Heroes > Me (a.k.a I want to be a Hero...)

During the WPE, I spent quite some time playing with the new hero system and I realized that I had much more fun building and playing with heroes, than playing with my own character. New classes and weapons are good and all, but my hero had access to everything I have unlocked on *all* my other characters (and in PvP). The flexibility and the raw power of heroes cannot be compared to what you have on your own pve character.

I tried a lot of configurations and builds and despite my character's 30 additional skill points, my extra level(s), and my equipment boost (runes, caps), my heroes were basically doing everything for me for two reasons: access to the best skills and combos, and constant adaptability.

So the question is: is that really a good thing?

On the one hand, I understand it's fun to play with super flexible heroes and original builds. The heroes' flexibility is especially nice in a casual PvP environment. On the other hand, the players' pve characters are crap in comparison. Seriously, at low levels you're stuck with no elite, junk skills and only one fixed secondary, and at higher levels you have to re-buy all your unlocked skills and to re-capture the same elites (from other campaigns), and to grind endlessly for skill points.

I think the current hero system is unbalanced, and somewhat frustrating. During the WPE, a couple of very simple MM builds cleared everything for me, and after release, I know I'll focus more on my heroes than on my own character. It also means that I'll rarely play in PuGs with more than 2/3 human players because veterans will look for other veterans with heroes on steroids (recycled ubber equipment, unlocked skills), instead of playing with the average newcomer.

I really, really like the flexibility of the heroes. They basically highlight the best features of the core of this game: skill selection, builds, combos, synergies... Thus it would be a big mistake to briddle them, or to alter the current hero system.

We just need more adaptability on our own PvE characters. One must understand that our characters cannot be as flexible as heroes (ANet has to keep gold sinks, skill point grinding and all), but the Nightfall PvE gameplay would benefit from a *little* more flexibility on the players' own characters.

Otherwise quite a lot of veteran players will never leave home without three super-twinked heroes with optimized builds. If the newcomer who's playing his first character cannot customize his own character (for instance with a couple of key PvP unlocks) he might struggle to find veterans to play with.

Many options could be considered but two features would be very very sexy:

- unlimited change of your secondary profession (no quest, no profession changer after 4 missions, no low-level limit, no petty 500g fee...)

- ability to buy unlocked elites from skill trainers (just like regular skills)


Basically anybody can unlock an elite with minimal effort (either with former characters or in casual PvP). Then it can be twinked on any hero, and it makes the game more fun for veterans looking for diverse options. Yet it would be better to see the same elite on a *human*, playing with other *humans*.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree, the heroes' superior adaptability in the early game is silly.

I'm really surprised that they use your account unlocks rather than the one character's unlocks. I'd rather see the heroes slowed down a bit, rather than let a brand new player character just get everything right out of the gates.

I like that you don't have to grind endlessly to optimize a character, but I like a little bit of growth and progress.

I like both of the OP's suggestions.

Good ideas. Another might be to be able to buy skills that you have unlocked with Faction (for PvP characters) for half the price from skill trainers.

When I was playing during the WPE, my ranger was doing a fair bit of the damage, and i had a HH monk, evi/for great justice spike warrior and a backup ranger pumping out the spirits and attack skills. I didn't feel useless at all. I think its perfectly balanced as it is. And as for the newcomers, if the game gives their heroes a few more skills than normal, starts them off with a capable build of 8 skills, and points the newcomer in the direction of hero skill selection, they're set. It doesn't mean they won't get into vet groups (who needs vets anyway?), its essentially the same problem as there's always been (I don't think theres even a problem there).

I've posted my concerns about the preview heroes on a few other threads already but no one paid attention.

Using both monk heroes, the ranger hero, and assorted henchies, I cleared the bog just by placing flags and sitting back sipping my drink while they fought. Heroes having access to literally all Prophecies and Factions skills was a bit much. Perhaps their skill access will turn out to work differently upon release.

If they used character unlocks they would be limited to your primary and secondary class skills.
My suggestion is to put quest somewhere in the middle of the story which will unlock ability to use elites by heroes (one quest for all heroes). Another quest can be used to give them +15 AP etc.

I don't see much of a change here, compared to Prophecies or Factions. The "NO N00BZ PLZ" veterans have always turned down newcomers. They don't want to play with them because supposedly they don't have enough experience and enough powerful level, skills, weapons, armor, runes, etc. Heroes is just one more item in that list.

