HP mods are overrated.
getalifebud
Yeah I always go for defense mods, cheaper and more effective. Also for ritualists, the emergency healing of generous was tsungrai (I think? sac hp and get a boost in HP, and mega healing when you drop his ashes) does more damage as putting away your staff loses you 30hp.
Thomas.knbk
A lot of people say that a HP mod is useful at the start of the battle, but once you've taken 30 dmg you might as well have nothing equipped. This is obviously flawed logic, because if you'd have had another mod you'd still be 30HP lower than you'd be with your fortitude mod. Also, when you get a heal from your monk (rare in PvE, but it does happen) and are brought back to full health you're having the full benefit of your +30 mod again.
361 armor affected damage, you say. Think of how long it's gonna take to get that much dmg in PvE, and how often your monk overheals you for at least 30HP. You'll see that you'd get +30HP with your health mod far more often than you'll get 361 armor affected dmg. I've been in a lot of situations where I was brought down to exactly 1HP.
Let's look at a typical adrenaline spike.
Eviscerate, Executioner's strike, Sever Artery, Gash, Final, caster assistance from Energy Burn and Spiritual Pain.
+dmg from attack skills is armor ignoring, so that's 33 +deep wound (=100)+42+21+86 armor ignoring dmg from the warriors, and 80+90 from the mesmer.
That means out of the about 600 dmg the spike has, a whopping 452 is armor ignoring and only 148 is armor affected. As you can see, a +HP mod is of much mroe use here than a +%AL mod. After the spike you're brought up to full HP again, so you get the full benefit of your +HP mod again. In PvE, the same thing takes place. More dmg is armor ignoring than you think. 5 armor is not going to help you against hexes or conditions.
Maybe the fact that getting rich in GW is the easyst thing in the world helps with peopel buying things for 30K
361 armor affected damage, you say. Think of how long it's gonna take to get that much dmg in PvE, and how often your monk overheals you for at least 30HP. You'll see that you'd get +30HP with your health mod far more often than you'll get 361 armor affected dmg. I've been in a lot of situations where I was brought down to exactly 1HP.
Let's look at a typical adrenaline spike.
Eviscerate, Executioner's strike, Sever Artery, Gash, Final, caster assistance from Energy Burn and Spiritual Pain.
+dmg from attack skills is armor ignoring, so that's 33 +deep wound (=100)+42+21+86 armor ignoring dmg from the warriors, and 80+90 from the mesmer.
That means out of the about 600 dmg the spike has, a whopping 452 is armor ignoring and only 148 is armor affected. As you can see, a +HP mod is of much mroe use here than a +%AL mod. After the spike you're brought up to full HP again, so you get the full benefit of your +HP mod again. In PvE, the same thing takes place. More dmg is armor ignoring than you think. 5 armor is not going to help you against hexes or conditions.
Maybe the fact that getting rich in GW is the easyst thing in the world helps with peopel buying things for 30K
Keo Sabriel
Isn't this just a case of 'Look at me with my expensive gear'??
I run a sup vig & sup abs on my Warrior since the extra health can save you when tanking but I often run my Necro with 2 sups at ~375HP. My Monk sits at 400ish and my Dervish at over 500.
The thing is that I know I can protect myself as a Monk or a Necro while a Warrior takes it in the face and (in a team) has to rely on others to heal them, if I get spiked in either PvP or PvE chances are that spike is going to be in excess of 600 dmg to be sure of a kill and I'm going down whatever.
Many people especialy newbies play with the idea that bigger is better...I mean who stated Monking by thinking 'The bigger I can heal the better Monk I am'? I know I did and it wasn't until I started using Prot that I discovered prevention is better than cure.
In a nutshell I believe that experienced players will prevent the dmg through skills whilst younger players will try an take it head on. However there are times when changing to a +30 weap or my Scareater has saved my ass!
^_^
I run a sup vig & sup abs on my Warrior since the extra health can save you when tanking but I often run my Necro with 2 sups at ~375HP. My Monk sits at 400ish and my Dervish at over 500.
