Why my Ranger (and her Lizard) is Ticked Off about Nightfall - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

chichory

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

R/W

06 Oct 2006 at 00:28 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmndidjit

“Balance” only comes into play in PvE when something is way out proportion, like the original 55 monk. While pet controls would make a lot of PvE easier and far more enjoyable, I doubt they would break the PvE game like the 55 monk did. Unfortunately, being able to control and direct your pet more easily in PvP would have a far greater effect on the game, and PvP balance trumps PvE in this game every time. If we are given pet controls, it would most likely come with some severe nerfing of the pet.

I very much agree with you here, however that being said pets are not really much part of high level gvg as it is, perhaps a simple "return" comand could be put in, as not only would this help in preventing your pet running away after a target uncontrollably but it could be used as a slowly but decent way to get them to change targets better than the wait afew minutes current one

I do not think this simple command would put out of balance the skills which have been buffed and beyond to account for the lack of brains, but it is quite hard to tell.

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

06 Oct 2006 at 01:03 - 42

How are pets overpowered exactly?

I mean,HA/GvG certainly arent riddled with nothing but Beastmastery builds.

chichory

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

R/W

06 Oct 2006 at 01:36 - 43

To me pets in their current form take the role of being an addition to something else you focus in, like the thumper for instance, where you have to give 2/3rds your bar up for them but the 1/3 you do is very important.

Running high beast still allows you room for other weapon options and such, which say, running an axe does not (i.e nobody runs evis with hammer bash in a switch out) This to me makes them something different than just another warrior added to the team.

If pet Ai is buffed to very advanced levels, where it is possible to spike and such with them i see them becoming something that you take instead of that warrior or whatever, which i think would take the meaning away from what they are now.

If what i have just said makes no sense and is completly flawed, please excuse as i have been without sleep for 25 hours

study for tests tomorrow ftl.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

06 Oct 2006 at 01:44 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

lol...you people should try to train your dog to do stuff...like using the toilet...

Then you'll see how hard it REALLY is to control pet. GW on the otherhand, is very realistic on this.

lol.. you should try a PuG, then you'll see how really hard it can be to control realy humans... controlling a pet is nothing compared to that...

dmndidjit

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2006

06 Oct 2006 at 01:57 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

How are pets overpowered exactly?

I mean,HA/GvG certainly arent riddled with nothing but Beastmastery builds.

IWAY? Though not a real beasmaster build, it does show some of the problems having 2x party members can cause.

Pets aren't overpowered. In fact ANet has done a lot to buff them over the last year and a half (increased armor and damage as well as several skill buffs.) Giving only one or two basic commands would help, but would also probably cause a lot of people to scream for even better control. The problem with pets in every game I have played is that you are doubling the hit points of the team with little trade off. The current trade off in GW is 1-2 slots in a very limited skill bar and having to put up with minor control of your pet. I use Warrior and Ranger builds that use pets, I don't like it any better than anyone else. I just don't put a lot of faith in any statement from an ANet employee besides Izzy. When the great and powerful Izzy says he's worked out the balance issues, we'll see something. Until then, I just keep clicking my heels together and wishing.

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

06 Oct 2006 at 03:35 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Can you take your hero into Random Arenas? No. Can you bring your hero into GvG? No. Can you use your heroes in anything (either than hero battles) that is PvP? No.

I'm only concerned with PvE these days. Thankfully, ANet is moving away from the fantasy that PvP and PvE must be identical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

They have skills that deal high amounts of damage (80 damage anyone?), can be given 15 damage reduction, and ressurect in about 1 second. If your heroes were like that you wouldn't need to even fight, your heroes would kill almost anything.

Why do people fixate on a *SINGLE* skill, Enraged Lunge? Also, I think that skill *is* over powered, and should be weakened a bit. Other pet attack skills are very comparable with other professions' attack skills.

I can't give my pet absorption runes, or a shield, or armor; also, Call of Protection (the skill in question) is Prophecies-only, which doesn;t do Factions and Nightfall players any good.

