Is it me or is the monk, mes or necro with SOJ or IW or SS now doing the heaviest damage. This is just plain strange i can understand that they should have maybe the best defence with spells but surly they shouldnt do the most group damage. I have been playing with making my ranger imortal and finally got a substainable build and yup i cant do any good group damage. So i gave him an axe with cyclone chop and poison (axe at 12) and still he cant do as much damage as SOJ at around 45 per hit to the whole group.
Is it just me or is this somehow wrong?
Why is my Monk the most group damage dealer!
darrengordon
Yanman.be
You're not made for damage using that build.
Learn the game mechanics more, maybe you'll know why.
If you're fighting level 24s, your axe will do less damage due to the armour level and level difference. SoJ and SS and IW all ignore armour.
Learn the game mechanics more, maybe you'll know why.
If you're fighting level 24s, your axe will do less damage due to the armour level and level difference. SoJ and SS and IW all ignore armour.
First Healer Monk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
If you're fighting level 24s, your axe will do less damage due to the armour level and level difference. SoJ and SS and IW all ignore armour.
Just as you say, Ynaman. The armor will give high boost against an axe-wielding Ranger, even when you take your axe-mastery to 12.
Though if you wouldn't look so much to your amount of damage, but go for the interupts by example, and then make sure you survive there damage, you may be killing foes slow, but effective.
Though if you wouldn't look so much to your amount of damage, but go for the interupts by example, and then make sure you survive there damage, you may be killing foes slow, but effective.
Yanman.be
omg it's Yanman not Ynaman!!!!1111oneoneone
Rangers with bows could really be usefull with interupts, and other sources of group aid ( traps, spirits ). Barrage + savage + distracting shot is a pretty good combo if you want to still do damage.
Rangers with bows could really be usefull with interupts, and other sources of group aid ( traps, spirits ). Barrage + savage + distracting shot is a pretty good combo if you want to still do damage.
darrengordon
errr hello, please read the thread. So you are telling me that in your mind a ranger should NOT be able to do as much damage as a monk!
I have no problem what so ever killing unlimted number of monsters with my monk however im trying to say that in my mind a monk or necro should not be the most effective damage dealler to groups.
I know the game mechanics very well thanks, my thread is stating that its weird that a monk can do more damage than a phyiscal build not that i dont know why they are doing more damage.
You seemed a little vague of the damage mechincs for level 24 so i will explain as you seem to like flaming people without knowing crap about them.
A warrior at level 20 with a 12 in axe, fighting a level 20 monster with 60 armor, does the base damage of the weapon, this also assumes that the foe is completly free of buffs etc, and a warrior at level 20 with 4 in axe, fighting a level 20 moster with 60 armor will do half the base damage of the weapon. Now if we take the preceeding example and increase the wariors axe to 16 damage by a pro-rata ratio the base damage will increase by 15 percent (as you will know this is not a strt line the damage is exponential). If you are looking at armor pen then this effects the base armor damage not the mod. Damage is then applied once the final damage total has then been calculated, subtract the damage reduction from that total debofe applying the damage however i wasnt looking at armor pen just strt damage so dont worry for now. So if we look at me using an axe at lvl 12 i will do the base damage stated on the axe to a level 20 monster with 60 armor less the reduction from the lvl 24 monster with XX armor, if we go pro-rata as i cant be assed to work out fully say that a level 24 will have approx a 20% increase in armor this means that he will do approx 33% damage redcution as for every 40 in armor the damage is halved. This now means that the axe im using will do 30% less damage (100/40*12).
So yeah i guess your right i need to learn more on the damage mechanics ..... im really hoping somone like you can teach me though. Thanks for the thoughts.
And please in future rather than wasting your time criticising others why dont you try to help them.
I have no problem what so ever killing unlimted number of monsters with my monk however im trying to say that in my mind a monk or necro should not be the most effective damage dealler to groups.
