Ether Prism and you!

Trylo

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

[Here] | CKOD

E/R

so i just wanted to post all the green canthan weapons people might be wanting to collect before they capture the elite spell, Ether Prism;

The Spell

Ether Prism (25energy, 2 cast, 10 cooldown)
Gain 0...2 energy for each point of Energy you have.

So... what good is this? you lose about 23 energy, so you have to start casting this spell with more than 58 energy to get any benefit. Well, even an average run of the mill ele uses around 80 energy builds, so yes this can get you a hefty sum of energy back. BUT WAIT! what if we add in those +15energy/-1 energy regeneration focii/wands? we get a maximum of 30 more energy, making this spell quite decent. for those who are a tad less lazy, you can also have 2 sets of weapons to 'switch' weapons midbattle to utilize your energy regen and Ether Prism at the same time. now on to the green weapons;

Canthan Greens

Chung's Focus:
Energy +12 (req. 9 Energy Storage)
Health +45 (while enchanted)
Energy +15
Energy Regeneration -1
(~10-18k)

Tarlok's Flagon/SnapJaw's Powerstone:
Energy +12 (req. 9 Energy Storage)
Energy +15
Energy regeneration -1
Health +30

(these might be the most useful as 9 energy storage is almost a must and the +30 health is always welcomed. market price ~15-20k)

BahnBa's Scepter:
Earth damage: 11-22 (Requires 9 Earth Magic)
Halves casting time of Earth Magic spells (Chance:20%)
Energy +15
Energy regeneration -1
(~10-20k)

none of these are very pricey, and the powerstone comes in a hot pink color too!

Collector's Items (factions only)

Storm Artifact:
(req. 9 air magic)
+15 Energy
+12 Energy
-1 Energy Regeneration
+30 Health
(5 Mantis Pincers)

Flame Artifact:
(req. 9 fire magic)
+15 Energy
+12 Energy
-1 Energy Regeneration
+30 Health
(5 jade bracelets)

Earth Scroll:
(req. 9 earth magic)
+15 Energy
+12 Energy
-1 Energy Regeneration
+30 Health
(5 dragon roots)

Frost Artifact:
(req. 9 water magic)
+15 Energy
+12 Energy
-1 Energy Regeneration
+30 Health
(5 dredge incisors)

Craftables

Maatu Keep is somewhat easy to get too as it is not very far into factions, and offers a variety of +15/-1 wands and focii to be crafted.

(thank you ensign)

Notes
Most information is from:
www.guildwarsguru.com
www.guildwiki.com

This is mainly so i remember, i just felt kind enough to post it all!

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

You can craft +15/-1 wands and foci at Maatu Keep in Cantha, as well.

Peace,
-CxE

SnipiousMax

SnipiousMax

Perfectly Elocuted

Join Date: Sep 2005

So how does this skill compare with Ether Prodigy then?

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

It might be worth the investment... But if you get seriously e-drained or need a bit more spam giving no time for yet another 2second cast energy management skill your still screwed.

Think about it... you get to low energy because you needed to blind a warrior and heal party a bit more than normal or you got hit with slightly more Power Leaks than you'd like... well good luck, you have 0 energy. Or maybe you have some, switch to a +30 set, cast it... 2 second cast time? You could hit that frigging thing with a flatbow.

This skill will never outshine Ether Prodigy... it does have more potential than the crap they released with factions though. Second Wind my arse.

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
So how does this skill compare with Ether Prodigy then? It doesnt. It does work well with focus swapping, but to hit the x2 gain, you had to have the modified energy storage score at 12 or higher. Ether prodigy works fine at lower levels, allowing for more generous splits in attribute distribution. Anything that interupts, amplifies the energy cost, or causes energy drain in any form ruins the skill. In essence its like a reverse second wind, because your post casting energy score is what matters.

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

You guys are missing one crucial point. With the +47 energery gaind from the new set of weapons, you gain 94 energy sure, but once you go back to your old set, you LOOSE 47 ENERGY, what does that leave you with? unless you have 94 energy, you are going to have 30-40....wth, its not worth it. And without the +47 energy from the weps, you need to wait till you are at half energy to use, if you use lesser energy, thats full energy every 30 sec, which isnt so bad I guess. But the thing is you can not go below 50% energy, that means 30 sec spam till 40ish, renew energy, 30 spam. With this said, you cannnot use high energy skills, they will eat the energy right out of you eneven with atune and 4 regen. The only build I can see this usefull is Mark of Rogort and Glowing Gaze, but thats 5 sec recharge. I dont know if im missing anything, but this skill doesnt look as good as it does first glance.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

It's the most unwieldy piece of emanagement in the game, but if absolutely everything falls into place, the returns aren't that bad. By that I mean, you *need* 12 Energy Storage to even think about using the thing, and you need to focus swap up to your 108 energy set to cast it. Even then you need to be casting it on a pretty fat reserve of close to 60 to get a good profit out of it. The energy returns if you can pull all that off are pretty good, actually...40some energy every 12 seconds, so like 10 pips...of course I doubt you can spend all that in the time you have to work with, and that might not even be worth it given all the hoops you had to jump through to make it work at all.

