10/02/06 State of the Game article - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

02 Oct 2006 at 20:09 - 1

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...e/necrogvg.php

Overall a very nice summary of why Necromancers don't see GvG play as often as other classes, but this paragraph made me pause:

Quote:

The much-hated Touch Ranger build continues to frustrate players in the Random Arenas. A brief respite was granted during the preview event weekend, where players had access to the aptly named Paragon skill "Can't Touch This!" Touch Rangers utilize Expertise to decrease the energy cost of Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Bite, Plague Touch, and similar skills, providing a steady stream of damage as well as strong self-healing abilities. Furthermore, typical attack-shutdown such as Blind, evasion, blocking, does not affect Touchers, even though they lose out when snared.

What is a paragraph on Rangers doing in an article on Necromancers, especially an article that focuses on primary Necromancers above all else?

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

02 Oct 2006 at 20:27 - 2

Quote:

posted by Shyft the Pyro
What is a paragraph on Rangers doing in an article on Necromancers, especially an article that focuses on primary Necromancers above all else?

My aren’t we a bit touchy today?

Gee think a bit ... Touch Rangers are another form of Necromancy all primary class names aside.

Alleji

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

02 Oct 2006 at 20:51 - 3

I think necros are fine as they are and the only reason they aren't popular in GvG is Soul Reaping. They are simply not a good fit in GvG, which is balanced IMO by how great necros are in other forms of PvP.

Of course, there are no statistics of this kind, but in HA necro, warrior and ranger are the three most popular classes. VIM runs 4 warriors and 4 rangers, which is the main argument for the popularity of the above, whereas necros are in a large number of builds, all because of soul reaping: Blood spike, OG spike, orders on IWAY and rspike (granted, there are approximately 3 rspike teams running around these days, but I still feel they deserve a mention :P), taint/warders and SR healers on NR/tranq builds (although these seem to have died out recently).

The article doesn't seem to hold much hope for necros in GvG and neither do I. Soul reaping may be the most powerful attribute in this game, but GvG isn't the place for it.

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

02 Oct 2006 at 21:00 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

My aren’t we a bit touchy today?

Pun intended?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Gee think a bit ... Touch Rangers are another form of Necromancy all primary class names aside.

But the whole point of the article is that Necromancers don't see enough play in high-end PvP. Shoehorning the Touch Ranger reference in sounds like advertisement for "Can't Touch This!" to me rather than a mention of a viable way Necromancers are used. The whole point of Touch Ranger builds is to (ab)use Expertise, an attribute Necromancers have no access to!

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

02 Oct 2006 at 21:34 - 5

The article at least to me was more on the uses of the Necromancer skills used in PvP GvG and PvE. The class, apart from Soul Reaping, is the sum of the skills used with that class.

Thus even fast-casting Mesmers avoid most necromancer skills because the skills don’t add up in comparison to other class counterpart skills. At least that was what the article appeared to be for me.

Mysterial

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Servants of Fortuna

E/Me

02 Oct 2006 at 22:45 - 6

The article brings up a good point; while I and many others almost constantly complain about bad Elementalist damage and how bad Energy Storage is, they're still in a better state for GvG than Necromancers since at least Elementalists have Ether Prodigy, whereas Necromancers don't have much of anything to make up for their bad (in GvG) primary attribute.

CalypsoX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

Xen of Onslaught

N/Me

02 Oct 2006 at 23:00 - 7

I agree that soul reaping is a big drawback of necros in gvg, but I'd also argue with this point.

Quote:

Necromancers can shut down classes that attack with weapons, using such skills as Faintheartedness, Reckless Haste, or Price of Failure, but a Mesmer will do a better job with Ineptitude and other Illusion Magic.

In my opinion, both classes are competent at providing warrior hate, though I feel necros are a little better. The difference being that the mesmer warrior hate relies on snares and direct damage for the most part (eg. imagined burden, clumsiness), while necros generally apply some debilitating effect that lasts for some duration (reckless, price of failure, spiteful, Shadow of Fear). With some nice cover hexes such as parasitic and suffering thrown in, these hexes can shut down melee and ranged physical attackers for a good while.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

02 Oct 2006 at 23:07 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Article

Two elite skills that may also become popular if the metagame takes a turn in that direction are Corrupt Enchantment and Depravity. Corrupt Enchantment is a quick-casting Enchantment removal that doubles as a strong cover Hex. Depravity is an Energy-sapping skill that would do a number on any caster if covered with enough Hexes to hinder its removal.

