Concept Class-The Adroit

Concept Class by Ryuken #3

Concept Class: The Adroit

Short History: Hidden in their compact labs, they study the usage and ideals of minerals. Many people do not know of their existence or their purpose. Even the very few people, who know of them, think of their doing as child play. Nevertheless, they do not know that these unique and extremely educated people will come across the essence of destruction itself. They are the Alchemists.

These Alchemists were so independent of the common folk, that they slowly began making a religion of themselves. They thought that combining the right mixture of elements could cause immortality. The headmaster of these Alchemists gave them a challenge, which was that everyone was from now on to combine any elements they could find and test subjects were to drink it.

After more than ten years passed, still nothing had become of the fortune of immortality, only death. However, two very special Alchemists thought to be the best of the best, finally came with the potion that everyone has been seeking. That potion was intensely hard to make. Therefore could only produce minimal quantity. They have said that it would take another five years until the substance could be more cleverly reproduced. Even though this substance wasn’t quite ready, these Alchemists certified that the combination of Sulfur, Charcoal, and Saltpeter is a mystical creation, and let out small wondrous sparks.

Still the King was unhappy with the ordeal, but he knew that he was at the end of his days and only wanted to livelonger and nothing else. Therefore, he beckoned for the potion and drank it. Beats of sweat began to circulate over the king’s forehead, and once the small drop of powder reached the soft tongue, something horribly happened.

His whole head exploded into pieces, and the creators were banished and sentenced to execution. Still, most people began to wonder, if that element were to be used in the right way, it could act as a powerful tool. After countless of failed experiments to control this substance, they finally created the right form to do so. It was then called the firearm.

The Alchemist decided then, that the time of being an Alchemist is over, and a new era of an Adroit has awakened. As their goal is to prove the unethical people that, an Alchemist is much more than what they predicted. Then the mountainous stone stummit dwarves came across the place were the alchemists studied and stole all of their experiments…including the gun-powder. It was then that these dwarves learned how to use them, and slowly Tyria is learning about this substance, and began to steal it for themselves.
(Definition of the Word Adroit; Someone who is skillful, clever, adept, and dexterous.)


Two new hexes are would be introduced for the Adroit.
a)Fear= Fear is a hex which makes the enemy run in fear for a limited time
b) Baffled= an effect which temporarily blurs your whole screen and does –3 health degeneration. (Remember mission 2 in Night Fall?)


1) Overall Basis of the Adroit: The Adroit is a range attacker, who specializes in the art of simple medieval type guns and basic firearms. Because they are Alchemists they also know how to quickly brew simple potions, which can enhance your gun, stats, and can even deal some damage. Lastly, because Adroits like to be manipulative, they are masters of delusion and can manipulate stats, and hexes to their liking.

2) Main Weapon Of the Adroit: the main weapon will be the gun. It will act as a one-handed weapon, and your off-handed hand will be free.

-ATTRIBUTE DESCRIPTION-

-Gun Mastery- The most common question that will come up in this gun topic is “Guns simply wouldn’t fit into a medieval game like guild wars.” I understand how you might be right about this; however, I would never recommend a concept class if it simply couldn’t happen. Moreover, this is proving that guns DID exist in medieval times http://www.castles-of-britain.com/castle36.htm. Now back to the topic: although you could theoretically say that bows are not nearly as effective as guns, this theory could be wrong with the very first handheld guns. As these early guns tended to be very unstable, the powder would go off for no apparent reason. This is what I would put into the class to differ them from the bows. From how looks go, I would probably want them to be similar to this type http://www.a2armory.com/images/bests...lunderbuss.jpg

-Fire Arm- By firearm I don’t mean mechanical robots or turrets etc (Trying to make it as realistic as possible). I really mean the very basic and simple firearm such as cannons and using the powder as the bombs. Most of the skills will be very gunpowder based.

-Alchemy- This attribute will need an ingredient. However, so I don’t make this class all too complicated, there will only be four ingredients. These ingredients will randomly drop by ALL monsters. This will require you to pick up the ingredient, and then it will be received in the inventory section. You may buy different potions from the skill trainer, but you cannot activate the potion as if it were a skill. Instead, a small window will appear in combat, and it will list all the potions you currently have. From there, you pick your potion then drop it on the ground. To activate it, you need to click on the potion and you will receive its effects. The reason why I did that is so other party members can also pick it up. How do you “make” a potion? You can make the potion by clicking the potion you want to make in the skills list, (under alchemy section) then it will say the required ingredients, and if you have the right amount then it will be shown as green, if not then it will show as gray. You can see what ingredients it needs at the description section. NOTE: that you can only drop 1..2..3..4 potions at a time. And once that number is over you’ll face a cool-down of 60..50..40..30 seconds. And you can only make 5..8..12..15..18 potions.

-Delusion- Delusion deals with hexes from enemies/party members and simply manipulating them. Enchants, and degeneration is included in this to this topic. Besides, from manipulating, you will also have attacks in which you can gain +health +energy and is meant to be more of that extra push to win a fight. Like tactics for warrior or energy storage for elementalists.



Stats of the Adroit
Health=500
Energy=35
Energy Regeneration +4

Some Images of how the armor would look like (not final)


Head Armor=Goggles
http://www.final-fantasy.it/cloud_goggles_2.jpg


Body Armor= (look only at the pirate in the middle, it’s his torso and mantle look that I would want the Adroit to look like)
http://www.mables.com/halloween/prod...te-costume.jpg

Hand Armor=
http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/a9/2c/03_2.JPG

Leg Armor=
http://www.costumeshopper.com/Mercha...8634-58633.jpg

Foot Armor=
http://www.houseofanoria.com/boots_h...g_bootcvr4.jpg


Now that I am done, talking about the basic information of the Adroit, it is time for the skills. Please Note that the skills, which I am going to list, serve only for the purpose of those quick readers who want to know the overall view of the class. For more skills, please go to the Edits section.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I will use the term “Baffled” several times in my skills. I made the name up for guild wars, but in-game the baffled condition will make the whole screen blurry. (Remember Mission two in Nightfall?)

-Attribute Skills-Gun Mastery

-Hex Shot-
Energy-10 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-10
All your hexes are removed and shot out of you gun. Enemies dmged by the gun receives the hex.

-Aimed Target-
Energy-10 Activation-X Regeneration-15
You may click on 3 targets. You shoot your gun twice at each target. 60%..40%..30%..20%..10% chance you deal your self twice your normal gun dmg. This chance applies three times. (since your shooting three times).

-One Shot-
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Regneration-2
You shoot target enemy for 20..40..60 dmg. 30%..20%..10% chance you deal your self 20..30..40..60 dmg.

-Pellet Shower-
Energy-15 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You shoot to the sky and small pellets rain over target enemy. Striking target enemy and adjacent enemies for 20..40..60..70 dmg. And blinding them for 2..4..6..7 seconds. 60%..40%..20% chance you deal yourself 10..20..40..60 dmg. And you become baffled for 3..4..5 seconds. (the stronger your dmg deals the longer the baffle effect.)

