Need help against A/Me

Icyguava

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2006

W/Mo

Hi,

I'm W/Mo and am very new to PvP. Last weekend I came across a A/Me. For once, I felt wasted. I couldn't even get close before touching my opponent.

Greatly appreciate if someone could help to advise how to counter as a W.

Many thanks for your attention.

Thom Bangalter

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

MO

E/Mo

Auspicious parry used to be amazing vs an assassin. Still could be pretty decent, haven't tested it recently. Any sort of block/evasion stance would work wonders, though I don't suggest running them in PVP. (the best counter in PVP would be a monk with guardian).

Eldritch Icefist

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2006

The Fallen Angels Clan {CLAN}

W/Mo

SWORD WAR ONLY:

IAS
attack skill
attack skill
attack skill/heal sig/endure pain
deadly reposite
reposite
glads defence {E}/Auspicious parry {E}/defy pain{E}
rez sig

anti-assassin build. btw, tested that one like this:

zerker stance
sever artery
gash
silverwing/galrath
deadly reposite
reposite
glads defence
rez sig

should work well

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Shield Bash.

GG.

But just some advice, don't base your build around countering a specific build or profession. Unless you're a Mesmer.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
Shield Bash.

GG.

But just some advice, don't base your build around countering a specific build or profession. Unless you're a Mesmer. Even if you're a Mesmer you wouldn't want to focus too much on a single profession.

Rera

Rera

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Don't worry about 1v1, unless you're participating in that Underground fighting tournament thing posted in Riverside.

Guild Wars isn't about how one character builds does against another character build. Bringing an anti-melee build with stacked ripostes and gladiator's defense might chew up a noob warrior, but any non-braindead warrior is just going to ignore you and kill someone else. Casters aren't going to care about you at all, because you're going to be pretty ineffective against them. I love it whenever I see enemy warriors using Gladiator's Defense and ripostes, because no matter what class I'm playing I know I can safely ignore them.

Here's a tip: One of the best ways to kill anyone, regardless of profession, is to use knockdowns. A character that can't move, attack, or activate (most) skills is just an HP bar to chew through. About the only thing they can save themselves with in those cases is an evasion stance, and most casters (your prime targets) won't have any.

Franco

Franco

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2006

England

VoB

Me/

lol this post couldnt come from something rather then a W/MO...


Use riposte +deadly riposte gg assassin.

Pick Me

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Thornill, ON, Canada

THE CANUCK MONKS (TCM)

W/R

Everyone seems to assume you have a sword. Hmmm...

If you have a hammer, try this:

Counter Blow
Belly Smash
Crushing Blow
Irresistable Blow
Flury
Balthazar's Spirit
Protective Spirit/Guardian
Rebirth

Basically hope your healer will heal you and you can take down the assassin or any other class.

The main thing is, blind the assassin. Assassins continue to complain about being blinded and becoming useless. Other than Signet of Malice or a healer that removes conditions, you'll be safe from the Assassin/Mesmer.

Never tried the build I just typed up, so it may or may not be viable.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Even if you're a Mesmer you wouldn't want to focus too much on a single profession. True, however, you can, but the end result is that you can be a jack of all trades, really. Most of the Mesmer skills are extremely versatile so it doens't matter if you're geared towards Monk-killing with Surge and Burn because you can use that on anyone.

Rera

Rera

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Hammer works well because of knockdowns, as per my earlier tip. A well-played shock warrior can kill most assassins also, unless they catch you with no adrenalin.

Mesmers don't do well as jacks of all trades. Surge and burn will do damage to anyone that has energy, but the reason they're so devastating to monks in particular is because you deal damage while destroying their ability to heal that damage. A warrior isn't going to care about your surge. He'll eat your 100~200 damage, and then he'll run up to you and rage your face.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
Hammer works well because of knockdowns, as per my earlier tip. A well-played shock warrior can kill most assassins also, unless they catch you with no adrenalin.

Mesmers don't do well as jacks of all trades. Surge and burn will do damage to anyone that has energy, but the reason they're so devastating to monks in particular is because you deal damage while destroying their ability to heal that damage. A warrior isn't going to care about your surge. He'll eat your 100~200 damage, and then he'll run up to you and rage your face. EVERYONE needs Energy. Using a Surge/Burn example, a Hammer/Axe Warrior without energy will be unable to spike (no Shock, no Crushing Blow), Rangers need energy for Cripshot and the like, etc. Diversion, a frequent skill on a Mesmer's bar, is quite decent for everything, from getting rid of Shocks, to Wards, to annoying Blinding Flashes, etc. Blackout doubles as a shutdown to support players and an adrenaline emptyer.

