Nightfall too hard? Spoiler Warning!

Dear OP, I PUGed the whole campaign. I feel your pain. When the other members of your groups don't know what they are doing, it usually ends in failure.

Want goren to not die? Two words, protective spirit, that's how I did the mission quite easily =).

And about the maddok crevice misson, yea, stay under the shadow and the archers can't hit you.

Personally, I thought the campaign was quite easy and enjoyable, except for shiro and his OMG IMPOSSIBLE ODDS LOL --- wipe. Move.

Well I beat the game with hench, except for Gate of Madness... But I must say that the Realm of Torment creatures are crazy compared to the rest in the game

Really, first you have some Kournans, which only have Whirling Defense as a rather good skill imo, after that, you get Margonytes which can hit for some damage, but still go down pretty fast...

And then there are these creatures. They go down slow, do much damage, and if their HP goes below 50%, you gotta kill them fast or they'll duplicate.

Hard? No, not with the right team, but someone doing Guild Wars for the first time might think 'wtf is this? o.O'

The hard part isn't the monsters, but the strenght difference. When everything goes fairly easy, or seems easy, when fighting something that is harder, it looks like it's overpowered, but in reality, the rest was just underpowered. The Drought still is no match compared to Glint imo.

Well look on the birghtside... atleast u get weopons and stuff for completing the game hehe

I personally prefer a game that forces you to put some thought into what you're doing. The majority of the GW playerbase is completely incompetent because they didn't actually need to learn anything or be any good to progress in the previous chapters. Nightfall might change that. Sure, some people will be frustrated that omg they can't just take their favorite mending build into every mission and win for free, but that saves the rest of us some headaches.

[skill]Barrage[/skill] [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] [skill]Favorable Winds[/skill] [skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill] [skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] [skill]Whirling Defense[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

[skill]Barrage[/skill] [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] [skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill] [skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill] [skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] [skill]Whirling Defense[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

[skill]Order of Pain[/skill]

= own PvE.

[skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill]

Seriously, with one warrior and a warrior secondary you can keep it up near-permanently and it owns that part to the face more than it owns one of Alleji's ranger spikes.

*no offense Alleji.

EDIT: Unless you're making your warrior some healing breeze gimp because you think healing prayers is better than tactics. If you're that then I'm glad we have the ward against bad players that is Nightfall.

Maybe you could try standing under the bridge? Arrows require line of sight. Standing under the bridge robs them of that. Then all you have to fight is the 2 bosses who are, in fact, complete pussies. You might lose a henchman running to the bridge, but just signet of rebirth him and he is at full health/70% energy under the bridge ready to fight.

Yeah, this is exactly what we did, not even thinking twice. Worked fine and we didn't lose anyone. In fact, in the middle of killing Hunger, I started thinking "Hey, aren't there a ton of archers above us? Wonder why we're not getting spiked to death..." until I realised we were protected by the bridge beneath their feet.

GW may not have Z-axis, but it sure has obstacles that block ranged attacks! Really, if people just read the skills, and study techniques within the confides of the game mechanics, winning in GW is simply a matter of common sense. If you're lacking that, you probably lose at a lot of games, not just GW.

Hah. Why not use Whirling Def and see the archers spiking the BOSS? ^.^

yep, when I saw that bridge, it was pretty obvious that's what Anet intended us to do. It's akin to putting explosive barrels on a ledge in an FPS game.

Aren't games supposed to be more challenging when you are new to them? Otherwise I wouldn't be here 18 months later.

IMO the players who find NF easy are those who have used their characters for multiple tasks, not just using the same build all the time. My guildmate is not finding much difficulty in figuring the best builds for his Tyrian warrior and heroes. I, on the other hand, have to keep asking him which build to use on my dervish's heroes, as my build-changing experience is very low.

Players new to GW with NF are without that advice unless they belong to a guild with experienced helpful members. With the addition of heroes, they are worse off than anyone who started with Prophecies or Factions. For their heroes to be effective, they need a crash course in skill synergy.

And yes, I remember NES and the joy I felt when they introduced save points and you didn't have to keep repeating the game because you used up all your lives before the end. And again when save anywhere started.

