The eBay culture and Botting.

I can understand real players who are farming for the slot machine addiction, or because they want to play the game legally and to abide by the rules. Yet you're talking of players who farm gold for cash, they'd be really stupid to farm manually when you can use multiple bots or get a real job because either option pays much more. Of course we still have the Chinese farming slave who's paid nothing to allow the rich ebayer to skip grinding.

True and that's exactly why I'm against bots, but not against farming manually. You can't pay a seller with ingame gold as this is exactly what you get when paying for the service.

The chinese farming slave...but we never talk about millions of people in China who still work in factories for almost nothing. I think the chinese farming slave is not that bad compared to this.

I got my fissure armor by farming 1500 candy canes during christmas, but I see your point. Although it is highly illegal to sell items on ebay, it is perfectly fine to purchase them. The parties at fault are the people and websites selling the items (sites like [CENSORED BY FROG], please don't go there) Ebay's disclaimer an other legal documents give them no responsibility for whatever gets bought or sold on their site.

That by itself isn't a real problem. However, the real problem is that Arenanet refuses to do anything to ban these accounts. How hard is it to look through the chat logs and find a pair of characters who have never met, one of which is giving 100K or more to the other for nothing in return? Not very. Even if arenanet wasn't the laziest MMO server company on Earth, they still wouldn't have the resources to shut down that many projects. eBay and illegal gold/item sites will always be a problem in GW, and in many MMO's for that matter. At least you can spot ebay rank easily.

Stand around in Ascalon, ID1 sometime. You'll see level 1 and 2s with random names, no guild tags, talking to level 20s with 15k armor... VERY sad when a person in FoW armor is seen talking to a level 2 with the name "Cb Zb"...

I think we need to get some proper perspective on this. There seems to be way too much importance put on the ‘Status’ associated with FoW armor. As someone who has been playing this game ( like many of you ) since the original Beta period. It took me until 1 week before the release of Factions before I could afford to put 4 not 5 pieces of FoW armor on my W/Mo. ( I wish the wiki had been updated. I would have liked the helmet. ) My main reason for this acquisition was because it existed. This was a goal to achieve. Not so I could walk into any town and have the crowd go ‘Oooh, the Iceman is here’. But just to see if I could do it. I have no problems when I see others wearing the same suit of armor as me. If they gained their prize by ‘Ebay’ then so be it. I know I didn’t. If you know that you earned your prize, then smile (^_^) . After all, this is just a great, fun, distraction from the daily grind of the office.

Sir Iceman

I personally don't give a crap if someone ebays money for this game, especially if all they are doing is buying armors. Their outrageously priced Fissure Armor has the SAME stats as everyone elses 1.5k armor. I don't see players with Fissure and think to myself "OMG that player is soooo godly". They are nothing special.

OP, you are upset that you "worked" hard to get your "legit" set of Fissure and its not "fair" that so many people didn't farm like hell to get theirs. Well, I guess that just life and get over it. Not trying to be too harsh but the fact is that every MMO that has items, weapons, armors, etc. that are considered "better" than normal, and lots and lots of people are going to cheat/ebay to get said items. There is no way around it. Anet does a pretty damn good job trying to avoid the "Leet Loot" trap that so many other games fall into. Look at Guild wars weapons. Besides something having "perfect" mods, the only difference is the look of the weapon. Same with the armor. This helps eliminate everyone clamoring for the same "leet" gear. Is a Crystalline Sword better than a flamberge with the same mods? NO. At least Guild Wars keeps a level playing field regarding items in the game.

So if people want to be completely stupid and pay real money for in-game stuff then I say let em. It does not affect me or how I play the game in the least.

Anyone could simply play GW for 12 months, saving 3k per day, and he/she will have the money for a FoW armor plus green weapon. So, every PvEer with more than 12 months playing, could have a FoW armor at this time.

I have FoW armor.. nice weapons etc and it disgusts me that when i got to Ascalon Int1 i see people simply buying money... sites posting there where to buy money... however the people that seem to buy moeny are eather rank9+ Ha players OR low lvl's and wammos with their Platemail chest and FoW legs and boots. When i am trading weapons etc i CHANGE to a 1.5k set of Droks armor just so i can sell my items, people semm to think having FoW either makes me an e-bayer OR a idiot who scams people and charges exremely high prices... and that because i have FoW that i will sell them really cheap or give to them for free. -_-

Yep yep same problem here. I got 2 FoW's but on both charaters also a "merchant suit" when im selling stuff. People think real farmers dont have big armors lol, whats the point behind farming then

I dont farm anymore havnt for about 6 months so im not even a "farmer" yet still gotta hide my fow when i wanna buy/sell something.

