PvE Battlefield: total chaos!

Take a good MM.

While I agree that there are some aggro 'glitches' still happening, I run MM and haven't taken any aggro since the patch. They ALWAYS used to break for me because I run with two superior runes @380hp. But I haven't been touched in Elona!

there ar eonly 2 things i have an issue with, which i think are beyond stupid:
1. Enemies run away for minutes while you chase them
2. Henchies canceling their own skills ALL THE TIME--this is one is just dumb, who coded that anyway...

Now let me say two things before I get into this:
I don't play much pvp
I haven't played Nightfall.

I know there have been a lot of glitches since the update, I've run into some such as the "I've run past the mobs,but I'm still taking damage. *stops to heal and finds himself back in the middle of a mob"

But I have seen no problems whatsoever concerning ridiculous A.I. such as the ones you describe. I've been doing a bit of time in the game since the update, and have actually never had an easier time. It's allowed me to hench areas I couldn't before, to maps areas I couldn't get to for my title.

So a monk runs when you target it. Call a different target for the henchies. Every time that monk comes back, hit it yourself so it runs. The more it runs, the less it heals, the quicker the monsters die. If it doesn't run when you hit it, call it to the henchies so they kill it.

If you like to use AoE, well so what if they scatter. Take advantage of the panic and kill whatever one didn't run, or is closest to you. By the time the rest come back they've lost a couple teammates.

Why is everyone complaining that the enemies go after their back line of henchies? Thats what you are attempting to do to the enemy, so you should have seen it coming.While they take out your back line, take out theres, or use it as an opportunity to trap their tanks while scaring away their monks.

This game has always emphasized skill and strategy. This update has reemphasized that. Remember the '10% rule': you must be 10% smarter than your equipment to use it. In this case, that can mean the enemy or your henchies. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just saying this: sit back, think a minute, and try to figure out why the enemy killed you. Now try and get around it next time. If you're having major bugs, report them and wait a bit till they disappear. Then try again. Hope it goes well, and yes, please try to adapt to the gameplay.

But that's just my two cents

Like many others have already said, if the ai monk is running away from you, just switch targets, his running away is only a problem if you are stuck with the mentality of "Get the monk first! Above and beyond everything else!". If you are chasing that ai monk through 3 or more mobs, who's more intelligent here? I vote the ai monk.

As for the ai going for your backline, bring a custom prot monk hero and a ward of melee ele hero (you can pack blinds too if you want) and just sit there picking your nose, my heroes/henchies could take on almost any mob without me even participating, heh, easy mode for the win.

Maybe now random pugs will appreciate a Hydro Elementalist instead of the typical metorer nuker.

I'm not having any problems really. I've found a wall of bone fiends and minions usually holds up the enemies that break off to attack my casters. Level 20 Olias ftw.

well, I dont like mobs in mmorpg running away from me.

The point of PvEing isn't to fight something that's dumber than you are. That's a truely pathetic way of thinking.

I didn't buy a 20/20 sundering bow string to not get its effect 80% of the time, that doesn't mean I'd be better off without it, or that its rather inexpensive purchase wasn't worth it.

Still, I don't see how the AI doing things you would do makes it "PvP". PvP vs PvE isn't a matter of intelligence, its a matter of setting.

Have someone in your party bring something to slow the enemy down.

There're various factors invloving this problem/modification.

Onoing thread on GWO: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=428035

and

I can't add to this discussion at all, really... because I haven't noticed any of this. I flag all my heroes forwards, they're already in AL formation. The warriors hit their casters, their warriors hit mine, mine kite away. Their warriors pull back towards the middle, and my casters have stopped pulling back and fire AoE into the cluster while my melee's are ripping them apart.

I've been using flail on Koss (awesome stance, in my opinion) and have never had a problem with things kiting, at all.

Exactly. I (mesmer) target enemy monks towards the middle of the fight, after damage is being dealt to their front and midliners. That's when they have to heal more (backfire!) and not when they're ready to dance around.

I personally like the AI update it makes PvE more challeging.

However I don't think all monsters should have this. I personally think monsters in newbie land should run in like kamakaxis then as we get into uber 1337 town we should face intelligent monsters,

I agree with you whole-heartedly, especially about the sheep comment. It never fails to piss me off when people think if they instantly side with anet, it somehow makes them better than the people who complain about an update. Just an extension of the whole elitist, rank flashing, immature and idiodic attitude that surrounds pvp and is the #1 reason I don't pvp at all.

I really don't know what to make of all this. I'm regreting having bought nightfall, because I'm really not sure I want to play this game much longer. The new AI has nothing to do with being "challenging" or something to "liven things up". If I needed a challenge or something new I could try a 5 man Deep, or try to solo Sorrow's Furnace, or I could experiment with a 3 man tombs build... this AI feature is nothing more than the devolopers pushing the game in the direction they best see fit, with no regard for how the players will feel about it.

