Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
Self sufficiency is what kept rangers out of the major loop. Being self sufficent put them into all ranger groups, and made them where they lacked flexability,due to the refusal of the mainstream ranger player to use their secondaries to be more effective. This is my opinion,not fact. However, the difficulty rangers found in prophecies early times to get into groups that weren't ranger dominant shows that being self sufficient doesn't equal continued or constant success.
Rangers didn't have problems finding groups because they were self sufficient. They had trouble finding groups because people generally wanted a monk to heal, a tank to hold aggro, and a nuker to deal mass aoe damage. The fact that a ranger can hold their own does not make a ranger an unsuitable candidate for a party member. If anything, the fact that a ranger would be less reliant and less of a burden on the monk would make them a better choice. Many people, however, did not choose rangers because, with the exception of a barrage build, they are not considered to be one of the strongest damage dealing classes. With all this said, rangers really didn't have that much trouble finding groups. If there was any reason I ever had trouble getting through with mine, it was because there were so many others out there that I had to compete with.
I would also disagree that a ranger does not need a secondary to be effective. Many times a secondary will not even make that ranger more effective to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
As for my assumption being flawed, I only see that you have struck home the fact that you see the use of secondaries on a ranger as near to useless, save for what was previously discussed and what you have brought to our attention in the previous post. That being said,I still feel,in my opinion, that you think that the use of secondaries by a ranger are unneccessary at the most extreme. I chose to agree to disagree.
I would say that a secondary is not always necessary, but not necessarily useless. When you rely too strongly on a secondary, you stretch your attributes thin, therefore the best use of a secondary on most occaisions is that of a support. If you believe that I am trying to say that secondaries are useless because they are situation dependant, then you are entirely mistaken and I would refer you to my first post where I stated some of the best uses of them. The point I did argue against the most was the effectiveness of weapon spells on a ranger.
14 Nov 2006 at 16:48 - 10
Slightly on-topic and something I've been playing with is Mark of Pain... as a R/N.
MoP center bad guy and spam Barrage... if it's not removed the whole mob falls FAST. -24(MoP), -X(dmg), -5(vamp recurve) over all of the affected in the mob... plus the pet triggering it on top of barrage! Reminds me of the good 'ol monk/mes days outside of Harvest Temple.
I'm still tweaking the build, but the "Painful B/P" looks to have potential!
14 Nov 2006 at 23:47 - 11
I've always used MoP with barrage, ever since Tombs PvE first opened. And yeah, it's exceedingly effective, especially with other barragers, pets, minions all adding to the fray. It wasn't unusual to see two (or even three!) lines of mop damage filling the screen in the two stairwells before the green-dropping bosses at the end. To top it off, this was before the last AI update, which now prevents the initial scatter from AoE damage... which consequently makes MoP even more powerful than before. Been playing my ranger primary through Nightfall, and it's been consisently powerful there as well, though it can be annoying to chase the initial target once it finally "realizes" it's killing off its group. Since MoP is extraordinarily powerful in barrage/minion/pet situations (the more hits, no matter how weak, the merrier), I've always packed it with my necro as well.
Typically I run the same bar as I do in tombs: Charm and Comfort, MoP, Tiger's/Barrage, Throw Dirt, Dust Trap, Barbed Trap. Since you're running necro second anyway, you can always throw a few spare points in Death and replace one of the traps with Rotting Flesh, which was always one of my favorite spells for pulling mobs with... though at 15 energy, and the 10 for mop, you won't be able to spam Tiger's quite as freely.
15 Nov 2006 at 04:51 - 12
Wouldn't MoP be more suited with stuff like Quick Shot and Called shot? I can see it with Barrage due to 1s recharge, but Quick Shot/Needling Shot would be a bit more devastating.
15 Nov 2006 at 07:27 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Mad
Why would I lie about a test everybody can do? I notice you obviously didn't.
Yes I hit 2 targets at the same time - that's how barrage works and do 47 damage on one dummie, 44 on the other one. Yes both have the same armor: just look at where the screenshot was taken. And yes as I said, with 0 in channeling, splinter adds 5 damage to adjacent foes. If it had worked with both arrows then both would have added 5 damage to their adjacent foes (well the one in this case) so we'd have had 2 times 5 damage. But that's not how it works, as you can see in the pic.
Please, next time keep personal attacks away and test the skills you're talking about.
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I just completed my tests, not even 10 minutes ago,and here are my findings,my esteemed colleague. In the following pictures,it is obvious that the target, is centered, yet the spread of the arrows shot from barrage go toward 3 far spread targets.
Upon impact, the spell effect is upon ALL arrows involved in the initial barrage release. Shall we still continue saying that the two skills do not work? There is your proof!