I have a question to anyone who doesn't have a problem with the "eBay culture": If Anet was to put 100k packages in their online store, would you be alright with that?

Essentially, if they do nothing to stop these people, and they just sort of -allow it-, that's about the same thing as selling it themselves. It cheapens the whole game if that were to happen, why wouldn't this? You say it doesn't affect you, and shouldn't affect others, but do you realize the impact of a culture like this becomming rampant just because it's accepted?

Honestly, as I said in my other post, it's not even our property to begin with. You're an idiot if you sell virtual things that aren't even yours, and you're even dumber if you buy these things with real money.

As Forrest Gump said: "That's all I have to say about that."

That's an interesting question arcanemacabre...So let's take a look at the current situation. The system is not flawless at the moment. For the one who buys gold it doesn't matter who sells it but if one can give the money to Anet, it can be used for developping purposes or whatever. So I prefer a system where the real cash gets in Anet's hands. Unless there is another way.

In essence it's not that much different than for instance the skill packs. It all comes down to one thing, increasing the gaming experience. Saving time, get additional skills or whatever.

Following your logic, it's stupid to buy a virtual game like this in the first place. As it's not yours. So why buy it? Because it's fun and you pay for a service. Why buy gold? Because it's fun to be rich and able to get rare skin items and fow armor for those interested in it. You pay for a service that's been offered.

Is it stupid people want to increase their gaming experience? I don't think so. As I said before it doesn't matter if it's game gold, skill packs, paper or a bag of air. I would even call it ignorant and naïve if you think so otherwise.

You can be against the principle of things, but one can't be ignorant to the real situation. You say it will cheapen the whole game which is not true as the game has been cheapened from the moment it went online just by having a not flawless system. In a perfect system we wouldn't even have this conversation.

On a side note...For me GW is the best game I ever bought, price quality thingy. I started playing since euro release and I feel I will be here for a long time. I have confidence in Anet. A lot of things in GW are not perfect but what is. When I bought my first fow armor with my own farmed gold, it crossed my mind it's not fair you can ebay it, but since then I widened my view on the matter. It's not just black and white, there is something called grey.

How does that follow my logic? When people buy in-game gold or items, they're not buying content or gameplay, they're buying essentially 'cheat codes' that allow them access to that content quicker. Besides that, you're paying for a 'service' that's not theirs to sell, despite it being offered. I do believe Anet actually has the right to sell their game, that they created.

"Increasing their gaming experience" is such a subjective term it's not even funny. What if someone's idea of increasing their gaming experience meant that they had full control of everyone's character in the game. They would be able to take any item of their choosing from eveyone's stash, and with one button, kill all players of an opposing team in PvP. Is that stupid?

Just because people want something doesn't mean it's just OK to give it to them. What 'increases the gaming experience' for some, hampers it for others. PvE is all about getting rewarded for playing. Not only do you get to have fun killing things, but you get stuff for it, too! That's the general idea. Straight up buying your rewards kinda defeats that purpose, don't you think?

You're so right on that last part, Gun. The fix shouldn't be band-aids and candy, though. The fix should be deep-rooted, a fix of the game mechanics itself. They need an auction house, they need major trade improvements, they need mod trader NPC's. These ideas are the things we as players should be defending, not people who skirt the whole process for an easy out.

Well yeah and so running and powerleveling services are in a way the same. I woudn't call it cheat codes though but short cuts. It's a faster way to get from point a to b. Anet indeed has the right to sell their game and that's why I prefer they get the cash if there is no other way.

Yes it's very subjective. But you have to look at the supply at hand. You can't buy a service that gives you the option to control everything, but you do can buy other services.

I agree. But using shortcuts for things already achieved in the game doesn't interfere with that point of view in my opinion. Also some people are limited in time to play this game. Such a person can have a job, be a father etc. He could loose his job, live of wellfare and stay at home all day playing gw. Or he can satisfy with collector's items and some greens or he can trade some of his earned money for playing time and gets 1000k game gold. The latter seems to be the grey zone that may suit him the best.

