Margonites - Ancient Race of Seers?

While browsing through the preorder bonus pack it struck me that the concept art for the margonite mesmer has an uncanny resemblance to the Ancient Seer we come across in Hells Precipice and Iron Mines mission.

Could it be that the margonites were the seers who wanted to ascend but could not because they were not favored by the other gods as they followed the sixth one? Could the Titans be a creation of the sixth god, whom the Mursaat were protecting Tyria from? And, was the Vizier influenced by this unknown God to unleash the Titans. If so, then the Seers helped us against the Mursaat whom, if I recall correctly, once fought the Mursaat but their race was destroyed (referance to Iron Mines mission). The Seers, having looked ath the screenshot definitely resemble the Margonite Mesmer so it could mean that the Margonites tried to unleash the Titans too.

There is a lot of backstory covered in the bonus pack which is too long to mention, but, since this is the final chapter covering gaps in the story of Prophecies and Factions, would anyone hazzard a more intelligible guess?

Discuss.

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in Guild Wars Factions lore that the Margonites are related to the Luxons, who came from Elona.

Actually, no. There was never mention of any relation between the Margonites and the Luxons. Just a potential speculative link.

Seers are Margonites? Could be. These could the good Margonites opposing their own people; or they are the remaining few manipulating the Prophecies heroes into unleashing the titans. They're actually working in concert with the Lich, until the Lich decided to backstab them and take control of the Titans himself.

Pure speculation. But I hope we don't have to fight titans again. That'd be like reusing old stuff. Besides... I still haven't finished the titan quests yet :P

We may not fight Titans proper, but I have a strong hunch we'll be fighting their close cousins. Think Ridgeback/Jungle Skale level correspondence.

Reason? Guess I'm still not over the fact that the Titans came out of Abadon's Mouth.

I want to know how to browse the pre-order pack... All I have is audio tracks.

Huh? Just the CD autostart run. Or you can browse over to your CD drive and run the "start" (iirc).

I remember reading about margonites in the crystal desert, how they were a group of water race that roamed around the ocean and came to crystal desert (when it is still under water). Those boat in crystal desert were theirs, and they were one of the foolish race who thought they were the chosen.

I think you mean that the Margonites were seafaring folk, not a water race. Well, I don't think I am allowed to post concept art from the bonus pack, otherwise I would have shown two comparitive images to show you guys how uncanny the resemblance really is.

People have pretty much posted all the concept art from the bonus disc throughout various threads. No mods have said anything against it yet.

Its not like a closed beta.. anyways, as soon as i get home im taking a second look at that pack.

I went to read it again, (from the ghostly hero in thirsty river).

They had a "sea-going culture", and simply floated to the only land above water in crystal desert. They made a tower and read their petition to the gods in an earthly fashion. The tower ruins remain as a symbol of magornite failure.

Am I the only one who doesn't see the resemblance? I mean, the Seer has feet, if I remember right, while the Margonites have "peglegs." Also, the seer's skin was noticably darker. The only resemblance I see is that they're both humanoid.

What about 4 arms (the mesmer) and hands of similar features, if memory serves me right then also wing like features.

That seems to me like saying that dogs and cats both have four limbs, and have the same number of toes, and of course, fur. Therefore, they are the same.

I maintain that the Margonites don't have feet. It seems to me that what they DON'T have in common would be a better way to go, otherwise we'll just end up with cats and dogs. No offense, of course.

Seers do have feet but they do not stand on it, they float which is what the Margonites seem to be doing. And bear in mind, in game model doesn't always end up looking exactly like concept art.

Also, here is a quote from GW Wiki which supports that the Margonites could be the Seers race.

"It has recently been revealed that, roughly a thousand years ago, the Margonites worshipped an unnamed evil sixth god, who blessed them with horrific transformations that granted them awesome power, and waged war against the followers of the Five Gods of Tyria. The epic battle between the Margonites and the followers of the Five Gods devastated northern Elona, creating the Crystal Desert."