If I could bind my hat swaps to my weapon swap keys, I'd try to use it. Don't know how that'd go.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

New discovery. On the contrary to my last pesimistic post, by doing a little more math ive found out that you will have to have 26 energy left, without any bonuses while at 76 max energy at 10+2 (my standard with a sup vigor and a sup element) Heres how this works

76+47=123 total energy, you need half of this to be full in order to get the full potential of Ether Prism and still have your max energy (76) after loosing your 47 boost from the wep set.

123/2=62 (rounded because thats what GW does) energy needed to turn into 123 after EP.

62-47 from the boost=15

15+5+10 (not 25 because of glyph of lesser which costs 5)=30 energy. This is not including regen. 1 sec for GoL, 2 sec for EP
3 sec x (4/3) regen rate=4 energy

30-4=26 energy needed.
Order of operations:
1) Use up 50 (base energy, not including regen) energy in whatever way you want, this leaves you with 26
2) Put your second wep set on so, if its in your second slot, press F2.
3) Cast Glyph of Lesser Energy
4) Cast Ether Prism
5) Return back to wep set 1.

After round 1 with full energy, rinse and repeat, you will need 30 sec for GoL to charge and that means you get an extra 40 energy to play with (30s x 4/3=40) 40+50=90 energy total to use within 30 sec. that means 3 energy a second which can go fairly quick. As long as you have 26 at when GoL recharges you will be fine.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

Umm, I think people seem to be missing the point here about Ether Prism.

Has anyone seen how many potential enchantment strippers there will be in Elona? Let's take a look at the other Elementalist Energy Storage Elites:

Elemental Attunement: Elite Enchantment
Ether Prodigy: Elite Enchantment
Ether Renewal: Elite Enchantment
(also, in NF Master of Magic: Elite Enchantment)

Notice anything? Any trends at all? Now let's look at the others:

Energy Boon: Elite Spell
Ether Prism: Elite Spell

Perhaps the developpers of the game saw all the irritating threads people keep starting saying how elementalists will be powerless in Nightfall and did something about it to give us all a chance? Energy Boon may not be the greatest skill around, and Ether Prism may cost a lot of energy but if you have to do a mission where everything is a mesmer, necromancer, dervish etc... you may be glad of this skill.

Quit moaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Cast Glyph of Lesser Energy That's the spirit!

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Why the hell would you bother putting Glyph of Lesser Energy on a bar alongside a 10 pip elite?

The very concept of bringing GLE to use on your *ENERGY MANAGEMENT* skill of choice boggles the mind.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

What are you talking about? this is for Ether Prism, not Prodigy. I guess I did say EP...but now Ill have to clerify. In this thread EP=Ether Prism

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Umm, I think people seem to be missing the point here about Ether Prism.

Has anyone seen how many potential enchantment strippers there will be in Elona? Let's take a look at the other Elementalist Energy Storage Elites:

Elemental Attunement: Elite Enchantment
Ether Prodigy: Elite Enchantment
Ether Renewal: Elite Enchantment
(also, in NF Master of Magic: Elite Enchantment)

Notice anything? Any trends at all? Now let's look at the others:

Energy Boon: Elite Spell
Ether Prism: Elite Spell Second Wind: Elite Spell, worst E-management ever
Energy Boon: Exhaustion for that, are you kidding?
Energy Prism: Needs some serious control over how much energy you use and doesn't protect against e-denial

Elemental Attunement: No protection from heavy e-denial but still brilliant when covered.
Ether Renewal: Was good, but Anet took the word 'balance' out the dictionary.
Ether Prodigy: Can be used under severe energy denial, can be recast quickly, exhaustion only becomes a problem if you can't wait an additional 10 seconds.