I never understood why Gold is included in the game. An economy based on money might be the only thing we can imagine in RL (or that works for that matter), but this does not have to be the case in fantasy.

Just throw in some items, which are always customized to the character and are linked to accomplishments in the game, and you'll have your way out. No short cuts to get them and people seeking rewards would be fine.
let's see what the Sunspear title track will have to offer. It did unlock the attribute points after all, maybe it can unlock vanity armor and skins later in the game. the only downside is, that you can grind your Sunspear rank pretty badly, but then again you can grind anything if you really want to, even red iris flowers.

well, if people choose to ebay their guild wars armor instead of wasting their life farming, thats their choice, their money, it has nothing to do with any of you.

Youre and idiot if you sell virtual things that aren't even yours, and youre even dumber if you buy these things with real money. --------- Well, think of it this way, why should someone spend 3 hours a day for months selling and farming, when they can work overtime for a few hours on a saturday, and get assured results instead of constantly staring at that snow casting prot spirit and heal breeze, you are blowing things out of proportion, im not with ebaying, not against it, but im sure as hell against farming.

Money is very much a part of very many games. Board games, single player computer games, single player console games, MMOs, even D&D. If everybody in the game automatically got everything they needed, there wouldn't be appeal to a lot of people. Having nice, shiny items is an accomplishment for some, and some enjoy working toward it and are happy with themselves when they get it.

Could a different system be set up to still obtain said nice, shiny items? Of course. Money, however, is the easiest to impliment and understand (for most) though, considering the real world is so very money driven.

Think of it this way: Why does anyone have to?

There are a lot of things in life I want. I want a million dollars. Sure, I could work really hard for it, and eventually earn it myself. Or I could just go and steal it.

Which is the right way to do it?

I may be blowing things out of proportion to an extent, but only to show my point. I've already laid out that it's against Anet's rules, and they can ban you for selling, or 'aiding and assisting' in the selling of in-game items and gold. Now I'm simply laying out my reasons for being personally against it. I have just as much reason to speak out against eBaying as you do against farming. Although, Anet actually has no problems with farming.

I've never bought 15k armor for any reason other than that I like the way it looks on my character. Since I'm going to be looking at my character the whole game, I want them to look cool. I don't have FoW armor, nor do I plan to save up for any, simply because I don't have any characters where I think the FoW looks better than some of the cheaper options.

I think all these people who regard expensive armor simply as 'an accomplishment,' and get it just to 'prove something' is kind of silly. Yeah, it can be neat when you have an armor that few others have (I had 15k kurzick assassin early on, I didn't see a lot of others like it), but I'm not such a petty child that I get upset when other people have it, too.

I don't follow the logic that making money by selling virtual property that isn't yours makes you an idiot. It would seem that it makes you a shrewd businessman. I also don't see how paying for either convenience or for something you will enjoy makes you "dumb." Everyone is just a big, dumb friggin' moron, huh?

So basically, the entire first part of your post agrees with my point of view, while the second disputes it? Not following you, here. It is 'silly' to regard something that simply looks nice as an accomplishment and something to prove. That's my point. Hit it on the head.

The point of expensive anything in the game is simple - gold sink. Once you play PvE long enough, you simply have way more gold than the simple, cheap max items can absorb. There needs to be end-game content to waste money on, thus gold sinks. If it's something you personally really want, and choose to save up for, then it can be a personal goal, for those that need any personal goal besides skill.

Attempting to sell anything that isn't yours is just simply illegal. As I said in my example in an earlier post, it's like trying to sell a sand trap in someone else's golf course. Sure you paid for a membership, it doesn't mean you own it. That is stupid, in my eyes. If you want to call it shrewd, fine, I can call cows chickens. It's all a matter of opinion. Disputing opinions based solely on how you perceive things is stupid, though.

The first part of my post is basically saying, "why should anyone care what armor anyone else is wearing, and why should anyone care how they got it?"

I don't follow your logic that if something is illegal (and I'm not sure this is technically against the law) it is therefore stupid. How is being able to get away with making money from selling a sand trap in someone else's course is stupid? Even if my assessment as "shrewd" is subjective (although I think it's the definition of the word), you haven't illustrated how your assessment as "stupid" applies at all, and your "cow/chicken" analogy really doesn't apply either. I can back up my opinion with reasoning, so don't be so quick to dismiss it. Please back up your own opinion with some kind of reasoning before you chastise me for dismissing it.