I know the game mechanics very well thanks, my thread is stating that its weird that a monk can do more damage than a phyiscal build not that i dont know why they are doing more damage.
You seemed a little vague of the damage mechincs for level 24 so i will explain as you seem to like flaming people without knowing crap about them.
A warrior at level 20 with a 12 in axe, fighting a level 20 monster with 60 armor, does the base damage of the weapon, this also assumes that the foe is completly free of buffs etc, and a warrior at level 20 with 4 in axe, fighting a level 20 moster with 60 armor will do half the base damage of the weapon. Now if we take the preceeding example and increase the wariors axe to 16 damage by a pro-rata ratio the base damage will increase by 15 percent (as you will know this is not a strt line the damage is exponential). If you are looking at armor pen then this effects the base armor damage not the mod. Damage is then applied once the final damage total has then been calculated, subtract the damage reduction from that total debofe applying the damage however i wasnt looking at armor pen just strt damage so dont worry for now. So if we look at me using an axe at lvl 12 i will do the base damage stated on the axe to a level 20 monster with 60 armor less the reduction from the lvl 24 monster with XX armor, if we go pro-rata as i cant be assed to work out fully say that a level 24 will have approx a 20% increase in armor this means that he will do approx 33% damage redcution as for every 40 in armor the damage is halved. This now means that the axe im using will do 30% less damage (100/40*12).
So yeah i guess your right i need to learn more on the damage mechanics ..... im really hoping somone like you can teach me though. Thanks for the thoughts.
And please in future rather than wasting your time criticising others why dont you try to help them.
Yanman.be
Some of your calculations make sense, but I don't know if they are correct.
But, a monk's holy damage simply ignores armour. SS too. IW too.
SS on a level 20 char is thus less effective than SS on a level 28 char: it will do the same amount of damage. It's better if you whack the level 20 with an axe, and hit the level 28 with SS.
It's how it works. Not how you think it should work. It's balanced the way it is right now. Also, if you use attack skills, you too can use armour ignoring damage ( +XX from barrage for example )
But, a monk's holy damage simply ignores armour. SS too. IW too.
SS on a level 20 char is thus less effective than SS on a level 28 char: it will do the same amount of damage. It's better if you whack the level 20 with an axe, and hit the level 28 with SS.
It's how it works. Not how you think it should work. It's balanced the way it is right now. Also, if you use attack skills, you too can use armour ignoring damage ( +XX from barrage for example )
darrengordon
Sorry Yanman your totally missing the point ignore the level or damage they do i know full stop that the monk or necro will do more damage end of story i have tried virtually every possible build that i can thing of to solo with ie tainted flesh, iw ,ss, soj, bonnetis / gladiators, whirl def / poison, degens, firey sprint, LWK and so on and so on for monks and stupid amounts for rangers, warriors etc.
What im saying is that monks normally heal or protect not damage, necro raise dead or curse so why is the best method of damaging to a group from a monk or necro not from a ranger or deverish or warrior.
IE why can i do more damage with a monk or necro to groups than i can with other chars it just dosnt seem right in the sceme of things.
Oh yeah and by the way my calcs are correct i learnt em from a book that the creaters of guild wars wrote. (mind you i guess they may of cahnged the method recently the book is a bit old)
What im saying is that monks normally heal or protect not damage, necro raise dead or curse so why is the best method of damaging to a group from a monk or necro not from a ranger or deverish or warrior.
IE why can i do more damage with a monk or necro to groups than i can with other chars it just dosnt seem right in the sceme of things.
Oh yeah and by the way my calcs are correct i learnt em from a book that the creaters of guild wars wrote. (mind you i guess they may of cahnged the method recently the book is a bit old)
Narutoscryed
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrengordon
Sorry Yanman your totally missing the point ignore the level or damage they do i know full stop that the monk or necro will do more damage end of story i have tried virtually every possible build that i can thing of to solo with ie tainted flesh, iw ,ss, soj, bonnetis / gladiators, whirl def / poison, degens, firey sprint, LWK and so on and so on for monks and stupid amounts for rangers, warriors etc.