If only every GW player could be as "1337" as you, wouldn't that be swell? Remember, GW was made for the casual gamer, and to the casual gamer, Nightfall is hard as hell. And if GW doesn't cater the the new gamers, and only the old. How exactly will they get new people interested in it? Granted old people are getting bored and moving on, so they need to keep the game semi-geared towards new players. Anet has to replace those who leave or the whole game will tank.

Bringing certain skills should never be a requirement. A lot of people dont know about shields up until they play a warrior. Or have no idea how a interrupt mesmer works. Not everyone knows about all the over thousand skills in the game or has them unlocked or even has the right chapter. Every mission should be doable with basic healing an damage skills. You should make it through faster if you use good combos but forcing certain skills will doom new and average players that just play their class and have no knowledge about the others. A tank couldn´t care less about prot. spirit or guardian, he just takes the healer henchie and wants to have a good time. Like i said in a previous post the knowledge you have to bring to make it anywhere in nightfall alienates new and casual players. It frustrates them to the point of just giving up and shelve the game.
And dont get me started on shiro. That guy is insane. Totally ridiculous.
Prophecies was perfect. You could get everywhere without much trouble except for bonus areas like sorrows furnace, uw and fissure. Why can´t they make nightfall like that?

Because:

1) GWP was the first title of the series and everyone started new from scratch and it has the most time placed into development (apart from writing its engine).

2) Factions and Nightfall are both *expansions* which can be played as standalone chapters but keeping in mind that it must allow those players to be able to link their games together, *expansions* will have to cater to high level play earilier in the storyline as compared to Prophecies (where players were new to GW overall) otherwise our level 20 characters would tear through the lower level missions and get bored even faster. Nightfall partly made up for this with a more comprehensive setup in the Istan to allow players to learn at a more reasonable pace with room to make mistakes and learn from them.

I can understand why new players could be frustrated and there are several points that may lead to this:

1) Nightfall isnt builded for new/causal players in mind: this can be heavily debated since like a coin it works both ways. Heros allows you to play on your own terms provided that you are able enough to use them. Since they use skills you unlocked on your account, naturally more experienced players get the better end of the stick since they would have account that would have close to full unlocks with several Elite skills. But then again, there are several things that help new players as well, and one of them that is overlooked is Hero Skill from Hero skill trainers. Did you know that when you buy Hero skills using Sunspear points, other than unlocking the skill for your account your PvE character that got the skill will also have the skill on your own skill bar as well? What this means is that you have practically close to 15-17 free skills for your primary class which you otherwise will have to buy.

2) Difficulty isnt well scaled? I notice that what happens in Nightfall is that often for most quest or mission, your average build works and the AI of the Heros is able to let you pass through without much difficulty at all. Then there are some bottleneck missions which suddenly give players Difficulty shock symptoms and when they get stuck, they get frustrated and then look around for help in PuG but no one takes them. Personally i feel this "Difficulty Shock Syndrome" is the cause of most of the frustrations that many newer players feel since most of them require you to have highly specific skillset/Hero builds inorder for you to do them with Heros + Hencies only. This perhaps Anet could do better to educate newer players by exposing them to such problems in a less punishing way earilier in the game with more hints (eg. quest that give a skill to kill a mob that would be close to impossible to kill otherwise? hence letting players understand the importance of certain skills) to prepare them for future difficulties.

3) AI and aggro. I got nothing much to say except that this is a balance that Anet will have to make while the playerbase will have to live with.

Playing Nightfall only with Heros and Hencies is possible (Masters on every mission not inclusive of this statement) though you may find that on the last two missions a Necro and Mesmer Hero is a must and you should choose Noru and Masters of Whispers (assumming only Nightfall players) in your earilier decisions should you wish to Hero + Hench them.

Lastly, dont give up and try to learn from your mistakes and think the problems through and give it another go. Eg. The Drought (level 28 ele boss) which can wipe your party with 2 spells. [Remember if it cant cast its spells it wont hurt you-broadhead arrow (factions Elite) but there should be other NF based skills that will work as well.] And good luck all.

Disagree. Prophecies is the easiest and can be henched for all missions. Factions and Nightfall are probably about equal in difficulty.

And bonuses too. This even back when there was no heroes or hench control.

Ok.

Versus the Drought? [skill]Backfire[/skill] So long as you're being spammed with stone daggers, make it hurt. From there, just pile on damage and it collapses, Master reward and all.

Moddok Crevice. Use the bridge or have a mesmer with [skill]Spiritual Pain[/skill]. Alternatively, any marginally decent ele can nuke the rangers down easily. No specific skill needed, though snares help for master.