It may not be an enchantment, the main problem with eles, but its still pretty bad. But in comparison with the other spell skills its brilliant.

i Valinor

i Valinor

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

victoria

E/R

it could just be my silly math, but dosnt it read gain 0-2 energy for each point you have. so if you have 30 energy(after cast) and use it at a lower rating say 1 for 1 you end up with 60. if you have it at a higher rating and you use it you gain 2 points for each 1 you have already you should have 90e when its done casting.

thats pretty sweet. normally if im running fire or earth i use glyph or energy to aviod the exhaustion, and if im running air i run eather prodigy.. but this added with some of the new ele skills is going to make me change my builds.


the 25 energy casts hurst i guess we will just have to see how it works out. i will hold judgment until i can use it

iV

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
What are you talking about? Using Glyph of Lesser Energy alongside Ether Prism. It is stupid. Stupid stupid.


Prism is very strong if you have 12 in Energy Storage for some reason, and don't mind playing the crazy focus swap game. It's pretty shitty otherwise. It's a poorly designed skill, but hey, you deal with what you get.

Peace,
-CxE

Falconer

Falconer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2005

One of the biggest things about this skill I notice is that unlike most others it doesn't give the target exhaustion. This frees up a lot of skills for consideration which would have been hard picks before such as gale with their added exhaustion... normally it's the exhaustion limit I find which limits the heal party animal. Also it pairs very well with a single attunement, while not locking the energy expenditure into elementalist skills.

On the other side, as others have stated, when it's used the elementalist is most vulnerable to energy denial. And even before that, it's the very definition of 'you have to have energy, to make energy' (yeah money I know, but it fits). And it's not just debilitation of your 'capital', it's also active interupts. It hurts to 'lose' 25 energy to a savage shot or power block and not get the 50 back you were expecting. If you are going to play with it in PvP I heavily suggest bringing glyph of concentration lest any mesmers or rangers take notice of you.

That much said, with all the above, if you're ready to go through the focus swapping fun, it isn't a bad skill. Just as normal, be aware of the alternatives and what it brings to the table for you over them.

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Using Glyph of Lesser Energy alongside Ether Prism. It is stupid. Stupid stupid.


Prism is very strong if you have 12 in Energy Storage for some reason, and don't mind playing the crazy focus swap game. It's pretty shitty otherwise. It's a poorly designed skill, but hey, you deal with what you get. Of course if second wind had the multiplying mechanic that ether prism has, then that might actually be worth taking. Ether prism would have to get its cost down (~10) and the multiplication curve improved to roughly (0-3~4) for it to be flexable enough to be considered usable even under focus swap conditions. Until then, eles are probably going to be chained down to ether prodigy until it gets nerfed into uselessness.

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconer
One of the biggest things about this skill I notice is that unlike most others it doesn't give the target exhaustion. This frees up a lot of skills for consideration which would have been hard picks before such as gale with their added exhaustion... normally it's the exhaustion limit I find which limits the heal party animal. Also it pairs very well with a single attunement, while not locking the energy expenditure into elementalist skills.
No the trade-off for no exhaustion is an utterly moronic energy cost and a stupid cast time. So therefore it still absolutely sucks in comparison to Ether Prodigy. In comparison to Second Wind and Energy Boon its brilliant (lets be honest, what isn't?) but it still pales in comparison to the original 2 elites... Its yet another elite that is either purely to make up numbers OR purely for enemies to use.

Quote: On the other side, as others have stated, when it's used the elementalist is most vulnerable to energy denial. And even before that, it's the very definition of 'you have to have energy, to make energy' (yeah money I know, but it fits). And it's not just debilitation of your 'capital', it's also active interupts. It hurts to 'lose' 25 energy to a savage shot or power block and not get the 50 back you were expecting. If you are going to play with it in PvP I heavily suggest bringing glyph of concentration lest any mesmers or rangers take notice of you. Making you spend another 5 energy, And even then theres a chance the glyph itself may get distracted, or even better still, hit with a Psychic Distraction. Once you go lower than 40 energy (inc. focus swap) this skill has no use anymore.

Quote:
That much said, with all the above, if you're ready to go through the focus swapping fun, it isn't a bad skill. Just as normal, be aware of the alternatives and what it brings to the table for you over them. If your prepared to go through focus swapping, managing energy perfectly, not casting when its needed most becuase otherwise your energy is screwed up... its too volatile.

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Using Glyph of Lesser Energy alongside Ether Prism. It is stupid. Stupid stupid.


Prism is very strong if you have 12 in Energy Storage for some reason, and don't mind playing the crazy focus swap game. It's pretty ###### otherwise. It's a poorly designed skill, but hey, you deal with what you get.

