ArenaNet: Henchmen and Elementalists

Zonzai

Zonzai

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

E/

I don't know if other spell casting classes (mostly mesmer) have this problem since I don't regularly play one. But I would assume so.

The current henchmen AI is such that unless I play my elementalist like a front line tank and prepare myself to take most of the aggro from a group of mobs I must be prepared to have a very high DP.

Here's the problem as I see it. When starting a fight, the henchmen run away if I do. I run away from enemies frequently at the beginning of a fight before the enemy mobs have gotten to me to begin combat. I am a poorly armored elementalist and shouldn't be tanking.

But the henchmen warriors, rangers or what have you seem to forget that I am the one with the weak armor and they themsleves begin to run away. So, instead of two warriors, a ranger, a couple monks and whatever else I decide to throw in, I have eight cowards running from three mobs.

Now, I have to turn back around and engage the enemies myself at point blank range where if I don't always die I always come very close.

This weekend I have been attempting to cap skills. It has not been much fun. Why? Not because the mobs are too difficult. Not because the skills are too hard to find. Not because I don't like the game. But because I can't get the henchmen to fight.

Please, find an AI balance that considers us more traditional spellcasters a little. Because more and more this game is becoming a less and less a game for us.

Total Rogue

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

California

Team Love [kiSu]

W/

When Nightfall comes out we'll be able to send the henchmen in in front of us.

hopefully that will "fix" this problem.

Dauntless

Dauntless

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

Ctrl+Shift+Space calls a target. The henchman will attack the called target, causing them to take first agro.

Zonzai

Zonzai

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

E/

Really? I hadn't heard that before. That may indeed "fix" the problem. Will we be able to do that with all henchmen though or just heros?

carbajac

carbajac

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Medicine Cabinet [PILL]

E/

There are things you can do before getting all worked up about this. I play an elementalist often and I see your problem. Playing with henchmen as an ele is tough because they don't normally attack unless you do, but there are things you can do. Use a longbow, it doesn't matter if you don't meet the weapon requirements, you can attack most mobs before being in aggro range. Fire the bow and they'll rush in. Or try shift + spacebar on an enemy, you won't attack first if you're not in range, it doesn't work all the time. Try shift+ctrl+spacebar or attack when you're just out of aggro range and then run away, the hench will often run in first (kind of tricking the hench code into thinking that you plan on attacking), that sometimes works better. It's what's been successful for all my caster characters.

Sujoy

Sujoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

In Livia's Cleavage (.)ME(.)

The Early Monk Heals The Worm [EMHW]

Mo/

its not only the elementalist, same with every prof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauntless
Ctrl+Shift+Space

Hakuin

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

Equal Opprotunity Employers

Mo/W

just ctrl+ space works, but yea. call target and then the warrior hench will take aggro while spellcasters stay back to roughly where you are. that what i do, for my sin, ranger, and monk.

Paperfly

Paperfly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Wow, this has to be the first time I've seen someone complain that henchmen run away too easily. Particularly with the latest AI update that has them refusing to disengage from a fight they're overmatched in for love or money... [/has been fighting near Ether Seals in the Ring of Fire all morning]

...But there's a very simple fix to your problem: Bring a longbow. Even with zero spec into Marksmanship, a longbow is every henchman user's best friend: Use it to pull, then swap to your regular wand-and-offhand combo for the fight. That way even if you have to run back a couple of times in mid fight your warrior henchmen (and probably the healers ) will always be in front of you.

Aerian_Skybane

Aerian_Skybane

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

House of Caeruleous [HoC]

R/E

For all my Henchie groups with a ranged/caster character I use control+shift+space as has been said. It does not push you in the aggro zone and does not make you attack, just calls a target that the henchies will rush to their dea... your aid for. Its quite usefull . Stand just outsie of aggro radius of said target, hit those, and then join in the battle when the front lines engage.

cosyfiep

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

henchmen are under the law of murphy.....if you want them to continue to attack and you run away (or even just move your position so you can get a line of sight) they run away.....if you really want them to run away (cause alesia is dead, claude is dead, ....and the only ones left are you, tom and stefan)....they will continue to fight to the death ----theirs as well as yours!

