When does something "end?"

Blazing finale says "whenever a Chant or Shout ends on target ally"... guild wars is inconsistant with this wording. When a shout is renewed, watch yourself for instance, is blazing finale triggered?

Lets look at the evidence!

Mysticism says "Whenever an Enchantment ends." We know that mysticism does not trigger when an enchantment is renewed.

Battle Rage says "When Battle Rage ends, you lose all adrenaline." We know that it does in fact trigger if you renew battle rage.



Which is it gonna be!

Battle Rage is a "non-attack skill", the other trigger for it. When you re-apply Battle Rage, you're using a non-attack skill, so it ends/triggers and re-applies at the same time.

Its double nerfed and nerfs itself in the process. Thats why it sucks balls.

EDIT: that's why it should be changed to "whenever you use a non-adrenal skill" instead of "non-attack". Doesn't matter; its not an IAS so its not really worth bringing anyway.

I'm not sure this is the thread to discuss it in, though BF and Nightfall skills are part of your question.

So if you cast another enchantment that's already on you as a Dervish, you don't get the "ending" bonuses listed on those enchantment skill descriptions themselves nor the Mysticism bonus?

If so,

Wow, that really sucks and in hindsight it made me screw up my Dervish gameplay a lot during the PVP preview.

Worst of all I didn't even know that until reading this thread because reasonably when I re-cast something it means that the original casting of that spell had ended.

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention, TadaceAce. That's some very misleading wording by "ending" not applying if you re-cast something.

This should definitely be posted in that thread Gaile Gray made about suggestions to fix botched text that doesn't describe things properly.

No doubt until it is fixed most players will likewise be unknowingly misled by the cagey use of the word "ends".

I'm not sure why you think "end" and "start again" are synonymous.

Well when something starts again, did the previous instance end or does it just fall off? I'm sure somebody tested this during the preview, enlighten us! And minus good call on the battle rage, I never even noticed that part. In light of the new evidence I think its not going to trigger finale skills when you renew shouts.

I was quite surprised when i find out that renewing an enchant didn't trigger the old one.
I know enchants and spirit aren't alike, but when i was casting a spirit such as "Life", i was getting the healing bonus etheir he was replaced by a new one or died by himself.

And as enchants such as "vital boon" are aslo affected by this, it got nothing to do with being an attack skill or not...

True... Recurring Insecurity has an effect on Soul Barbs if you look at it, actually

Bugged? Or a wrong explanation?

Use Ether prodigy.

Now, use it again. You take damage, because it ended the first one.

Very confusing.

Ether Prodigy causes you to "Lose all Enchantments", thats why: it ends your first EP when you cast it, then you become enchanted with your new copy. In contrast, most Dervish enchantments dont cause you to lose all enchantments, thus when you become enchanted with the more recent copy, you havent lost the old copy and its duration is simply reset.

Soul Barbs triggers when an hex goes ON not OFF, no?
[Edit corrected "enchantment" to "hex" in the line above, but you all knew what I meant, right? :P]

be curious to know if Mystiscim triggers when you renew Ether Prodigy

During the pvp event, (I didn't play paragon in the pve one) it would renew everytime something wore of. I just had a lot of shouts and kepts spamming them. Then when it wore off, I would cast it again, and I was able to keep it up. I don't know if they changed it since then though.

Well it triggers off of CoP, so I dont see why not. EP is linked to energy storage though, and unlike CoP (in its old incarnation at least) doesnt have a particularly useful effect at 0 attribute, so I'm not sure how useful that would be.

That's definitely not how it should be and leaving it like that will cause Dervish to be the most difficult class to play because of this stumblingblock. You have to have your eyes glued to the top of the screen constantly to be looking at 6 - 8 enchantments on you and not accidentally hitting any of the 6 - 8 enchantment skill keys on your bar for one that is still on you, and all this during the heat of battle. How are you supposed to keep your eyes glued there like a hawk and pay attention to what is going on during the actual battle? Giving the Dervish class that kind of extra burden is not the least bit fair in my view.

The only thing that actually applies the "end" triggers when you renew it without other intervening triggers (Like with Battle Rage and Ether Prodigy) are spirits. For some reason summoning a new copy of an already existing spirit causes Soul Reaping to trigger off of the "end" of the old spirit.

That's because it kills the old one. Summoning a new one makes a new one, and it checks to see if there's an allied one within range--if there is, it kills it. Hence triggering the ending effects.

Personally, I disagree with you - the way it is now means that you have to manage your enchantment stack and actively manage your enchantments with other Dervish skilsl, enchantment-ending skills that Dervishes have in abundance. It encourages you to play thoughtfully rather than casting all your enchantments whenever they are available.
In the end, who is to say what should and shouldn't be except the devs? For now, this IS how it is, whether or not this remains the case is for time and ANet to tell. At the very least, the present system is consistant and to me, that counts for something.

You guys are digressing here. The question was, will renewing a shout / chant (like using watch yourself again before it runs off) trigger paragon finale skills? At least address the question and then give your evidence.

There's no inconsistency. Renewing does not trigger ending effects.

No. Renewing/re-applying will not. If a skill only triggers when something "ends" then the chant/shout must be triggered or naturally expire for it to end.

EX: thats why most P/Ws want as little in tactics as possible, so that "Watch Yourself!" ends quickly. Re-apply all the time--its cheap. But most improtant for echos, you want the shout to end as quickly--or regularly--as possible.

It's not inconsistent; this is how all "end" buffs work. It just doesn't work the way you thought it did.

The only exceptions are the few "self-removal" skills listed here.

Yes, and furthermore "Watch Yourself!" and other adrenaline shouts are important components of a Paragon primary's energy management. Just like Mantra of Recall, you ideally want "WY!" to end just before it is recharged.