One, Corrupt Enchantment is not a Cover Hex. It's a WTFPWN hex. The Curses tree already has a cover Hex in the name of Parasitic Bond. (And Corrupt Enchantment is going to get nerfed hard, you all know it.)

Second, the article implies that Depravity affects the Hexed target, which is wrong.

I'm pretty annoyed he didn't mention Reaper's Mark. THAT is the ultimate cover-hex, and a reason to use Soul Reaping.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

02 Oct 2006 at 23:08 - 9

Yes even more for those that use enchments it seems Necros will be viable agian not as if they weren't in pvp.

disarm76

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Portugal

03 Oct 2006 at 02:03 - 10

It is 'State-of-the-game' or 'State-of-PvP'?
Because all I see is PvP and GvG talking.

I demand a 'State-of-PvE'!

Kakumei

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Grind is subjective

learn this please

03 Oct 2006 at 02:09 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by disarm76

It is 'State-of-the-game' or 'State-of-PvP'?
Because all I see is PvP and GvG talking.

I demand a 'State-of-PvE'!

It's called The Scribe.

disarm76

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Portugal

03 Oct 2006 at 02:20 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

It's called The Scribe.

Yeah, that describes the state of PvE...Random acts of kindness?

Former Ruling

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cedartown, Georgia

R/

03 Oct 2006 at 02:26 - 13

TOuch Rangers were mentioned towards the end, because its perfect in that context. It was a part of the article about Necromancer use in other forms of PvP, and Touch Rangers happen to be one of the biggest uses of necromancy in non-GvG/HA pvp.

Quote:

Yeah, that describes the state of PvE...Random acts of kindness?

It also describes any events going on, and major updates to the game.

What else is there? Theres not exactly The builds and ladder and all of that PvP stuff, would they say "Oh yea, this week some Whammo was using Watchful Spirit instead of Mending, NEW METAGAME!!@##@"

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

03 Oct 2006 at 02:27 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by disarm76

Yeah, that describes the state of PvE...Random acts of kindness?

Let's be fair now. The Scribe has offered some... *ahem* ...insight on PvE, even if not in the gameplay part. Like the mentions of new greens before they were implemented (subsequently undermined by lack of follow-up information until everyone already knew how to obtain them). And the news of special weekend events (already announced on the main site). And the metagame in Alliance Battles (which technically qualifies as PvP). I guess I'm starting to see your point

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

TOuch Rangers were mentioned towards the end, because its perfect in that context. It was a part of the article about Necromancer use in other forms of PvP, and Touch Rangers happen to be one of the biggest uses of necromancy in non-GvG/HA pvp.

But they are Touch Rangers, and "necromancy" does not equate to "Necromancers." Touch Rangers take Necromancer skills and use them in a _______ way (new/exciting/glitched/cheap) that explicitly alters the skills' original design (as many have argued, at least). No Necromancer will ever be able to spam touch skills with the same speed as a Touch Ranger unless things are dying in 1 hit and the Necromancer is recovering as much energy with Soul Reaping per use of touch skill as the Ranger is saving with Expertise. Granted, I've seen some try, mainly in Random Arenas, but I'm sure we can all imagine how well that goes.

My point is that the whole article makes a big fuss about the lack of Necromancer primaries in PvP. To insert a comment about a Necromancer secondary build is very jarring. For me, it immediately raises questions of an alterior motive for the mention - like the "Can't Touch This!" Paragon skill which is sure to make people buy Nightfall just to counter the annoying Touch Rangers.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

03 Oct 2006 at 03:55 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by disarm76

I demand a 'State-of-PvE'!

What's there to say? The only time/places when/where running any random 8 skills won't get you killed is (for the most part) solofarming, and anet doesn't exactly condone that.

The article is missing the words "Oppressive Gaze" IMO.

Makkert

Black Beast of Aarrrrgghh

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

The Biggyverse [PLEB] // Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

03 Oct 2006 at 04:19 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The article brings up a good point; while I and many others almost constantly complain about bad Elementalist damage and how bad Energy Storage is, they're still in a better state for GvG than Necromancers since at least Elementalists have Ether Prodigy, whereas Necromancers don't have much of anything to make up for their bad (in GvG) primary attribute.

