2x Heroes Ascent

Ok, so I checked the first pages of Sard. and the index list of ideas, but I couldn't find this one.

So, the problem is as following: HA has a lot of players who don't want HA to be changed back, as well as players who DO want it back.

In polls it's usually around 50/50

The 2 main camps could be described as:

8v8 without heroes
6v6 with heroes

Now.....why not split HA?

Make a single 6v6 with heroes to sattisfy one group, and the other one with
8v8 w/o heroes.

Now offcourse having 2 HoH would be rather stupid, because the favor system wouldn't work anymore....so...make on HoH UW/FoW and the other something else, Zaishen elite, the elite missions in Elona, or make it one FoW one UW, or something like that.

Now Anet would simply have to reverse the updates on tombs=>HA back, and duplicate the code to somewhere else.

The same maps (offcourse broken tower would have to be changed back as well), the same reward system, only different locations, and 2 HoH's serving 2 different purposes.

This way you would please both+everyone could do both. Make a good PUG system, nerf SF, and HA will be awesome until the next problem

O by the way, moderators, if there was in fact already a suggestion like this one, please remove this thread, or close it or something, I'm not here to start a flamefest.

We already have 8v8. It's called GvG.

I personally don't mind the 6v6, it takes away from spikes, and cookie cutter builds like IWAY and VIMway. I want heroes out of HA (they're free fame, yes, but it's annoying fighting NPC's instead of people. This is PvP for balthazar's sake.)

My personal opinion is that heroes need to be removed from all non-Hero-Battle PvP. Heroes Ascent can stay 6v6, and if you want to play 8v8 that badly go GvG.

/notsigned.

-edit double post-

It's not so much my need for making HA 8v8 but to please the 2 major camps of this conflict.

What about the people who enjoyed the playstyle of 8v8 HA over GvG?

HA badly needs a fix, as of right now its in a coma on life support. HA should be brought back to the way it used to be, at least then it had a stable base of players. HA should not be just a place for GvGers and PVEers to get their 15 minutes of fun and then go back to what they were doing before.

A point brought up by the proponents of 6v6 HA is the fact that HA was dominated by masses of IWAY, and VIMWAY. That is false, IWAY was nerfed to hell and could only be run successfully by a select few, and was dieing out. VIMWAY was completely pathetic, and would get blown away by almost any decent group that knew how to counter it. In fact the change to 6v6 increased the power of VIMWAY for a short while.

ANET believes (or maybe they don't believe but don't want to admit their mistake) that the 6v6 change has been extremely well recieved by the vast majority of players. That is technicaly true but these people did not play HA in the first place and are not playing it now. They consist of GvGers, PVErs, people who were angry because they could not get into group. Most of these players do not give a rat's ass about what happens to HA as long as they have their 15 minutes of fun. To see the decline in the number of players just look at the number of International Districts, there are now half as many as before the 6v6 change.

In order to save HA Anet needs to appoint a PVP representative who makes appearances in ID1 (Gaile Gray would do fine.) So that the voice of the HA community not random people who have never HAed in their life is heard and when major changes are going to be made.

8V8 should come back.

Burial mounds brought back with improvements.

A beter lfg system, a simple interface with a listof the group leaders' names and what they are looking for would do.


Maybe a return to 5 team halls to prevent hall skipping and holding with builds like paragonway. I'm sure this would bring back the old problems of 5 team halls, but I don't know if they would be worth it.

Fix rubberbanding on relic runs, come on ANET its not the Kanaxai aspect of scorpions.

Create a seperate 6v6 arena to appease the diehard 6v6 fans (maybe make TA 6v6)

Add a tutorial to teach noobs about the maps, and the mechanics.

Get rid of Arena unlocking sytem, I'm sure some noobs don't even know what or where HA is because of this.

....... HA/Tombs was 8v8 for over 18 months and its totally different from GvG, it was also a lot better than it is now. And i'd rather fight iway after iway after iway than this shite.


/signed for a seperate hero anniahaltion(sp) arena, the current hero battles suck btw
meh they wont bring back 8v8 HA but we can only hope.

If people want to play with heros stick it out the way and out of the favor system.