The thing is that I know I can protect myself as a Monk or a Necro while a Warrior takes it in the face and (in a team) has to rely on others to heal them, if I get spiked in either PvP or PvE chances are that spike is going to be in excess of 600 dmg to be sure of a kill and I'm going down whatever.
Many people especialy newbies play with the idea that bigger is better...I mean who stated Monking by thinking 'The bigger I can heal the better Monk I am'? I know I did and it wasn't until I started using Prot that I discovered prevention is better than cure.
In a nutshell I believe that experienced players will prevent the dmg through skills whilst younger players will try an take it head on. However there are times when changing to a +30 weap or my Scareater has saved my ass!
^_^
Enko
+30 hp mods are more expensive just because they're rarer. completely disregarding which is more effective (though in my opinion +5 armor is), its just that max hp mods are rarer than max armor mods.
HP mods can be +10-30 hp (usually at least +27 on lvl 20 items).
Armor mods can be +1-5 AL (usually +4-5 on lvl 20 items).
rarer things cost more and its a lot rarer to see a +30 hp mod than a +5 armor mod. its the same reason why 20/20 sundering mods are so overpriced when usually another mod is more effective anyways.
HP mods can be +10-30 hp (usually at least +27 on lvl 20 items).
Armor mods can be +1-5 AL (usually +4-5 on lvl 20 items).
rarer things cost more and its a lot rarer to see a +30 hp mod than a +5 armor mod. its the same reason why 20/20 sundering mods are so overpriced when usually another mod is more effective anyways.
Eclair
I haven't really tested this, but from my experience, monsters target not only based on class, but also based on hp. At 635 hp, my monk rarely gets targetted in PvE, even when I'm smack in the middle of the aggro. They always go for either my Zhed (< 500 hp, or Olias, who usually has lower health due to sacrifices). If I bring a monk hero, they usually get targetted first.
Maybe something to think about.
Maybe something to think about.
shardfenix
5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.
Effigy
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Originally Posted by shardfenix
5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.
The thing, you will be getting healed which means that, over time, you'll end up taking a lot more than 530 damage. Thus +armor prevents considerable amount of damage.
Paperfly
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I haven't really tested this, but from my experience, monsters target not only based on class, but also based on hp.
On the contrary, AL counts for an enormous amount when it comes to determining monster aggro....I keep a Defensive Staff of Defense on my monk (it's defensive!) for whenever I take aggro from a melee critter. Swap to it and circle-kite, works like a charm. Similarly, my Necro packs Tormentors and a +5 armour sword - between the 75 base AL and the fact that I don't wand, I never, ever take aggro as long as another caster in my party is alive.
pingu666
i tend to prefer +al, but having a high HP set u can pull out would be pretty good too 
Dr Strangelove
I think of +armor as an energy management tool for the monks. 4.5% less damage due to armor is roughly 4.5% less energy the monk has to spend healing you. This is why almost all monks carry +armor weapons. +health means it takes a tiny bit longer to kill you, and thus gives the monk a bit longer to react and heal you before you're spiked out.
I usually choose +armor on my characters, most of which are squishies, for the same reason I like prot magic over healing magic. Preventing damage is better than throwing a little bit on top.
That being said, if you're expecting spikes, degen teams, or ending up in skirmishes without monk support, you'd be a moron not to bring fortitude.
I usually choose +armor on my characters, most of which are squishies, for the same reason I like prot magic over healing magic. Preventing damage is better than throwing a little bit on top.
That being said, if you're expecting spikes, degen teams, or ending up in skirmishes without monk support, you'd be a moron not to bring fortitude.
aB-
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Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk
A lot of people say that a HP mod is useful at the start of the battle, but once you've taken 30 dmg you might as well have nothing equipped. This is obviously flawed logic, because if you'd have had another mod you'd still be 30HP lower than you'd be with your fortitude mod. Also, when you get a heal from your monk (rare in PvE, but it does happen) and are brought back to full health you're having the full benefit of your +30 mod again.