As for the res: My pet can't be raised by a normal Monk Skill or Res Signet, so I end up havign to carry *TWO* resurrect skills if I take my pet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Now about the idea of being able to send your pets using the flag system. I am strongly against the idea. When you die, you can still command with the flags. This means you could then send your pet all over the place while you lie there dead.

I don;t think the flags and commands should work for Heroes when I'm dead. How in the heck am I directing Heroes when I'm a corpse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

As it stands, the pets' poor controls balances out their otherwise overpowered abilities.

If pets are over-powered, why haven;t we seen Beastmasters dominate in PvP? *Any* PvP? And they're rarer than hen's teeth in PvE, too. Ever see a PuG spamming "GLF Beastmaster?" I haven't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I guess you've never played as a beast master. Once you get to 16 Beast Mastery, the amount of time your skills are disabled for gets reduced greatly.

I *only* play my ranger as a Beastmaster, devoting five of 8 skills and 12 attribute points to Beast Mastery. I do this not because it is necessarily powerful, but because it is challenging. No, I don't personally find Blackout much of a problem -- but then, I work hard at making sure Fluffy doesn't die.

Pets are very useful, and I plan to continue using my pet whether or not ANet adds pet controls. On the other hand, I do not see why a massive buff to henchmen (Heroes) can not also provide a small buff to Beastmasters, one of the rarest builds in the game.

No, B/P does not count as a Beastmaster.

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

06 Oct 2006 at 05:09 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

If pets are over-powered, why haven;t we seen Beastmasters dominate in PvP? *Any* PvP? And they're rarer than hen's teeth in PvE, too. Ever see a PuG spamming "GLF Beastmaster?" I haven't.

I didn't say they're overpwered. In fact, I said that they are balanced BECAUSE they have a slow reaction to commands. They are so balanced in fact, that people don't want to use them in PvP because they don't get an advantage.

Thallandor

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Singapore

Seers of Serpents [SoS]

R/

06 Oct 2006 at 06:12 - 49

/signed for putting in pet controls along with the Hero controls.

Hmm a cute addition would be to have pets able to pick up loot for ya lol- dont think it will happen here. Alternatively maybe minipets can fulfil this role so that they are of some use other than some decorative dolls/toys.

Xeeron

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

Strike Force

06 Oct 2006 at 10:12 - 50

/not signed

Rangers may hate me for this, but do you really think a pet, which does NOT take a party slot, does not take drops, should be as valuable as a hero?

- Xeeron

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

06 Oct 2006 at 12:46 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeeron

/not signed

Rangers may hate me for this, but do you really think a pet, which does NOT take a party slot, does not take drops, should be as valuable as a hero?

- Xeeron

Last time I checked we were destined to get a Mesmer Hero.You know..an AI based counter?Yeah.Thats clearly weaker than a pet you have the ability to control.

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

06 Oct 2006 at 12:53 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeeron

/not signed

Rangers may hate me for this, but do you really think a pet, which does NOT take a party slot, does not take drops, should be as valuable as a hero?

Did you actually *read* my original post?

I am not asking for super pets. I am asking for simple control, just like I'd have of any well-trained animal. Just a simple ability to say "stay" and "attack" and "come here".

I still won't be able to put armor on my pets (other than spells, which people get top, and I need to carry separate skills for party members and my pet).

I still won't be able to give my pet weapons.

I still won't be able to add runes to my pet.

Explain how a few very simple controls would make pets over-powered.

Elruid

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

06 Oct 2006 at 15:09 - 53

I think most people could be satisfied with a few simple controls.
Two modes: Passive and Aggressive.

In Passive mode the pet doesn't do anything but follow you around.
If set on Passive when it's further away from you, it will abandon everything it was doing up to that point
and proceed to follow you around.
In Aggressive mode the pet would be like it is now.

Just add two small buttons somewhere with which to change the Mode, and that's it.