Dasha Vestibule. [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill]. Beyond that, [skill]Divine Intervention[/skill] and [skill]Judge's Intervention[/skill] can assist, besides just pulling smartly.

Ruins of Morah. Knowing how to aggro, and wands.

Gate of Madness. [skill]Wild Blow[/skill] [skill]Ward Against Melee[/skill] [skill]Empathy[/skill]. The only thing you need for this mission is a renewable source of damage. It's fully possible without wild blow, or spoil victor, or empathy - those just make it easier. Wards give you the advantage that IO becomes much less dangerous, but if you can hold his aggro on a decently armored character, that isn't needed either.

There are very few missions that require a specific skill as a neccessity. All of the ones I listed can be done without any of the mentioned skills, these are just each one of 64 skills that can be brought at a single time that can help.

Yes and bonuses too. I have the protector of tyria title for all core professions.

I'm surprised Moddok Crevice is an issue. I didn't even bother standing under the bridge or bringing Shields Up, I just healed the spikes while my searing nukers cleaned up.

Drought + dazed = gg?

Shiro + Spoil Victor + Wild Blow = gg?

I'm happy with Nightfall's relative difficulty. I'm tired of seeing people in late-game areas who have no clue how to play the game. The way I see it, you can either get frustrated and quit, or you can learn something and beat the mission.

Exactly there lies the problem. Guess what option alot of non hardcore players will choose. I already lost guildies to that problem. Why do you think games today have difficulty settings with an easy setting that allows nearly everyone to enjoy the game and a hard setting for the hardcore? Not everyone has some 1000 of hours to learn all the counters to specific builds. Nightfall is constantly on a hard setting with no way to scale it down for inexperienced or new players.
I think an exagerated difficulty will hurt Guildwars in the long term and lead to a smaller user base wich i find sad since the game is great.

With the different strategies needed to beat the various missions, everyone can say "buh-bye!" to the cookie cutter builds. And that's a good thing. (More Mesmer love for mine! )

Heroes are better than henchies, for people who know how to set them up and use them properly. For new players, learning 4 or 5 professions all at once is probably a bit overwhelming.

I've hench/hero'd my way up to the Grand Court, and haven't found anything that I couldn't do without a little tweak here or there in my tactics & build. The only thing I needed a PUG for was the Bonus on Moddok Crevice tonight, since them runners kept taking off before I could get in range to slow them down (I think they fixed that, tho).

Now, I'm stuck! Tried teh Grand Court Mission with henchies - Got 2 portals capped and then it was a stalemate for about 40 minutes. Meh, no point going on with that. Tried with PUG's (HEY GUYS! DON'T LET THEM CAP THE MIDDLE!!!!!) 5 or 6 times. And so far, not even close. Ahh well, I've got guildies who are almost there & a couple past it, hopefully we can get together and knock the snot out of it.

Nightfall only has one mission where you really need to metagame (Gates of Madness). Every mission can be beaten by bringing a balanced build, which includes some defense and quite a bit of offense. Stance tanks are not the way warriors are meant to be played, IMO. Set them up for damage, with skills like galrath/silverwing, evis-executioners, etc etc. Water eles are much better than the traditional arcane echo-meteor storm archetype. They slow the enemy down tremendously, making it much harder for the big hitters to reach the squishies, deal some decent damage and are just more useful all-around than the ele who spams exhaustion spells until they are bottomed out. You pretty much need an interupter as well, whether it's Mesmer or Ranger doesn't make that much of a difference IMO. The rest is just smart agro control and protecting the squishies.

Most people who complain the missions/quests are too hard are too stubborn in their archetypes of what classes should do (eg stance tanks). That, and their skill bars are probably full of garbage skills like healing breeze. Look at the skill lists, get the most efficient spells and just roll through the missions. Only one mission really requires knowledge of what's in it, and, ergo, a special build for it.

Personally, the hardness of the last few mission are EXTREAMLY refreshing. This isn't a child's game, You need experience and skill, not just *Bash Shiro untill he drops*

Plus, going threw something ahrd is rewarding.

That is the best, and truest part. My favorite missions in Prophecies were the desert missions. Thirsty River took me a few times to beat, and believe me, I was frustrated as hell when I lost. But guess what: when we finally beat it, that was one of the best feelings in the world... true victory.