Actually, this is wrong. As long as you are over 30 HP with a +30 HP mod, the difference is meaningless. The ONLY time when a +30 HP mod is working is when you are reduced to less than 30 health. Let's say we have two 500 HP characters, but one has a fortitude mod and the other does not. So their actual life is 530HP and 500HP. Now let's say we take 400 damage. One has a life of 130HP, the other 100HP. So far, the fortitude mod has done nothing for the character with it. It's not until their HP is reduce to 30HP and 0HP that the fortitude does anything at all.
"I've been saved so many times by fortitude! I've been at 10 health!"
Don't forget that with an armor mod you probably wouldn't have been at that low of health. The damage negated in a battle can easily account to more than 30.
But the fortitude mod isn't worthless. As stated, armor-ignoring damage and spike damage justify its use. But in PvE, if you feel spike is a threat, your reflexes are pretty slow. Armor-ignoring damage is more of a threat, but it makes up too few attacks in the PvE arsenal that it really isn't worth worrying over.
"I've been saved so many times by fortitude! I've been at 10 health!"
Don't forget that with an armor mod you probably wouldn't have been at that low of health. The damage negated in a battle can easily account to more than 30.
But the fortitude mod isn't worthless. As stated, armor-ignoring damage and spike damage justify its use. But in PvE, if you feel spike is a threat, your reflexes are pretty slow. Armor-ignoring damage is more of a threat, but it makes up too few attacks in the PvE arsenal that it really isn't worth worrying over.
Enko
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Originally Posted by shardfenix
5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.
that's a damage reduction of 23.8 health on the first hit. what about the second and the third? overall, you'll be preventing a lot more damage than 30 hp.
Thomas.knbk
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Originally Posted by aB-
Quote: Originally Posted by aB- Don't forget that with an armor mod you probably wouldn't have been at that low of health. The damage negated in a battle can easily account to more than 30. All the+dmg from attacks is armor ignoring, all mesmer dmg is armor ignoring, all smiting is armor ignoring (xcept zealots), most necro dmg is armor ignoring, some rit dmg is armor ignoring,
Actually, only regular attacks and ele's are not armor ignoring
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Actually it is 8.3% reduction. Using this page:|
Originally Posted by Enko
that's a damage reduction of 23.8 health on the first hit. what about the second and the third? overall, you'll be preventing a lot more damage than 30 hp.
If the first hit you get strikes for 530 dmg, then yes.
Paperfly
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Actually, this is wrong. As long as you are over 30 HP with a +30 HP mod, the difference is meaningless. The ONLY time when a +30 HP mod is working is when you are reduced to less than 30 health.
There's an old Magic:The Gathering saying that often has to be explained to new players: |
"The only point of life that matters is the last one" Antheus
Domain of Anguish changes that. With 430 hits being the norm, going out there with less than 500, or even 550 health is simply asking for trouble.
Of course, you still get casters who will claim that they contribute more with 2 or 3 superior runes, than they would if they sacrificed that one extra attribute point for more health. They die if anything sneezes at them, but hey, their attacks or heals heal for 2-5 points more. And besides, all mods dropped in price and increased in availability, making money hardly a concern anymore.
Effigy
I can't stand it when people run two superior runes. I don't even run one, unless it's on a MM or something like that. Health is just too valuable to squander like like.
Spura
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Originally Posted by shardfenix
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http://www.guildwarsguru.com/calculators/guru_armor.php
And as pointed out, you will be healed many times over the course of battle if you take damage the total amount of HP saved will vastly outdo 30 HP.
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+HP and +AL both have their place in battle. When faced with degen or armor ignoring damage, I want HP on my armor/weapon. When faced with something my amor can handle, I want more AL. This is why some of us have more than one set of armor. As for the bashing for +energy mods? I find those useful.
True about energy. I want energy on my assassin or dervish. Assassin has problems without +energy when DP causes attack chain to cost more than your whole energy pool.
