Putting the Multiplayer back in Guild Wars

Gasmaskman,

I think the reference of "it's closer to PvP with hero's (than with) henchmen" refers to the fact that since a Hero character can have a different build (i.e. you can change it as much as you want), customizable armor and weapons, etc. it is a bit closer to playing with a human than an "always this build, always this mentality" Henchman (though one could argue the almost fanatical nature of some PvP players comes closer to henchman than humans...)

---

Personally here's my view.

I have a lot to do, I'm your average casual gamer with periodic spikes of addiction. Often enough I cram in some GW time amidst a busy work day. I may not have enough time to sit there and wait for a group to find the second (or third...) monk, just because they feel its necessary.
-Or that I might not get accepted because I'm not the right profession/build, because they believe the almight cookie-cutter is the word of law in GW.
-Or because I don't have enough Rank to get taken into your group, because no one will take me into a group because I don't have rank... because I can't get into a group... because I don't have rank... because I can't... See where this is going?

Sitting in a district and waiting for something to start is not my idea of fun. I might have 20 minutes to do a quick quest/mission between classes or before work or studying, or group projects, or drill, or dating, or whatever other thing that occupies my time.

Simply put, if I don't want to (or don't have the time to) wait I don't have to. I can start right away, and now I have even more control/variety within the game.

I could join a PvP guild, sure. They're always recruiting, but that would entail me leaving my guild, which I've got to say is my favorite one yet. Its a crazy bunch of people who have fun with PvE and the occasional PvP, why leave that?

When I have plenty of time, of course I like PuGs, or grouping with my roommates/guildies. The most a hero/hench can say to you is pre-programmed statements. You don't hear the laughter of your roommate who just aggro'd everything on the map because he tried answering a call from his girlfriend and playing at the same time. Or the group of guildies who continuously talk about random things.

For those who want to play with others, there will always be PuGs/Guilds. After all, look how many people here are voicing their opinion because they think that is at risk?

For those that don't want to aspire to sink to the newest FotM, or don't meet some (perhaps) idiotic requirement of a group, or simply don't have time, there will always be Heros/Hench.

Exactly, I've set a record (personal one) of 18 hours of playtime tonight because I didn't get bored of LFG TANK GLF MONK GLF MM crap. Iwas able to do whatever I wanted because I don't have to depend on boneheads who draw privates on the compass or tell me I suck because I'm not a tank, finally me and my friend can phone eachother get heroes set up and adventure with a co-ordinated team.

As far as the /sign, /notsign is concerned - I really don't know. I liked to PUG even when they were idiots and a$$holes. Interacting with people should be one of the major points in an online game. But on the other hand, heroes enable me to play the way I like and set my own pace. On top of that, they spare me the bull**** of PUG idiots, even if the idiots are guildies. I have successfully hero-henched 3 mission that our guild team was not able to complete because of resident idiots who have to have their way. Killing the Drought was too easy with a hero-hench team, they've killed it so fast I couldn't cap his elite.

Em........ GOOD!

Whats the issue? If people want to play with humans they can, if not they have heroes and henches.

The only reason I opt for AI most of the time is because I explore as I go, and most people would winge at me for doing it.

I use humans when going for bonuses and master titles because you need intelligence.

Otherwise I cant be bothered with the arogance of humans at times.

Heroes are a god send.

Would you rather they removed Heroes and took away the best update in months.

/signed

Also allow only 1 hero in your party in PvE, instead of 3. And when you change area, your heroes get kicked so you have to reform the party as if it was with henchmen.

I just hate seeing 20 people all with a number above their head, it means not a single one of them is playing with real people.

Btw, I find it funny that the tagline for Nightfall is "Never fight alone". I have only fought alone in Nightfall! Not played with another person even once!

Pugs are awful. If you want human interaction, join a guild.

/Notsigned.


The problem isnt heros, its the terrible community and the lack of control and policing Anet does of the game.

Heros are a god send, but in the first few weeks after the release of nightfall, there an obvious drop in people LFG.

Simple answer is to wait untill the novelty wears off, and see if more people look to play the game with other people.

I mean they are basiclly customisable henchmen, and we have had henchmen since the day prophecies was released, so whats all the fuss about?

Exactly what I was thinking as I read this thread. I've played with multiple people since nightfall started but I still spent most of my time with heroes and henchies. Taking away the heroes will annoy me but I'll still just go round with henchies instead. And don't start saying we should take away henchies.

seems people dont get what PvP is about or could we call it PvH nowadays...
I rather have my friends and guildmates helping me out when needed. Heros are perfect answer for PvE missions and quests nobody wants to do with you. Some characters like healing monks, mesmers, curse necros and all them 'weird' professions werent getting into a team easy. Why? People never bothered to use them or they just cant figure out a way to play them good. For those who think that, will not allow sins and such into a party easy. I often heard after a mission good job... or you actualy stayed alive while the warriors died -.- and i was just playing my A/R....