Peace,
-CxE
Stupid? why? less cost means more initial energy means more output....this way you can cast other spells for longer without having to use EP.

y(f)=2(x-25)

as you can see y is a function of f, being twice the initial energy minus 25 cost from EP. As you lower the initial cost, you gain more revenue.

lets try an example, at 80 energy, with your current weapon set and elemnetal hat, you will need a 39 energy pool to regain full energy after casting EP and doing the wep set switch.

80-39=41, this means you can only use half of your max energy in combat before you have to recharge again. You have 20 seconds to use up 27(from the 20 sec regen)+41=68 energy. That means 3.4 energy a sec...and as much as that looks, it goes prettey fast, remember regen was already added.

the minimum pool of 39 energy was derived from:
80 base +47 from wep set#2=127
127/2=63.5 rounds to 64
64 minus 47=17
17+25(cost of EP)=42
42-2(4/3)=39, this is the energy gained from 2 sec of regen.

Now lets see what happens when we use glyph of lesser energy.

80 base +47=127
127/2=63.5 rounds to 64
64 minus 47=17
17+5+10=32
32-3(4/3)=28 this is for the cast of GoLE and EP

This means you need a minimmum of 28 energy which is much safer than 39.
At 0 energy, you will need to wait 12 sec to recharge to 28 to boost to 80. 11 energy makes a big difference. Using GoLE the first time, then without the second time should be good enough for any battle. GoLE aldo lasts for 15 sec, technically you could be at 0 energy, wait till 5, cast GoLE, wait 8 sec and cast EP and you would be at 80. IMHO GoLE makes a big difference. it also makes energy denial have a less inpact on you.

trialist

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

He is saying it is stupid because the whole point of bringing an ELITE energy management skill is so that that skill is able to help you manage your energy by itself. Having to use yet another energy management skill to make your elite energy management skill manageable, instead of just using that glyph of lesser energy on other skills to help with your energy management is stupid. An elite energy management skill should be able to stand on its own without needing another energy management skill to even make it workable.

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

Well Ele atune works well alone, works much better with another atunement.
I dont think there are many skills out there let alone elites that work well on its own without combos and such. the only one on the top of my head is Ether Prodigy, very easy to use. And Flare as a simple one. MS needs to be somehow managed either with GoR or GoE, ViM needs conditions to be spread, Powerful skills often have a down side, by chaining skills you can reduce unwanted loss, there will still be comesort of loss, because you do loose a skill slot, maybe more risky or takes more time, but your end product is usually better. Im just saying that with GoLE, you can be a little more liberal about your energy usage. Maybe to Ensign, another skill slot is more important as he has another string of skills he wants, but for me, It would be nuking central. nuking takes a lot of energy, and I want to get in as much damage as I can before recharging.

inscribed

inscribed

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Stupid? why? less cost means more initial energy means more output....this way you can cast other spells for longer without having to use EP.
I don't think I've ever seen Ensign make a false statement on these forums, especially when it comes to elementalists. I usually make a point of trying to catch his posts, just because I usually pick up a thing or two from them. I've definitely changed my perspective of playing elementalists from reading his stuff.

Just saying, if you're going to call him out, make sure you double check your reasoning before doing so.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Putting in an Energy management skill just to make your Elite Energy management skill is stupid, meaning there are better choices.

FrogDevourer

FrogDevourer

on a GW break until C4

Join Date: Feb 2005

In your shadow

Servants of Fortuna

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Well Ele atune works well alone, works much better with another atunement. The big difference is that GoLE is about 10% as efficient as Ether Prism, whereas a fire attunement is 60% as efficient as elemental attunement (at least for a mono-fire build). Both attunements are more powerful when used together because they stack and allow you to spam mono-element spells quite well. On the contrary GoLE is a flat 10e every 30s. It doesn't stack with EP and it doesn't improve the efficiency of EP.

The word stupid is probably harsh but the idea is that you're wasting a precious skill slot for a "not so exciting" non-elite energy management (1 pip) when you should ride on your 10 pip elite (provided that you like focus swapping).

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

It's 4 AM, I can't sleep, and I'm punchy. This is what happens when you give an insomniac a laptop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Stupid? why?
Because immediately after putting a ridiculously good piece of emanagement on your bar, you looked to a patently terrible piece of energy management because for some reason the 25 in the cost of the thing scared you.


Quote: Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime less cost means more initial energy means more output.... Wrong. Ether Prism is going to give you the exact same returns no matter what. Pip Glyph is going to give you 10 per cast, period.


Quote: Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime as you can see y is a function of f, being twice the initial energy minus 25 cost from EP. That's not the useful form of the relationship. The equation I care about is the *max profit per cast*. That equation is:

<profit> = 2/3 * <max energy> - 25.