Shantel Span

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

Knights of King Thorn [Mad]

A/N

06 Oct 2006 at 15:19 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Koss doesn't have an elite that costs 5 energy and does +80 dmg every 5 secs, and doesn't have a shout that make him have -15 dmg reduction all the time for 5 energy every 2 minutes or so, or a shout that makes him move AND attack 25% that can be kept up all the time for 10 energy every 30 secs. He also cant be rezzed with a 1 sec cast time resurrection spell that gives him 61% health back on rez.

Cough...Koss has is own skill bar, he doesn't suck up all your skills just to have a functioning build. Bow rangers' weapons switch targets immediately. Warrior's weapons switch targets immediately. Why can't the beastmaster's weapon, the pet, switch? We need some control over our own weapons. I don't see the warrior's axe getting DP at all.

Things that were already mentioned pets need:
- Movement control
- Target control/pulling
- Effects monitor
- /beg....beastmaster weapons!

My ranger runs 16 Beastmastery, 13 Expertise, ~4 Wild Survival. I use an insightful Bo Staff for the looks and energy - can we get a staff, a wand, a whip, bow - I don't care, something that affects our beastmaster abilities? Or even something that deals max damage with a req in Beastmastery?

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

06 Oct 2006 at 15:39 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantel Span

...can we get a staff, a wand, a whip, bow - I don't care, something that affects our beastmaster abilities? Or even something that deals max damage with a req in Beastmastery?

Lordy, have I wished for such items. Every other class has weapons and items tied to *all* of their attributes, even when it makes no sense (Phi's Wisdom, anyone?) Rangers can *only* have items tied to *one* attribute, Marksmanship.

I was hoping for even the tiniest bit of Ranger love from ANet in Nightfall. Sadly, we get four very weak Beatsmastery skills (admitedly some other skills are good, tho), no new weapons, no pet controls...

...sigh. Where's the love for my lizard?

Big_Iron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

The Edge

Tormented Weapons [emo]

06 Oct 2006 at 16:27 - 56

I'm really happy to see so much support for better pet controls here. I know Anet watches the boards closely. Hopefully they'll take note and give us what we're asking for eventually.

Grubcat

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

Team of Oblivious Targets [TOOT]

06 Oct 2006 at 16:41 - 57

Oh yes- just what I was going to post- why don't we have any type of weapon that uses/enhances beast mastery? I use an earth staff for the extra energy, so my damage is negligible, which is ok, because Miss Kitty is doing my dirty work. But how nice would it be to have a max damage staff with 15 energy?
Where are the mods for +1 BM while enchanted, etc?

felinette

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Girl Power [GP]

Me/

06 Oct 2006 at 16:55 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

I don't even have an indicator telling me that Call of Protection is wearing off... I have to GUESS.

You don't have to guess for CoP. If the skill is lit up, it's not in effect. I remember the first time I used CoP, I thought there was a bug because the skill took so long to light up again--two minutes, actually.

I've also noticed that if you run into opponents that strip conditions/effects/whatever, the skill can light up very quickly. Get what I'm saying?

Unfortunately, that's not true for ALL pet skills. I'd like to know if my pet has performed the last attack I pressed without having to watch. For example, if I press Feral Lunge, the skill should stay dark until the pet has completed the attack or I press another pet attack.

I agree that pets need some kind of rudimentary control. Could be as simple as what I suggested above, combined with the henchie go/stay flag. To me, the current implementation of pets is a half-assed, inadequate implementation. It's time for Anet to finish the job.

Legolas Ravenwood

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

England

N/R

06 Oct 2006 at 17:33 - 59

I think the main things that we are looking for with pet upgrades are:-

Pet Control Panel - Hero Style
Just like the Hero control panel, without skills and energy etc.

General Pet Action - Faster Responses
Take out the delay of your pet realising you're attacking someone else.

Flagging - Movement Control
Pet Control by flagging on the radar.

Pet Status - Attack Indications
Just a simple "Pet Attack Failed" appearing above my head would be enough for me.