I'll stick around and see what happens, but I don't plan on spending any more money on the game.

Ok maybe its just me...but these are my reasons for PvE:

1. Exploring and look at scenaries
2. Chat with friends/guildies/alliance member
3. Relax

Call me skill-less or stupid and what not, but when the reason I play PvE is to NOT kill brain cells trying to strategize, I think I thinked enough already in school and work. I don't want a PvP style PvE where I have to constantly call target and kite like mad and to control the headless henchmen.

There is a reason why bosses on PvE do like 400dmg in one shot or has extreme health/armor. THOSE are the challenge that PvE has, dealing with bad spawn, finding ways around mazy map, trying to find bonuses, figuring out seemingly impossible mission and ways to get around that.

Ya, of course I will get serious when I really want to, that's when I press the "guild hall" button in my guild menu. But when I am not PvPing, I want to be "stupid" and "skill-less" and whatever those ppl call me when I am relaxing in a game. (hey, sometimes I play drunk )

Seriously, RPG used to be, and is supposed to be about exploring, questing, ROLEPLAYING. Its sad seeing it degenerate into just killing, looting, finishing mission till end of game, then complain about how the AI is too easy, and how people are skillless or skillful because they beat/can't beat certain AI.....If I want those I go to RTS like starcraft.

Nice post. First you act like a drama queen and throw a tantrum then you insult PVP players and everyone who thought the A.I. update was good.

Personally, I've learned some interesting tactics with my Paragon. I found that if you start off focus-firing on the enemy monk by targetting, they will run (as I would in that situation, get the hell outta there). However, if I target a different mob, like a warrior or ranger mob, then I personally go after the monk, they will stick around and get bombarded.

It's not that hard, really. Honestly, it's not even 'harder' than before, just different. All you have to do is pay attention a little more. You see an enemy run, don't chase them, period. Just change your target to something closer. Once the rest of the runner's team is dead, they don't run anymore.

Just so people know, I'm a very casual player. I've got about 500 hours across all characters in past ten months. The only character I play regularly is my monk. This is what I mean by 'sit back and think':

I tried with random pugs to get through Nahpui. I failed several times. I saw what didn't work. I then didn't play for about a week. I looked at Guild Wiki again to reference the mission. Since I then could realize what was a bad idea to do, I went back to Nahpui, somehow managed to find a half decent pug(i.e. they learned from mistakes) and beat the mission. I'm not saying overload your brain, overanalyze tactics or anything( though I grew up on strategy games).

I'm saying to learn from mistakes. If some tactic doesn't work anymore, file it for possible use in the future, and move on. Make more mistakes, and learn from them.

But that's just my two cents

Well the problem I had with this, is I go out to Gate of Secrets. There are 6-7 enemies per group. All of them went for Dunkoro, and he could barely keep himself healed and I have 2 other monks helping him. With PS and other damage reduction, he still died. There is no way, in hell, I can stop him from dying from that. It builds up and then everyone starts to die because the monk is so DPed out. Now I haven't tried out my fire ele to stop Dunkoro from getting raped so furiously, so I'm going to be doing that. It's an okay update and a not okay update in various ways.

The only problem I have with this update, is the hero's inability to heal themselves efficently and using the right skills. I cannot control them and control myself at the same time, it's almost impossible for me. Since I cannot do this, I get the shaft? We should have options for certain abilities like hex and condition removals that tells them when and when not to use it or something like that.

I don't want to use a PUG group for every single aspect of the game that's not fun for me. Sometimes other people ruin things because they have the ability to think and have opinions. Now if some of you guys could be stupid AI I'd like partying with you a lot more .

I think the real problem is that people haven't had the need to try. Before, you could bring the worst skills possible in an instance and still roll all the groups like they weren't even there. Now, you actually need to outfit every character to have a real role and have people know what they are doing. Chasing after a running monster is asinine. Snare it somehow and then do your damage. AoE skills actually need some tactics and strategy to be effective. See the monsters in a bad position? Body block them/snare them and then slap down your favorite AoE spell. Bring Aegis/Wards/Warrior-hate too to help the survivability of your party. The game has now progressed to where you can't just grab a tank, two echo nukers, two monks and just roll the groups.

I haven't had a single problem yet in Nightfall regarding the monster AI. I've pretty much hero-way'ed my way through it so far (just me + friend). It's a matter of getting good builds, good tactics and energy management.

Yeah, I dont understand why people are finding it so difficult to cope. If I can barrel through the game with only heroes/henchies with the exception of 3 missions where I used PUGS, then I dont see why so many of you can't just get over this.

And if you don't find the new A.I. fun, then I dont know what to tell you. I guess you only find pushover mindless gameplay to be fun.