You don't get any funky multiplicitive effects from changing the cost on Prism. If you reduce it by 10, you simply save 10 energy.

For those of you at home, the value of <profit> at 12 ES, used with perfect timing, is 47.

With natural regen firing this thing off optimally, you will have 9.25 seconds to use up a bit more than 61 energy.

You are going to have to try really, really bloody hard to spend energy that fast.


Quote: Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
At 0 energy, you will need to wait 12 sec to recharge to 28 to boost to 80. What does that have to do with anything? 0 energy? What are you doing getting close to that? You fire this thing off every time your energy gets down to around 60/108, because it is going to be recharged, and never even smell energy that low.

The way you actually play this thing, is with a -5 energy weapon and a shield as your main set. You swap and fire this thing off when you're around 10-12 current energy, which brings you back up to full. You should only be smelling 0/61 energy if you're getting Prism interrupted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
it also makes energy denial have a less inpact on you. See, you think you're clever here. Here's my question - how much does an Elementalist who is refilling his energy to full every 12 seconds, running around on 16 pips of effective regen, care about edenial?

Quick answer for you cheaters - he doesn't care. At all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Im just saying that with GoLE, you can be a little more liberal about your energy usage. I cannot fathom what you think you are getting out of that 17th pip of energy that the first 16 could not provide for you.

You would rather waste a second skill slot and a couple of seconds of your time to allow you to cast that last Fireball a couple of seconds earlier, is that what I'm hearing?

But you know what the real problem with this is? If for whatever reason you absolutely did need to spend that 10 energy right then and there.

Who cares?

You get 16 pips from Prism. Spending that 10 costs you 20 later. That drops your net regen down to 15.5 pips.

Who cares?

When I was playing with the skill, I didn't even try very hard to maximize it - I'd be lax on letting it sit there recharged, or I'd fire it off high or low by a pretty healthy margin. I probably only netted 8 pips out of the thing, for 12 pips total.

Who cares?

Ether Prism, if you have the patience to focus swap for it and the attributes to support it, gives you way more energy than you could even think of ever spending. The reason you will not use this skill is because you cannot afford to pump Energy Storage to 12, or because this getting interrupted is death.

Peace,
-CxE

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Second Wind: Elite Spell, worst E-management ever Haa haa - yes! I have only ever used it once. After having the elite for a few months and having never looked at it once I decided to try a "concept build" whereby I took Second Wind, Gale and Chain Lightening (amongst Others) into the Ring of Fire mission.

Oh dear. That's all you can say.

Good thing this skill is under "non attribute" because if it was under "energy storage" it would be more of a joke than it already is!

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Haa haa - yes! I have only ever used it once. After having the elite for a few months and having never looked at it once I decided to try a "concept build" whereby I took Second Wind, Gale and Chain Lightening (amongst Others) into the Ring of Fire mission.

Oh dear. That's all you can say.

Good thing this skill is under "non attribute" because if it was under "energy storage" it would be more of a joke than it already is! It can provide a level of energy comparable to Ether Prodigy, simply with different drawbacks and sees a reasonable amount of high end play. Don't laugh at it too much, you can get 4 pips out of the thing.

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
It's 4 AM, I can't sleep, and I'm punchy. This is what happens when you give an insomniac a laptop.




Because immediately after putting a ridiculously good piece of emanagement on your bar, you looked to a patently terrible piece of energy management because for some reason the 25 in the cost of the thing scared you.




Wrong. Ether Prism is going to give you the exact same returns no matter what. Pip Glyph is going to give you 10 per cast, period.




That's not the useful form of the relationship. The equation I care about is the *max profit per cast*. That equation is:

<profit> = 2/3 * <max energy> - 25.

You don't get any funky multiplicitive effects from changing the cost on Prism. If you reduce it by 10, you simply save 10 energy.

For those of you at home, the value of <profit> at 12 ES, used with perfect timing, is 47.

With natural regen firing this thing off optimally, you will have 9.25 seconds to use up a bit more than 61 energy.

You are going to have to try really, really bloody hard to spend energy that fast.




What does that have to do with anything? 0 energy? What are you doing getting close to that? You fire this thing off every time your energy gets down to around 60/108, because it is going to be recharged, and never even smell energy that low.

The way you actually play this thing, is with a -5 energy weapon and a shield as your main set. You swap and fire this thing off when you're around 10-12 current energy, which brings you back up to full. You should only be smelling 0/61 energy if you're getting Prism interrupted.




See, you think you're clever here. Here's my question - how much does an Elementalist who is refilling his energy to full every 12 seconds, running around on 16 pips of effective regen, care about edenial?