MoP is used in Ranger spike builds, but in that case, their is usually a necro involved.
[skill=card]Order of Pain[/skill][skill=card]Mark of Pain[/skill][skill=card]Order of the Vampire[/skill]
These are customarily involved in the spike build of a B/P Ranger team, not to mention the Ranger spirits that are used.
[skill=card]Order of Pain[/skill][skill=card]Mark of Pain[/skill][skill=card]Order of the Vampire[/skill][skill=card]Read the Wind[/skill][skill=card]Winnowing[/skill][skill=card]Favorable Winds[/skill]
These are favored in ranger spike builds, however, spike team builds depend on the primary ranger function, and as such, plays to the rangers strengths.
The secondary of a ranger, or a character for that matter, should be able to cover the character's weaknesses.
For example, if a R/W wants to play a melee role, what are his/her options?
We have seen necro skills emerge as a force in the touch ranger build, but that is manipulating the secondary by using a Primary attribute to make a powerful, team oriented character build.
IMHO, rangers are so team oriented that them travelling alone, farming solo, or even not getting involved in team settings would strike me as unnatural and abit odd.
What ranger build,involving the secondary or not, isn't team oriented?
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
You attacked the middle target. Barrage hit 3 targets. If it affected all the arrows, you should see 4x "-26", two as the middle target hits all those around it, and one for each of the side targets. You see only 2x "-26", and they are over the side targets. Your splinter affected only the middle target. Methinks you proved yourself wrong...
In the pic marked gw003, the arrows strikes the middle target, yet the arrow on the far left, strikes another dummy as well as the dummy to the right of the middle target.
Upon seeing that, the spell effect has struck the target dummy on the far left, which is neither near the primary target nor even in the range of the spelled arrow in order for it to be considered the natural reaction of said spell.
That being stated, and shown in that pic, how have I proven myself anything but right?
15 Nov 2006 at 07:53 - 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
I just completed my tests, not even 10 minutes ago,and here are my findings,my esteemed colleague. In the following pictures,it is obvious that the target, is centered, yet the spread of the arrows shot from barrage go toward 3 far spread targets.
Upon impact, the spell effect is upon ALL arrows involved in the initial barrage release. Shall we still continue saying that the two skills do not work? There is your proof!
You attacked the middle target. Barrage hit 3 targets. If it affected all the arrows, you should see 4x "-26", two as the middle target hits all those around it, and one for each of the side targets. You see only 2x "-26", and they are over the side targets. Your splinter affected only the middle target. Methinks you proved yourself wrong...
15 Nov 2006 at 10:21 - 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Highwind
Wouldn't MoP be more suited with stuff like Quick Shot and Called shot? I can see it with Barrage due to 1s recharge, but Quick Shot/Needling Shot would be a bit more devastating.
One of the added beauties of MoP is that you can spread the hex on multiple targets and multiply the damage if you're using Barrage. So, say in Tombs, you have three adjacent grasps (which is not at all unusual) and hex them all separately with MoP; theoretically you'd have three times the fun with just one burst of Barrage... not that you'd ever see enough people carrying MoP to ever see this happen. More importantly, Barrage is more preferably in a team setting because you don't have to call out which target is hexed; your party members (say, in a B/P party) will most likely be automatically hitting it because of the spread fire of Barrage, if the mob is lined up right.
15 Nov 2006 at 14:49 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
In the pic marked gw003, the arrows strikes the middle target, yet the arrow on the far left, strikes another dummy as well as the dummy to the right of the middle target.
Upon seeing that, the spell effect has struck the target dummy on the far left, which is neither near the primary target nor even in the range of the spelled arrow in order for it to be considered the natural reaction of said spell.
That being stated, and shown in that pic, how have I proven myself anything but right?
You actually don't understand the skill you're talking about. Read again the description of Splinter Weapon: it adds extra damage to ALL THE ADJACENT FOES of your next attack. As explained by Dr Strangelove, here is what it would do if it worked with barrage:
You hit, say, 4 targets with barrage. If you were right, you should see above the targets the following damage:
Target..............................1............. 2.............3.............4
Barrage (random numbers)....44...........47...........43.......... ..40
Splinter on target 1.............0.............26...........26....... .....26
Splinter on target 2.............26............0............26....... .....26
Splinter on target 3.............26............26...........0........ .....26
Splinter on target 4.............26............26...........26....... .....0
On your pic I see only 1 "26 damage" from splinter above every target, when it should be, if you were right, 1 per other arrow of barrage. So no, splinter doesn't work with barrage (as in: with all the arrows of barrage: just with the first one).