In the first in-game cinematic Anet released, we see a Margonite in-game, and it also bears the same "peglegs" that both the Margonite Mesmer and Margonite Paragon have in the concept art, looking decidely more like the Paragon. That mesmer isn't the only example of the Margonites we have, and the Seer resembles the Paragon much less than it does the Mesmer. However, I'm not sure that anyone knows for sure what the Seer's gender is, so I won't argue that point

Also, that statement from the guide is questionable, as it contradicts many of the things already stated in-game, but that's an argument for another thread.\

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for posting that picture, I was looking for it. And I can now safely say that that Mesmer has six eyes and the Seer doesn't

To edit my edit: Although, seeing as they supposedly worship Abaddon, and Abaddon has six eyes in the images we've seen, that could be a ceremonial mask to mimick that. Although it still seems more likely that they have six eyes, just from the way it looks.

I think that this could be true. As far as the seers being margonites (most likely distant genetic cousins). The differences in appearance could have occured at the time when the margonites started worshipping this sixth god. It makes sense that not all of them jumped on the band wagon so to speak, creating the race of seers. The margonites that did start worshipping this sixth god would have been given the different appearance to set them appart from the seers by said sixth god. Even if the margonites in nightfall and the seers in prophecies are the same race and the seers do worrship the sixth god then the difference in appearance can be explained by a millennia (sp?) and an ocean of seperation. Also known as evolution. Seers might have been forced to mate with humans at times to keep from the dreaded "shallow gene pool" effect hence giving them two eyes instead of six?? .....Just some thoughts....

Excuse me if i'm going completely off-topic but...

Maybe the Margonites actually are the seers.
We know some Margonites tried to ascend with the tower(those that failled), maybe some of them acheived it and joined the Old Gods, the others must have turn their backs on them and Abadon enlisted them. They then waged war against each others, at this point the Mursaats must have had an advantage with their Spectral Agony (since I think the seers discovered infusion after they were wiped out).

So Abadon reveal/summon the titans at the Ring of Fire (maybe because the bloodstone was buried at this place, or was it placed there later in history?), they then slaughtered a couple of Mursaats before being sealed by the door of Komalie(sorry if i spelled it wrong).
But wait, if i'm right the blood stone was set there by the gods and the Mursaats use them to fuel the door of Komalie, what if the stone was put there to help the Mursaats maintain the seal (since they wanted to take magic away from men, they killed 2 birds with 1 rock!).

With the titans out of the way, the mursaats counter-attacked the Margonites who must not have given too much resistance. One of the last group discovered the technique of Infusion. The Mursaats probably killed them the good old way (no Spectral Agony) untill only 1 was left (as far as we know) : the Seer.

That would mean we played the bad role in Prophecy, and also that the Seer/Glint wind up being evil... And if the Charr are worshiping the Titans, that means a) The Titans stayed in Tyria long enough to be worshiped or b)They were living in Tyria the whole time (maybe in the NorthLands) and maybe the Margonites wanted to ascend to be able to defeat them with the help of the Gods.

Of course this doesn't explain the Jade/Forgotten armor but that's because i'm too tired to think about it, right now. Also to back up my theory, remember a mission in the Ring os Fire is called Abadon's Mouth, which makes me think that he summoned them there.

The Mursaat also float.. hmm, maybe they were protecting the Titans from the Lich so they could await the return of the 6th god, Abaddon? And that Margonite mesmer has 6 eyes, like the concept of little Abaddon lol. Possible, the Margonites, Seers, and Mursaat were all from a similar race, much like our own sapien gene pool?

So what ur saying the glint may of have some desire of his own in this?

Before anyone say it,I looked at the manuscript and I know the Bloodstone thing doesn't work or would need some changes in the dates.