Quick answer for you cheaters - he doesn't care. At all.




I cannot fathom what you think you are getting out of that 17th pip of energy that the first 16 could not provide for you.

You would rather waste a second skill slot and a couple of seconds of your time to allow you to cast that last Fireball a couple of seconds earlier, is that what I'm hearing?

But you know what the real problem with this is? If for whatever reason you absolutely did need to spend that 10 energy right then and there.

Who cares?

You get 16 pips from Prism. Spending that 10 costs you 20 later. That drops your net regen down to 15.5 pips.

Who cares?

When I was playing with the skill, I didn't even try very hard to maximize it - I'd be lax on letting it sit there recharged, or I'd fire it off high or low by a pretty healthy margin. I probably only netted 8 pips out of the thing, for 12 pips total.

Who cares?

Ether Prism, if you have the patience to focus swap for it and the attributes to support it, gives you way more energy than you could even think of ever spending. The reason you will not use this skill is because you cannot afford to pump Energy Storage to 12, or because this getting interrupted is death.

Peace,
-CxE To Ensign, unlike you, I didnt play with the skill directly, im only relying on what it says, I have no hands on experience. If you claim that its great even without GoLE, thats fine, i really cant argue with experience. But in math I can.

You said that EP gives the same no matter your energy level? thats plain wrong, it doubles your initial which means if you start at 26 energy, you loose 25, leaving you with 1 which doubles into 2. as opposed to having 60 energy, minus 25=35, 35x2=70, net gain 1 vs net gain 10.

taking off 10 energy to cast EP means you get +20 energy, not just 10.
At 2(60-25)=70
compared to 2(60-5-10)=90.

or 2(40-25)=30
vs 2(40-5-10)=50

the difference is 20 energy.

if you use EP at 60 energy of 108, you gain a net of 10...
2(60-25)=70
you just went from 60 to 70. One spell costs 10. And you also said 108 energy which means max energy storage and a 15/-1 wep, which means only 1 energy a sec, thats 30 energy to spend in 20 sec, an ele can spend that in 2-6 seconds.

You know what, you play the way you want to because youve used it before and everyones saying you're so pro. If it works for you then great, more power to eles. If it doesnt then I win, but I also lose because less power to eles.

and I too hate second wind and exhaustion for that matter. What do you guys think? I think Anet should put out a few more exhaustion management skills. There is only GoE now which leaves little room for creativity. Maybe a non elite "Gyph of Compromise" cast time 1, recharge 15, cost 5: your next spell does not cause exhaustion but costs 15 more energy to cast

And something like GoR non elite, but instead Glyph of Compensasion: cost 5, cast 1, recharge 15: your next skill recharges instantly, but costs 15 more energy to cast.

BIG EDIT: Oh shoot the recharge time is 10....I thought it was 20....10 makes a big difference. I guess GoLE doesnt matter that much anymore. but if you want to save 20 energy every 30 sec add it in! , No you are right. at 10 recharge you can keep your energy really high easily. Sorry for the trouble.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
You said that EP gives the same no matter your energy level?
I never said that. In fact I spelled out the relationship explicitly - <profit> = 2/3 * <max energy> - 25.

<profit> is directly proportional to <max energy>. I don't know where you got the idea that I thought otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
And you also said 108 energy which means max energy storage and a 15/-1 wep, which means only 1 energy a sec, thats 30 energy to spend in 20 sec, an ele can spend that in 2-6 seconds. Two +15/-1 items, 12 Energy Storage, base energy. 30 + 36 (ES) + 12 (Focus base) + 30 (mods) = 108. You go down to two pips for a bit under 3 seconds, which costs you about 2 energy. Otherwise you're regenning at a full four pips.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
and I too hate second wind and exhaustion for that matter. What do you guys think? Exhaustion is awesome. It lets you consume all of that empty max energy capacity later in a fight and turn it into useful effects. They need to explore that mechanic more, it's outstanding for Elementalists.

I'm not a very big fan of Second Wind. It's ok, but it's extremely fragile. You really have to micromanage your exhaustion and energy to get full benefit out of it, and one interrupt really ruins your day. I also dislike how slow it is in general - the timing on casting it isn't all that flexible, and doing so keeps you from responding to anything for what feels like a really long time.

If you want to use Second Wind and not blow up messily, you need to kinda slow roll it. Instead of trying to always hit the maxline, you want to come up a bit short every time. That way if the thing gets interrupted, you're not immediately plunged into exhaustion hell.