Pet Status - Hex Identification
This is actually to do with the pet control panel, thinking back to the Hero panel.

GAHHHH what is with that invading little 1 behind the 2?

LiamR

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

Prefer Unlight Beer [PuB]

06 Oct 2006 at 17:52 - 60

/signed many times.

I also think we should be able to make our tigers fly.

zling

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

06 Oct 2006 at 19:34 - 61

for 1 I agree that pets need an improved AI. and I dont think they're overpowered nor will be with the new AI lmao... right now pets are just stupid besides being useful as "dead allies" for IWAY or meat shields for B/P... Beast Master build is also an option but a rather weak 1 I must say, mainly due to the pet AI not the skills involved... as I see Beast Masters now they're pretty much like Assassins just with less killing power... the pet either kills its target or gets stuck attacking it forever and not doing anything useful and sooner or later die...

oh and by the way, a Beast Mastery weapon will be nice but your arguement for it is wrong... all CASTER classes have weapons tied to all attributes, and Ranger isnt a CASTER class, neither is a Warrior who only has weapons tied to its weapon attribute and off hand(shield) tied to either Strength of Tactics, and neither with a 20/20 as it's impossible due to the lacking of spells and thus not being a CASTER class. however Beast Mastery as others here have mentioned should be considered as an alternative WEAPON and thus should have a staff(most fitting) or bow(if Rangers only have bows in Anet's opinion) which is tied to beast mastery, and the mods should affect the PET not the Ranger, such as 20/20 Sundering mod for the PET or +30 hp for the PET...

scrinner

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

06 Oct 2006 at 20:27 - 62

I think a use of pets would be, Send pet in and tank. However pets dont have the basic henchmen knowledge either. They do not follow Calls, But a shot from your bow. The Latter making it very diffificult. Various things are needed with pets.
1) Ability to listen to calls
2) Flag System
3) Basic commands to that pet.

Hyper Cutter

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Knights of the White Eye [HINA]

06 Oct 2006 at 21:40 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Every other class has weapons and items tied to *all* of their attributes

The Assassin doesn't, and the Dervish probably doesn't either...

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

06 Oct 2006 at 21:43 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

Well, if they eventually make pets get DP in PvE they better make them more controllable, or they'll be worthless.

they DID give pets dp, months ago.
edit: oh look, Im an idiot... it was only for pvp... see I learned something new today

Ron vo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

arizona

Insert Witty Guild Name

A/Me

06 Oct 2006 at 22:07 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

You can't see what hexes (to a less extent conditions) are on the pet though. The hero windows show effects.

I really been yearning for a way to see my hexes on foes for a while,they should also just replace Capture Pet as a signet skill so it doesnt take up a bar.

Shindo The Nightmare-respect my authoritah!

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

06 Oct 2006 at 22:23 - 66

I want controls over every one of my minions, all 10 of them!

lol jk. I do agree with OP

/signed

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

06 Oct 2006 at 22:24 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

The Assassin doesn't, and the Dervish probably doesn't either...

You're right... I hadn't thought of that. And I played a Dervish in both previews...

I can't complain too loudly about Ranger weapons, given that the selection of bows is very nice. My ranger has 15 bows at the moment, and more when I finally get a decent Storm Bow to drop in UW.

I can live without more weapon types. I just want basic control over my pet.

The Last Preacher

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

UK

None and looking!

N/

07 Oct 2006 at 11:06 - 68

You know what I want? To be able to have a minion party window with full feature controls. Please.

english storm

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

W/Mo

07 Oct 2006 at 14:33 - 69

during the preview event there was a box or two next to the hero flag control that was greyed out. I would say that one of these will be for pet control. They have the means to implement this now so it would be silly of them not too.

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

07 Oct 2006 at 20:03 - 70

Yeh I think it would help if pets weren't chasing after everything. Then maybe, just MAYBE people would use them outside of B/P groups.

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

08 Oct 2006 at 08:01 - 71

They can't add all in one chapter, maybe the 4th one will be the "Pet's Chapter"

Maybe a flag for control minions is also needed (anyway, minions have no brain, so ...)