-ELITE-Mastered Shot-
Energy-25 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You become instantly baffled when using this attack for 5..6..7..8 seconds. You deal all enemies in earshot range 20..40..60..80 dmg and take all of their enchants to yourself for 5..8..10..12 seconds.


-Attribute Skills- Firearm-

-Powder Wrappings-
Energy-10 Activation-2 Regeneration-5
You take paper and stuff some gunpowder in it. (there is no ingredients required for any of the firearm skills, just how it will look like). You may throw five of these bombs at any target 5 times. You deal 10..20..25 dmg each time.

-Detonation Bomb-
Energy-25 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-15
You may place 1..2..3..4 gunpowder traps anywhere you would like. Pressing the skill again will activate all the bombs. Each bomb causes 10..20..30..50 dmg. Caution that if party members step into the trap, it will explode dealing ½ 10..20..30..50 dmg and causes baffle for 2..3..4 seconds.

-Apply Gunpowder-
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-2
Touch. Touch one party member and you apply some blinding gunpowder to their weapon. (Includes wands and staffs). For 2..4..6 seconds that party member becomes baffled for 5..4..3..2 seconds. But they deal blindess on enemy for 3..4..5 seconds and deal 5%..10%..15%..20%..more dmg for 3..4..6..7 seconds.
-ELITE-Trebuchet-
Energy-15 Activation-4 Regeneration-10
You create 1..2..3..4 small trebuchet (human size) and you may place any keg related skills, and drop it into the trebuchet. This has thrice the normal bow range.

-Attribute Skills-Alchemy-

-Healing Potion-
Required Ingredients>1 of <name>
You are healed for +10...+20..+30..+40

-Elixir-
Required Ingredients>1 of <name> and one of <name>
One health degeneration effect is immediately removed.

-Absorbing Hex-
Required Ingredients>2 of <name>
1 of a party member suffering from hex (also you) is removed and stored in this bottle for 4..6..8..10 seconds. At the end of duration all hexes are put on you again.

-ELITE-Gunpowder Mix-
Required Ingredients>1 of <name> and <name> and <name> and <name>
You may drop on 3 gunpowder traps a very deadly liquid. When enemy is dmged by the trap, the trap does lightning dmg for 10..20..30..40 dmg and causes crippling to foes nearby.


-Attribute Skills-Delusion (all delusion spells will look yellow)

-Party Hex Absorption-
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-10
All hexes on your party members immediately transfer to you.

-Dellusionist hex-
Energy-10 Activation-3/4 Regeneration-10
Target enemy, and all enemies nearby him are hexed with fear and therefore run for 1..2..3..4 seconds.

-Healing Delusion-
Energy-15 Activation-4 Regeneration-15
You create a transparent fountain, and ally adjacent to it, is healed for +1..+2..+4..+6. And have a 20%..30%..40%..50%..60%..70% chance to block all attacks (including magic) Lasts for 4..6..8..10 seconds. At end of duration all party members who healed from the fountain become poisoned for –1..-2..-3 regeneration which lasts for 2..4..6 seconds.

-ELITE-Manipulative Condition-
Energy-20 Activation-6 Regeneration-10
You remove all conditions from party members and instead apply them to you. All the condition is then transferred towards target enemy.

EDITS!!!!!!
This section deals with new skills I produced, and also the skills which I was recommended to input.

NEW GUN MASTER EDITS:

Fearing Blasts
Energy-15 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You shoot all adjacent enemies near you, causing 10..20..30 dmg each and fear for 1..2..3..4 seconds. 50%..40%..30%..20% chance you cause buffle to yourself.




NEW FIREARM EDITS:

Keg Explosion
You drop four kegs in front of you. All of them will go off in 15 seconds. You can place them anywere and when they go off they do 10..20..30 dmg each. If you place them next to gunpowder traps or into Trebuchets they will do 1/3 more dmg.

-ELITE-Apply Fire-
Energy-15 Activation-4 Regeneration-10
For 10 seconds all your attacks (including bombs/gunpowder/bullets) causes burning for
-1..-2..-3..-4..-5.. regeneration.



NEW ALCHEMY EDITS:

Keg Transformation
Energy-10 Activation-4 Regeneration-5
You make a vile of poisonous substance and place it onto kegs. Doing –1..-2..-3 degeneration.

Minor Energy
Required Ingredients 2 of <name>
You gain +15 energy.


NEW DELUSION EDITS:

Battle Reversal
Energy-25 Activation-3/4 Restoration-10
All combat dmg/hex/condition dealt to your party members are redirected to one enemy sharing with all enemies in earshot from him. This lasts for 2..3..4..5..6 seconds.

Energy Gain
Energy-5 Activation-3/4 Restoration-5
Touch. Touch enemy interrupting their spell or skill. If you interrupted them you receive 1/8...1/7…1/5…1/4…1/2 of their energy.


Thank you for reading my whole idea and I’d appreciate some feedback on it.

Although I don’t mind any kind of feedback, I would like that instead of telling me that (for example) my class is just way too overpowered, give me some info on what skills and attacks you find overpowering. That way I can make improvements :P.

-Ryuken

No suggestions?? I'd appreciate any kind of feed back really. I just want to know what you guys who viewed this post think about it.

i have to say, again, that this prof id pretty cool, though i hate alchemy and guns in GW. The delusion attribute seems like a whole mesmer/necro packed into one attribute (removing conditions and putting them on urself, and energy gain...) so you need to make a new attribute that is really unique.

i like it i only read half way through cuz it long and i dont have time but one upgrade i noticed u nedded to lessen the cheapness

-ELITE-Mastered Shot-
Energy-25 Activation-5 Regeneration-15
You become instantly baffled when using this attack for 5..6..7..8 seconds. You deal all enemies in earshot range 20..40..60..80 dmg and take all of their enchants to yourself for remander of the enchantment time for up to 5..8..10..12 seconds.

thanks for you input, I still think GW is missing guns and the alchemy so that's the reason why I put it there. And I wanted delusion to be sort of what you described since it's main feature is really firearms and guns. But isn't alchemy, gun mastery, and firearms unique though?? I agree that a few things in delusion may seem the same like n/mes but the difference is the fact that you can put ALL of the hexes and shoot them out of your gun towards the enemy. I don't think (besides the gun part) the mesmer has such skills correct?

Well actually It isn't as overpowered as you may think. Let's compare this to meteor shower for example. Meteor shower has the 20..50 dmg and it lasts I think like for 5 seconds or so. Instead of dealing all that much dmg instead this attacks draws away enchantments. Since both skills have the same amount of energy and this spell takes 1 sec longer then meteor shower, I am not sure what's too overpowering about it. But if you find anything else tell me. AND ontop of all that it's an elite and meteor shower is not.