ATM these rnemies are just insane, they target most of the time 1 group member and spike him to death, and they'll go to the next target.

But seriously this needs to change, i'l give you a example of how stupid heros have gotten:

i was trying to cap energy prism [ele elite] during a certain point in the battle there were henchman left vs 1 Awakened Grey giant and that ele boss who only used after shock, stoning andglowstone for dmg,
The 2 monks started ressing the 2 dead partymembers and in that time the boss killed them, And after that the rest of the team.

I mean if 6 henchman now can't even kill a ele boss +1 grey giant how doomed are we?

I think most of the problems a lot of people are having is due to exact situations triggering certain unknown behavior in ai, and that includes bugs. I, personally, have had no big problems while henching. But I also have not bought Nightfall. Hopefully things will settle down as Anet hunts down the bugs and makes sure the AI haven't accidentally been buffed a bit too much in certain areas.

But that's just my two cents

Maybe you shouldnt be trying to cap an elite when 2 of your party members are dead and there's still enemies left alive?

I think what he means is that he was going to cap the elite but the battle totally screwed up, the wording is confusing though.

...
PLEASE

the game has been out for less than a week, therefore it is not desriable to complain about a game that is continueally being refined.

firstly though, now mobs go for casters instead, is this a bad thing?
no it shows that the monsters actually have some space between there ears and are not stupid just beat on the warrior.
secondly, they SPIKE targets now, again this demonstrates that they are stupid and do their damage in small little clumps to let you win.
thirdly, enemys kite away from you. Wow this is above some of the stuff i see in Random arenas, monsters that know that damage equals bad and they better move, thats criminal, also if they run to the otherside of the batrle field take adavtage of this and hit some else in a spikeing form of way when there monk is half a mile away.
finally, the heros canceling there spells is a bit eratic and i believe that its more of bug than a update.

as i said before, this game is still in devlopment basically, so instead of
making rant threads such as these, go to the game surgestion forum and make a quietly composed thread there were people can agree/disagree and maybe even a member of anet might and even might think about it for more than 5 mins.

I think when someone says they're "trying to cap an elite DURING a certain point in the battle" means that instead of fighting, they were capping.

For my monk shield of judgement has been in non stop use during NF, if myself or monk hench gets targetted i cast SoJ on them and then enemies get 30 seconds of constant knockdown.

Seems to work pretty well, the monk gets a respite and the damage dealers get to hit people while they're on the floor.

you just have to adapt to the changes.

Well still have not tryed the game (not at home for some weeks) but I see the glitch is that heroes and henchmen Cancel their skills to cast other skills OR to move. This is a bad thing. Of course I encourage Henches to cancel skill and run, but if only the skill has 2+ secs to go and the hench is under 50% hp, otherwise it is only overkill.

Apparently, this will be fixed today (got that from another fourm). Hopefully, this will alleviate some of the frustration people are having with the new AI. It's obviously going to be hard when your monk and nuker henchies aren't doing their jobs.

I dont get peoples problem with the update: Whenever I go out there with my henchies/heroes, in 98% of the cases the monsters attack me (Paragon) or Melonni. So far my only party wipe has come from aggroing 3 groups at once, it is really not much harder than before.

- Xeeron

Thats exactly why I have no trouble at all beating them now that i'm used to it. I always bring a protection monk hero with protective spirit and Reversal of Fortune equipped. And even a hero is smart enough to cast mantra of recall every now and then, and if not, pushing that button every 20 secs isnt that much of a problem. As for monks running away, a running monk isn't healing anyone -> gg!

Simple question: What do you do when you attack a group of foes? Do you attack the warriors first, or the monks first?

Another simple question :

Are you, or any of your party members, level 24-28, with higher AL than most normal members of your class, and do you have 50+ buddies waiting in the background?

didn't read this whole thread. but I know as a caster I would run towards an allied warrior in the battlefield and hope that the foe will start attacking the warrior. Did anyone try this tactic in Nightfall yet? Are the foes not getting off your back? I never Kite away from my party and I don't understand why people do that, you are just dragging the foe away from your teammates who are trying to attack it.

But if it's true that this is how foes are going to act in Nightfall, I'm all for it. More intense fighting and thinking how to handling sticky situations.

I don't really have problem with AI caster/monk running away.
The only problem AI henchman / heroes need to be fix is cancellation of their own skills, should they finish using the skill or not or should they move a bit further to avoid skill cancellation because the target out of the range. They simple don't have 1 or 2 or more step ahead what they should do or they simply don't have any prioritize on what they are doing. When they stuck in the situation that always changes, they just simply cancel their skill and try to do the skill again and cancel it again (always happen in the edge of skill range). ~

Well I know the changes are annoying, but I've learned to deal with it.

I basically just flag my healer Hero and henchmen to hold back, while me and the other hench begin the battle.