My suggestion:

Three HA levels:

Level 1: 6 vs 6 with heroes and henchmans (fame for bronze rank emotes)
Level 2: 6 vs 6 humans only (fame for silver rank emotes)
Level 3: 8 vs 8 humans only (fame for gold rank emotes)

OR

Two HA levels:

Level 1: 6 vs 6 with heroes and henchmans (fame for bronze rank emotes)
Level 2: 8 vs 8 humans only (fame for gold rank emotes)

Each HA level have identical maps and rules. Only the highest HA level is for favors. First you must gain enough ranks in level 1 to proceed level 2, etc.

People from lower levels can't join to high levels and vice versa or if people from high levels could join to lower levels, they will not gain any faction or other rewards.

The problem with earlier HA was that experienced people farmed easy faction and fame against pug teams. Now pugs and some experienced people use AI with godly reflexes to farm fame or simply make it boring. My solution could be one way to satisfy both pugs and experienced players.

i bet this one will be closed pretty soon too as i doubt Anet cares about HA at all, also quote from other post "Gaile was in the international district of Kamedan on Holloween and said it will not be changed back. They believe it has improved the situation enourmously."

enourmously enourmously enourmously enourmously enourmously enourmously enourmously enourmously ..........

The number of districts and real players are all time low. I have given up ^^

ANet should admit it's catastrophic mistake and make the needed changes to at least bring HA back to what it WAS. I'd forgive them if they did.

-Jessyi

Eh...I'd agree that this change wasn't for the best...it may be just me...but I still think back when HoH was still in tombs and before iway...that was totally fun. Tombs now is just...bleh.

If I were king I'd:

Make HA PVP-only, as this has always been a place where PVP'ers could go to enjoy PVP.

Let PVE'ers unlock UW and FoW by doing what they enjoy - PVE.

Make Hero Battles straight annihilation, and give a better reward - a title track, or special emotes, or something.

Let's get rid of FoW, we already have underword...
Seriously, some people...

/signed.
The closer HA is to the way is was before, the better. This includes 8v8, no heroes, lever-less scarred earth, etc...

/half-signed

I like 6 vs 6, it makes it easier for non guild people to get a group, and it actually makes for interesting play, rather than spike after spike, or iway etc. However, I believe heroes should be ousted. Hero vs hero is an excellent place and allows for a full party of heroes. but..

THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE WANT HEROES IN HA IS SO THEY CAN DISTINGUISH THEMSELVES AS GOOD PLAYERS. IF HERO VS HERO HAD A RANK, THERE WOULD BE NO BICKERING.

And of course I suggest the elo ranking, which is the best ranking system possible for any 1 player vs 1 player.

I'm glad you aren't a king because that is possibly the stupidest idea I have ever read.

Personally I like 6v6 HA, it makes forming a group take less time, it removes the hold all night builds from HoH, and matches are faster paced and more fun (for the most part.) I agree with heroes being removed from it - but we'll get that if/when anet decides to. I don't think they'll change it back to 8v8.

Does it need fixing? Yes. Will whining constantly make them change it back to 8v8? Doubt it.

Not whining, coming up with solutions, too bad Anet ignores pvp alltogether.

/not signed

simply that I prefer HA this way, you can call me what ever the hell you want for it; this is my opinion, k?

And did you actually read what I said? You would still have this HA, and another one. And I do believe they should be treated equally, in favor, in fame and in prizes, and yes you can reason that one HA would be much more easy than the other one, so perhaps 2 different titles, not different emotes or anything, with 2 different titles players can say which one they prefer instead of Anet telling us which one is superior over the other.

sorry, my bad, I mis-interpreted your first post

I think t may be a good idea, how ANET would implement it would be interesting.

*cough*
Where have u been these last 2 weeks.
Sierra para, Nine Inch Veils, Real Teazer, Power and Entre mi casa, all running uber holding builds and holding for 20+ games every time. That rarely happened in 8v8. Now im sure they r all good players and all, but they would never ever hold (or have never held) for more than 6 or 7 games in 8v8.

your post is 234564x post of its kind.

/signed ofc
But anet has more important thing to think about than PvP, like this here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=116742

The problem with tombs was never the party size, it was the format of the arena itself. The cap and hold mechanic is what encourages ultra defensive holding builds, this is further rewarded by the fact that there are really only two annihilation maps after Underworld… yet two other alter maps.