15 Nov 2006 at 16:35 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
I just completed my tests, not even 10 minutes ago,and here are my findings,my esteemed colleague. In the following pictures,it is obvious that the target, is centered, yet the spread of the arrows shot from barrage go toward 3 far spread targets.
Upon impact, the spell effect is upon ALL arrows involved in the initial barrage release. Shall we still continue saying that the two skills do not work? There is your proof!
What others have been trying to tell you that you have not understood is that since Splinter Weapon does +26 damage to each adjacent foe, each arrow from barrage would do an additional +26 to each target. Instead, there is only one +26 done to each target, even though you theoretically should have had 3 sets of +26 when you hit 3 targets.
15 Nov 2006 at 19:49 - 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Mad
You actually don't understand the skill you're talking about. Read again the description of Splinter Shot: it adds extra damage to ALL THE ADJACENT FOES of your next attack. As explained by Dr Strangelove, here is what it would do if it worked with barrage:
You hit, say, 4 targets with barrage. If you were right, you should see above the targets the following damage:
Target..............................1............. 2.............3.............4
Barrage (random numbers)....44...........47...........43.......... ..40
Splinter on target 1.............0.............26...........26....... .....26
Splinter on target 2.............26............0............26....... .....26
Splinter on target 3.............26............26...........0........ .....26
Splinter on target 4.............26............26...........26....... .....0
On your pic I see only 1 "26 damage" from splinter above every target, when it should be, if you were right, 1 per other arrow of barrage. So no, splinter doesn't work with barrage (as in: with all the arrows of barrage: just with the first one).
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We are discussing Barrage with Spilintered Weapon...the ritualist skill.
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
What others have been trying to tell you that you have not understood is that since Splinter Weapon does +26 damage to each adjacent foe, each arrow from barrage would do an additional +26 to each target. Instead, there is only one +26 done to each target, even though you theoretically should have had 3 sets of +26 when you hit 3 targets.
I'm tired of arguing a point that you have really refused to see, but I'll try once more.
In pic gw003, the use of Barrage with Splintered Weapon, not splinter shot, is used on the dummy in the very center of the training circle. If I used Barrage, and it only worked on the primary target, the center dummy, then the only place the spell would effect would be next to that same dummy,correct?
Then, if I am wrong, explain the reason that the spell effected the dummy on the outer ring of the training circle? It has the spell effect on it as well as the damage numbers over it.Also, the signs of impact from the arrow are obvious, if not a second number being visible in my picture.
My point is that to the statement that is"Barrage+Splintered Weapon only effects the primary arrow fired(The centered arrow), thus only effecting the center target and those near to that target!", is false.
However, that was not the point of this thread. I wanted to discuss applications of secondaries in the case of rangers. Can we get back to that, and leave this conversation for another thread, like the ones talking about skill combinations that should work, but don't.
15 Nov 2006 at 20:13 - 19
I was talking about splinter weapon, of course: that was just a lapsus: the description of the skill I gave was the description of splinter weapon. Sorry for the confusion, I'm going to edit my post to fix that.
I've not much to say, if you refuse to be objective and try to understand how the skill works, no one can help you. You've just proven that actually skills affecting the next attack are not necessarilly triggered by the arrow striking your target but by the first arrow striking a target (out of the 6 possible targets).
And please don't ask us not to post you're wrong because it would be off-topic when you keep posting about that as well.
EDIT - Oh and here is another counter-example of the theory "splinter is triggered by all the foes adjacent to a foes hit by one of the arrows of barrage": proof
15 Nov 2006 at 21:38 - 20
*sigh* I think what you have failed to realize is that your pics show that you spent 1 second and 10 energy on a weapon spell that only did +26 damage to 2 targets when barrage hit 3. If you would have used Barrage again, it would take 2 seconds, do more damage, and cost maybe 3 energy, depending on your level of expertise. To apply this to the origional topic at hand, ritualist secondary with weapon spells is simply a bad idea. If you want to use it for the rez or draw spirit, go for it, but don't waste your time with weapon spells.
15 Nov 2006 at 23:41 - 21
I use Brutal Weapon, works pretty well.
Just to echo the evidence: Splinter Weap only does its damage once during Barrage, not for each arrow. I actually tested it with Dual Shot & Fork Arrow, and it still only splashed its damage once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
In pic gw003, the use of Barrage with Splintered Weapon, not splinter shot, is used on the dummy in the very center of the training circle. If I used Barrage, and it only worked on the primary target, the center dummy, then the only place the spell would effect would be next to that same dummy,correct?
