I think that you should stop comparing how powerful they were a month ago to how they are now. they're not even done yet.
forget what you played a month ago, that was the "hey this is what we're gonna bring out, we need you guys to see how broken they are" kind of preview. This is a "hey, check out Elona...pretty sweet, huh?" preview.
don't cry about them until the game is actually released.
forget what you played a month ago, that was the "hey this is what we're gonna bring out, we need you guys to see how broken they are" kind of preview. This is a "hey, check out Elona...pretty sweet, huh?" preview.
don't cry about them until the game is actually released.
Cloudpiercer
lol, all I have to say is that we brought it on ourselves. People just started whining about how powerful the Dervish was during the PVP weekend and Anet beat them into the ground with the nerf bat. I dont have a problem with the Scythe stuff.... but WTF with Mysticism? Its pretty much useless now. And why did they mess around with the Avatars, there was nothing wrong with them.
Hopefully they will fix some of this stuff before the game comes out.
Hopefully they will fix some of this stuff before the game comes out.
actionjack
I didn't try the PvP yet.. nor too much before...
But isn't the function of Dervish suppose to be the hit-all-at-once type of attacker? Won't that mean that with out a proper build, they are not really suppose to be a spike damager? Which translate to them not all that great in a small number GvG or PvP situation (unless they come in a group...). So I think its not much of nerf as to make them not overpower....
Althought I still would like to see 1 arrow of energy degen per their enchantment.....
But isn't the function of Dervish suppose to be the hit-all-at-once type of attacker? Won't that mean that with out a proper build, they are not really suppose to be a spike damager? Which translate to them not all that great in a small number GvG or PvP situation (unless they come in a group...). So I think its not much of nerf as to make them not overpower....
Althought I still would like to see 1 arrow of energy degen per their enchantment.....
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nickhimself
I think that you should stop comparing how powerful they were a month ago to how they are now. they're not even done yet.
forget what you played a month ago, that was the "hey this is what we're gonna bring out, we need you guys to see how broken they are" kind of preview. This is a "hey, check out Elona...pretty sweet, huh?" preview. don't cry about them until the game is actually released. |
Compare the Sin of today to the Sin in the first preview event. There isn't much difference. The only real difference is some attack skills were moved to criticals so r/a couldn't use them better than a primary sin can. Some energy cost were tweaked. Recharge on many skills were increased insanely high. Dmg was lowered by at least 10-15 points on some skills. So what did they do last update? Decreased recharge times and increased dmg.
Dervish came out strong. People complained. They got nerfed to shit for the 2nd preview event. Game is released and other classes can do the job better. Why does this all sound so familiar?? Oh ya cause its the exact same thing that happened to sins.
Lady Lozza
I honestly don't see why people are complaining... Or rather I do. They played the pvp beta and owned everything and now they are upset they can't solo like crazy.
A Dervish, while a melee character, is not technically a tank. Furthermore to play them like a tank requires a lot more finess than to play a warrior as a tank. You can't just lump all your points into scyth mastery and expect to own everything. This is what 90% of the people this weekend have done. I was abused several times playing as a monk by a number of Dervishes who had 0, yes 0, healing skills in their bar. As the only monk in a team of 8, I simply can't be everywhere at once, can't do everything at once, and do not exist as everyone's personal healer.
/end rant
Seriously, yes the nerf was big, but I think a lot of people are simply smarting over how big it was rather than trying to adapt and realising that even in it's current form the dervish is a powerful profession.
A Dervish, while a melee character, is not technically a tank. Furthermore to play them like a tank requires a lot more finess than to play a warrior as a tank. You can't just lump all your points into scyth mastery and expect to own everything. This is what 90% of the people this weekend have done. I was abused several times playing as a monk by a number of Dervishes who had 0, yes 0, healing skills in their bar. As the only monk in a team of 8, I simply can't be everywhere at once, can't do everything at once, and do not exist as everyone's personal healer.
/end rant
Seriously, yes the nerf was big, but I think a lot of people are simply smarting over how big it was rather than trying to adapt and realising that even in it's current form the dervish is a powerful profession.
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza
I honestly don't see why people are complaining... Or rather I do. They played the pvp beta and owned everything and now they are upset they can't solo like crazy.
A Dervish, while a melee character, is not technically a tank. Furthermore to play them like a tank requires a lot more finess than to play a warrior as a tank. You can't just lump all your points into scyth mastery and expect to own everything. This is what 90% of the people this weekend have done. I was abused several times playing as a monk by a number of Dervishes who had 0, yes 0, healing skills in their bar. As the only monk in a team of 8, I simply can't be everywhere at once, can't do everything at once, and do not exist as everyone's personal healer. /end rant Seriously, yes the nerf was big, but I think a lot of people are simply smarting over how big it was rather than trying to adapt and realising that even in it's current form the dervish is a powerful profession. |
As for their "tanking" ability. They are designed to be surrounded my multiple foes in the front lines. Yet myst healing was reduced so much that it makes no difference and they have at max 70 AL vs physical dmg. So they are on the front lines, take huge dmg, and cannot even mitigate enough dmg to make a difference.