However, building a Mesmer as a jack of all trades, to counter each specific profession, is usually a bad idea. For example, taking an anti-ranger skill (perhaps Spirit Shackles), an anti-Warrior skill (maybe Soothing Images, Spirit of Failure), then a bunch of anti-caster skills (Diversion, Backfire *cough*), will probably cause much more micromanagement than necessary compared to a timely Blackout here and there.

some guy

some guy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE

We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]

Your best bet against assassins is an enchantment strip, most skilled assassins carry some sort of anti blocking spell, I carry ways of the fox all the time.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

W/Mo...bane signet! Also, sins will kd you, so either use balanced stance or dolyak signet, it's what I hate the most.

Rera

Rera

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
EVERYONE needs Energy. Using a Surge/Burn example, a Hammer/Axe Warrior without energy will be unable to spike (no Shock, no Crushing Blow), Rangers need energy for Cripshot and the like, etc. Diversion, a frequent skill on a Mesmer's bar, is quite decent for everything, from getting rid of Shocks, to Wards, to annoying Blinding Flashes, etc. Blackout doubles as a shutdown to support players and an adrenaline emptyer. Warriors need very little energy. Burn+Surge at 16 attribute only burns 16e, so the warrior will have more than enough left to Shock+Frenzy if they're a shock warrior, or Frenzy+Crushing if they're a hammer war.

Diversion, as you said, is good against anyone.

Blackout is a 1s cast. If a warrior sees a mesmer running at him (or worse, if he's running at you and already has you targetted), what do you think he's going to do? You better hope you Diversion'd his distracting blow ... except then he can also just Shock you.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
Warriors need very little energy. Burn+Surge at 16 attribute only burns 16e, so the warrior will have more than enough left to Shock+Frenzy if they're a shock warrior, or Frenzy+Crushing if they're a hammer war.

Diversion, as you said, is good against anyone.

Blackout is a 1s cast. If a warrior sees a mesmer running at him (or worse, if he's running at you and already has you targetted), what do you think he's going to do? You better hope you Diversion'd his distracting blow ... except then he can also just Shock you. Shock+Frenzy is 15 energy, and a Warrior has about 30 energy altogether. And even then, a good Warrior will be using Bull's Strike a lot of the time, and Frenzy to build adrenaline, and that's not counting the instances that he's already used Shock and is suffering from Exhaustion.

As for Blackout, if he Shocks you, okay fine. You've given him 10 Exhaustion, and you can happily activate Distortion, skip away and Black him out 12 seconds later. I don't actually see many Warriors in high-level PvP use Distracting Blow either, but okay, assuming that they do, you'll be very unlucky that you do get hit by it (since traditionally Warriors will be pressuring your Monks). A Mesmer with good observation skills can spot when the enemy are preparing to spike, and interceed with a timely Blackout (much like a Flashbot can).

Rera

Rera

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

Shock+Frenzy is only 10 actually. Say you start at 25e. You use Frenzy, you're at 20e, and Shock, which puts you at 15e. The exhaution puts your max energy at 25-10 = 15e.

The difference between a flashbot and a blackout is that blinding flash happens at range, whereas blackout is a touch skill. The degree to which each is telegraphed is vastly different, because there's usually no other reason for a Mesmer or Cripshot (the other main blackout user) to run into melee range of anyone. I'm not saying it's unusable - it's definitely a good skill with careful usage, but you can't rely on it.

I'll concede that an esurge mesmer is at least moderately effective against everyone, but I'm not sure that's saying much. My original argument is that it's non-optimal. Esurge builds are generally designed to destroy monks and casters, and they're extremely good at doing it. Turning the same guns on a warrior may or may not be effective depending on the situation, and definitely isn't going to work as well as someone that brought dedicated warrior hate.

A fair comparison I think is the cripshot ranger, the standard 'jack-of-all-trades'. A good cripshot is an impediment to everyone - she spreads conditions, snares warriors and kiting targets, interrupts casters, blacks-out warriors trying to spike and monks trying to heal spikes.