Ummm... Thirsty is solo-able. Anyhow, I do think that the 2nd to last mission is hard enough without real people that can kite, but everything else is a breeze for a decent build. Of course, new players will get trashed repeatadly in certain missions, but I felt that the difficulty didn't jump much till like end of Vabbi maybe and even then it wasn't that hard. And since when should you expect to jsut pick up a game and own face? Learning curve anyone?

Wow! Nowai!

/rollseyes

The way I see it, Prot Spirit is the most under-used powerful skill in PvE. It lasts a good while, and it makes boss damage negligible. Add that on and a lot of the missions become a lot easier.

As for the learning curve, I know mine and a few other people have very steep learning curves. (we learn fast for those who are confused) That, combined with the fact that game mechanics for most mmorpg work pretty much the same, made GW an easy game the first time I picked it up. But I agree that for people with no prior experience with mmorpg games some basic mechanics might be beyond them. (I know a guy who had 3 of the old major runes on as a hammer war...)

as previous posters already proved, the answer is simply 'no'.

its not too hard. its harder then Factions probably. its harder then most of Prophecies (remember how many failed at THK at first?). It just takes a bit of knowledge and a bit of thinking how to beat the missions.
I 'heroway-ed' 90% of the missions.

I'm going to say a few words, from something I just figured out, and am happy I was intelligent enough to come to the decision. Nightfall is now easy, even in Torment.

Olias Rit Hero.

Actually I feel NF is easier than factions, by a long shot. Sure, the penultimate mission is a bit tricky when it comes to Shiro but he doesn't even use Meditation of the Reaper.

If a build does not work versus an individual...change the build. Use your knowledge of the skills in GW and find a way to counter it. For instance, when I did Rilhon Refuge for the first time my ele got utterly pwnd by The Drought. The second time I took Maelstrom. Now, as we know from reading the skill description, and from fighting Ice Imps in the southern shiverpeaks, Maelstrom interrupts any spells cast within it. Thus, casting Maelstrom on The Drought causes it to be interrupted on pretty much every skill it casts...because it's too bone idle to move out of it. If you're not an ele with maelstrom...that's why you take Zhed!

[skill]Maelstrom[/skill] = PWND Drought

True, and prophecies was not designed for ever changing and adapting builds. Removing the cost from redistributing attribute points was a patch, remember? Roleplay idea in PvE characters was conventional (attribute point spread being part of the development); the patch synced PvE and PvP, as the character development part is now just your available skill set...

Maybe this concept is also a mental barrier for new players. In a RPG your character is usually not just a template that you have to set up individually for each new adventure...

Yup. A new and Nighfall-only player is definitely hampered and has a hard time making his heroes usefull. On the other hand, long time players slap a standard build with Elite on their hero without thinking or further cost. Then they complain that the game is too easy... ^^

Heroes may make you revisit old chapters too. Even if you don't have a main character with a class, you now may need some skills for your hero group. Only the players who have every class and elite skill anyway are not affected, but they would be the ones who needed more content most...

you think the drought are hard, try the quest from Mirza where you, your party, and some veldrunner centaurs go up against waves of a crapload of Margonites, sure i beat it with heroes+hench, but its still hard. well i thought it was.

edit: never thought the drought were hard.

OMG, yeah Battle for Turai's Procession. Was worthy of the Master Difficulty title. So far, the only Master Difficulty quest that I would actually name as such. Well, at least if you're not expecting it...

So the Keeper quests weren't worth [Master]?

I soloed twelve melee margonites in the Turai quest after all my hench died ><

Battle of Turai's, along with Breaking the Broken, seem easiest done by ambushing single groups rather than tanking the whole mass. Then again, a full player group with proper skills (you can only have three tweaked heroes, after all) would probably have little trouble.

Overall, I preferred Troubled Keeper as an interesting quest, though, simply because you can actually fail it. Most of the others are attritionable if needed.

I wouldn't know, haven't made it into any of the Torment areas. I did, after all, say "So far..."

Yeah I figured that was the case but still had to ask just in case you thought those quests from the depths of hell were easy .

Oh, I'm sure there's some pretty difficult missions and quests coming up. Then again, I'd expect there to be toward the end of any game, ya know? Hehe, but yeah, so far, Battle for Turai's Procession is about the hardest thing I've seen, be it quest or mission.