Meteor Shower lasts for 9 seconds, and every 3 seconds, target is knocked down and takes about 20...75 damage.

lol what Dean said. So meteor shower is even more powerful.

i cannot agree with a class that needs any sort of ammo (the ingredients)

i cannot agree with a class that needs any sort of ammo (the ingredients)

I didnt see anything about needing ammo or anything in this proffesion/

I think it looks pretty cool. I really dont know wut else to say because im not very good at concept classes

er that's the thing i was talking about

I'm just too tired of explaining the folly of guns. Paint it any way you want, guns replace ability with technology, and destroy the balance of feudal combat.

i totally agree, guns dont belong in GW, unless its cannons on ships and things, which i know someone is gonna bring up.

well I knew that this class isn't gonna go anywere because of this gun issue (And I began to think about it half way through my Concept Class..but I decided to bring it out anyway) But I'll still argue with the fact that guns can be put in the game and won't change a thing. I mean look at WOW for example, you NEVER see the gun-bow issue...ever. And guns existed in Mideval times which I belive GW is set in. And what's the difference if blasts come out of a canon instead of your HANDS???..the guns sound a bit more logical. Well anyway I apreciate your feed back and I best not attempt another gun CC

But why is the engeneer so popular then?? that class has guns as well?

P.S-Aren't canons and ships MORE technology driven then guns?????????????????????????????????????????The chinese had gunpowder and used it on their arrows btw. IT's not like gunpowder came much much much after that.

No, Ships have been around longer than good swords, back when spears and bows were the reliable weapons of battle, and a cannons have been around since ancient greece. Yes, Archemedies steam cannon has been reinvented and is recognized as on of the many outstanding contraptions which kept the greeks from defeating his province. A cannon takes far less technology, explosive devices in compact hand held form which are capable of actual use take much more skill and accuracy.

And though I didn't want to bother with this, I will entertain you since your not a moron. Adding guns isn't about unbalancing the game, Anet will make whatever they add balanced, and could make them weaker than throwing rocks, but in reality that isn't what happens, and adding guns to this fantasy destroys any continuity and realism of warriors charging with swords into battle.

You will notice that in the wake of guns, Samurai, Knights and any other form of melee combatant are reduced until they are totaly abandon, if you actually consider what the battle field looks like with the addition of guns, you realize that there are nothing but riflemen, artilerry, and perhaps some calvery, there are no charging warriors or anything of that nature.

But most of all, the average footsoldier becomes nothing more than a marksman with overnight combat training, even a child is deadly with a gun, the entire purpose of a gun is to replace ability with technology, combat loses its skilled and inspiring warrior kings who charge into battle with their men, and instead focuses on generals stragizing means of attack and possitioning. In a world with guns, all the talent and glory of combat is robbed and replaced with technology and strategy.

Lastly, in a world of magics, guns are not neccessary, the only difference is the ease at which a gun is learned and used compared to the skill and training of a magician, making farmers deadly adversaries, and reducing the scene of battle to who has the best firepower and strategy.

It isn't about adding guns and making a completely fake and ridiculous weakness to them to balance them out with other weapons, it is about maintaining the realism and continuity of the game. You could easily add Crossbows to have the exact same effect you propose for a gun, except it wouldn't be totaly fake and unreal for people to continue melee combat with skilled warriors instead of a row of marksmen.

I think my Favorite alchemist idea featured a slingshot (a real one, not the rubber band one), in which the alchemist would fling rocks at enemies for attack, and use skills which fling concoctions and bombs at enemies.

Actually, handguns were around a good couple of centuries earlier than many people think. Early on, however, they were seen as inferior to longbows and crossbows due to the slow rate of fire (I believe there was a model in the 1300s that actually required two people to use - one to hold it up, and one to light the powder) inferior armour penetration (there was a period when one of the main tests of armour was to fire a bullet at it, the resulting dent being seen as proof of the armour's quality), poor accuracy, and expense (both in making the firearm itself and in providing gunpowder)

Even after muskets had replaced bows and crossbows as the ranged weapon of choice, it still took a while for them to become universal. Cavalry still had the same ability to ride down musketeers as they could longbowmen and crossbowmen, so pikemen survived until at least the 17th century in order to hold the cavalry off (even after pistols and carbines were invented for cavalry, for a good century or so they were inaccurate enough that keeping the horseman at pike's length could keep you fairly safe from his pistols). Lancers were used in the Napoleonic war, and sabre charges survived into World War 1 - obviously not in the European trench warfare, but it was used in less congested theatres such as in the Middle East by and against the Ottoman Empire.

The point I'm making is that there was no instantaneous switch from feudal warfare to every soldier on the battlefield being armed with a firearm. It was a gradual transition - the divide comes mostly because feudal times are romanticised while the period of European military history from the start of the Renaissance to World War 1 is largely ignored by popular culture.

Once the gun reached a certain point, it did certainly have the effect BK described - it isn't for nothing that it is often known as the "great equaliser", and even though cavalry and so on did survive, warfare as a whole did become more a question of strategy than individual heroism (hence that period being largely ignored by the media). However, during the later Middle Ages, handguns were certainly present - however, handgunners were simply seen as inferior or less practical to crossbowmen or well-trained longbowmen.

Which, if handguns were to be introduced, would be the way I'd be looking at introducing them - in the hands of a technophile class (as long as such a class was sufficiently distinct from a Ranger with traps and preparations, and the Elementalist with the old-fashioned way (at least for fantasy games) of making things go boom) with the gun itself being inferior to the Ranger's bow. Essentially, the role of the gun would be like the Paragon's spear - it gives the profession a weapon and a few tricks with that weapon, but ultimately, the handgunner's primary role is something other than shooting the enemy with the handgun. It then becomes a curiousity of the profession, but no threat to the Ranger's archery when looking for a non-magical ranged attack... at least, not for another century or so .

On the profession itself...

I made the comment about overlapping with the Ranger before actually reading your skills, but knowing that traps and similar effects would be a likely threatened overlap point between the Ranger and a profession that uses gunpowder. Sure enough, you went there. While there are professions out there that take facets of an existing profession and expand it to a full profession concept (Ranger spirits for the Ritualist, warrior shouts for the Paragon, PBAOEs for the Dervish), I think the Ranger covers trapping well enough that we don't need another trapper. (Okay, maybe a little bit of trapping - because it's hard to see how a alchemist-focussed character wouldn't play with explosive traps at times - but it should be an occasional trick rather than a focus for the class.)

I don't see how hex manipulation as shown above fits the concept. Hexes are inherently magical, while this profession doesn't appear to be a spellcaster (even a hybrid spellcaster/warrior like the Assassin or Dervish). On a quick scan through, I don't think any of the purely non-spellcasting classes (Ranger, Warrior, Paragon) have any means to remove or manipulate hexes - the best they have are skills that help them survive until the hex wears off such as Melandru's Resiliance. Basically, it seems in order to remove, inflict, or transfer a hex, there has to be magic involved, and any magic this class works should be via potions rather than direct use. (This could, however, be worked with - you could, for instance, have a hex removal potion, or even a potion that can be applied to 'soak up' a hex and then used to annoint a bullet to deliver the hex to the next target you shoot. Consider carefully, however, anything that moves or removes more than one hex at a time - even Expel Hexes only does it two at a time, and that's elite.)