The skill is ok, if you can't use Prodigy for whatever reason (usually, Tranquility) then Second Wind is an OK substitute. I wouldn't recommend it though, since it's a lot less flexible and less powerful than Ether Prodigy on the whole.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

"Ether Prism is going to give you the exact same returns no matter what. "

You did say that, but it doesnt really matter anymore. I was wrong, you dont need GoLE because EP only has 10 sec recharge which means....thats its an awesome energy management skill! I think this could be used for Ele bonding. Its safer than Ether Prodigy as it can be removed, no exhaustion and no health loss.

And I made a pvp to test out your little formula, adn it was right, again i was wrong. So sorry for any trouble. I didnt add in the original weapon's energy that you had to take off of the max, then the new one is added. When I did my calcs, I just added the new ones. I very much respect you and hopr you forgive my ignorance.

Im also wondering about why exhaustion is powerful (in a good way).

Peace,
-HyP

Master Fuhon

Master Fuhon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Im also wondering about why exhaustion is powerful (in a good way). It's powerful in that it has potential to be powerful, but it wasn't being executed properly. Second Wind and Ether Prodigy are the only skills that squeeze every last ounce of efficiency out of the Energy Storage attribute. Like people say all the time, "I would gladly trade that enormous buffer of an energy bar for an extra pip of regen". And thats what you do with these skills; too bad they are all elite, and too bad exhaustion is a fixed amount.

Trading large amounts of energy to gain massive amounts of energy is a stupid game mechanic to work with (when you've already invented the concept of exhaustion). Play Warrior for a while and get used to the idea of having two energy bars (energy and adrenaline). Then, take a skill like Shock/Gale and start making use of a third bar. That's why you don't burn out.

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

Oh i see. So its like instead of Obisidian Flame costsing eg. 15 energy because its so powerful, it only costs 5 and you take off energy from your max that isnt being caught up to by your energy amount anyways. I guess its a good finisher.

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Oh i see. So its like instead of Obisidian Flame costsing eg. 15 energy because its so powerful, it only costs 5 and you take off energy from your max that isnt being caught up to by your energy amount anyways. I guess its a good finisher. More like instead of costing 35e.

Master Fuhon

Master Fuhon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
More like instead of costing 35e.
Yea, that's more like it. I'd compare it to Lightning Hammer 25 energy, 15 second recharge, and an instant hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Oh i see. So its like instead of Obisidian Flame costsing eg. 15 energy because its so powerful, it only costs 5 and you take off energy from your max that isnt being caught up to by your energy amount anyways. I guess its a good finisher. 10 exhaustion spent is a far steeper price to pay than 10 energy when you consider spell spamming and the slower rate of exhaustion regen. It's a great skill, but when you use it, it automatically forces your elite. That means obsidian flame is on a 3 second cast time, and a recharge of 15 seconds again. But at least it's 5 energy again, and you can still come up with ways of spending the energy and exhaustion again.

Obsidian Flame (elite skill) - 5 energy cost, 3 second cast time, 15 second recharge, 22-118 armor ignoring damage. This skill takes up two places on your bar.

That's close to what it looks like to me (although not exactly how it is), when you consider that the times you would take the exhaustion hit are similar to the times when the recharge of your wand/stave would hit. But using earth skills and putting in all those attribute points... bleh.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
You did say that, but it doesnt really matter anymore.
Read the context of that quote. I've seen several people on these forums talking about how GLE + Ether Prism is some killer combo, when it is *completely irrelevant* what skill you Glyph. There isn't some magical synergy between GLE and Prism, as opposed to the great synergy between the Attunements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime
Im also wondering about why exhaustion is powerful (in a good way). Once your energy is depleted, what does that empty capacity do for you? Nothing. Until you get to take a break or fire off some emanagement, refilling your bar, that capacity doesn't do anything for you. Hence, exhaustion really doesn't matter until you've picked up enough of it that it starts to cut into your *current* energy. Until then, the difference between exhausted energy capacity and empty energy capacity is irrelevant.

There are a few skills that are very cheap, but compensate for their low price by causing exhaustion. Those let you effectively 'cheat' on costs, by spending empty energy instead of current energy. That's the value of exhaustion skills, it lets you spend empty energy. Now, a lot of exhaustion skills suck - they have all the problems normal skills have, plus they have exhuastion tacked on. But when you look at the Mind skills, or Gale, or Obsidian Flame - those are all really cheap and spammable, they just cost you exhaustion instead of energy. So once you have some empty capacity, you can start working your exhaustion down in parallel. As long as it never cuts into your current energy, you haven't really lost anything.