Personally, i saved my pre-searing armor for when I want to sell things. It does seem that most people with FoW are considered "eBayers".

Honestly, I DO look at FoW armor as an accomplishment, beanerman. Do you look at your Rank as an accomplishment? I killed things for money, you killed people for fame. Same thing, IMO. Sure, one takes more skill, but the other takes longer to do.

It is "silly" and stupid to purchase pixels... especially when the person selling them didn't own the pixels in the first place... but i've broadened my horizons in the past week, and I say "If you want to eBay armor, go ahead... it's wrong, it's immoral, but whatever.."

In an argument about this sort of sensitive topic, it's probably smart to start with a disclaimer: I'm not explicitly for or against eBay - I just don't care about it either way, because I don't believe it affects me.

However, I don't agree with some of the arguments being posted here.

First of all, the argument about selling property that doesn't belong to you is inaccurate. In any kind of online game, whether it's D2, WoW, GW, EQ, what the eBayer is selling isn't the actual item itself, but the time and effort it took the seller to acquire that item. In other words, the selling of GW gold isn't selling an item, it's selling a service - a farming service, specifically. Although it's against the EULA in the specific case of GW (and, I suspect, in many other games), the sale of a service generally isn't in itself illegal.

Second, some of you are making essentially baseless moral judgments of eBaying. You say it's wrong, but can't come up with any reason for it except that it's not what you're 'supposed' to do, or it's not the 'right' way, whatever that means. Some of the examples brought up, such as working for a million dollars as opposed to stealing it, are ludicrous. eBaying GW gold is not anything like stealing - you are not taking your gold from unwilling parties, you are paying someone for a service they are offering. There is no victim, because all parties involved consent to (and in fact, mutually benefit) from the transaction. People tend to leave victimless crime alone, and it's difficult to pin any kind of universal moral offense on it.

I don't have to resort to moral judgments - if someone asks me why they shouldn't eBay, I just point them to the EULA.

Third, time = money. eBaying gold is just a way of manipulating that equation. Some people spend the time to farm the gold. Others won't spend the time, and would rather spend real money instead. In the end, it amounts to the same thing. While some of you would say that it's stupid to spend real money on ingame gold, those people would say that it's stupid to spend the time to farm it. You're saying, why waste money? And they'll say, why waste time? It's the same argument on either side, and the key point isn't how you're getting the gold, but the fact that you think it's worth spending *anything* (either time or money) to get it in the first place. Take a moment for that fact to sink in, because it's important, really.

To be entirely honest, if Anet can't stop the eBaying, I'd prefer if they sold the gold themselves. That removes the market for Chinese bot farmers, and the money goes to Anet, who can then turn around and use it for game features and whatnot. It would be an additional way to support the company. Unfortunately, with all of the stigma attached to eBaying, and their own strict stance on the matter, this simply isn't a viable option for them.

Again, I don't care either way about eBay, because I don't believe it affects my own personal enjoyment of the game. The reason why people shouldn't do it is because it's against the EULA, not because of any illusory moral objections.

As cruel as this ebaying money-machine may seem, it is unfortunately, a user-end driven system.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10022148

Too bad this isn't a sticky...

I would say that 1/4 of all the GW players Ebay their gold.

Ebay.. Solution to all your problems!

I have to agree, far too easy for peoples to buy anything on ebay whether its that rare 15%^50 crystalline sword on ebay or those materials needed for Fow armor. I have a question. Couldn't A-Net make an agreement with Ebay to lock down those selling threads?

I know it might be against first (i don't know which) amendment rights but if they want to stop users from going to ebay, they should probably stop it from the source.

Yeah youd think that ANet would be able to track down the Ebay Sellers' accounts right?

Unfortunately though, the Privacy Policy for ebay sellers protects them from anet getting any information about them.

Cant ANet just like have little alarms that go off if a player suddenly recieves a million gold and 250 ectos from someone for free (in game)?

I would say that every time you see a Guild Recruiting Spam like "omg we have every single merchant at our Guild Hall" which costs what like 500k for all merchants?- that unless its an old guild with dozens and dozens of members- its probably just one kid and his Ebay Gold.


In all honesty- Some punk noob who Ebays his whole character.... Skill buddy. Its all about skill. Youre gonna look so Hawt in your FoW Dirtnap Armor when I drop the hammer.

Why would Ebay go along with that?