Fear appears to be against the principle of the game - there aren't any effects that remove control of a character from the player (well, apart from cutscenes...) and I think this is deliberate. Better would be a condition that encourages the character to run - say, one that slows down attack speed and skill use but increases movement speed.

Finally, I think having skills rely on inventory items is a bit clunky. A better system would probably be to have something that combines Soul Reaping and Adrenaline - each creature that dies within range charges up your potion skills to represent ingredients being quickly taken from the corpse. This could then be combined with a skill that allows you to exploit corpses in order to charge up your potion skills faster. (This could also open up an elixir of life as a semi-reusable res - it just takes a lot of ingredients to recharge.)

It doesn't have to be an instantanious switch, it will switch, imagine the state of the future of GW if guns are a part of it?, there woln't be a future GW, because Guns take over and feudal combat ends. Even in your example, you already ruled out the swordsmen and feudal infantry, rifles are used and the battle reroutes to firing lines and calvery (which isn't in the game yet). Your description only supports my point.

Furthermore, what is the function of a gun if it is yet to outmatch a crossbow in reload, accuracy, even power. It isn't legitimate, it is like debating whether a Katana is acceptable before advanced forging techniques where developed to make them strong, comparing the weapon in developement isn't even a topic of discussion, that cannot be accepted.

In all realism, it is more effective for a feudal gunman to be using a mini cannon rather than a handgun, the extreme inaccuracy, lack of power (the first guns had far less penetrating power than an arrow) and extreme loading times make a single gunmen on a battlefield a joke as well as and insult. For that matter, why not just throw bombs? projectile weapons are probably not going to fire past the danger zone, so tell me how your guns are going to shoot projectiles which actually have any level of accuracy, in being a prototype weapon, Drop at a distance of less than 10 meters, and not deal any kind of useful or realistic damage. The end result is an undesirable weapon which would be worthless if it is in such an experimental stage as your suggest and only cheapen the background of GW. At which point any sort of gun is actually useful at all, your immediately step into the realm of replacement with firefighting instead of feudal combat. Guns ride a razor sharp line between begin unrealistic and unreasonable, to replacing combatants altogether. The whole image of a hero is skill and combat abilities, you start replacing that with technology and your directly blemishing the environment this game revolves around.

Unneeded, unrealistic, unreasonable, and determental to the image of GW as a whole, what do guns actually have to offer here?, accept that it follows every other mindless RPG which supposes guns in feudal combat and pretends they are just a modifided version of bow, it is plain retarded.

As I have said before, players running around as Dragons would be more common place than a bunch of musketeers pretending like they don't actually rewrite the whole reality of the game.

The Mythbusters tried this one TWICE, and they could only get it to work by using modern day technology which would not have been around back then.

This question is directed to BahamutKaiser.

Don't take it as offense, but just wondering, which do you think would be more powerful.... a Dragon's Breath, Dragon's Bite, or a Musket fire? Say the victim is a heavily armor Warrior, which (on a logical base with realism as first for consideration) would seem to deal more damage?

Yes, it will switch. But will it switch in a time period where we'll see the switch in the game? It took a century or two for the handgun to go from a curiousity to becoming a dominant force on the battlefield - now, while the gap between Chapter 3 and Chapter 2 is bigger than between the first two, I think we've got room for quite a few chapters before we come to that point.

You'll notice that I recommended that if a gun was to be introduced that it be done so as the weapon of a non-fighting class. One of the big advantages to the handgun was that it was fairly easy to learn - certainly compared to a longbow. So the actual soldiers are the Rangers with bows, but the handgun can be useful for someone whose training didn't have room for archery practise every Sunday.

The other element is that I recommended that if it was to be introduced, that it for a technophilic profession. Such a character may choose to use a handgun simply because they see it as the technological option, even if it is still seen as inferior to a bow in the hands of an expert. This is especially true if, as implied above, the gun-using profession was also busy doing something else and didn't have the time to learn to be a competant archer.

Essentially, the way I'd do it (and I'm not saying that if I was in charge that I would, just that I wouldn't necassarily throw it out without consideration) is as follows: First, I'd make it two-handed. Pistols and one-handed firearms in general, from memory, didn't really start showing up until well into the Renaissance. I'd make it do a little more damage than a bow and possibly give it the armour penetration of the hornbow (or maybe better), but I'd decrease the fire rate to achieve a slightly lower average damage. Range would be shortbow range or maybe a little shorter, to represent the lower accuracy. Finally, it would be on a profession like the Paragon whose main purpose on the battlefield isn't to deal damage with their weapon. Ranger NPCs may even make fun of firearms for being flashy and impractical, but agree that their wielders can be useful to have around.

What do you think the first handguns were? Even so, there was a century or so where the handgun was a viable alternative to its competitors - during which some units used them, some used crossbows, and some used longbows - between when it was essentially an experimental weapon and when they started taking over. Don't think of the last century where the face of warfare was revolutionised with every major conflict - back then, technological advance, and the changes brought by it, was a fairly slow and gradual process.

As for throwing bombs - well, I did say that the firearm-wielders should have something else to do (although that's competing with Elementalists if not done carefully). Directly, however, it was only the early cavalry pistols and carbines that were quite 'effective range shorter than a pike' inaccurate.

So, mechanically, how would it not be a modified version of a bow? According to game mechanics, a projectile or thrown weapon has range, projectile speed, damage, refire rate, and not very many other characteristics than that. In the case of the gun, one change could be to remove the projectile and make it instantaneous, but otherwise, it is going to be range, damage, and refire rate*.

Besides, how do you think late medieval military commanders viewed handguns? Consider that the name of the arquebus - the predecessor of the musket - translates to 'bow with a mouth'.

Does GW need firearms? The answer is clearly no. But would their introduction destroy the setting? Well, it might stretch the suspension of disbelief if the timeline was then advanced a few centuries and people were still using medieval fighting methods, but without such dramatic chronological shifts, the answer is no.

*Refire rate, not the socialogical or military implications, is probably the main reason why I, personally, would think hard on whether guns are worth introducing. Until well into the 1800s, rates of fire of around five shots per round were typical - and that's a lot of downtime between shots. For the purpose of the game, this could be reduced (as I think they have been with bows and throwing spears, although I haven't seriously trained in either so I may be wrong) but the amount of time spent reloading a semi-historically-accurate handgun could be a significant dampener to its viability as a weapon.

A dragon deals precisely as much damage as anything else in the game. Comparing Glint and Kunnavang as examples is no different than comparing the lich or shiro as a standard for humans, obviously characters would use a standard which parrallels humans, and as a direct comparison, we fight dragons all the time in GW and they don't actually put up any more of a match than any other creature. The restriction behind dragons is that it isn't a common and easly produced power like a gun, it isn't something that would erase warrior and ranger from the battlefield, it isn't even human so it offers no advantage to the weak, nor does it equalize the battlefield. If you actually thought about the impact of dragons and the impact of guns you would have realized that, but your not thinking at all, your assuming.