Tombs never needed a reduction in party size, it needed more diversity in maps, game types and win conditions. Instead of reducing the amount of players you have to work with, the format itself should discourage spikes and holding builds. With new game types and win conditions you could limit the success of anything but a balanced build, simply because spikes would lack the utility to really compete.

The hero’s susceptibility to interrupts, body blocks and energy denial need to be changed as well as the win condition for the Hall of Heroes itself. A HoH that has multiple game types and win conditions would encourage more balanced play, and put spike gimmicks and defensive builds at a disadvantage.



For those proposing two version of tombs, I know you think you’re being creative, but just stop, please. You’re failing to even think about the problems present in the tombs format, and aren’t really offering anything but overcomplicated solutions that won’t work in the first place.


6v6 was such a poorly thought out, half-assed “fix” to a problem Anet seems to be unwilling to solve, it makes me wonder what’s to come for Guild Wars pvp. Please reinstate 8v8 and fix the actually issues with the format.

erm.. except 6 vs 6 does in fact solve it very simply. As for diversity, HA has many maps and win conditions I think anets worked hard enough on that. The ultradefnsive builds is also due to there being 3 groups fighting in the halls at once. If you go all out agressive on one, the other will destroy you. I think it should be just a one group on one group :P

6v6 hasn't solved anything, there are still spike builds, holding builds, fame farming builds and builds than generally take 20+ minutes to beat on non-alter maps. None of those things are fun to play or play against, and none lend anything to competitive pvp play.

Furthermore, even Izzy has said that Guild Wars pvp is balanced around 8v8, making a 6v6 arena greatly reduces the options for utility when creating builds and creates a build wars scenario.

Also, Tombs doesn't have many maps; there are only 7 before you reach halls now. And there are only 3 game types/win conditions involved in those maps: relic run, annihilation and alter. So what exactly are you talking about?

Every other aspect of this game has been updated with the new chapters, but Tombs was left to stagnate and degenerate until the 6v6 update, which, amazingly enough, caused even more players to quit (because it didn't address a single issue of the tombs format).

Or we could go to logic class and see that PvP = player v. player, not player v. AI. It's great that you want to solo HoH with your heroes, but that's what TotPK is for. If you don't like playing with/against PLAYERS, go pve.

Actually that would be Philosophy of Language, or Semantics.

But as for the idea: I'm not categorically opposed to the idea of a 6v6 arena or a 6v6 hero arena (please note the specific distinction). So long as the maps are balanced around the format I don't really see an issue with it. I do somewhat question the purpose but that is not precisely an objection. I am however fervently for 8v8 Ha without heroes for a variety of reasons I won't go into detail on here. A quick runthrough would include points about utility and mechanism ratios, accessibility, and organization advancement.

B Ephekt makes the point about the composition of HA maps. He is, of course, correct. The format of these maps provides exponential (multiplicative?) rewards for doing better on the top maps, and the top maps all reward a certain sort of defensive strategy.

well as i said earlier, I'm against HA having heroes, there's already Hero vs hero. Naturally few people do it because there is no reward: no ranking, and poor faction compared to ta and ra. So instead they flock to HA where they dont belong so they can get some sort of recognition for being a good player.

6 vs 6 does solve spiking groups completely, however. Its true spike groups can exist, but they suck now. Think of it this way, if you have 700 people waiting to fire a volley at once, at least 20 of them will get it in less than 1/4 second apart making the spike unstoppable. That one less spiker in 6 vs 6 makes it far more difficult to spike.

As for people quitting due to 8 vs 8 turning 6 vs 6 I'm finding more and mroe this is simply not true. They're whining their asses off and then just coming back anyways. If you took away fame farming builds I bet you'd get an even bigger outcry, even tho fame farming is stupid.

I guess that's why I can think of at least 6 sucessful spike builds that worked in 6v6, and continue to work today. Yes, spike groups loss a signifigant amount of power, but they're still feasible with good players and a good build. 6v6 didn't address the reason spike groups were sucessful, however, which is the cap and hold mechanic; spike groups can pack in a ridiculous amount of defense while only having a bare minimum amount of offense required to score kills.

