Bears, could they be the best pet under certain circumstances?

Craze Horse

Craze Horse

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Step on Puppies [PuP]

R/

I know what your probably thinking. Bears aren't that great because of their Brutal Mauling skill. That is, before nightfall came out. Now with paragons there are certain shouts such as burning anthem or go for the eyes that are triggered with an attack skill.

Bears are the only pets that technically use an attack skill. As far as I know when you use a pet shout, the next time the pet attacks that effect is applied.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't there be a situational advantage with a bear as a pet over any other pet? Comments appreciated

Shinto Sharingan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

Zealots of Shiverpeak

W/

WOW...i never would have thought of that! Can you (or someone with a bear) test this?

Captain Arne Is PRO

Captain Arne Is PRO

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Bears are also the best pet when fighting something with spells such as SS, as it attacks slowest due to Brutal Mauling. :P

So YES, in some cercumstances the slow bear prevails.

Thorondor Port

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

British Columbia

W/

you had better find these necros casting SS on pets, and make sure they uninstall.

Dire White Tiger ftw

Detraya fullvear

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

I l Power Overwhelming I l [HaX]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor Port
you had better find these necros casting SS on pets, and make sure they uninstall.

Dire White Tiger ftw sure, because putting ss on a pet that cant stop attacking is a horriable idea!

Shadis

Shadis

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

That's actually very interesting. It didn't even cross my mind either.

Anger Problems

Anger Problems

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

W/

You could fix its attack speed with an enemy Mesmer using Soothing Images.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger Problems
You could fix its attack speed with an enemy Mesmer using Soothing Images. Soothing Images only prevents the building of adrenaline.

Reikai

Reikai

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

R/

it doesn't trigger. Its been tested.

Craze Horse

Craze Horse

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Step on Puppies [PuP]

R/

Alright, thats what I needed to know. Thank you Reikai.

Jay Shrine

Jay Shrine

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

R/Mo

What about the Jahai Rat? that uses a skill so it cant be diseased,dno if they use it often or if its just a sort of power they mantain,im not that far into Nightfall,can someone check it out?

Sir Mad

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

R/

Actually I know a weird mage who use to bring his pet bear most of the time - foes with interupts will try to interupt brutal mauling instead of his spells. I wouldn't do that, but erm... bears are not completely useless compared to other pets (notice the [i] tag warping "completely").

sister morphyne

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2006

CROW

R/Mo

I dont want to start a fight with you boys but has anyone apart from me actually ever tested the bear debate on DPS?

Take a stopwatch, get a bear and any other pet, go to the test grounds at Kamadan or the Isles and time the two on the same target.

Bears rule

XvArchonvX

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sister morphyne
I dont want to start a fight with you boys but has anyone apart from me actually ever tested the bear debate on DPS?

Take a stopwatch, get a bear and any other pet, go to the test grounds at Kamadan or the Isles and time the two on the same target.

Bears rule I haven't tested it personally, but Jenosavel and Epinephrine did a pretty thorough job lookin into it, so I feel confident in taking their word for it.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=89491

Raithgason

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Demi God Of Apocallypse [Demi]

R/

Havent tested the bears dps for myself. But this idea of the bear and the paragon chant seems cool. I'll give it a try. Thanks agian

Program Ftw

Program Ftw

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

Carebear Club [wuv]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor Port
you had better find these necros casting SS on pets, and make sure they uninstall.
Putting SS on a pet is common among Necro's that know what they are doing, a pet will follow its team, it wont stop attacking, and the monk won't normally remove a hex from a pet, do you understand now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor Port
Dire White Tiger ftw Join the club.

Thanks,
Program~

Sir Mad

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sister morphyne
*sigh*

like I said, get a stopwatch, load up your normal pet attack skills, do the same for the comparative pet, sic them sequentially on the same target and check out the result......

Nothing like a good field test.....
Actually Jenosavel and Epinephrine ran several tests to make sure of that - I'm quoting a pragraph of the guide:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel and Epinephrine
(5) The speed results are from two tests, the first was timing 100 strikes - if you allow for a miscount of up to 1 strike in either direction you get an estimate of the error. The error on this testing resulted in a range of ~2.12-2.17 for each pet type (excepting the bear, which was 2.60-2.62); the other test was a count of strikes over 5 minutes, resulting in 141 strikes mostly, but once or twice on a species I'd get 140. 300seconds/141strikes = 2.13; 300seconds/140 strikes=2.14, it has a smaller error due to the longer period, say 2.12-2.15 or so, adding a strike in either direction. That's pretty much the same range. Estimating experimental error and measurement error isn't easy. I suspect we're talking a miscount of +/- 1 though. The bear counted 115 attacks over 300 seconds, so 2.59-2.63 seems like a very safe estimate of its attack speed. Animals were tested at level 5 and level 20, to ensure speed stayed the same. The sole creature that varied was the Moa/Strider, which begins at level 3 with an attack period of ~1.6 seconds, but drops from there, reaching 2.14 seconds by level 17.