Soul Reaping, as Bloodspiking showed (and was pedicted many months before bloodspiking showed it's ugly head by some), is a bit of a niche attribute. It requires some management, and it's not easy to manage. Looking at Nightfall skills, with Jagged Bones - Putrid Flesh and Signet of Lost Soul, there is an attempt to be able to manage it more.
How effective it is to manage with those skills remains to be seen.

Former Ruling

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cedartown, Georgia

R/

03 Oct 2006 at 04:31 - 17

Quote:

My point is that the whole article makes a big fuss about the lack of Necromancer primaries in PvP. To insert a comment about a Necromancer secondary build is very jarring. For me, it immediately raises questions of an alterior motive for the mention - like the "Can't Touch This!" Paragon skill which is sure to make people buy Nightfall just to counter the annoying Touch Rangers.

The point of the "whole article" is to discuss the uses of Necromancers and their skills in PvP, only part of it is about their effective use as Primaries in GvG.

I said (and still stick to my statement) that the paragraph was perfectly in context where it appeared in the article, discussing necromancer skills and their use in non-GvG/HA forms of PvP.

Bankai

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bubblegum Dragons

Mo/E

03 Oct 2006 at 05:55 - 18

I agree, they do not see a lot of play in gvg. That's mainly because they can't:
A) Harrass monks
B) Have high dps (don't come to me talking about shadow strike etc. I know they're damaging.)
C) Good E-Management
D) Dead bodies.

And in Nightfall, some of those are going to change. One build that has already been run (look at the NUKE vid) is a Jagged bones necro. Because they add pressure with bleeding, they're great, especially at VoD. Bad e-management will be solved by Signet of lost souls, which will either get a buff or a nerf when nightfall is released. Depravity also has the ability to screw monks over, so I think we'll see more necros after Nightfall.

bigwig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2005

Nova Scotia

#Dismantle

03 Oct 2006 at 08:45 - 19

let it go. If you don't like that he happened to mention a popular build that happens to use mostly necromancy skills, simply because the primary is a ranger, don't read any more state of the game articles.

he never implied that he would solely talk about primary necromancers.

What a ridiculous thread.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

03 Oct 2006 at 14:08 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by disarm76

It is 'State-of-the-game' or 'State-of-PvP'?
Because all I see is PvP and GvG talking.

I demand a 'State-of-PvE'!

People farmed alot. Many mobs continue to die. Xp totals rise.

There's no metagame to talk about in PvE...

Kali Magdalene

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Washington

N/

03 Oct 2006 at 17:54 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

The article at least to me was more on the uses of the Necromancer skills used in PvP GvG and PvE. The class, apart from Soul Reaping, is the sum of the skills used with that class.

There's also the litany of "Necromancers enjoyed a brief time in GvG with this build, but it was nerfed." Without getting into whether the skills were overpowered as they were, it seems like necros get balanced out of GvG over and over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

People farmed alot. Many mobs continue to die. Xp totals rise.

There's no metagame to talk about in PvE...

He totally talked about the PVE metagame

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Sunstrom

Necromancers are one of the most popular PvE classes in Guild Wars, and a minion master is a given part of any serious PvE group.

I don't think anything more needs to be said.

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

03 Oct 2006 at 18:00 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by disarm76

It is 'State-of-the-game' or 'State-of-PvP'?
Because all I see is PvP and GvG talking.

I demand a 'State-of-PvE'!

PvE has no meta-game...

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

03 Oct 2006 at 19:13 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

PvE has no meta-game...

Really?

I remember a time before the AoE nerf when Necromancers got about as many party invites as Mesmers. Until Elementalist AoE spells started scattering enemies, few people even heard of a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer, much less a Minion Master one. The "metagame" was to have a tank and as many echo nukers as party size allowed. The Scribe is a perfect place to illuminate underused but effective PvE builds which linger on the fringes of the "PvE metagame." Instead, we've had "interesting" rather than "effective" builds, like the "chaser" Warrior with Ride the Lightning.

Granted, come Nightfall, we might never see other players again due to our Heroes and the PvE metagame will turn into "how to setup your Hero ftw."

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

let it go. If you don't like that he happened to mention a popular build that happens to use mostly necromancy skills, simply because the primary is a ranger, don't read any more state of the game articles.