Some classes like paragon don't really need energy armor for most builds.
About degen. Everybody keeps saying HP mods are better vs degen. Well they don't decrease amount of healing that needs to be done because of degen. They do add a small buffer of HP before your party gets wiped on degen. You have HP total + healing available before you get wiped, and HP mod adds to HP total. But as I have shown here:
In PvE, virtually every point of damage you will take is armor respecting.
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Originally Posted by Spura
True. I usually run 1 sup or 2 major. People running several sup runes shouldn't be an argument in HP mod favor.
Some classes like paragon don't really need energy armor for most builds.
About degen. Everybody keeps saying HP mods are better vs degen. Well they don't decrease amount of healing that needs to be done because of degen. They do add a small buffer of HP before your party gets wiped on degen. You have HP total + healing available before you get wiped, and HP mod adds to HP total. But as I have shown here:
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Which translates into 9% more effective hit points against damage that does not ignore armor. For a character with a Superior Vigor and no other HP mods, that translates into an extra 48 HP worth of extra defense against armor respecting damage.|
Originally Posted by Spura
2 monks should be able to output 4000 HP of healing or more, and that is thousand or more HP saved with armor mods even when half of damage isn't affected by armor. You'd need something like 90% damage be degen or armor ignoring for HP mods to be better.
You'd need a really really high % of armor ignoring and degen to make armor mods not save you tons of HP.
Also about DoA: All the damage that works with GC/Winter is armor affected, that tells you how much damage there is armor affected. I think for DoA it is more important than elsewhere to not run sup runes and go for armor mods. I think is true though: If I have to get some HP, I will rather grab a HP weapon mod than grab HP armor insignia. Armor insignia offers 40 HP or 10 AL while X, weapon/offhand offers 30 HP or 5 AL. Spura
Let's see how anet thinks:
Oh lets make green items really good and powerful. How do we do that? Let's put the most expensive mods on them. Result: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Unique_...28Nightfall%29 Look at suffix colums. HP mod on nearly all green items. Lol @ anet. Yeah better not give people a choice and variety, let's give them more +30 HP greens, cos it is such joy to kill Malyx and get same stupid stats on an item that we get when we finish factions/nightfall. gjbrouhard
Why not run this equipment set for your caster:
Right hand: Energy +5 spear/sword of defense +5 Left hand: Health +30 focus item with either Attribute +1 or HSR/HCT. +17 energy (better than +15 max with a staff) +30 hp AND +5 armor! The only disadvantage is you do basically no damage with your weapon. Of course, you weren't doing much anyway... For rangers, dervishes, and assassins (w/ 2 handed weapons), the choice is strict: +5 AL or +30 hp. I think the case is clear that +5 AL is better for anyone who is not trying to avoid a PvP spike and engages in longer fights. For shield-carrying types: weapon +5 armor, shield +30 hp seems to make the most sense. As a side-note, extra HP can be a disadvantage for any blood-sacrificing necromancer. The sacrifice is always as % of total, so you sacrifice a greater amount of HP, which makes it harder to heal you...
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Spura
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In PvE, virtually every point of damage you will take is armor respecting.
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If I have to get some HP, I will rather grab a HP weapon mod than grab HP armor insignia. Armor insignia offers 40 HP or 10 AL while X, weapon/offhand offers 30 HP or 5 AL.
For PvE, I agree, you can get some excellent mods on your armor. For PvP, I think you're pretty much locked into health armor, since +health becomes so much more valuable at VoD or with DP. You can always swap back and forth between +armor and +health weapons, even in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Spura
Let's see how anet thinks
The man responsible for determining what mods go on green weapons is actually an old friend of mine. We talk pretty regularly and he's always torn three ways - between making items as good as possible, as interesting as possible, and as desirable as possible. Judge how you want, but game companies are selling sugar not nutrition - they give people what they want, not what's good for them.