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

08 Oct 2006 at 08:47 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

(anyway, minions have no brain, so ...)

Ahh, as true as that may be, they are animated by magic, so why not controlled by that same magic? Telepathic link? Extension of the necromancer? In fact, it actually makes more sense to be able to 'control' minions than it does pets and henchmen.

What's funny is that minions are the last thing I'd want control of. Wayyyy too much micro-management. 3 Heroes is almost too much. Just give us MM's a window with all the minions' health and a way to select specific ones without searching with the mouse.

Pet controls are a must, though, and make the most sense, IMO. After all, if you have a pet, that means you have Beast Mastery (no matter the point spread). Beast Master implies that you know how to train and control 'beasts' or animals. Seems rather elementary to me.

ValaOfTheFens

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Warrior Nation[WN]

08 Oct 2006 at 13:04 - 73

/signed!!

It seems natural that a Ranger should have control of his/her Pet.

As for greater Minion control...I dunno if thats a viable idea. I have as many as 7 at a time and giving them individual directions would be a hassle. Heck, half of them would be dead! Too bad Necros can't make Pets out of bones. They wouldn't be like typical skeletons but more like a permanent minion.

Enchanted Warrior

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2006

W/Mo

08 Oct 2006 at 22:48 - 74

I agree Rangers need better pet controls.

Rhaps

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2005

Sinners amongst Saints

R/N

09 Oct 2006 at 02:03 - 75

/signed, 100 times signed.

I've been playing a Beastmaster from day one. My first ever char was a Ranger Beastmaster and I still give her much love 15 months and plenty of other chars later. It would be great for my pet to finally come when its called.

Juicey Shake

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

CA

in it for the trimmmm

R/

09 Oct 2006 at 03:00 - 76

please no..

anyone remember the woc izzy was interviewed on? he said, even- controls put on pets = their damage output gets toned down. q__q.

which makes sense, you would be able to do some amazing spikes with pets syncing in with your attacks.. ><

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

09 Oct 2006 at 03:10 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juicey Shake

please no..

anyone remember the woc izzy was interviewed on? he said, even- controls put on pets = their damage output gets toned down. q__q.

which makes sense, you would be able to do some amazing spikes with pets syncing in with your attacks.. ><

I'll trade a nerf in Enraged Lunge (which seems to be what people are fixated on) for decent pet controls. It doesn;t matter how much damage a pet can do if that damage can't be aimed.

Again: Why is it OK for my character to have three customizable heroes who can be controlled, but my pet can't be? Koss does a heckuva lot more damage than my pet will -- and I can give Koss upgraded weapons and runes, and heroes don't cost me a skill slot, and heroes can be resed and healed using party spells.

Seems to me that Izzy's objections need a revision.

Juicey Shake

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

CA

in it for the trimmmm

R/

09 Oct 2006 at 03:28 - 78

um. koss can be replaced by a human player.
your pet cannot.

I'd rather a more powerful pet that follows my target jumping with a few second delay than a weak one that follows immediately

TheLordOfBlah

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

California

None

Mo/N

09 Oct 2006 at 03:31 - 79

And who has told you that they arent considering it? I'm not saying its going to be in there but they MIGHT be working on it for pets.

Nevin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

09 Oct 2006 at 03:39 - 80

Why my Ranger (and my lizard) ARE* ticked off about Nightfall.

NeoSaber

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2005

Guildless For Life

R/N

09 Oct 2006 at 03:52 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Seems to me that Izzy's objections need a revision.

If I remember that WoC interview with Izzy correctly, he said that until pets get controls he can't balance them properly. For now, their damage has been set to be overpowered so that if they actually find a target, they'll hurt it.

The way I understood his comments, he's waiting for pet controls to be added so he can balance out beast mastery and get it working well. Until pet controls come along, there isn't much he can do about it. It's not his intention that they remain in their current state, he's just waiting for the programmers to get the pet controls done.