They did say that during the PVE, heroes couldn't use signet of capture. I suspect once they can then elites may not be available to them so early.

Wait, so after months of complaining that henchies were cannon fodder and that no high level missions could be completed with them, now suddenly they're OVER powered?

Now that's what I call ironic.

i think it's great and i feel validated for making sure that i have every skill unlocked. you can pretty much pick any mission (except aurora glade and vizunah square...well and the last factions mission vs shiro) and finish it with the hench doing all the work. i've even heard that people nail that last factions mission with hench (but they do some of the work) oh, and thirsty river (though i know someone who's beaten it with hench, he participated too).

they're intended for people to be able to play through all the missions with only 1 other person so it gives you options. seeing as how most pvp-only folks that buy the cheat-packs won't be spending much time in the missions, it doesn't give anyone any kind of "unfair advantage" or whatnot.

the only thing that bothers me is thinking about all the minor runes i'm going to have to jugle for these guys.

there's eonugh of a money sink for armor and skills every 6 months now, i don't want to have to farm aggressively to be able to keep up tyvm. those of us who have all the skills unlocked generally have like...gotten all the skills and don't need to be spending more money.

if it's that important to you, go read the aesop fable about the grasshopper and the ant (and start saving food, winter's coming)

if all else fails, go spend a half hour in ab and make eonugh faction to unlock 2 or 3 skills or go get it on your primary. all that would do is increase your options on your other characters.

I liked it the way it was during the preview event. I liked to toy and play around with different builds and I loved the access to all skill I've already unlocked. I don't want to unlock and grind again for basic skills for my heroes simply because I've done it already with many of my own characters.

Agreed x10. I was prepared to be thoroughly disappointed with Heroes, but the fact that I could give them any skill I had unlocked made playing with them an excellent experience. At least some of this should rub off on our PvE characters.

Well... My WB dervish was hitting 2 or 3 monsters for 100+ criticals every 5s so, so *of course* I wasn't useless. The problem is that heroes had access to higher caliber stuff than me.

Let's take the most overpowered example: when you have 12 x minions (level 12) maintained by 2 BiPers (buffing one another), the rest of the group (lvl12 to 14) is full of energy, and every mob (lvl 12 -15) is basically killed in seconds. The main problem here is not the heroes' intrinsic power (it's noob island, after all), it's the fact, my own character wasn't able to replace one of them.

I played with many other builds (such as conditions spreaders + ViM + toxicity) and the results were basically the same : it was very easy to tweak heroes in order to make them work together as a team, and *I* was struggling to fit in this group.

That would be a bad idea. At low levels, your heroes would be limited to your own professions (totally redundant), and at higher levels you'd have grind for *even more* skill points and to recapture even more elites for your troops.

As far as I am concerned, steamrolling low level areas is normal for someone who has played with many professions, many skills for many months. You can do it with henchmen (which are already more powerful than the average player), it's just more fun if you can customize your heroes. The real problem is that I had more fun building a team of 3 heroes than in playing my own character, and that I was struggling with a ridiculously small pool of skill points I had to grind.

You can do the same with standard henchmen as soon as you have a group of 8. For the records, you can complete pretty much all missions and quests with an empty skill bar or an echo mender. Making them weaker won't make the game more enjoyable, especially for those who have countless of hours behind them.

May be it would improve the RPG feel for some players. However at higher levels your own character will still be stuck with skill points, elite capture and you will have to re-do everything you've already done with other characters (missions, captures, runs...). Meanwhile your heroes will be better and more flexible than you.

That would be over the top. The price of skill points was designed on purpose to make pve players grind and farm for their progression. I don't like it but it's a key element of the economy. Moreover your suggestion doesn't solve the problem of skill points and boring elite (re)captures.

Basically, it's more a problems of options given than a problem of acquisition speed. Players will still *have to* farm because it's a part of the MMO game balance. What I'd like to see is a reduction of the unnecessarily boring parts and a few options for my characters to blend in my heroes' group.

The difference is that newcomers could be the 7th and 8th player of a PuG, and they needed only accessible skills to be accepted. With heroes, newcomers will have a harder time because 2 veterans can form a full and optimized group, and because they don't have super rare elites from the Mineral Springs to put on their heroes to do the same.