Point is people didnt care for a monk or w/e until they found themselves with a lacking alesia and lina stuck in THK. 6/8 party LF 2 monks.... < I still log on and can count all the join me plx whispers and invites.

/signed for PvP <<< this is player vs player = human, not AI even though sometimes AI is better I rather have real players then a Koss or w/e trying to do a WT.

Oh I have no problem offering people advice IF they want it/ ask for it. But I'm not going to butt in and tell someone how they should be playing. How would I be any better than the other people I'm complaining about then? I don't mind helping people out if they are new and/or need a hand, but more often that not (now) I'm getting hollered at for 'sticking my nose into business that is not my own' when I offer help or advice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" It's like the law that says if you save a persons life, but in the process that person breaks their ankle that person has the right to sue you for pain and suffering; it just doesn't pay to be a good semaritin (sp?) if you're just going to get bitched at for it.

They make keep heroes in PvP... what kind of player are you if you can't deal with bots? PvE is a different story, it's cool that you don't have to pug anymore, but ones in a while a I wanna play with human players. Right now however it's impossible to get into a group.

I'm in a guild, I'm in a big guild. And every single person in my guild, and all the guilds of my alliance, is playing with their heroes. I used to see requests for help all the time, but since NF came out, I haven't seen one. Well actually, I did see one. Someone asked for help with Nahpui Quarter, poor guy must not have had NF so he didn't have heroes to be his friends.

I dont like it, there is no more teamspirit and challenges with real ppl.

heroes are just amazing, and they should leave it the way it is now, even with the pvp. its just.....perfect.

that smile on my face when i went to the Eternal Grove mission where i was stuck on for days with my assassin (just couldnt do it with hench XD...and yes, who on earth would want an assassin in his team?), and got the Masters Reward in the end with my heroes. and thats just one of the many examples.

i doubt i will use human players again (lol, not that i had that much human groups, simply for the reason that i love mesmers and assassins a lot) since the heroes proved me time on time again, that they are AT LEAST just as good as humans(though i find my heroes to be way BETTER then humans) the hero-system must be one the best things ever.

The OP (and many others here) are confusing the cause with the effect. GW never had much community to begin with. The good players almost never pugged even before Nightfall, because they could beat every area in the game with henchmen. Adding heroes doesn't really change that. The thing you have to look at is *why* good players would do this, and then you'll see where the actual problem is.

The fact is that most GW players are terrible in some way or another. Most people are just flat-out incompetent, and the worst ones are so concerned with their egos that they are absolutely unwilling to take advice from better players. Other players are griefers (or at least, have very bad connections), and will intentionally do things to screw up their team, for whatever perverted sense of satisfaction this gives them. Still others are immature assholes that spam team chat with useless crap, talk smack, brag about their meager accomplishments, and just won't stfu in general.

Given all of this, there is no reason for any decent player to find a group of other players. Henchmen and Heroes are NOT THE PROBLEM, they are the RESULT OF THE PROBLEM. If the GW community had better players and better people, henchmen or heroes would be completely unnecessary. But that's not the case.

Seriously, sit down and think about it.

/unsigned


I have to put emphasis on this.

Since 6 months, I have never pugged. I use henchies (and was able easily to "master" half the factions missions only with them) or guildies/GW friends (I've met while PvPing).
I don't consider myself as a "good player" unlike what's said in the quote.
But, sometimes, you just don't have time to loose with potential leeroys. Seriously.

I have a little skill, but I know some people with a lot more skill than me. And I've never seen them PUGging, too.

ANNOUNCEMENT FOR THE NEW PLAYERS YELLING HEROS ARE WRECKING THE MULTIPLATER COMMUNITY

TWO (2) MONTHS AFTER GW FIRST WENT LIVE THERE WERE ALREADY COMPLAINT THREADS ALL OVER THAT THEY WOULD RATHER HENCH THAN DEAL WITH THE JERKS.

SMARTER HEROS ARE ANETS ANSWER TO THE JERK / NOBODY ON PROBLEM.

GO ANET

the problem is not heros wrecking the community but the community being for a lot of it social dregs to begin with

LoL, there wasn't any team spirit to begin with, the only spirit there was was suck up to the monk and necromancer so they stay. For anyone playing Elementist or Assassin, sometimes even mesmer, there is no dilusion of team spirit, people arn't in it to help out people they don't know, they are in it for themselves.