Shadowfox1125

Shadowfox1125

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

PST

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
Shock+Frenzy is 15 energy, and a Warrior has about 30 energy altogether. And even then, a good Warrior will be using Bull's Strike a lot of the time, and Frenzy to build adrenaline, and that's not counting the instances that he's already used Shock and is suffering from Exhaustion. Shock + Frenzy is 10 energy; 5e each. And I have never met a good warrior with 30 energy before. The most you can get with a FULL Glads set is 28 energy, and I emphasized good earlier because no decent warrior uses a +5e weapon to attack.

ogami_ito

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

KD builds will destroy sins too, as others have said. The warrior just has more defence and a better heal, so basically the way to stop a sin is to out-heal it and shot down the attacks every now and then.

As others have said, do not focus on one character type. But if you really want to easilly kill a sin, ripost, deadly riposte, and healing sig will beat a sin down completely. bonetti's defence too. Now, if you want to do damage to others, this could work:

Evicerate
Executioners
Attack skill
IAS (Frenzy)
Running skill (sprint)
Bonneti's Def
Heal Sig
Res Sig.

Basically activate bonnetis and use heal sig and you will outlast the sin in a (useless) 1v1 fight. Change the attack skill to hamstring and you can kite the sin.

Note that the sin really should not be targeting you unless maybe he is defending his team's softy. So if he is targeting you, its sort of a good thing. The only real downer is that if the sin attacks you before your adren skills are charged, they can be more dangerous.

Icyguava

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2006

W/Mo

Thank you all for your time and interests.

However, I'm quite disappointed with ALL suggestions here as either you have not unerstand my problem or you have not played with a Sin with Mes as secondary.

My opponent, with a Mes as secondary, easily slows down my W and hex me till death. All I could do is busy healing myself. Anyway, what is the use of a W if he can't get close enough to touch his opponent.

Very surprise to see that everyone is discussing what skills to kill a Sin rather than how to kill THE Sin.

Anyway, I've figured the only way to counter my opponent, I require to switch my secondary to Sin. Mainly because of the shadow step to get close him. Other secondary is meaningless, consider the low energy I have to cast other spells.

Hope we all learn something from this thread.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowfox1125
Shock + Frenzy is 10 energy; 5e each. And I have never met a good warrior with 30 energy before. The most you can get with a FULL Glads set is 28 energy, and I emphasized good earlier because no decent warrior uses a +5e weapon to attack. Shock and Frenzy is 15: Shock is 10 from Exhaustion (going from max energy, of course). Though this might not be the case sometimes, but okay, we'll say it's 10 energy. The problem with using Frenzy first is that you're usually in a speed boost and against kiting opponents hitting Frenzy first might throw off the spike completely with that extra two seconds of chasing. I said AROUND 30 energy, though I probably should have said it's closer to 25. Most people do use a full glad's set, with stoneskin gauntlets.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
Shock+Frenzy is only 10 actually. Say you start at 25e. You use Frenzy, you're at 20e, and Shock, which puts you at 15e. The exhaution puts your max energy at 25-10 = 15e.

The difference between a flashbot and a blackout is that blinding flash happens at range, whereas blackout is a touch skill. The degree to which each is telegraphed is vastly different, because there's usually no other reason for a Mesmer or Cripshot (the other main blackout user) to run into melee range of anyone. I'm not saying it's unusable - it's definitely a good skill with careful usage, but you can't rely on it.

I'll concede that an esurge mesmer is at least moderately effective against everyone, but I'm not sure that's saying much. My original argument is that it's non-optimal. Esurge builds are generally designed to destroy monks and casters, and they're extremely good at doing it. Turning the same guns on a warrior may or may not be effective depending on the situation, and definitely isn't going to work as well as someone that brought dedicated warrior hate.

A fair comparison I think is the cripshot ranger, the standard 'jack-of-all-trades'. A good cripshot is an impediment to everyone - she spreads conditions, snares warriors and kiting targets, interrupts casters, blacks-out warriors trying to spike and monks trying to heal spikes. Typically, a spike will occur on a caster. Mesmers are either backline or mid-line, pretty close to where most of your casters are at. In any case, yes, I'll conceed that a Surge build is *non-optimal,* but a jack of all trades is pretty non-optimal in the first place. I'll agree that a Cripshot probably does more in terms of random damage/pressure, but the two professions have different styles of playing and do vastly different things.

ogami_ito

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyguava
However, I'm quite disappointed with ALL suggestions here as either you have not unerstand my problem or you have not played with a Sin with Mes as secondary.
I have played a A/Me. The primary purpose of that is not using Me hexes but rather using Illusionary Weapons, or Mesmer defences, or both.