If you think that sins had it bad just wait. At least sins had a way of instantly shadow stepping out of the flay.
Lady Lozza
The dervish have access to a number of healing spells, which 90% of them aren't using - this is my point. In the pvp weekend, you could rely on mysticism alone to get a lot of the healing you need, now you can't. Instead of adapting, people complain. Of course thinking tactically isn't in craze at the moment, so taking something like Dust Cloak to help blind all those melee characters around you while you continue to deal damage is completely out of the question.
If you read the skills you will notice that a lot of spells do damage when the enchantment ends. Yet a goodly proportion of dervishes seem to want to keep their enchantments up! The "echantment" removing skills were a BONUS to the profession, allowing you to "force" the extra damage and conditions of the enchantment (ending) when you most needed or wanted it. But once again 90% of players don't understand this rather unique twist that Dervishes have.
If you read the skills you will notice that a lot of spells do damage when the enchantment ends. Yet a goodly proportion of dervishes seem to want to keep their enchantments up! The "echantment" removing skills were a BONUS to the profession, allowing you to "force" the extra damage and conditions of the enchantment (ending) when you most needed or wanted it. But once again 90% of players don't understand this rather unique twist that Dervishes have.
ectospasm
just another damn example of why there should be separate code for skills in PVP from PVE.
not duplicate skills with different stats, just when you enter pvp you get the nerfed skill, when you enter pve you get the un-nerfed skill.
i thought nighfall was pve based more? so imo, the best of the two new professions is useful, but yet nerfed. thats the only thing wrong with this game. needs to be a line drawn between pvp & pve.
and the dervish needs more energy too. its just rediculously low even with the nerfed mysticysm
oh well we're all suffered the consequences of the rit and warrior nerfs might as well get used to it
not duplicate skills with different stats, just when you enter pvp you get the nerfed skill, when you enter pve you get the un-nerfed skill.
i thought nighfall was pve based more? so imo, the best of the two new professions is useful, but yet nerfed. thats the only thing wrong with this game. needs to be a line drawn between pvp & pve.
and the dervish needs more energy too. its just rediculously low even with the nerfed mysticysm
oh well we're all suffered the consequences of the rit and warrior nerfs might as well get used to it
Clord
Dervish is still in beta balance.
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza
The dervish have access to a number of healing spells, which 90% of them aren't using - this is my point. In the pvp weekend, you could rely on mysticism alone to get a lot of the healing you need, now you can't. Instead of adapting, people complain. Of course thinking tactically isn't in craze at the moment, so taking something like Dust Cloak to help blind all those melee characters around you while you continue to deal damage is completely out of the question.
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During the pvp event the dmo was godly because of cop and no other reason. Otherwise conditions and hexs would have rolled them in a minute or 2. They have 0 condition removal and only 1 skill that removed hexes and it was bugged. It would not remove the last hex if there was a stack. CoP was the backbone of that build and its nothing without it.
Yes this is beta. That's exactly the reason I made this post. Anet reads these. If everyone says, "ya I'm not getting rolled like I was last time and they die really easy so I like it." Anet will follow that.
Anet has a chance to make things right before the release. My faith that will happen??? Very little.
Paperfly
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| The only method of deep wound is elite. |
...Or Avatar of Melandru or Featherfoot Grace, I guess.
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Paperfly
Not quite. Wearying Strike basically requires you to take a necro secondary for Plague Touch, though (unless you're doing most of your damage via casting and just need the DW to finish opponents off).
...Or Avatar of Melandru or Featherfoot Grace, I guess. |
I think just about every dervish will run cop. It still gives you energy and some removal.
Tark Alkerk
i would like to remind everyone that the dervish is still in beta form, and would they please not panick every five mins that the dervish is underpowered/overpowered, and also skills don't stay the same way forever, thats what updates are for.
Nightwish
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza
The dervish have access to a number of healing spells, which 90% of them aren't using - this is my point. In the pvp weekend, you could rely on mysticism alone to get a lot of the healing you need, now you can't. Instead of adapting, people complain. Of course thinking tactically isn't in craze at the moment, so taking something like Dust Cloak to help blind all those melee characters around you while you continue to deal damage is completely out of the question.
If you read the skills you will notice that a lot of spells do damage when the enchantment ends. Yet a goodly proportion of dervishes seem to want to keep their enchantments up! The "echantment" removing skills were a BONUS to the profession, allowing you to "force" the extra damage and conditions of the enchantment (ending) when you most needed or wanted it. But once again 90% of players don't understand this rather unique twist that Dervishes have. |
Yes, you are right, the enchant removing skills are a bonus to dervish but the effect radius of those enchants are reduced to adjacent. This might work in pve with the amount of mobs (& their AI) but in pvp, there is limited number opponents and human players are very far from being static.
Perth68
well I justed tested out a derv in ra... and I am really annoyed at the moment because a base energy pool of 25 and melandru avatar costing 25 means if I die once I can no longer use my elite skill. = / (death penalty takes energy pool below 25 
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)