XvArchonvX

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sister morphyne
*sigh*

like I said, get a stopwatch, load up your normal pet attack skills, do the same for the comparative pet, sic them sequentially on the same target and check out the result......

Nothing like a good field test..... It's been tested thoroughly and as a result has been made the pet guide for Guru:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ide-id1575.php


And you can quote the reasoning for bears' lesser damage output:
"The Bear's brutal mauling slows it's attack speed, but does not add any damage."
The numbers that back this up are here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...e-id1575.php#5

This is what Sir Mad posted, but also has a handy little chart showing their results as well.

Silk Weaver

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Hong Kong

Romantically Lethal [RoLe]

R/Mo

Dire White Tiger ftw.

Mine's called Doggie ^^

Chewbacca Defense

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

667 Neighbour of the Beast

Ttgr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detraya fullvear
sure, because putting ss on a pet that cant stop attacking is a horriable idea! This is a great idea. Casting SS on Flesh Golems or Pets with Reckless Haste or blind. They just can't stop attacking, so draw the Golem into a crowd and watch all the numbers fly!

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craze Horse
Now with paragons there are certain shouts such as burning anthem or go for the eyes that are triggered with an attack skill.

Bears are the only pets that technically use an attack skill...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't there be a situational advantage with a bear as a pet over any other pet? Comments appreciated
Correct, bears using Brutal Mauling do trigger Anthem of Flame.

Quote: Originally Posted by Reikai it doesn't trigger. Its been tested. Umm, it did when testing was done. Brutal Mauling triggers any paragon skill that triggers on attack skills, or at least it did. Haven't checked today, but assuming it hasn't changed, it does work.

Quote: Originally Posted by Anger Problems You could fix its attack speed with an enemy Mesmer using Soothing Images. Also true, but hard to arrange

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Soothing Images only prevents the building of adrenaline. Precisely, and testing has shown that Brutal Mauling is an adrenaline skill, with a 4 adrenaline cost. Hence why the bear uses it every fourth swing - a bear in the presence of Infuriating Heat for example uses it every second swing, dropping DPS even further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Shrine
What about the Jahai Rat? that uses a skill so it cant be diseased,dno if they use it often or if its just a sort of power they mantain,im not that far into Nightfall,can someone check it out? This is pretty much accepted to be the same type of rumour as the poisonous spider rumour. I have had a Jahai rat for a while now myself to observe it, and have never seen it use a skill, and it has been tested by regular wiki users. While you cannot prove something false by not observing it (it may just be really rare) no documentation of it ever having occurred exists. If I said that sometimes, if you spin around fast, the moon looks like a big bagel it would be just as untestable - you could do it for thousands of nights with no success, and I could just reply that it is REALLY uncommon.

As to the OP's title statement, yes, as a result of this ability, the bear is the best pet in a very narrow sense, for some situations. It however is also the worst in some ways.

Some have become very semantic, saying that the attack rate of the bear is no different, and that it is only the DPS that suffers. I would like to respond to that by asking them to count the number of attacks that a bear performs - it may be equally semantic, but if every 4th attack is a slow Brutal Mauling, the number of attacks actually performed is decreased over time, thus attack rate, being defined as attacks/unit time is in fact lower, provided the bear is building adrenaline and using its skill.

A_Muppet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

What amazes me is that they STILL haven't removed the brutal mauling skill-it's utterly useless and only hinders it.

Cybah

Cybah

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Europe

Guardians Of Eternal Sands [GoeS]

W/

bump because my other thread got closed.

NEW TOPIC: PLEASE CHANGE BEARS, THEY NEED TO BE LIKE ALL OTHER PETS

Chewbacca Defense

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

667 Neighbour of the Beast

Ttgr

Not sure if this is confirmed or not, but another potential advantage of Bears is that fact that they are the largest pet and thus, could be more effective at body blocking.

Cathode_Reborn

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

[skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill]

Read the description. It's the next attack, not attack skill. When this skill is activated, the next attack will be affected and the skill will end. With that being said, a Bear's brutal mauling isn't needed for this skill to work, any pet will do.

As for this actually making a pet hit criticals, didn't seem to work when I tried it, but it was a quick test.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
[skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill]

Read the description. It's the next attack, not attack skill. When this skill is activated, the next attack will be affected and the skill will end. With that being said, a Bear's brutal mauling isn't needed for this skill to work, any pet will do.

As for this actually making a pet hit criticals, didn't seem to work when I tried it, but it was a quick test. Read [skill]Anthem of Flame[/skill], or [skill]Anthem of Envy[/skill], or [skill]Crippling Anthem[/skill].

And the reason the skill didn't seem to make pets critical is that pet criticals don't work like other crits. They don't do max damage * 1.4142, they just do their damage *1.4142, so it's not immediately obvious, unless you graph many of them.