Perhaps not, I think she is called prophet or oracle. If so, maybe she just did what she was meant to do, receive the prophecy from the god (be it the Olds or Abaddon) and saw it fulfilled. With out knowing the final outcome.
If memory serves she says that we must save Tyria, so either a)I am completely wrong, b) there is a twist in the story i did not understood or will be revealed in NightFall or c) She was tricked/corrupted by Abaddon. (doubt about the corruption ending)

Furthermore, the serpentine race of the Forgotten also have four arms... perhaps its just a coincidence that ANET Guild Wars design team likes four arms? I would like to think otherwise. I pretty much do think that the Mursaat were possibly protecting Tyria from the Titans. Also, if we remember from Krytan history, they helped save Kryta from the Charr, whom as we know had Titan effigies. It certainly adds up now. Not only did the Mursaat seal the door from Titans, they also helped Krytans against Titan worshippers (the Charr).

yea, but why would anet bother with two races that (while they may be cats and dogs) are very similar

Seers float, have feet, dark skin, are wholly covered in dark outfits and have two eyes. Margonites don't float (I don't think, at least), have no feet, don't have dark skin, their clothing doesn't even resemble the Seers' pointy emo-esque gear and they have six eyes. They're perhaps realllly distant cousins of one another. Something like Dwarves-Humans.

Meh.

I think the seer from prophecies and the margonites are similar species. But not the same. I mean look at tengu from chapter 1 and 2.

Idk youd look pretty emo after what 1000 years of being the only human and not dieing.... Maybe the margonites mutation only came after each tryed ascension and inevitably failed. The seer being able to see the future said no thanks to the idea and fled. Abadon then takes the fallen margonites mutates them alittle more and voila new and improved.

same concept artist in a rut.

Where the hell do you get all of this info about the margonites and stuff? im checking guildwiki. lol

Do we have images of Abbadon? Where can I find them?
Not true. I can think of four seers from the top of my head: The seer in the Iron Mines mission, the one in Ring of Fire, the one in Mineral Springs, and the one that gives you the Hell's Percicpe's bonus. These are NOT all the same seers.

There's one in Abaddon's Mouth, too.

There is an argument that they are just the one Seer, though - He/she/it is just moving with the players like the other NPCs.

I've never seen a Seer in Mineral Springs. Where is it?

Yes, I think there is only 1 Seer too Draxynnic. Otherwise, you can say there are many Little Thoms. Each one is different because some of them are at different skill levels.

Hypothesis: The mursaat were protecting Tyria (wether or not for their own good).

Facts: The followers of the Sixth God were fought and defeated in the area that is now known as the Crystal Desert (the war actually created this wasteland).
Mursaat armor looks VERY similar to the Enchanted Armors.
Glint knew the Vizier was in fact the Lich, but 'forgets' to mention it.
The Seers and Forgotten are aligned with whatever Glint serves.
The Seers fought the Mursaat, they lost.

Speculation: Seers and Mursaat both participated in the war that created the Crystal Desert. After the war, the armor of the mursaat warriors were reanimated. Since the Seers lost and the Mursaat prevailed, the Mursaat were probably on the side of good and the Seers on the side of the 6th god. Now we also know that the Seers are aligned with Glint, so we could draw the conclusion that Glint is aligned with the 6th god as well. Glint being evil is confirmed by the fact that she remained silent about the Viziers true intentions.

Speculation based on speculations: Glint wanted you to help the Lich into opening the door to the underworld. She had also forseen that you would defeat the Lich afterwards. Titans are probably not aligned with the 6th god, but just a malign force on their own. Throughout Earth mythology, Titans and giants have always opposed the Gods. Anyway, opening the gate for the Titans, also opened the gate for the 6th god, who could enter the mortal realm as a spirit. Parallel to this event, another spirit in Cantha was tempted by a messenger of the 6th god (Kuunavang), to become flesh again. Shiro extensivly researched ways of becoming flesh again. But when he found a way, Kuunavang betrayed him and give his adversaries Celestrial powers to defeat him. The ritual of becoming flesh again could be copied, without anyone knowing about it anymore, except Kuunavang and thus the 6th god.