I have played games with nothing but team spirit, FFXI was one of them. And the reason teamspirit was so strong was because of a mutual appreciation for the final fantasy legacy, and a complete and utter lack of dynamic and enjoyable gameplay.

Now people will only play with other people if they want to, and if you want to than you can find someone else who wants to and do it. If you can't find anyone who wants to play with people instead of henchmen, than it is an extremely obvious sign that people perfer to play with heros who will, even with their lesser AI, accomplish far more with their coordinated skills and abilities and balanced team composition.

The fact that you, if you actually tried to find a PUG, cannot find players to join you in missions is overwhelming proof that the majority of players enjoy it, so trying to remove an advantage because you don't like it really isn't going to register on the poles.

Now I can sympathize a little with keeping heros out of most PvP, there are some significant advantages henchmen can excersize over players, particularly the precognitive interrupting skills. But heros lack the ability to select targets intellegently, and many builds which require an element of seperation can fail misserably with Heros. So I think it can be very fair. Try using some anti spam skills, or punishment skills, it may be very hard for Heros to realize they are defeating themselves with SS and Empathy, or SoJ.

My final suggestion is that if there are other players who sympathize with the OP, and are interested in playing with other players, than post new guild and an invitation right here and get together and play, if your all so interested in playing with other people, than youv'e found your match, and you can reach eachother right here.

I've found myself henching a lot lately with nightfall. Though I have had some PUGs. Luckily my ratio of good to bad pugs is about 1 bad pug for every 10 i'm in. But generally I only rely on PUGs when my friends can't spare the time.

/not signed

Why would we want to put up with people if we dont want to . Some people in this game are rediculous little boys that comlpain about everything and if you want you can stilll get a party if ..say...your in a guild or have friends mabey.

/not signed

well some of you dont feel our pain. its hard spamming LFG to do this quest.
some times i do those quest with henchies coz no one will get me from their group (not when im a monk).

And stupid/jerk players make my blood boil!

I'd rather get heroes and henchmen than risk my HEALTH playing with those kind of players.

I think heroes actually have a positive impact on PUG's. Because those who have neither the time nor patience to put up with failure/noobs will now use heroes instead. So what left in PUG's are people who actually want to enjoy each other's company. For people who miss PUG's interaction like myself, we can always complete missions first with heroes/hench and later go back to redo missions with PUG's. A PUG which focuses more on human interaction and less on the goal completion is a dream come true imho.

/NOT SIGNED.

Sorry but the OP sounds more like a rant. If you like to play with real pple get them from your alliance/guild. Heros mechanics are a large selling point for Nightfall and it also helps to deal with replayablity of older chapters where mission towns are officially ghost towns. To remove them from missions now entirely will create a much bigger problem now then it would to applease a portion of the population.

ow i agree with the Ghost town concept.. yeah some of the mission outposts dont have enough players to make a team. and those players doubt the abilities of henchmen. Heroes, however, will come in handy because they have higher level when it comes to fighting and/or healing abilities.

I realised something last night which makes this entire agrument againt Heroes void.

They do serve a very good purpose in Tyria.



For those who dont know what the Titan Quest are, then you wont understand this.

But when it comes to completing the last Titan Quest and your stood in that little town, only able to take 4 players, and either there are NO lvl20s there able to help you, or you can only find lvl20s whos professions you dont need, then Heroes are perfect.

I took my Heroes back to Tyria last night, and I was able to attempt that final Titan quest instantly.

If we didnt have the Heroes, then...

1. I would have to stand there for maybe 2 hours trying to find more lvl20s to do it.
2. If I did find lvl20s, chances are they would be a bad combination of professions.
3. I cant take henches from that location because their all way bellow lvl20.




Then you have exploration!!!

For those who dont care about 100% exploration in tyria, then again you dont understand this.

But if your trying for 100% in tyria, you need to explore between beacons perch and the warcamp.

Before Heroes came along, you could NEVER get an exploration part of lvl20s to go south from there to help explore.... why?

Because everyone only cares about being RUN to Droks.

No one wants to explore that area, and you always get under lvl20s asking to join you when they wouldnt last 2 seconds.

Plus the henches there are again, far bellow lvl20.




Im sure there are other countless areas where this would help too, when its near impossible to find a high end party to explore or do a quest.



"The Villany of Glarath" for instance.

Or the other Titan Quests!




Heroes are a god-send in situations like that and the idea of some to only allow us to use 1 heroe at a time is rediculious.

I say thank you to Anet for giving them to us and allowing us to always have lvl20s with us in a party.