Personally, if my bar never has any exhaustion on it that's regenerating, I feel like I'm not doing enough. That's a valuable resource that I should be exploiting after all. =)

Peace,
-CxE

I Brother Bloood I

I Brother Bloood I

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2006

Good question

If ur me... And no that energy mangement shouldnt be to much of a problem with the average 70-80 nrg then you would know that its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid and spamming high energy spells. You wanna know something about ether prodigy? it removes all enchantments! no surprise to some of you... but what if instead of losing ur enchantments u get to keep your attunement and use something around the lines of mind blast. If u didnt notice thats like nrg management with dmg.

Lets get back to ether prism though. This is definatley not a good skill compared to ether prodigy. Its to conditional especially since you usually need e management when your LOW on nrg... Focus swapping doesnt really solve the problem either. Maybe if u had -nrg focus and +nrg focus ud be able to get a good use of it. U still have to factor in the -25 nrg u use or the -10 if u use glyph lesser nrg.

Why isnt second wind a good nrg management? U first spam it until your 25-50% exhaustion(maintain this exhaustion). Then you should be smart and use non exhaustion spells and its a very good e management when coupled with your attunement.

Im not gonna bring up ele attune. But im going to bring up my favorite ele nrg management... GLYPH OF ENERGY!!!11 omg this is the best for eles. They can have high nrg exhaustion spells and use them with no regrets...

when it comes down to it ether prism isnt worth it... neither is any of the enchantment e management.(except for mantra of recall) Glyph of Energy is a glyph which helps against some interupts form mesmers. Second Wind can give u much more energy than ether prodigy. lets just leave it at that...

around

around

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Aussie Trolling Crew - Diplomatic Embassy

I Have Three Pennies [Pnny] - forever in my heart <3

R/

The problem is, energy storage needs a complete overhaul, because it's like having additional energy armour. The only class which really NEEDS additional energy armour is assassins, and with decent Crit strikes even they should be fine.

Additional energy is useless though. All it gives you is a few extra spells at the start of a fight. After that, energy management becomes much more useful. Hence, if they turned energy management into something along the lines that you gained extra energy regen for every rank in ES, then Eles as a class would be much more useful.

Symbol

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
If ur me... And no that energy mangement shouldnt be to much of a problem with the average 70-80 nrg then you would know that its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid and spamming high energy spells. Apparently you don't have a clue. Estorage is not energy management, for the umpteenth time.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I
its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid...but what if instead of losing ur enchantments u get to keep your attunement and use something around the lines of mind blast.
If you didn't notice, Mind Blast is an elite energy management spell. A fairly good one, at that.


Quote: Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I Lets get back to ether prism though. This is definatley not a good skill compared to ether prodigy. Its to conditional especially since you usually need e management when your LOW on nrg...
If you're not retarded and have learned to fire off your energy management skills as soon as you can, you will never even get to be low on energy.

If you have Energy Drain on your bar, you don't wait until you have 5 energy left to cast it. You cast it as soon as you have ~15 empty energy, to refill completely.

The amount of energy you need to have in your capacity to fire off an emanagement skill only affects its fragility. I don't care if I want to maintain high energy (Mind Blast) or low energy (Ether Prodigy) for the most part - I just care about reaching a stable level of energy flow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I
GLYPH OF ENERGY!!!11 omg this is the best for eles. They can have high nrg exhaustion spells and use them with no regrets... I would regret having high energy exhaustion spells on my bar, personally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I
Second Wind can give u much more energy than ether prodigy. lets just leave it at that... Actually, no, it can't. Second Wind gives about 2/3 of the energy of Ether Prodigy when you're stabilizing with it, and doesn't have a nice ramp-up period like Prodigy does when building exhaustion. You can slowroll it a little bit, running it at maybe 3/4 efficiency to have the ability to fire it off twice in a pinch...but that's as explosive as it gets.

I don't dislike the skill, but it's a lot weaker than Prodigy - and a TON weaker than Ether Prism, if you have the Energy Storage to cover it.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime

Hyprodimus Prime

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Vancouver BC

Sorrow Masters

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Apparently you don't have a clue. E-storage is not energy management, for the umpteenth time. Thats right. Although the skills in "Energy Storage" have some good Energy Management properties. And with a new light on exhaustion, more energy=more exhaustion room so you can cast powerful EXhaustion spells. I got tot try an exhaustion build.

Symbol

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Can anyone come up with a build that actually uses all the energy that ether prism gives you? The only one I can think of is an E/Me mass degen spreader, cast conjure nightmare and images of remorse/CP on recharge for max degen on 3 people simultaneously (with mantra of persistence of course).