Mursaat killed the chosen to stop the ascension and to power the bloodstone that kept the Titans out.
Glint ordered her Forgotten to kill any intruders that sought to speak to her.

Now which is the greater evil?

Kuunavang wants to kill you in the first place, but when she gets close to dying, she suddenly changed back to 'normal', how could killing someone for 99% take away the control Shiro has over her. Maybe there was no control...

Now which is the greater evil?

Characters with her level of power are rarely void of any personal agenda.

Per the Seer/Margonite question: I sense some sort of link, as if they were created by the same deity, yet they evolved in different climates (Tyria and Elona), and as such developed different belief systems and altered physical features. Because of their differences in their development/evolution, a meeting between the two groups could very well have brought about conflict. Because the Exodus of the Gods occurred 1,072 years before the Prophecies campaign, the Seers may have been without higher assistance in the fight against their dark counterparts. Abaddon is banished, but there are certainly other dark gods, and since it is very possible that Abaddon is merely an alias for Dhuum, the possibilities begin to seem less far-fetched. If the Seers from Prophecies are the only survivors loyal to the Old Gods of Tyria, their role in the campaign makes sense.

Glint is 3,000 years old, and her lore leaves much to be explored at this point. Her personality seems at least slightly manipulative and self-motivated, despite her dedication to the Chosen. She is certainly old enough to have lived through the Exodus of the Gods, and as she is a creation of the Old Gods, I would hope that her aims are aligned with theirs. Our hopes don't have a major influence on plot development, however.

On the cat/dog comparison:

Cats and dogs, while not the same species or even genus, are actually pretty closely related in the grand scheme of things. They're both mammals, they both have a four-limbed body plan, and so on. This doesn't mean that cat=dog, of course, but they are much more closely related than, say, cats and snakes .

With this knowledge, we can have a look at what I'm going to refer to as the 'elder' races of Guild Wars - the Mursaat, Seer(s), Forgotten and Margonites. Without magical manipulation, of these the only ones that can be even as closely related as dogs and cats are the Seer(s) and Margonites - they both follow a six-limbed body plan. Forgotten and Mursaat both follow a four-limbed body plan, and, furthermore, the Forgotten are reptilian. The Mursaat, on the other hand, appear, if anything, most closely related to humans and dwarves - two arms, two legs, and appear to be mammalian and even humanoid if you look past the 'wings'.

Of these, the only one directly referred to in the manuals are the Forgotten and the Margonites. The former were the caretakers of Tyria, but retreated to the Crystal Desert when humans took over. (It is worth noting that one interpretation of the manual isn't that they were forced out by humanity - instead that they felt it wasn't worth fighting over and left for a land that humanity wasn't interested in to avoid conflict, and in doing so found another purpose - the guarding of the location of Ascension). The latter appear to have been followers of Abaddon who sought to Ascend before the desert became the desert, and their war led to the creation of the desert. The Seers and Mursaat, as far as I can find, are not mentioned outside the game itself.

From this, one first conclusion can be made: The Forgotten arrived after the Margonite war. They may have been some of the soldiers of the Old Gods - it may even be that the reason they didn't bother fighting humans for control of Tyria was that they considered fighting the Margonites more important. However, they did not make the Crystal Desert their home until after it was a desert.

This leaves Glint, the Seer(s) and the Mursaat, each of which are a quandary. My personal inclination is that Glint at least considers herself a true servant of the Old Gods. Some of the things she has done may look dodgy, but consider that she is a prophet - it is a common thread for those with the power of prophecy to do things that seem to be bad in the short term but which stave off much worse happening in the long term. On the other hand... the question has to be asked: Which Old Gods? If Abaddon was once among the Five (than the Six), it is likely that he was still on good terms with the others when Glint was first created - and if so, it is possible that he (and the Five) may maintain a link to Glint and be influencing her prophecies. In which scenario, she isn't evil herself - but may be as much of a dupe herself as we were for much of Prophecies.