Peace, -CxE
Mesmer in Need
Well, i think you should have both mods on both weapons. on my monk (for pvp) i use:
khepets rephuge (normal healing) and my defence set: long sword +7 armour casting with +5 defence mod and healing ankh energy +12 armour +5^50% gives me a nice boost against presuring melee characters, and it only gives me a few less energy.i just need to find a health set...
Relnor
I can see both sides of the argument, and both mods have their stregnths and weaknesses. I see a lot of people saying that their +hp mods have saved their lives many times. As a warrior, I've been in the same situiation many times. However, you can't just look at it and say, "If I took away 30hp, would I die?". What you need to say is, "If I had replaced my +hp mod with +al for this entire fight, would I still be alive?". So whats the answer? Well I'll tell you
I all comes down to the legnth of the fight. In the short term, +hp is better because of its imediate boost. In the long run however, +al will save you more life. It really depends on how fast you can kill the monster attacking you. Here is a comparison graph I just threw togeather to show the math behind it. It is not to scale. (scanner not working atm, so I took a pic)http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...kag/alvshp.gif As you can see, the +hp mod has an immediate advantage over the +al mod. However, the point where the two graphs cross is the point where the +al mod has saved you 30 hp. After that point, the +hp mod becomes useless (because you have already lost the 30hp) wile the +al mod continues to save you hp. As I look back at my graph, I realize that it is incorrect for a graph of the hp saved, but a correct graph of the usefullness of each mod. A correct graph of hp saved woul have a horizontal line at 30 hp while the +al line would be a streight, oblique line. Right now I don't have the time, but over the Christmas break, I think I may do some testing and derive a formula to fit these graphs.
Metanoia
Regarding the +Energy armour comments... From a Monk's perspective.
I'm not saying one type is necessarily better than another, you can decide that for yourself. There is just one thing that a lot of people seem to overlook when it comes to maximum energy... It makes a far bigger impact to your longevity than most people seem to realise. Example: Monk A, with a 4pip set @ 47 energy (30 Base, 5 Main Hand, 12 Offhand). vs Monk B, with a 4pip set @ 61 energy (30 Base, 5 Main Hand, 12 Offhand, 6 3*Rune of Attunement, 8 +e Insignia). That's what, an extra 14e worth of healing before things start not-living, right? Well, Not necessarily... Let's say both monks' groups are taking around 4pips of damage. That is, the energy required to heal the damage taken averages out at 4pips (1.33e/sec) of energy regeneration. Since both monks are breaking even, obviously maximum energy is rather superfluous here. But how about in a situation where you can't heal indefinately? This time both monks' groups are taking around 6pips of damage. That's a net of -2pips of energy regeneration (-0.66e/sec). We'll assume that dropping to 0 energy results in a death. Monk B will last aproximately 21 seconds longer than Monk A. In 21 seconds, Monk B will have gained an additional 27.72 energy through regen. That's a total of 41.72e(27.72+14) worth of healing before someone snuffs it. Note: The faster/slower you're losing energy the less/more net energy is gained from the higher maximum energy before things start not-living.
cellardweller
As backline character, I've got better things than either +hp or +al because if I've been attacked, I'm already failed at my job.
As a warrior on the other hand, I choose +hp every time. Like any good warrior, I go into a group 30-40 seconds ahead of my party which means no healing and no healing whatsoever and have to survive long enough without monk support to ensure I have obtained all aggro. Damage that is affected by armour has already been reduced to insignificant amounts by dolyaks, defensive stance, watch yourself so the extra 8% reduction doesn't make any difference whatsoever. The +hp from a fortitude mod buys your monk an extra second or two to reach you once you've given them the all clear.
floppinghog
this is like asking, why does an elementalist have alot of energy? bigger hp tank, more to hold before a fight, more to heal to full, more away from death.
who cares what the nubs buy in pve, it makes people money.
darkdawn
Health mods are ok to use, they help alot with runes. What I don't understand is that a perfect +30HP will cost twice as much as a +29HP mod...
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