I have tried to counter this with my ele by using my attunement after I call a target, usually that sends them running in....and allows me to stay a bit back (and glyths sometimes work as well for this).

My mesmer doesnt have this problem because she is a me/r and usually is using a bow anyways.

strcpy

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

I usually find the opposite to be true - spell casters are the easy hench profession.

Calling targets is you friend, they will run ahead of you to get to a called target - in fact they will run ahead of your aggro buble by quite a bit.

The problem is that the squishy henchman like to stay around you - the monk in particular. As a ranged character they stay out of melee for the most part (at the least they will not run into melee - they do not adjust of the melee comes to them), if you play a warrior everyone happily runs straight into the fight and promptly dies. You can not leave them behind while you gather aggro.

As for nightfalls hench/hero control if it stays like it did in the preview each of the heroes (up to three) are have individual way points you can set. The only way point that affects all of them is the "all" waypoint - the normal henchies will pay attention to that but there is no individual control. It made allowed you to have your tanks grab all the aggro before - either leave the henches behind while you go forward or send only the tank heroes forward.

some guy

some guy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE

We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]

This problem should be solved in NF, cus you can tell your henchies where to go, and change their combat style from aggressive to defence or vice versa.

cataphract

cataphract

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Ashford Abbey

Hey Mallyx [icU]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperfly
Wow, this has to be the first time I've seen someone complain that henchmen run away too easily. Particularly with the latest AI update that has them refusing to disengage from a fight they're overmatched in for love or money... [/has been fighting near Ether Seals in the Ring of Fire all morning]
The new AI didn't do them much good. They still break aggro and retreat when I reposition myself even if the target is at 5% health. It's pretty annoying. What's more, they still go into "alamo" mode from time to time. Happend to me yesterday while capping Equinox in the Sunjiang explorable. After third alamo mode I made myself a cup of coffee and got two friends to help me out.

As for the controls in NF... I seriously hope they put in separate controls for melee and ranged/caster henchies and heroes. Flagging a position makes all of them run in. Separate flag for melee henchies would be great. I mean what genereal sends his archers into the fray along with his footmen?

Etrik

Etrik

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Romania

None atm

Mo/

Ctrl+Shit+Space when you're outside the aggro range of mobs. Henchies will go in first.

Batou of Nine

Batou of Nine

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

California, USA

Angel Sharks [AS] (RiP [KaiZ] T__T")

Mo/E

Funny how something so simple as the Shift + Control + Space command is overlooked. This command calls the target just like Control + Space, however, rather then calling the target and running into attacking range/aggro, you instead stand still, well out of aggro range, while your henchies charge in to attk ahead of you.

Sadly, just like most things, hardly ANYONE actually looks throught the manual when they first get something. I always do, but then again, i may just be weird. Over a year ago when i got Prophecies i was SO excited about the game, as it installed, i speed-read through the manual and learned SO much, included most of the useful commands such as this.

Since day one, using this command has made my PvE henchy experience SO pleasant and fun, it just makes me chuckle everytime people complain about the henchmen. I have never had an issue. And now henchies we can micro manage; heroes?!? Suweet!

Cmon people! Read the manual first!
Lol CHeers!

prism2525

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

i always use ctrl + space. thanks for reminding me of the suppress action button. finally i found a use for it

Effendi Westland

Effendi Westland

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Isle of the dead

[DVDF][LDS]

P/W

I remember my first ctrl+shift+space with a hench team in Cantha. Talon went up to tank as usual.... but the monks refused to heal him because he was outside their aggro bubble.... splat....

prism2525

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

well, effendi, you must only stay back so that the tanks get aggro. then you can go in. The only problem is that now caster henchmen think they're tanks too.