To make us 100% dependant on Humans for parties is stupid. We should have the choice to bring our own lvl20 henches.

For instances just like that.

/not signed

MDeshame brought everything just to the point.

I hadn't even thought about the Titen Quests. Maybe I can finish those damn things now. Its impossible to find anyone to do those darn things.

As for the exploration titles, heroes are handy for exploring in general because you can take your time.

Heros are a godsend, really. Admittedly, I don't look for other players as often as I used to, but that wasn't very often anyway. >.>

The fact is I just got sick of ending up with parties of firestorm warriors, people who can't spell the word "you", twelve year olds whose grasp of the english language is limited to four letter words.
I was using henchies all through prophecies and factions pretty much, after my first character.
Naturally, I tag along with guildies as much as possible, which makes up most of my 'multiplayer' time. When such things aren't possible, I simply sit in town and roleplay out an "LFG" of sorts in local. If I'm lucky, after a few minutes I find one or two intelligent players worth travelling with.
The downside to this, is that most people have local turned off due to the fact that it has become trade channel v2.

/notsigned

I'm quite tired of dealing with supid people and PUG's. I see no reason to force people to rely on someone that could be a jerk and screw up the whole mission right at the end.

Personally, I find the addition of heroes very helpful. As many have already mentioned, sometimes, it just takes too long to find good groups or groups with people who do not insult others and/or desert you in the middle of a mission/quest, etc. I haven’t a lot of time to play, but when I do, I would like to be able to do more than spend the majority of it looking for groups, and it is not nice to be insulted for the way I like to play my characters or to be stranded in the middle of a mission surrounded by hostile creatures.

For PvP, I understand the issues of bringing in heroes, and there should be limits to the use of them. But, for a new PvP player, like me, it is most difficult to find people who will allow me to join their group, mainly because I haven’t any ranking - but I’m new, how can I have rank?

Basically, heroes are a very good option to have included in the game. They’re there if you want them and not if you don’t. It’s all personal choice and should remain.

@PVE: The reason everyone is complaining about no human interaction is because all the good players are going with their hero's. All the bad players cant cut it with heros and thus the pool of players has a much higher crappy player ratio than ever.

PUGs are useless. I remember the last time I asked for a monk and checked if she was HEALING or PROTECTION.... she responded healing so I set up for prot. We enter the mission.. and I see the RoF symbol popping up on all our chars. So I watch her for a bit..... RoF.. Prot Spirit.. Life Sheath... etc etc etc.

The best tho was when I was with this monk in THK. The monk just keeps getting wasted.. so we check if he is infused.. and he goes "yup"... Eventually I take a close look and see that he ISN'T wearing a chest piece at all... so I ask him why? He responds "because it wasn't infused"......

@PvP.. does it really matter? All this really underscores is that so many of the altar maps end up being complete crapshoots. The 4 ways aren't much different when one team rolls another quickly and then decides which of the other two strong teams they would rather fight.... Is there really a difference between Zhed and Sousuke spamming Searing Flames and Glowing Gaze then having a human mindlessly pressing 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2. And to be honest, good for the people going out and henching it to get some exp. For all the idiots in PVE.. PvP jerks take the cake by far.. like the GvG where some warrior, snare ele and monk catches me in their base and there warrrior perma frenzies with his monk behind him and then takes the time to first emote, and then dance on my corpse in the middle of a gvg... (the top gvg teams tend to be the epitome of class.. but alot of stuff in the middle are just pure jerks)

Anyways, back on topic.. you run into henchway teams all the time in gvg/ha. And its no biggie. They are usually just on a different level than you and trying to pick up some exp. Good for them. You play the game, it usually takes some 5-8 minutes.. exchange your gg's and move on. The problem really isn't the hero's, it is that no one is really setting up to deal with ele dam dealing.. still running +10 vs physical etc etc and the full searing heat teams are rolling them. Once people get used to ele's dealing mad damage (and glowing gaze gets its nerf - there needs to be a sacrifice for giving up elite e-management) it should be on par with GvG's. Recognizing that your guild group is probably on a different level than people starting out with hero's, playing a good game, exchanging your gg's and moving on. And if someone beats you with hero's, props to them because it is in no way an advantage to take AI over guild groups on vent etc.

No reason to take hero's away from people that want to get exp with Hero's Ascent. If after people adjust to Ele damage etc hero's are still dominating halls, it just goes to show what a crapshoot it really is.