That wouldn't solve the problem at all. You don't actually need elites to make them work as a group, and you can change your configuration whenever you want (whereas you can't do the same with your character). And in the endgame you'll still be limited by your own skill points whereas your heroes won't. They'll remain stronger and more flexible than you.

It's not because of heroes, it's because MM is extremely efficient in pve. Usually MMs aren't available in every single mission/quest, especially in PuGs. With heroes you can have every efficient build on demand. Every time you need you can have MM/boonprot/spirit spammer/whatever in your party. It's not heroes fault.

Again, I unfortunately haven't played during the preview event, so I only know what I heard about heroes. Sorry if what I'm suggesting is already implanted, or it has already been suggested.

I believed before I read Devourer's post you had to buy/unlock skills and equip for your heroes. Learning that you can use any unlocked skill/item is good news for me. Just imagine if you had to buy new weapons, to cap all the skills you need for all the heroes of all your chars. That's something I would do for the heroes of my main char - I'm sure I wouldn't for the 9 others.

You're suggesting to make elite skills buyable from trainers, just as any normal skill you have unlocked. But it wouldn't change anything for newcomers, as they wouldn't have unlocked those skills. Now if it's about buying elite skills from trainers even if you don't have unlocked them, I'd say the PvE part of GW is already easy enough. ANET tried to give PvEers new things to do, with titles for example, to try to satisfy PvEers bored when all they had to do was tombs or SF (or UW and FoW for those lucky enough 1/ to be european, 2/ to be either a ranger or a necro or a monk). Supressing one PvE activity (skill capping) would be a bad idea IMO (and i'm even not mentioning all the Skill Hunters who would whine about that).

On the other hand, even if you give access to all the elites of the game to new comers, he wouldn't still become an experienced player - he still could not be able to make a good build either (I remember this guy who posted his build in the ranger forum: he was using barrage and 2 or 3 preparations... He had an elite - he also had one of the worst build I've seen).

Now indeed if heroes can use any skill from the beginning, there is a problem. But instead of giving access to any skills to players as well, why not restricting the skills you heroe can use? You could restrict their elites to what a fresh character can have capped at the specific part of the story you are.

The same goes for weapons: if heroes (tell me if it's right again, I havent tested NF) can equip all the weaps you have unlocked (ie: max damage weapons) you could restrict them to the weapons you can buy in the most advanced town you have visited.

Speaking as a NO NOOBS PLZ people, I want hero skill availability to stay exactly as it was in the preview. I hate the concept of endgame elites and see no reason why I should take my hero all the way to Cantha and churn out an arbitrary 10k faction all over again so my rit hero (assuming there's one) can be a spirit lord. I did that grind once and have no desire to revisit PvE Cantha. That's assuming I can even take heroes out of Elona.

No, the "heroes" are fine as they are. I don't want to get messed up by human stupidity and just explore with "players" I know what they're capable of. It doesn't take away anything nor is it broken or exploiting, nor does it make me obselete.

I just believe you shouldn't interpret too much into your own virtual existence and seek a meaning behind everything you do. There is not much psychological or phylosophical depth behind GW. Take it easy.

No, the "heroes" are fine as they are. I don't want to get messed up by human stupidity and just explore with "players" I know what they're capable of. It doesn't take away anything nor is it broken or exploiting, nor does it make me obselete.

I just believe you shouldn't interpret too much into your own virtual existence and seek a meaning behind everything you do. There is not much psychological or phylosophical depth behind GW. Take it easy.

options are good.

i like the option to give them all the skills i have unlocked with my account because, well, i unlocked them, with several different characters, it took me time and effort, and now as i have unlocked those skills, the effort is now going to give fruits.

its an option to give the heroes all the skills you want.
you can give him the skills or you can decide to not give them the skills.

YOU gave him the skills, he didnt choose them, you are still the "main heroe" but not the damage dealer leader.

i used to complain about henchmen firepower, that they lack it, at raisu palace me and a guildie (monk and rit respectively) took the henchies and tried, twice that night, we didnt get through that mission that night, next day i try it with the same henchmen configuration with my warrior, and finished that mission easily.

now instead of just being the iron horse, now you are the master pupeteer (sp?) pulling the strings. and personally, i like being the mastermind behind the group.