Now when I say sequel to GW I didn't say next chapter, or even next 10 chapters. I said sequel, and more specifically I ment Sequel, the next generation of GW. It will not occupy the same timeline as this version, and it will likely be in the not too distant future. Any guns now means no feudal combat in the future, effectively removing the possibility of a sequel with any sort of realism altogether, a world with feudal combat and guns is nothing short of FF, and even they are unrealistic.

As for a realistic firing rate for a weapon which would rationally take way to long in normal combat, I already remedied that. The only way to have a rifle type weapon in GW which is even remotely as limited as it should be is to simply be a skill and not an actual weapon. In this way you use a skill which basicly functions exactly like a nuke spell, high damage on a single target with a high recast, like a real gun. Obviously this adds nothing new to the game, except that maybe you would have a nuke spell in signet form....

Now you can keep arguing the weaknesses of a gun all day long, no matter how your balance it with other classes, it will never remove the fact that guns provide the neccessary technology for nearly talentless people to brandish lethal force, effectively ending this period of warfare. It has nothing to do with class balance or comparison with other weapons, it has to do with realism, which simply doesn't allow for feudal combat and guns to coexsist.

And the Steam Cannon has been reinvented, telling me that some TV show couldn't reproduce it on a whim doesn't mean anything to me, it has been reproduced by scientist, and doesn't just work, but has been tested with great success. History is riddled with marvels and discoveries which were lost, modern technology still doesn't explain the pyrimids, and doesn't account for a great number of inventions lost to time. The scientific equivelent of "Jackass" doesn't disprove Archemidies Steam Cannon, nor does a dated show recognize the revolution of current events. It tolk centuries for society and human kind as a whole to develope the amount of mathimatical knowledge Archemidies did by himself, pretending to understand his mysteries is ignorant, very. Obviously it was not built with modern day technology, an unparralleled feat of genious designed the steam cannon, and no amount of modern tools compare.

If guns were being developed in a GW environment, no single class would be using a hand gun, a mini cannon would be neccessary to even deal damage, and shrapnel AoE skills are far more realistic than hand held combustion weapons. If hand guns exsisted, everyone would have one, that is the reality of guns, just as 16th-18th century pirates would use pistols and sabers, everyone would have a gun to compliment whatever else they can do, because the ultimate result is widespread use, not a new weapon for one class.

Awsome depth and thourough planning. This is a very feasable concept and is excellently done. A + is my grade to this and i would like to see something like this in Chapter 4 because many of your elements are reachable. Good job.

While I truly hope guns are not added to GW I can see a way that would not unbalance the game.

The guns would be tied to the profs primary skill but instead of being dmg related it would be accuracy. So if a war picked up the gun he woud miss 90% of the time. The dmg could be fixed to another attribute or standard with every hit. (precident the wurms you control always deal the same dmg if you have a spear equiped when you enter one) The reload time would limit the overall damage to something reasonable and skills would offcourse need to be ballanced. One way would be to have skills that called a body part to be targeted and cause a condition if you hit. ie leg shot = criple , head shot=dazed.
Another balance would be armor. Low armor for mobility and to allow carring of a heavy weapon He's not likely built like a war but more like a mesmer.

In the end however your really just going to end up with a ranger that uses a diffent graphical weapon with very similar uses and builds.

Good try but it just wont fly...

I like that idea but guns I still frown on.. unless it was a magical type gun that shoots out fire/ice dmg or whatever that will be effected by blindness ect.. like rangers and paragons but like ranger and paragons have the poison and stuff these guns could shoot out ice and other funky spells *shrug* maybe more like an alchemist thingy.

As I have said, balance is a standard, not an issue. It will be balanced if it is in the game, if they wanted, they could make guns less powerful than throwing a rock, it is the reality of firepower that doesn't fit. In the end, it offers nothing to the game, it will either be another ranged weapon just like bow and spear, or it will be a nuke skill just like elementist attacks, it is just a poor choice for another ranged opportunity.

I should let this wait till I finish my Bucaneer CC, but I'm getting rather tired of people that don't know guns/basic physics. With the exeption of draxynnic u'r a cool guy

A projectile deals damge relative to its force, its force is a direct effect off its acceleration and mass(weight), a arrow acceleratates off the bow there for the acceleration it recieves from the bow is the energy it will carry until it hits it's target and comes to a full stop(dumping its energy it used to have for movement into damaging the target)
(I'll handle falling later)(and am neglecting friction by air as in GW there is no spoon )

Arrows lets say they way 0.45kg are fired from a bow
(technically compound bows fire at higher speed than longbows and longbow more than short bows but Anet has chosen to ignore this)
at a speed deterined by the maximum tention a archer can apply to a bow string, and whether he actually goes all out or not(not going all out is faster shooting, also less tiering and negalectably more acurate)

Shooting a arrow upwards makes it fall, the longer it falls the faster it goes thusly the more damage it does. It recieves a acceleration 9.5m/s for each second it falls.

From that I would guess an arrow to be somewhere between 40m/s off a bow and 60m/s after falling for 6 seconds.
To not make it more complicated than it already is we will assume it takes exactly 1 second for an arrow to transfer its energy into impact energy(acceleration goes from X to 0 meaning speed = acceleration)
Now taking the averige speed F= Mass*Acceleration = 0.45(kg)*50(m/s/s) = 22.5 newton of energy transferred into damage.

I'm sure there are flechers out there that know the exact speed at wich an arrow moves, and i probably got it very wrong if so plz flame me, as long as you menion the correct equalation.

now a bow might just level with a musket so I'll first do a crossbow too.
Bolt 0.82kg (metal crosbow arrow heavyer to pierce armour, it pierces armour because it has more energy, which at the time I'm sure they sorta knew)
crossbow fireing speed 60-70 m/s the arrow flie faster so you can shoot them higher thusly they gather more speed while falling 85m/s for falling 9 seconds.
the average speed is then 72.5 F = m*a = 0.82*77.5 = 59.45 newton transferred into damage.

A musket is the most logical gun to place in guild wars, it was like the first good gun, it fired 1 small lead ball, with the most terrible accuracy of a commonly used war weapon ever.
Muskets don't shoot straight they fire in a curve ball to whatever side of the barral the bullet hits last.
(like ranger's arrow arch high, medium and low the sideway movement of a musket could have 3 degrees inaccuracy, but not returning like an arrow just going offcourse making the miss chance more the farter away the target is)
It was only untill percision manufactering was invented in 1860-1890(not sure doesn't really matter) pointed bullets could be made, which are longer thus heavyer, because before that they could not make a bullet precise enough to fit the barral so that groeves could make it spinn(cylinders spinn forward over and boomerang(downwards into the ground) if you don't make them spinn around their circualr edge)

Now: small lead ball 0.15kg.
Todays guns fire at slightly above the speed of sound(340 m/s) for a hand gun, and plenty of above for a high velocity rifle.
Muskets had black powder(messy stainy and less efficient than current gun powder), crude barrels and wasted energy due to not perfectly fitting bullets. so I gamble at 300 m/s
F = m*a = 0.15*300 = 45 newton into damage, only 75% of the crossbow and taken that the crossbow mas much more acurate, it is reasonable if you start to wonder why a musket was ussed more than a crossbow.