Darkveil

Darkveil

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

LoG

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by prism2525
well, effendi, you must only stay back so that the tanks get aggro. then you can go in. The only problem is that now caster henchmen think they're tanks too.
I hope the people of Anet is aware of this terrible behaviour of the henchmen AI. Even if you play a caster, all non-monk casters/rangers run up to the enemy, pause for a second and then start attack/cast spells.... :X

prism2525

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

wrong. mhenlo, jamei, danika and alesia (healer henchies) just love tanking nowadays...

healing touch..

KANE OG

KANE OG

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2005

Ogmios Graybeards

W/

The Henchies at this very moment are the worst I've ever seen them. Aiden, Cynn, Dunham, etc are ALL tanks now. Ever since the NFPE, they've all decided the best way to fight is to throw a skill, run ahead, throw a skill, run closer, aggro further, etc.

This is total bs. I've henchied basically every mission in both campaigns, and have advocated their use repeatedly on this and other forums. Not anymore. They suck now, and need to be fixed asap.

Pro-Monk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Just one of the MANY problems that seem to be cropping up as the Nightfall rollout approaches. Does Anet really want to sacrifice both of the previous Chapters just to introduce new things in Nightfall (tabbed builds, heros, etc.) As of now, it certainly seem to be the case.

This dummy down of the AI needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. For those of use that HATE pugs and don't have enough guildies available to fill a party, this is a SERIOUS issue in PvE play.

Effendi Westland

Effendi Westland

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Isle of the dead

[DVDF][LDS]

P/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by prism2525
The only problem is that now caster henchmen think they're tanks too.
Which made Gyala's master very difficult last night. I was with a group of friend, we had Gita as tank aparently. The -60 dp on her made the last fight with the afflicted very tricky (must admit more of us were hit with a high dp).

Really glad we made it, at one point seeing the last man standing (a ritualist) was rebirthing all the others while the 3 last afflicted were pounding on him, such a close call.

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

The best solution.... just don't take melee range henchman. That way there is no front line for them to advance to. Works like a charm in the Luxon side using all 3 Ranger hench, 2 Eles and 2 Monks. Managed to walk through the Second Wind boss and the Grasping was Kurrong boss like they were nothing with the sheer number of interrupts and long range attacks going off. Makes over agroing alot easier to control, haven't henched (or indeed played properly... f*cking err7s) since the NFPE so i dunno how screwed up things are.

Omega X

Omega X

Ninja Unveiler

Join Date: Jun 2005

Louisiana, USA

Boston Guild[BG]

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro-Monk
Just one of the MANY problems that seem to be cropping up as the Nightfall rollout approaches. Does Anet really want to sacrifice both of the previous Chapters just to introduce new things in Nightfall (tabbed builds, heros, etc.) As of now, it certainly seem to be the case.

This dummy down of the AI needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. For those of use that HATE pugs and don't have enough guildies available to fill a party, this is a SERIOUS issue in PvE play.
Oh crap the world am doommed1!1.

You should know better that Anet will fix this.

AS it stands, working to get Nightfall completed is worth more than a couple of weeks of inconvenience. And tabbed builds has nothing to do with the AI.

I use henchies a lot too, all it takes is readjusting your play style until the fix rolls out.

Myria

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega X
AS it stands, working to get Nightfall completed is worth more than a couple of weeks of inconvenience.
Next up, "Oh, stop your whining, if you want decent henchies then buy Nightfall!"

God knows, it's completely unreasonable to expect the roll-out of a new product not to utterly FUBAR two previous products, what sort of person would expect such a silly thing?

Omega X

Omega X

Ninja Unveiler

Join Date: Jun 2005

Louisiana, USA

Boston Guild[BG]

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myria
Next up, "Oh, stop your whining, if you want decent henchies then buy Nightfall!"

God knows, it's completely unreasonable to expect the roll-out of a new product not to utterly FUBAR two previous products, what sort of person would expect such a silly thing?
One that whines about bugs that are still being fixed.