So, no, 6v6 didn't really effect spike builds "completely," or really much at all. People just don't PUG them anymore because the brainlessly simple to run builds like blood spike are now actually pretty hard to run sucessfully. Also, it's actually pretty easy for a 'balanced' build to spike effectively in 6v6.
I'm not really sure what you're basing this off of, but over 1/2 my friends list has either quit tombing all together, or only play when specifically asked to do so. I don't generally PUG either, but the international districts have siginifgantly less people than ever before, and skips occur more regularly than in 8v8. Furthermore, my entire guild and alliance are now more interested in pve than tombs, so I seriously doubt the accuracy of your claims.

As for fame farming, I don't really care as I don't play for fame. I could care less about people only interested in winning the first few maps for emotes, instead of actually learinging enough to get solid runs (which yield more fame anyway).

The fact still remains that the 6v6 change didn't really address any of the issues that have plagued tombs, they only removed the IWAY and blood spike PUGs, which I could honestly care less about.

i agree on the fact that the tombs need a rollback.

its so much free fame for any a lil bit good grp running around. 8vs8 was way more fun then the 6vs6.
first we had the condition over ... and now the overload of para holdings ... great "change" of creativity as they claimed (dead iway etc)

another point is that its so pathetic that you CAN take heros into the tombs and NOT in the team arena ... wtf ...i should be the other way round -.-

I do agree tombs should perhaps go back to 8 Vs 8 but i dont think Heros should be taken away. Yeah i now all u seasoned PvPers dont like them but deal with it, cause the old way u elitist didnt give anyone else a chance. As u all know there is only 1 way to earn fame - HA, its next to impossible to get accepted into a ful player team there unless u have to be Rank 3 or above. I openly admit im not exactly a pro at PvP but im better than alot of players ive seen pvping. I like to experience all the different things in Gw from PvE to PvP, dont take away the 1 way us unranked people can compete and have fun (which is what what is all about) I do like the idea of have stages with in HA, ranks 0-3 ranks 4-6, ranks 6+ but i dont think there are enough players to cope with the amount of battles, unless after say 5 (including the npcs battle) u auto go up into the next stage up during the remainder of ur winning streak. They could chang the rewards slightly then so the higher the lvl ur at the more fame u get.

No1 gave me a chance, should I give you one? no!
Am I preventing you from starting/joining a team and playing HA? no!
Regardless of your rank, if you are an anti-social player will you ever join good teams? no!!!

Seriously cut this "I want heroes because elitists dont let my join teams" crap, it is pure BS and Gaile et al are actually believing it and changing HA accordingly.
You wanna HA, do something about it and don't cry about players playing with similarly ranked players.

Finally registered here to add to this discussion...

I'm in favor of anything that will bring back player-vs-player 8 man old HA-style gameplay.

Fighting bots is not what I want to do. I enjoyed the full-fledged fast-paced 8vs8 of old HA. Reducing the teamsize, deleting maps and adding these bots were probably attempts to make HA seem fuller than it really is. As a result however, the number of actual players has sunk further (just look at the number of ID's), and the gameplay is a farce now.

I used to play HA a lot, and so did my guildies and the people on my friendslist. Almost everyone I know has withdrawn from HA and many have just about gone away from the game. The changes to HA have had a big impact on my game experience, and it's bad.

It's so ironic that the people who say that they like this 6v6 botfest or that say others shouldn't whine are those who either never played HA much, and thus have no real stake in it anyway, or those who abused it endlessly with IWAY fame grinding. Funny how you don't care for the gameplay you never really enjoyed to start with. I guess you can go farm greens now instead? Would you like a "xx number of greens farmed" emote with that?

I know its unbelievable man...
I remember just after the first weekend 6v6 people from [Eat] started posting on the forums saying that they won all their games and HA was a joke as it is and it should be 6v6. Well since it was changed i havent seen anyone from [Eat] (now [kThx]) in HA. Now they are great players no doubt about that, but I find it extremely ironic that those that wanted 6v6 arent playing it anymore, kinda sad actually. This is just an example and i mean absolutely no offense to any1 in [kThx].

The most important thing is to remove heroes and limit henchmen to two per party. Then we will see the effect on gameplay. Untill this is done we cannot have a decent discussion on which type of HA is or was beter.

There is nothing wrong with 6v6 IMO providing the teams are actually human. Stomping wammo heroes with mending is not as much fun as stomping other players.

Joe

-_- You can discuss removing heroes/not removing heroes in 10.000 other threads. Please ,this thread is about splitting HA.

Oh and tomcruisejr, forgive me for not getting your post on top of this page :P