The reason is friction, the speed paired with the size of a bolt made it 50-60% likely to pierce a platemail and 1-5% to pierce a shield(of metal wood would have been higher), the bullet was smaller and therfor encountered less resistance from armour(no getting stuck half way because of scraping along the sides) it was 90% likely to pierce a platemail and 50-70% to pierce a shield.


Game wise all of that translates to!
Musket (2 handed)
Armour piercing 30%
5% chance to miss for every 5' of distance shot.
Damage: 15-35 (requires 9 Firearm mastery)
at a speed of 4.15 (54% slower than the slowest bow, 207.5% slower than the fastest)
and a near instant strike(instead of a flying projectile more of a straight line mesh with color moving along it)
Range 90

The damage should be 27-50 to be exactly 80% more damaging than a bow, but balance wise I think 0.0%-69.4% is quite enough.
I realise this may look over powered, but taken into acount the hammer which is 31.% slower than a sword but deals 26.6%-59% more damage and does not have a miss% I would say this is similar(instead if giving up offhand you give up even more speed)


now comes the flaming;
FFS, HOW DID YOU GET THE IDEA OF A UNCHANGING DAMAGE OUTPUT?!!!
That is reality wise impossible, and game wise totaly unrealistic.
First of all no shot is the same(chaos theory and all that) you will not only hit someone in the exact same way twice, but the element of chance would also affect the damage.
Also a warrior fireing a gun would do much less damage than a gun expert, they would flinsh when fireing, aim with a unsteady hand and probably also put in the wrong mixture and amount of gun powder.
They would be more likelt to miss yes, but fireing point blank(withing 40') even a big block o' lvl 8 drox armour could hit his target.

GW has set amount of chances of hit each body part taken form The Art of Tanking

• 12.5% chance of attacks hitting your head
• 12.5% chance of attacks hitting your feet
• 12.5% chance of attacks hitting your arms
• 25.0% chance of attacks hitting your legs
• 37.5% chance of attacks hitting your chest

this means game wise your steady damage would deal the same damage on a head shot as it would when shooting somone in his toe.
spells are guided mytically, this means they always hit the same way therefor always deal the same damage all the caster has to do is keep consentrated on his target, and hope there is nothing in the way.
Bullets are not guided by the gift of the gods, and there for can not story wise for GW strike magically guided.

Concludingly I am completely against mixing magic and technology, I agree with the acranum theory(magic warps/breaks the laws of physics while technology needs them to work correctly, introduced in the game Acranum by the now bankrupt Troika games)
I hate it when clearly technological devices are said to work with magic. IF ITS MAGICAL IT LOOKS MAGICAL! IF NOT YOU HAVE A LACK OF IMAGINATION.
and I think there should never be a class in GW or any other game, that is both magical and technologically inclined(at the same time).
You could make a class that has both but when using one the other is locked/strongly lowered in effectiveness for x seconds.

Shorter for the people who don't like/have time to read alot.
I can't say I like the class as I think you should never mix technology and magic, and alchemy is the magical counterpart of chemistry/herbeology(not a historic version of, they tried finding magical properties of substances, which they precieved to be brought forth from a mix of multiple elements and elements where though to have magical(ish) properties)

Baffeled is not good for gw, as blind doesn't do anything to your screen either. it should have the same effect on players as it does on npc's and a aditional effect to players meant only to annoy/hinder them is unlikely, unreasonable and not very ballanced.
It's fun though I'll give you that, my AO NT also does a AoE blind in a pvp area and then runs like hell, only to see teh kiting PvPers run into things, and get killed by the people chasing them

All you gun dissers should keep quiet about guns being to strong,

• 1 archer v.s. 1 musketeer = archer wins
• 20 archer v.s. 20 musketeer = about even
• 40 archer v.s. 40 musketeer = musketteers win

the first guns sucked compared to the bows at the time, they where only used because of the armour piercing and the psychological effect
(psychology should not be underestimated it has won more fights of any size then guns have)
EDIT: just read BahamutKaiser's piece on gun's allowing normal people to become effective at killing, they have more chance with a dagger, musketeers where trained 2 or 3 years longer than archers, because it takes a lot of practice and lots of repetition to use a weapon with soo much recharge time effectivaly.

That is exactly what I said, a single man with a gun in feudal combat would just get cut down. What actually happens to the reality of GW if you actually have guns though?, war just become numbers and technology. You may consider that 20 archers vs 20 musketeers is about even, but when you compare the quality and reproduction of an archer to a musketeer, the dilusion ends. 20 untrained men with bows vs 20 untrained men with guns, who wins? 500 proficient warriors vs 5000 farmers with guns, who wins? The product of guns is untalented lethality, it doesn't have to be accurate, it doesn't even have to be the most powerful, in reality, it takes fatality out of the hands of skilled combatants and puts in squarely in the hands of any fool who can load a gun. A gun does not have to be used effectively to be lethal, that is the point. A weapon with little to no impact used by a single character, and totaly damning to the reality of the game.

If you go into battle with 100 untrained swordsmen vs 15 trained ones, who wins?, 40 archers with accuracy vs 100 who can't pull a string back? Guns are equalizers, they replace skill and strength with technology, they always have been and always will be. We intentionally play a game that involves feudal combat because we like it, and guess what, feudal combat wasn't replaced because people suddenly stopped liking it, your suggesting the very tool of its destruction.

Now considering that GW involves Dragons and humans who can summon meteors out of the sky, and lightning bolts out of their hand, a gun really isn't impressive by itself, and doesn't provide a psychological factor. A gun shot from a prototype weapon doesn't have a fraction of the scare factor that a man who can snap lightning out of his hand does, guess what, thunder is still scarier than a gunshot, and when you know it is aimed at you, you are damn scared. Argue the technicallities all you want, it doesn't change the effect of guns on GW, it will suck, no matter how much you justify it, it will still suck, it would be unreal and it would be pathetic.

Actually, firing in the arc doesn't increase kinetic energy. If you ignore air resistance, regardless of the angle you shoot at, it'll strike with the same energy that it had when it left the bow (assuming your target is at the same elevation you are) - the acceleration from gravity in the descending part of the arc is balanced by deceleration on the way up. The reason arrows are fired in an arc is that the arc grants a longer range - for frictionless projectile motion the optimal arc is 45 degrees, but in the atmosphere, it's closer to 30-35 degrees, and firing at a flatter arc if possible is preferable to reduce air resistance and wind effects.

On the socialogical effects - I think the gripping hand is that Pandora's box has already been opened - cannons have already been introduced into the game. If it is inevitable that early handguns will lead to later handguns that revolutionise the battlefield, it is equally inevitable that sooner or later someone will twig to the idea of making a portable cannon, leading to the handgun. In Europe, the gap between the first cannons and the first handguns was on the same order as the gap between the first handguns and the time where handguns started to take over.