Quote: Originally Posted by Icyguava My opponent, with a Mes as secondary, easily slows down my W and hex me till death. All I could do is busy healing myself. Anyway, what is the use of a W if he can't get close enough to touch his opponent. From this we can assume that your opponent is just shadowstepping in/out of SPELL range and using hexes on you? And is a primary sin? First of all, a primary SPELL/HEX casting sin is stupid. You are getting beat by a bad build. Second, we really can't help you because you have not told us what skills he is useing and what hexes.

Without knowing the specifics of his skills / what type of PvP...Sins have a decent Warrior shut-down hex and mesmers have several warrior shut-down hexes. If these hexes are too much of a problem, pick a /Me secondary and take shatter hex and/or hex breaker. Now you are immune to his main forms of attack. Maybe go as a sword W/Me, and bring "Charge!" (which is an elite boosting shout which benefits your whole team), hamstring (to stop him from kiting you) , and hexbreaker (stance).


Quote: Originally Posted by Icyguava
Very surprise to see that everyone is discussing what skills to kill a Sin rather than how to kill THE Sin. You were not clear. And everyone made a valid assumption that you were trying to kill sins in general. This is because a) as said before, generally you don't make a build or playstyle around killing any one class, let alone a very specific class combo. and b) you didn't describe the playstyle of the A/Me, so we didn't know, and c) you didn't say what type of PvP setting. Asking how to kill a specific character seems besides the point of PvP as PvP is a group game where it is almost never 1 v1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyguava
Anyway, I've figured the only way to counter my opponent, I require to switch my secondary to Sin. Mainly because of the shadow step to get close him. Other secondary is meaningless, consider the low energy I have to cast other spells. Really, if this sin is giving you so much of a problem, then any caster who kites is probably owneing you. Sins have only 1 good shadowstep skill and that is an elite enchantment...any enchant removal will send him back out before he finnishes his run. Crippling skills + running speed boost skills > shadowstep. The purpose of shadowstepping is NOT kitting...it is for surprise attacks. YOu going W/A will not help you much. W/Me, W/Mo, W/N will help you though.

Rera

Rera

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

@Icyguava: If our responses weren't tailor-made for your problem, you have only yourself to blame. After all, you didn't tell us exactly what the problem was. When I hear A/Me, I think of an assassin using mostly assassin skills, not a Mesmer in assassin's skin. Just throwing out a, "I'M GETTING PWNED, HELP ME!" doesn't tell us anything.

@Dragannia: Frenzy+Shock costs 10 all the time. You should never be in a speed boost prior to activating Frenzy, because you need that speed boost to cancel Frenzy. If you need to speed boost and chase your target around, your spike isn't going to work anyway, because the entire enemy team already knows who your target is.

My point was that you probably shouldn't play a jack-of-all-trades because they are non-optimal, and that a mesmer is better served specializing in caster hate, warrior hate, etc. I bring up the Cripshot not because I think it's similar to a Mesmer (as we both agree that they are not all that similar), but because a Cripshot is a good example of a maximally effective 'jack-of-all-trades'.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
@Dragannia: Frenzy+Shock costs 10 all the time. You should never be in a speed boost prior to activating Frenzy, because you need that speed boost to cancel Frenzy. If you need to speed boost and chase your target around, your spike isn't going to work anyway, because the entire enemy team already knows who your target is. Not really. Take Rush, for instance. You could easily be in it, and have it waiting for you to cancel Frenzy with. And Rush a is very popular skill, especially for Hammer Warriors.
You only need a slight speed boost to land that first Shock/KD and instead of a few extra seconds you might have to chase someone for. For example, calling a "Three, two, one, SPIKE" then finding out that your other Warrior-spiking pal hasn't reached the target at the same time as you and delivered a KD is frustrating.

Anyway, Mesmers, in my opinion, at least a Domination Mesmer for GvG, is never specialised for Melee/Caster hate. Take the generic build: Surge, Burn, Blackout, Drain Enchantment, Shatter Enchantment, Distortion, Diversion, Hard Res. We'll say the first two are 'caster hate.' For Blackout, by your reasoning because it's 'touch range,' it serves far better against Warriors because they'll probably be closer to you, but in reality it can be used as both. Shatter Enchantment is both spike and an enchantment removal, but generally it's more useful in a spike. A Mesmer, I would say, can't be restricted to 'caster hate' or 'warrior hate' because they need to be able to do a lot of things.