/signed

and as they add more and more towns/outpost/missions to the entire world its all seeming to take on a more ghost town atmosphere. hell even guilds are becoming less social it seems.

perhaps next chapter we will see Anet adding in tumbleweeds so when you look around the towns you see them roll on by giving you more of that isolated ambiance.

i hate to admit i miss the days of the bad pugs now.

/NOT SIGNED. even MORE caps for emphasis.

I love heroes. I get flamed out of PuG's all the time, players in general are assholes or elitist noobs when I interact with them, and I hate them. I do, however, love this game. I deleted my entire friends list when I came back from my 4 month "regain-my-sanity" break, induced by the crazy prophecies idiots and the horrid execution of factions 0.0

I now have around ~8 people on my list. I play with them regularly, and found them just hanging out in town and decided they were nice so I did some quests with them. There is nothing saying that you can't interact with people anymore. It's just a lot easier to manage 3-4 people per group w/ heroes as your fillers. It's a lot less stressfull, and a lot more enjoyable. If you want more drops, solo farm. Nothing is stopping you from not using heroes, most of the people in the game just share the same mentality as mine or others who are /notsigned'ing this for the same reasons I've posted (and many others in this thread) above.

You can play WoW, or Silkroad if you want more player interaction. Maybe a gold-farm-bot or some random lvling-bot will respond w/ a pre-programmed "hello, can I credit-card-fraud" you response. At least someone will talk to you :-)

/notsigned

Heros do provide an alternate option for players, whether they wanna play solo or with PUGs. Even with the hero system intact, one could still look for PUGs if he/she wants to; but without the system, one may be able to solo. I believe seeing the trend of more people going solo now with the hero system goes to show how much the players didn't wanna join up PUGs if they can help it, do you guys not think so?

/Singed 300x times

Heroes have ruined GW now! . It is no more fun!, All i see is 4 ore 8 over all heads with their stupid heroes and some henchs. Only fewer groups use real humans now, but there is still heroes in the groups though

Anet, Get this hero system outta my sight for good!, I had more fun grouping up with real people!

maybe for pvp, were heros are domminating quite alot, but as for PvE i couldn't disagree more...

heros are the only way i will ever finish the ring of fire missions, there like real people and smarted than a few i have seen, but heres the kicker, i can push them around dictorally were ever i want them to go, not were some arsewipe thinks were the bonus is.

for me, as a normal pvp orriented player, heros have been a life saver to pve in my eyes.

/NotSigned

the reason you see this is that the longer you have played the more time you have been exposed to the jerks that spoil a mission from just plain stupidity to intending to ruin it for the *fun of ruining it*

the heroes have not ruined a thing in the last 2 weeks but the pug general community has ruined it over the last 15 months til the players are grabbing the heroes as a game saver.

How is joining up with 7 other random people, of somewhat questionable skill, who you will never see again or have any meaningful conversation with, "fun"?

If you want social interaction, join a guild. Want help with a mission or quest from real people? Join a guild.

PvE side - Heroes are a great addition for many of the cited reasons. I use them for my Cartography work now just like I used henchies only for mapping both Tyria and Cantha. Much easier with Heroes. I stopped using pugs long ago. My friends list however is quite large. It's actually not big enough. I am more than willing to help other people. I do unfortunately see this somewhat limiting the interaction that made GW the worlds only CORPG.
/notsigned in regards to PvE changes

PvP - Whole different animal now. Anet has finally done what should have been implemented from the start. PvP has been effectively seperated from PvE. Too bad it came a year and a half late and after I wasted 1000s of hours outfitting PvE characters for GvG but oh well. Now its fair at least.
Heroway however is BS. Henchway was crap but Heroway is very viable. I made the same complaints about henchway and everyone claims...stop crying its free fame. Yes but I HA for the fun and chest drops to be honest. Im only R7 and I really doubt I have the patience for R9 or anything higher.
Last I checked PvP meant Player versus Player.
Anet you need to change the name of that side of game. Your lying. There is no Player vs Player anymore. Only high level GvG is free of Heroeway.
/signed
*side note....I really dislike how IWAY has turned everying into a fill-in-the-blankWAY

/signed

being just a r3, I only play with my guildies, and everyone knows that rank means nothing, but still there are some jerks that care about it (hi there r9 iwayers =P ).

If you can't get in a pug, get a guild, with the new two FOTM builds (SF and paragonway) you can get in a r0 pug easily.

Its just annoying to see a broken tower match where you see that the other teams are nothing but heroway, and to make it worst they gank you just because you have a whole 6 members human team. Yes its easy to run away from a meteor shower, but its still annoying to dodge 5 freaking meteor showers + the SF spam just because we "had a mantain build"... /endrant

so, yeah, no heros in HA,

/signed