Soon as we have aggro I remove the flag so the healer can get to work.

Works most the time for me.

Erm actually things were worse before the update AoE skills were practically totally usless which made Eles and smite monks etc less effective. And have u tried Bulls strike, None shall pass? Or even using sprint to get closer to ur target to hit with a cripple etc. And Warriors have been ignored by Ai for ages its not changed in teh latest update.

Well personally i find they still work very well still if not betta since the update since they now avoid some AoE whihc used to totally wipe them out. And as for not healing themselves well thats perhaps cause there busy triing to get away from teh enemys and no ones helping them by healing them or blocking/stopping the Ai.

Well whats new there :P The only way to get around it - Find some betta teams

my aggro hasnt changed. My heroes / henchies are still doing what they supposed to do, in PvE that is. Nowadays when u play in HoH 9/10 times u will face heroway. And those soft hero targets like monks & caster run like crazy when u attack them. Realistic? yea. Fun? meh, not exactly when u have to chase a hero all over the map.

Now THIS is one of the most annoying problems that guild wars has atm. I had the same thing happen about 6 times the other night up to the point were I was so fed up with it I switched the game off and stop playing it. I've seen this happen on rare occassion before but since the recent updates it is so constant its not even funny any more.

@ ANET: If you do nothing else this month, please fix the problem mentioned above and the problem with heros cancelling their own spells repeatedly. These 2 problems are really really affecting gameplay, to the point where its becoming frustrating as hell.

/rant over

Most of the confusion and anger in this discussion comes from the fact that there was another AI Update on the 31st. Before that date, yes the game was okay. The earlier areas were easy while the later game areas were difficult.

However since the 31st, the AI has had another change in the system. All those arguments "it's easy, used to beat the game 5 days ago with it" don't count anymore. Simply because the facts have changed - again.

So please, before spitting out more "it's easy" or "learn to play lol" wanna be arguments. Go out, test it again. The situation has changed to a point where Protection Monks just don't cut it anymore. It has changed to a point where a 3 monk backline is just not enough. Have you been to the realm of torment after the update? Hm?
You know, every area there has a certain condition as well. For example the domain of secrets with every spell costing you addiotinal 40%. Or another domain where every skill takes an additional 3 seconds to recharge. And don't forget the "heal for less" domain. This adds up to a true nightmarish gaming experience.
You engage into a battle and the first thing that happens there is your eliteskill gets disabled, 50% of your team are now suffering from degen (Phantasm, Bleeding), if you cast anything with more than 3/4 casting time it gets interrupted, enemies do 60 damage a hit and they attack in swarms.

Prot Spirit won't help here, it takes the damage down to maybe 45-50 besides the enemies are spiking everyone at the same time. They even spike through Prot Spirit. It feels like being hit by an insanely well coordinated rangerspike. It is hitting the whole team though instead of just one target. The new damage monitor is fun and frustrating at the same times. Engage a battle, 2 seconds later (yes, 2 seconds) everyone is just dead and you've got like 7 lines of different damage types on you mixed with hexes, degen, snares and interrupts while your Dervish or Warrior is looking puzzled as to what exactly happened, then dies 2 seconds later.

Every battle is a lesson in frustration. If you somehow manage to kill ONE of the mobs there... well well, there are only 342 more enemies on the map for you to wade through (counted with the use of the Lightbringer Title). And don't forget that with every battle your chances to lose are getting higher and higher. It's almost impossible to not have one of your party members drop during a battle. DP can be a real motivation to go on in this spike heavy environment. No really, the odds were against you before and now the odds are even higher. "Fun".

People posting in forums are mostly medium to high skilled people and even they have got severe problems the way the AI now times their attacks. What about the fabled casual player? I've seen many many people allready being very angry and frustrated about the difficulty around the Grand Court - before the update. And it gets only harder after that. What about them? Who should be the target audience of a game? Low to medium? Medium to high? High? Or as it is currently: a handful of uber skilled chosen ones?

Look i don't care for realism (it's allways a lousy argument in a world of dragons and zombies), i don't care if it is done like that in PVP (i might do so once you only fight a mob of 2x8 at max on a map with no one getting an edge), i don't care if it was too easy (simply because it was allready too hard for the majority before).

I DO care about the fun though.
Even if we're just bashing mindless AI, we're making progress. The Update on 31 changed that. We're not making progress. Every battle either takes an eternity (because you've stacked up on defense) or is over in seconds (you're dead). Not everyone has 4+ hours to wade through the hordes. Only very few have the frustration tolerance to deal with constant death.
The vast majority will just hit Alt+F4 and play something else. That is and will never be the intention of A-Net. I'm certain they will change the AI to playable again but i hope it's more sooner than later.

On Domain of Secrets there are 450 enemies. It was brutal.