As mentioned above, the Seer(s) appear to be the closest related to the Margonites. There are a few explanations for this. It could be that the Seer(s) are Abaddon-worshipping Margonites and they're participants in Abaddon's plan to play Glint (and the rest of us) like fools. Or they (assuming there are, or were, more than one, even if the Seer we meet in the campaign is a single individual) could be Margonites that turned away from Abaddon, either not joining his forces in the first place are turning away from him, and are now seeking restitution. Finally, they could not actually be connected to the Margonites, except at the level that cats and dogs are related.

And then we have the Mursaat, of whom we know little for sure. There is circumstantial evidence, in the form of the Enchanted, that they have been in the lands known as the Crystal Desert in the past. They have been at war with the Seers - apparantly one they were winning or had just flat out won. And they have a strong vested interest in keeping the Titans locked up. And, importantly for those putting them on the side of good during the Margonite War, they seem to have contempt for the Five Gods, allowing the White Mantle to seek the overthrow of the worship of those gods.

From here, I see three interpretations, which basically depend on exactly what the nature of the Titans and the Sceptre of Orr are... (It is worth mentioning here that the Sceptre of Orr is apparently considered a sacred artifact... but given its powers, who's sacred artifact is it? Could it be a relic of the time when Abaddon was counted among the Fi...Six (see notes on Glint above), and thus be his artifact, despite being considered a sacred artifact by humanity?)

First, we have the scenario where the Mursaat are worried about the Titans for no other reason than that there is a prophecy that the Titans will destroy them if released. This doesn't preclude them being involved on either side, but it does leave open the scenario that they actually had nothing to do with the war.

Second, it could be that the Titans were contructs made by the Five Gods to fight against the Margonites. In this scenario, the Mursaat may actually be another group of converts of Abaddon, now seeking to keep the Titans locked up. This indicates that, if the Door of Kamalie had been opened by a true follower of the Five with the power to control them rather than the Lich and his stooges, they may have fought on the side of good - simply being incredibly powerful constructs that follow the orders of whoever has the right key. The Seer-Mursaat war could then be a war to destroy the last Margonite holdouts that hadn't converted to Abaddon. (An iteration of this could have a similar scenario that has the Titans and Mursaat both as creatures of Abaddon, but the Mursaat don't want the Titans out simply because being allies on paper doesn't mean the Titans recognise the Mursaat as allies...)

Finally, we have the conclusion people are leaning towards: That the Titans are creatures of Abaddon, and the Mursaat oppose them because they were at least originally on the side of good - they may even have achieved their present forms and powers as a reward from the Five Gods for fighting in that battle. This raises the question of the Mursaat's attitude towards the Five Gods and the Seers (if the latter are good), but this could have a simple explanation: Overzealousness. The Mursaat have seen what can happen in a war where gods are involved, so they want to get rid of all gods, not just Abaddon. And the Seers... well, connection or not, they just look far too much like the Margonites to be innocent, therefor they must all die.

Personally, the last is the interpretation I'm leaning towards - the Mursaat originally fought against the Margonites, but were afterwards corrupted by their own arrogance and belief that anything was justified in order to prevent another war on the scale of that that created the Crystal Desert.

Or the Titans are not aligned to any of the gods (the Five nor the Sixth), since Titans generally are opposed to gods throughout mythology.

Btw: Forgotten also have 4 arms, same as the Seers and the Margonites.



Furthermore, there seem to exist multiple Seers, and there is a difference between them and Ancient Seers.




Apparently the Seers were opposed to the Titans: "Unchecked, the Titans will rend Tyria asunder. Stopping the Lich is the only real way to defeat them. But there is more to this problem than you know.
Among the Titan horde are their champions, the Armageddon Lords. If they are not stopped, these demons will surely bring an end to both man and beast. Most likely, the Lords will be the last ones through the portals that have been opened." (Hells Precipe Quote)
But then again, should we trust their words?