Splinter triggers on the first arrow to hit. It is pretty clear that Splinter triggered off the dummy the 2nd from the left (it's closest to you, so was the first arrow to hit). This explains why the target in the center was hit with Splinter (and yet the 2nd from the left was not).
16 Nov 2006 at 03:33 - 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollerith
Splinter triggers on the first arrow to hit. It is pretty clear that Splinter triggered off the dummy the 2nd from the left (it's closest to you, so was the first arrow to hit). This explains why the target in the center was hit with Splinter (and yet the 2nd from the left was not).
Which pic are you refering to? Gw003? In that pic the primary target is the center dummy, directly in the center of the AoE training ring.So,if I am understanding what you said, which I am not sure that I do, it would be the conclusion that my aim was off and that the first arrow to hit would cause the spell to do no damage to the center.
Yet, in the previously named pic, the damage effect is obviously depicted on the center dummy, the adjacent dummies to the opposite sides, as well as the dummy on the outer left edge of the circle.
If I am seeing correctly, then that would mean that more than 1 arrow connected to a target, as well as the spell effect being passed to all the arrows in question. If this is not what you see, then let's hypothesize about why the furthest dummy out at the edge of the circle was effected by the splintering spell, as well as the 2 dummies closest to my primary target.
What you are saying is that even though my target was the center dummy, the effect of the spell is directly affected by which arrow strikes first? From closer study of the pics, as well as the new pic, gw012, showing the Barrage arrows in mid flight, that show that I indeed hit the closer dummy first, before the impact of my primary target, that made the spell react on the outside edge as well as the adjacent dummy in the center, This being the case, the splinter spell is negated on all other arrows in mid flight...
Making the thought of splintered weapon working on all arrows to be wrong, and thus, making my theory on this combination to also be flaud. But what if all the arrows connect simultaneously? Don't think about that...
Anyway, can we get to other secondaries besides Ritualist...
16 Nov 2006 at 04:58 - 23
I tried with Dual Shot & Forked Arrow, and Splinter only triggered once each time, not twice.
Next 2ndary for me is the N - using Mark of Pain with Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Quick Shot, and Savage. MoP triggers twice off Dual Shot & Forked?
16 Nov 2006 at 07:14 - 24
Most likely, it's 2 arrows.
I got the spare change to try it out, I'll check soon.
16 Nov 2006 at 12:02 - 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollerith
I tried with Dual Shot & Forked Arrow, and Splinter only triggered once each time, not twice.
Next 2ndary for me is the N - using Mark of Pain with Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Quick Shot, and Savage. MoP triggers twice off Dual Shot & Forked?
I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT!!!!!  I gotta change my build!! 
17 Nov 2006 at 03:45 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollerith
I tried with Dual Shot & Forked Arrow, and Splinter only triggered once each time, not twice.
Next 2ndary for me is the N - using Mark of Pain with Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Quick Shot, and Savage. MoP triggers twice off Dual Shot & Forked?
Dual Shot and Forked both trigger MoP twice. It's a nice little AoE bomb, and doesn't always cause scatter anymore. You can even use Ignite Arrows, MoP and Dual shot cause Ignite Arrows doesn't turn your base damage to fire. So you get the Double MoP damage + the double Ignite Damage + what ever damage you deal to your target.
17 Nov 2006 at 04:29 - 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Dual Shot and Forked both trigger MoP twice. It's a nice little AoE bomb, and doesn't always cause scatter anymore. You can even use Ignite Arrows, MoP and Dual shot cause Ignite Arrows doesn't turn your base damage to fire. So you get the Double MoP damage + the double Ignite Damage + what ever damage you deal to your target.
QFT
It also is an excellent skill to have with a MM in your group. Many MM are integrating MoP back into their builds since the last AI update for this reason.
18 Nov 2006 at 05:49 - 28
I once had a build where I used both SS and MoP. SS was used on the near target, while MoP was used on the primary target. It was a solid combo in PvE in previous times,but now I'm not so sure. Of course, it was with my E/N, so not as potent as a primary necro,but still was quite effective in mob aggro scenarios.
[skill=big]Mark of Pain[/skill]
Is this as effective as it can be when combined with traditional ranger builds?
It worked great when Aoe nukers were without a champion spell,and you didn't want to break aggro.
Any other spells in the necro skill listings of interest? 
18 Nov 2006 at 13:22 - 29
I don't deny the usefullness of a necro in a team with rangers, however I definitely think rangers generally shouldn't use spells. Of course there are a few exceptions: Judge's Insight is deadly against skelettons, brutal weapon is acceptable, so are the conjure xxx spells, etc. However, remember rangers without expertise (and of course expertise don't work with spells) are pretty bad energy-wise. They have only 3 pips of regen when most of the classes have 4, and they can't get an energy bonus from their weapons as mages can with a staff, except at most the 5 energy from a bow (but then you gotta ask yourself if the benefits from the spell are worth the 15% extra damage from your weapon mod you lose and the attribute points you gotta spend in the element).