I started the thread with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Overall a very nice summary of why Necromancers don't see GvG play as often as other classes, but this paragraph made me pause

I think the article is very good, except for the single paragraph. It feels out of place to me, and I wanted to start a discussion on it. Clearly, you feel it is as valid a part of the article as any other. We may disagree, but that is no basis for personal attacks or insults.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

he never implied that he would solely talk about primary necromancers.

Are we reading the same article? From the very top:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Sunstrom

Necromancers are one of the most popular PvE classes in Guild Wars, and a minion master is a given part of any serious PvE group. Yet, up until this point, Necromancer builds have been the least common in top level GvG play by a longshot. So why is it that the Necromancer has been the least popular class in PvP to this point? In this article I'll explain my theory, and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the class.

If that's not an essay on primary Necromancers, I don't know what is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

What a ridiculous thread.

And yet you're contributing.

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

03 Oct 2006 at 19:33 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Really?

I remember a time before the AoE nerf when Necromancers got about as many party invites as Mesmers. Until Elementalist AoE spells started scattering enemies, few people even heard of a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer, much less a Minion Master one. The "metagame" was to have a tank and as many echo nukers as party size allowed. The Scribe is a perfect place to illuminate underused but effective PvE builds which linger on the fringes of the "PvE metagame." Instead, we've had "interesting" rather than "effective" builds, like the "chaser" Warrior with Ride the Lightning.

Granted, come Nightfall, we might never see other players again due to our Heroes and the PvE metagame will turn into "how to setup your Hero ftw."

That's nice - I remember it as well - but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The pvp metagame is an ever evolving change in how teams setup their offenses and defenses, and how they interact to get kills. Pve does not have this, since the monster AI is unchanging and boringly predictable. You can literaly bring any 8 skills into a pve mission or quest and still complete it with ease. Yes, pve has changed since release, but what hasn't? Yes, people figure out new farming techniques, but that hardly qualifies as a metagame.

Spader

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2006

W/Mo

03 Oct 2006 at 19:51 - 25

i'm not to sure about signet of lost souls.

by my guess
guildwiki has it listed as works on target less then %50 hp you steal 10-82 hp and 1-7 energy great for a finisher if a spike goes wrong. But how many guilds will go feast then SoS spike, wait desicrate, SoS

its going to be fuunn in the first weeks of nightfall.

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

03 Oct 2006 at 20:06 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spader

i'm not to sure about signet of lost souls.

by my guess
guildwiki has it listed as works on target less then %50 hp you steal 10-82 hp and 1-7 energy great for a finisher if a spike goes wrong. But how many guilds will go feast then SoS spike, wait desicrate, SoS

its going to be fuunn in the first weeks of nightfall.

The skill doesn't seem to be life stealing; it says "you gain," not steal, x amount of health and energy." It's not useful as a spike follow up... and who does FoC spike anymore anyway?

Shyft the Pyro

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

NYC, USA

E/Mo

03 Oct 2006 at 20:08 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

That's nice - I remember it as well - but it has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The pvp metagame is an ever evolving change in how teams setup their offenses and defenses, and how they interact to get kills. Pve does not have this, since the monster AI is unchanging and boringly predictable. You can literaly bring any 8 skills into a pve mission or quest and still complete it with ease. Yes, pve has changed since release, but what hasn't? Yes, people figure out new farming techniques, but that hardly qualifies as a metagame.

My point is that the "PvE metagame" does exist and does change - sometimes more, sometimes less - when the game itself changes. Considering two new classes are about to change the game yet again, it would be interesting to see how a Paragon or Dervish build could work with a party rather than solo farm something. Even in PvP, unless you're talking about 1v1 battles, each character is designed to hold up a particular end of the team. I really don't understand how "advertising" a viable if "generic" team build for either Paragon or Dervish in The Scribe could be detrimental, or even worse than the content we see now.

Kali Magdalene

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Washington

N/

03 Oct 2006 at 22:43 - 28

There is most certainly a PVE metagame, which is why mesmers and assassins get neglected, people look for MM, SS, Spirit Lords, team builds for FoW/UW/ToPK/Urgoz' Warren/The Deep. When people complain about cookie cutter builds, they're really complaining about the PVE metagame.

I'd also dispute the idea that you can just put any eight skills on your bar and farm or PVE successfully. While there may be greater tolerance and flexibility for builds in PVE than in PVP, this does not mean that mediocre builds will thrive or even accomplish anything useful. Of course, that statement is just the normal "PVE is mindless" noise from PVP players, and should really be disregarded.