Rera

Rera

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

When I play shock axe, this is my skill progression:

Frenzy -> Shock -> Evisc -> Exec -> Sprint

There is no way to have your cancel stance ready for you again after the spike, even using Rush. Rush costs 4a, so if I use it prior to spiking, I will not have gained enough adrenalin after using the axe combo to activate it.

If your warriors need to speed boost to reach the target in "3, 2, 1", the caller isn't doing his job properly.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

The stance lasts for around 15 seconds. During that 15 seconds, you would have easily gained enough adrenaline to use it again.

IllusiveMind

IllusiveMind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mehtani Keys

The Extraordinary Revolution [ReVo]

P/W

Shield Bash + Balance Stance + Watch Yourself! = Puzzled Assasin.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor

Xaero Gouki Kriegor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Leather Rebels, (LR)

W/

your a warrior, but i don't see anything that says you can't use your secondary mostly. . . .

W/Me

Signet Of Midnight {E} (GOOD GAME right here)
Empathy
Spirit Of Failure
Clumsieness
Deadly Riposte
Shield Stance
Disciplined Stance

rest may vary

basicly, you know what your fighting agaisnt, SHUT HIM DOWN!

i don't believe in 1v1 very much, for i think its kinda stupid and not really determining the skills of someone in this TYPE of game which really depends on 8v8, 4v4, 6v6, or 1vMany AI(PvE Solo), so i pull out this cheap arse build every time a war challenge's me into a fight, or i use one of the builds used agaisnt aatxe's in 1v1 department when challenged by melee character

jesh

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

If you're a w/mo and snare hexes are eating you, why not use Holy Viel?
Other than that, sure, Balanced Stance works great vs assassins.. no crits = no energy in most cases, but I don't see how it will be that useful outside of a 1v1 fight.

TadaceAce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldritch Icefist
zerker stance
sever artery
gash
silverwing/galrath
deadly reposite
reposite
glads defence
rez sig
seriously... hes already a wammo... now your gonna make him the joke of all pvp by making him bring riposte (or reposite as spelled by this guy), deadly riposte, and gladiators defense. Your going about this all wrong, your job is to not counter the assassin, your job is to kill faster than the assassin...

About 1v1... its gonna be all about Hero V Hero, I hope they let us choose an opponent if we really want so I can just rip to shreds all the wammos who think they are amazing.

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowfox1125
Shock + Frenzy is 10 energy; 5e each. And I have never met a good warrior with 30 energy before. The most you can get with a FULL Glads set is 28 energy, and I emphasized good earlier because no decent warrior uses a +5e weapon to attack. You can if you use the + energy sword and if there is an axe version as well.I got 30 energy from a PvP Warrior with a full set of Glads.To the OP start thinking like Warrior and not a Tank.

jesh

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

I think the reason that was stated is, to my knowledge, there are no +5 energy weapons that have a 15%^50 mod or anything similair. Your role is to do damage, not ping your energy.

lol @TadaceAce
That's kind of what I was saying, but you said it so much better. =P

Shadowfox1125

Shadowfox1125

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

PST

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
You can if you use the + energy sword and if there is an axe version as well.I got 30 energy from a PvP Warrior with a full set of Glads.To the OP start thinking like Warrior and not a Tank.
This thread is a little old, but what the heck. Age, you completely missed my point. No decent warrior uses a +5e in battle. You start thinking like a warrior, not a tank. A "tank" might require the +5energy, while the damage dealing warriors used in PvP absolutely would not. Shocking the Ghostly Hero in HoH is fine, but anywhere else, leave the +5e weapons to the casters.

not so newb

not so newb

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

W/N

Ya a good anti assasin build might require you using backbreaker or devestating hammer or earth shaker mixed with after shock.Also you might want to take armor of earth or watch yourself for some extra defence.

The Real Roy Keane

The Real Roy Keane

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Dublin, Ireland

Armour of Earth is a self snare, there's few worse skills you can pack on a Warrior.
All the advise about packing Ripostes is horrible, they're redundant skills in PvP. Knocking down or interrupting an Assasin in the middle of his attack chain is your best bet.

Thom Bangalter

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

MO

E/Mo

The Linebacker is ftw.

heroajax1

heroajax1

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

By Any Other Name [Rose]

W/

I think the key here is to simply interupt the 'sin chain of skills. Hammer FTW! Figure out what killed you by watching the skills beign used. It's entirely possible (highly likely) that 'sin set himself up as a tank killer. Not a whole lot you can do about that if you're going solo. Many peeps had good suggestions for counter skills. So, try them out, see what works.