19 Nov 2006 at 10:43 - 30
Does a zealous bow while using Barrage make for greater energy regen when you are hitting multiple targets?
I believe so,but I am asking if their is anyone who definitely knows if this works in this manner. If it does,then it may be your battery to power certain builds.
19 Nov 2006 at 11:19 - 31
My guildies have done tests before, and it seems to depend on the moment it hits. Dual shot doesn't work, but barrage does work with splinter if the two targets are the exact same distance away from you and you hit at the same time.
This means that, yes, it could work, but, no, it's not useful at all.
/A = Signet of Malice, Dash (I replaced my old distortion slot with this), Shadow of Haste.
19 Nov 2006 at 15:07 - 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
Does a zealous bow while using Barrage make for greater energy regen when you are hitting multiple targets?
I believe so,but I am asking if their is anyone who definitely knows if this works in this manner. If it does,then it may be your battery to power certain builds.
Effects from bow mods work on every arrow from any skill, so yes, a zealous string gives back energy from every hit just like Vamp strings do as well (yet another reason vamo > sundering). However, since expertise makes barrage so affordable, I don't think that zealous is really necessary, but I have a personal vias against zealous mods on bows and will leave it at that. 
20 Nov 2006 at 05:02 - 33
MoP works about as well as brutal weapon (as far as energy concerns anyway) when you use Prepared Shot. Perpared shot gives a very decent energy recovery, and makes up for expertise not affecting those types of spells...
That said, I'd still rather have a primary necro tossing spells about.
20 Nov 2006 at 06:49 - 34
With the ability to have customized henchies (heroes), it's a LOT easier to have other characters in your team built to compliment your build, so doing things like using spell buffs can be left to the classes that do them best. This is part of the reason that I see secondaries that provide things like a hard rez or an IAS as often being a better choice.
20 Nov 2006 at 14:55 - 35
/Warrior: IAS, Tactics Based Shouts, Hammer Weilding Thumper
/Monk: Hard Rez, Condition Removal, Hex Removal, Judges Insight
/Necro: Condition Removal, Corpse Eating, Blood Rit, Touch Ranger
/Mesmer: Inspiration Based Stances, Distortion, Hex Removal, Enchantment Removal, Improved Condition Pressure, Fragility
/Ele: Conjures, Mark of Rodgort (which isn't hardly as bad as it used to be), Earth Based Defense (a Ward or an Armor isn't hard to toss into a build)
/Assassin: Way of the Fox, Sigent of Malice, Teleportation, Dagger Weilding Ranger
/Rit: Hard Rez, Condition Removal, Oath Shot Spirit Spam, Weapon Spells
/Paragon: Command Based Shouts, Hard Rez, Condition Removal, Hex Removal
/Dervish: Ebon Dust Aura, Enchantment Removal
Those are just the really obvious ones.
And [email protected] huge argument over Splinter Weapon. Splinter Weapon is good, but it certainly does not activate on EVERY arrow. That's like... really obvious when you use it.
20 Nov 2006 at 16:59 - 36
Monk-I have a resuable res. Beastmaster's done need a secondary.
Or warrior, for when I'm bored. I can bring a sword and shield to the table, and contary to what most people think, it's not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out.
21 Nov 2006 at 16:01 - 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
My guildies have done tests before, and it seems to depend on the moment it hits. Dual shot doesn't work, but barrage does work with splinter if the two targets are the exact same distance away from you and you hit at the same time.
Quoted for great justice.
21 Nov 2006 at 18:48 - 38
Anecdotal evidence for great justice? How about replicating those tests and taking screenshots?
21 Nov 2006 at 19:32 - 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollerith
Anecdotal evidence for great justice? How about replicating those tests and taking screenshots?
I was unable to reproduce that and confirm those tests. Anyway, even if it's true, being at the very same distance from 2 tagets (how do you do that? Do you count the pixels?) is almost impossible with practice targets, so imagine with moving foes in a live environement.
22 Nov 2006 at 08:29 - 40
Quote:
/Dervish: Ebon Dust Aura, Enchantment Removal
I'm making an Ebon Dust Aura build (planning on using ebon bow string) when my ranger hits 20 because I heart conditions.
My Ebon Dust Aura assassin proved less useful than I think the Ranger will hehe.
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. These are just a couple of examples of a ritualist secondary in use.