From the strategy guide: (im actually quoting Wiki's Quote)
"Civilized nations recognise revere the Five True Gods. But heretics speak of a sixth god...a fallen god. A thousand years ago, the spiritual ancestors of these heretics, the Margonites, fought an epic battle on the northern plains of Elona. The resulting carnage created a vast wasteland - the realm now known as the Crystal Desert.
Empowered by the blessings of their dark deity, the Margonites waged wars against the followers of the Five Gods - smashing temples, desecrating shrines and butchering all rivals. Yet, despite the awesome power granted by horriffic transformation, their army was annihilated; their false god was exiled to a realm of torment."

Apparently the Margonites were transformed, so it is hard to say what they looked like before and, but it is assumed that they were ampibious-like, because they have remnants of fins and stuff.

Why Enchanted and Mursaat are (maybe) connected:




Look at the face, hands, and feet and spot the differences...
Funny that Mursaat have only casters and Enchanted are only melee characters.

In the back of the ice-imp cave. I used to say hi to him(her?) every day when IDS were still hot.
I HOPE the mursaat are good. I've always thought they're the coolest guys in all of Guild Wars.

ok my tiny little rant on my opinion:
Mursaat and Enchanted armors-
Mursaat fought the seer's race (the margonites). Its safe to assume they had infantry troops, as all armies do. They fight the Margonites and the desert is born. Its reasonably safe to figure the magic had to claim some of the mursaat and a large portion of their infantry. Now we dont know the color of the mursaat's blood but its feasible to say they can rot and decay when dead, leaving empty armor. The forgotten enter the new desert and wake the armor up for instant muscle.

Seer and Margonites-
The Margonites in the ancient times worshipped the 6 th god. This god tried to upset the balance that had been formed by ascending an entire race. Maybe the Mursaat acted on the gods behalf and assailed the Margonites mid-ritual. This scarred them horribly and drove them out of the desert. As this happend the other gods booted the 6th one out. The majority of the Margonites die of the after effect, the Seer has already vacated to the mountains and the remaining ones head for Elona. Time passes and the ritual scars become like a genetic birth defect and the ones in Elona begin to grow "different" while the lonely Seer doesnt change in any way.

Glint's Role-
This isnt a popular theory but i can honestly see Glint as realising the Mursaat as a threat to her power. Also who informed the gods as to the intention of the Margonites? I can see her being a puppet of the gods but also i see alot of self intrest in her actions. She tips the gods off about the Margonites, and she knows they'l send the mursaat. She hopes the battle will wipe them all out, and shes right half-way. Well when the Mursaat survive, she calls the Forgotten to her and possesses the fallen armors. The gods also at this point realise the Mursaat are way too tough so they give Glint the prophecy.

Gods minus the 6th-
They genereally are angling for balance, but they are playing every main NPC for tools. Glint thinks the gods ar giving her what she wants, the Mursaat think they are gods and hubris is one heck of a sin.

6th god-
He is trying the hostile take over routine, first with the margonites and ascending now with the margonites and Elona.

Sorry for the shortness of the last two, but the wills of gods are terrible things to assume.

Sorry, I forgot an important part of my reasoning for seperating the Forgotten and Seers/Margonites here...

They may all have four arms, but unlike the Seers and Margonites, the Forgotten don't have legs. They're still on a four-limbed body plan, just like humans, dwarves, Charr, tengu, Mursaat, and so on. I would surmise that if they evolved naturally rather than being created by the gods (the lore indicates they were introduced to Tyria by the gods, but from memory the wording allows the interpretation that they were brought from somewhere else rather than created) that they started with two arms and two legs (or even four legs as a lizard), and as they evolved into the serpentine mode of locomotion their legs became arms.

Of course, that does leave Glint, who does follow a six-limbed body plan (four legs and two wings that, from memory, are of the type that evolves from converted legs/arms rather than of the type that evolves independantly)

ARe you guys forgeting that the Seer states that its race is from another planet? :|

From what i've seen and read on GW. The Seers seem to have always been in that form. The Margonites were human but were tainted by Abbadon and transformed into their current appearance. So any resemblance between the Seers and Margonites is purely concidental.