Also, I really don't see the significance of a completely new game as a sequel as opposed to simply adding more chapters - they could just as easily have a full sequel be six months after the last chapter of the original as they could make the next chapter be ten years afterwards. Either way, if they continue at the current rate, or even at the rate set by the gap between Factions and Nightfall (3 years gametime for 6 months realtime) that gives about fifteen years realtime before it starts to be an issue.

Eventually technology will advance far enough to make an even better game which is still functional for what will be common systems in 3 or 4 years, and GW could easily continue if they keep improving. At that point it will be important for them to revive the game with new technologies and a sequel.

There were great deal of firearms between the invention of gunpowder and the refinement of it that are being excluded, and creating a time frame in a world of magic with real world advancements is obviously innaccurate, as the need for technological power is bypassed by the use of magical power, easily chancing that people would research something totaly differen't and not advance firearms at all. There have been hand held firearms as long as there have been cannons, perhaps longer, but they sucked. Equate that against the awsome magical powers available which can create catastrophies like the Jade Wind, the Searing, and the sinking of Orr, and the advancement of technological weapons takes a clear second stage, if a stage at all. Context changes everything.

Adding Firearms will be an issue immediately, the use of firearms starts replacing strength and skill right away.

Also note that all technology isn't progressive, to be true, technology has digressed innumberable times throughout history, if every human invention were preserved and compiled throughout history, we would be 2000+ years more advanced than we are today, and even in GW, powerful magics and history are lost and redeveloped, so assuming technology simply advances to the next level is also premature. Even on your timeline, functional rifles and handguns wouldn't be developed for a few hundred more years, the cannons siege turtles use are just gunpowder and a rock which only fires a few meters, about the same level of achievement the Chinese had, and there is a 300 year stretch between the chinese developement of explosives and experimental firearms, and the European achievement of the early hand held cannons which eventually evolved into flintlocks.

Notice that the first firearms where Propelled arrows and bombs thrown by hand or sling, just as I mentioned, and when the Europeans first obtianed firearms they first had hand held cannons, which eventually refined into smaller and faster firing weapons. Truth be told, using any gun short of a flintlock isn't an acceptable form of weapon for GW, as the weapons are not going to include extremely long refire rates and super high damage, leaving the choice between advanced firearms already coming close to automatic fire, or slinging bombs or skills which occasionally allow you to fire off a small cannon, as I suggested. A makeshift shotgun is closer to being built than a rifle in terms of advancements in technology.

As I said before, unneeded, unrealistic, unreasonable, and determental to the environment GW fosters. On an ending note, in GW, the mist connects all times and dimentions, and they can be explored by humans, Just like Lord Odran did (GW Manuscripts, page71). Lord Odran explored nearly every dimention, and left portals open which have been and are found even though they were well hidden. Just as we travel to the hall of heros, forces from the future can as well, with thier fully developed guns and war machines, unless they don't exsist at all. If guns are available at all, they are available already, meaning anyone who has already made guns, or explored the alternate dimentions could already have obtained such weapons of great advancement and usurped power just as soon as they could combine those two talents together, the only assurance that such a thing doesn't happen is if such technology never becomes available, and in a world of magic, they never need to.

...(He's got me there)
So you can actually, corretly underbuild you statments, in stead of just being critical(it's not the sientific reference that did it, your talk about contexts was what truly shut me up)
Taken a look at it I realise you are right, guns would take a background place in cultures that have magic to the work others would use technology for.
taken that the backstory to GW mentions a period where magic was gone(when it was brought back al the guilds started fighting over it)
this period would have prompted the development of the explocive weapons, under sertain cultures, but the return of magic would have mages rising to power as they always do and trying to hinder the development as much as they can.(as I said magic and technology disrupt eachother)

Darn this means I will have to revise the bukaneer to use another ranged weapon...

Hrrmn. I might have to hit the books and amend that wikipedia article - I'm pretty certain I've seen man-portable experimental firearms in the 1300s (although later rather than sooner). Late 1400s is when they first started to be adopted as viable alternatives to the bow and crossbow, although it wasn't until into the 1500s that they started taking over.

On the Mists: The Mists themselves may connect to everything, but that doesn't mean that all the portals are open in all times - they were closed until Lord Odran opened them, and they may be closed or otherwise made unusable (Tomb of Primeval Kings, anyone?) in the future. Or the spirits may consider more technological combat boring, or funnel any such combatants into a different arena, or the people from the future may not see the point of going into the Mists. There are possible explanations.

Which brings us to magic acting as an impedance to technology, which is a common excuse for halting progress in fantasy settings (those that even think of it at all rather than simply having technology stagnate at Middle Ages technology indefinitely). This commonly takes two forms:

1) The 'hard' limit. As with Arcanum, magic and technology are incompatible - magic interferes with the laws of physics so that technology doesn't work. It works, up to a point. I'd personally say that the breakdown should be subtle enough that it only blocks Industrial Revolution-level technology - less complex technology survives because the fluctuations are small enough not to matter.

The simplest firearms should still work - unless the magical field somehow stops application of flame to a flammable substance from leading to fire. In more extreme cases of impedance, more complicated forms with internal workings may be at risk - but if it's that extreme, you're also putting windmills and watermills at just as much, possibly greater, risk.

2) The 'soft' limit - because magic is available, people don't bother with technology. This is most effective as a limit when the only barrier to magic is intelligence - if anyone sufficiently intelligent can become a magic-user, there simple may not be enough brainpower left to come up with technology. If there are other barriers, than anyone who is intelligent but not magically gifted may start tinkering, unless this is suppressed by the magic-users - however, suppression doesn't stop people working on it in secret (it may even provide more impetus to 'even the odds'). Even if all the smart people are magicians, that doesn't stop them from having hobbies...

Magic can certainly slow things down - however, it doesn't stop it entirely (at least without the 'hard' limit). However, this hurts your argument as much as it helps it - since as well as slowing down when handguns first appear, it will also slow down the tipping point after which handguns become widespread. You contend that magic means that the development of guns can stop (or be suspended) at cannons and never reach the point of handguns - I countercontend that it can also suspend the process of handguns developing from the experimental stage to being the dominant force of warfare. After all, consider trying to sell handguns to a war leader that already has a contingent of elementalists on call... Ultimately, you can't have it both ways - if development is slowed, it could just as easily be slowed after the development of handguns as before.

3) This is a form that is rarely considered, but would probably be my justification for a lack of firearms. Forget about all the mystical "magic disrupts technology" stuff or the theoretical cultural ramifications of magic and consider the practical implications.

First, to employ a firearm is to accept as a result that you're going to have to carry an inflammable substance. On a non-magical battlefield, this is fairly unimportant, as the likelyhood of bing hit by fire is fairly small. But on a magical battlefield, where a fireball or a Searing Flames could come at any moment? Not a comforting thought.

Another consideration is the long reload times - and this could explain the lack of crossbows as well. Magic presents a lot of opportunities to mess with someone with a long reload time that weren't available in the Renaissance - any AOEDOT such as Rain of Fire, for instance (yes, you can get out of the way, but while you're doing so you're not reloading), or a Mesmer spamming Clumsiness may be able to hit your every shot while still having enough time to mess up someone else, and so on...

Essentially, it's these practical considerations that, in my mind, mark the biggest issue against early handguns in a fantasy setting. On socialogical explanations - well, I don't think you can simply freeze the clock. You can slow it down, but all you need is the odd one or two that play with this explosive powder (just what do Rangers use for the Ignite Arrows preparation, anyway?) every so often to eventually come up with something that is potentially usable - the 'carry multiple pistols and don't bother reloading in combat' trick, for instance, or even straight from no firearms on the battlefield to something like a bolt-action rifle or even something futuristic (it sounds silly, but we come back to that 'carrying potentially explosive ammunition when there are fireballs flying' thing). It's just that, since they aren't an important feature of the battlefield, there isn't the impetus behind their development that there was in the real world, so the development cycle could be orders of magnitude longer than in the real world.

That doesn't necassarily stop the odd lunatic for insisting on bringing their contraption out exploring, though... (You just might see "-20 AL against Fire" as one of the balancing factors for the firearm.)

As magic slows down the discovery of handguns, it would also slow down the developement, but there is a big difference between how long it takes to realize a technology, and the eventual finality of its reign. Yet the part about the mist is irrevocable. All of the universe connects to the mist, and in the mist, the greatest reach the Rift, the greatest of any time or dimention, thus guns end up in the Rift. And Lord Odran opened paths to nearly all dimentions, so any multitude of futurized dimentions should be available if nearly all of them were opened. And the path from the Tomb of the Unknown Kings wasn't moved "because the portal closed", that is a byproduct of placing all the PvP on Battle Isle, and reguardless, such doesn't presume that the multitude, if not scores of futuristic dimentions suddenly lose the path to the mists. Beyond that, with enough technology, they could well make a new path into the mists, assuming they lack the magic to do it.

GW just isn't the game for guns, a game with Feudal combat, Magic powers, and Firearms, has to function differently altogether. Like a good FF, the majority of Feudal style combatants would all have to be equally or somewhat well versed in magics which would provide protection vs projectile attacks. Personally, I don't even think FF does a good enough job providing a legitimate means of overcoming projectile weapons, IMO, Protect should block physical melee attacks, Shell should block magic damage, and a spell called Deflect should be available to overcome projectile threats. But there is a distinct limitation to how much a character is capable of in GW, and a full variety of abilities can't be obtained, nor does this game incorperate the general defense against mechanical weapons to combat the obstercal.

I've seen alot of people bring up a million gun facts to prove that they don't really have a significant advantage and they would be to primitive to outclass in general, but that isn't the way games work. How many fantasy games do you know of that have guns?, how many of them just have people shoting away like no tomarrow and people just let bullets roll of their shoulder. Combat is much different, not just for guns, but for all the weapons we use, one good arrow or sword blow and its over, combat isn't about how many hits you can survive, its about how well you avoid hits to survive, but with a gun, it kills if you get hit, even if you arn't killed, you don't have much fight left, and a general weapon which has a passive miss rate is hardly acceptable. The way I see it, if firearms are considered at all, the best use would be a set of skills which function like an elementist spell attribute, not an actual weapon. Mortars, bombs, Mines and perhaps a few hand held firearm weapons like a firelance. But honestly, who wants to use those things in a feudal game anyway? Truth is that it isn't even popular, it is just a force of habit, people habitually suggest gun oriented classes without even significant interest, of all the class ideas and additions this is perhaps the least desired idea (not including trash and sucky shit), and it keeps coming up. As I was saying, playing as a dragon is a better idea. More appealing, more "Awe" factor, more respect and honor (not a feature obtained by shotting guns), and more practical for a GW environment. Simple difficulty is people can wrap their mind around guns and not dragons, simple fact is that dragons belong in GW, and Guns don't.

If Anet adds guns to GW, you know what, life will go on, the game itself woln't really change. Only real impact is on the realism of the game, and for a game which features some pretty sound mechanics and realism, that is a significant hit. If this was a game where harp strums produced damage and you could catch bullets with your hands, it would tack on a lame badge which any outside person looking in would declare, "that's just fake". Personally, such ideas remind me of gameplay like FFXI where 6 people group around a small creature for 5 minutes at a time just trying to kill it for exp, besides the unbelievable grind factor, it is just lame gameplay.

I have often dreamed of making a game which included much of the feudal, magical, and modern warfare mechanics in it, which is thoughoughly fantasy, but also scifi, or rationally valid. There are a great multitude of functions which could be utilized to make such games enthrawlingly realistic yet 110% enjoyable. There are ways to make it work, but augementing something such as this to add in guns and than try to explain it away is just a poor decision, in the end it truely has nothing to offer the game, they may as well stop making classes if they need to defect to a gun class.

Two really quick points:

1) Guns would only have as much impact in GW as the programers allow(ie balanced)

2) For a truely good look at how introducing guns into a fantasy setting would impact the world read the Guardians of the Flame series of books by Joel Rosenberg. In this series he takes a group of students and strands them in a fantasy world where they build guns to give them an advantage over magicial opponents.

Actually, TOPK did, for intents and purposes related to claiming Halls, close. The game design decision was to move the PvP to the Battle Isles, yes... but in-game we have a portal that formerly allowed access to the Hall of Heroes which no longer does. For the purpose of claiming Halls, it's closed.

It sounds to me a bit like you're putting firearms to a higher realism standard to that set in the game. Yes, for a normal person, a single hit with a bullet will probably put them out of action (although it is worthwhile noting that the concept of the 'flesh wound' still applies to guns - a hit in the arm or leg will hamper someone, but won't take all teh fight out of them). Hit points, however, are an abstraction - as well as representing near-superhuman toughness (we ARE talking heroes here...) it represents know-how on how not to be hit so hard in the first place.

On just how much guns would add to the game - I'm possibly adding to your argument, but I'd register a 'meh'. Are they needed? No. Heck, most things you can do with a gun that's anywhere near contemporary you could do with a crossbow, possibly even a repeating crossbow (although I'm not sure how successful those things were in real life. I think the answer is 'not very'). On the other hand, would they destroy the suspension of disbelief? Not necassarily. In fact, for the history buff, it's almost more threatening to the suspension of disbelief that in many settings you see armour that was contemporary to early firearms, but none of the latter.

Two really repeated points Crom, the issue with guns is not the balance, it is the reality, realism, and environment of GW that takes a blow when you introduce guns into a feudal combat world. It changes the balance of power, it equalizes the common man making mockery of skill and Heros.

And yeah I already know plenty of good ways guns can work in fantasy, but guns working in GW clash left and right.

Actualy BahmautKaiser i was agreeing with you, in the books the addition of guns totaly unbalanced the world shifting it into an industilized mess as the magic users tried to build better guns using magic and the gun smith pushed more and more technology into the world. In the end there was almost no magic left and every character carried a gun. Swords became symbols that only nobility bothered with.

Guns just dont belong in GW, they could be balanced and a class could be made for them but in the end they just dont work well with magic.