What im saying is that monks normally heal or protect not damage, necro raise dead or curse so why is the best method of damaging to a group from a monk or necro not from a ranger or deverish or warrior.
IE why can i do more damage with a monk or necro to groups than i can with other chars it just dosnt seem right in the sceme of things.
Oh yeah and by the way my calcs are correct i learnt em from a book that the creaters of guild wars wrote. (mind you i guess they may of cahnged the method recently the book is a bit old) sorry please dont be offended by my responce
you are taking into account the monk dealing one chug of soj... in the time it takes for an mino to get back up from one hit of soj.. your warrior can have about three hits into the mino for much more damage than one soj..
as for ss and iw.. they top out at about 40 aswell.. so that is realitivly weak... and iw is pretty weak aswell because it only takes into account attack speed and really only can attack a max of three baddies at a time.
what i believe you are refering to is dps or damage per second.. and yes spells like spitefull spirit beat the crap outa pretty much every thing other than sliver armor and a 30 baddie pull on that one... but that is to be expected
but take triple chop and cyclone axe and walk into a group of vermin or somthing and fire them off in succession and tell me that does less damage per second than soj.... and i will tell ya that i will have whatever your smokin
also for the most part warriors can pretty much still take the cake on single target damage per second... because spells like spitefull and sliver and soj.. all rely on the target taking an action against you for the damage to be dealt.. so if your wammo is attacking at the same speed as the target.. than your wammo will obviously outdamage the target seeings how skills like cleave and exicutioners strike have a damage bonus that almosts beats ss and soj alone...
so hope that helps ya...
but yes monks do totally ruin every other profession in my opinion...
What im saying is that monks normally heal or protect not damage, necro raise dead or curse so why is the best method of damaging to a group from a monk or necro not from a ranger or deverish or warrior.
IE why can i do more damage with a monk or necro to groups than i can with other chars it just dosnt seem right in the sceme of things.
Oh yeah and by the way my calcs are correct i learnt em from a book that the creaters of guild wars wrote. (mind you i guess they may of cahnged the method recently the book is a bit old) sorry please dont be offended by my responce
you are taking into account the monk dealing one chug of soj... in the time it takes for an mino to get back up from one hit of soj.. your warrior can have about three hits into the mino for much more damage than one soj..
as for ss and iw.. they top out at about 40 aswell.. so that is realitivly weak... and iw is pretty weak aswell because it only takes into account attack speed and really only can attack a max of three baddies at a time.
what i believe you are refering to is dps or damage per second.. and yes spells like spitefull spirit beat the crap outa pretty much every thing other than sliver armor and a 30 baddie pull on that one... but that is to be expected
but take triple chop and cyclone axe and walk into a group of vermin or somthing and fire them off in succession and tell me that does less damage per second than soj.... and i will tell ya that i will have whatever your smokin
also for the most part warriors can pretty much still take the cake on single target damage per second... because spells like spitefull and sliver and soj.. all rely on the target taking an action against you for the damage to be dealt.. so if your wammo is attacking at the same speed as the target.. than your wammo will obviously outdamage the target seeings how skills like cleave and exicutioners strike have a damage bonus that almosts beats ss and soj alone...
so hope that helps ya...
but yes monks do totally ruin every other profession in my opinion...
darrengordon
Firstly Narutoscryed there is no way i could ever be upset with your comments as i have read most of your threads and find them really really helpfull and insightfull, thanks for sharing your knowledge which is exactly what i want to do! i often find whats obvious to one is hidden to another so its great to get here to discuss things.
Sorry about my last posts gents / ladies i just get annoyed when the first thing people come on here and say is bloody noob or try and say that you know nothing when they dont even know you (you find that these people normally come here to copy not to invent), if you cant say anthing good or helpful then dont say anything at all.
Rant over......
Never seen warrior using both cyclone and triple chop which gives me a whole new idea!!
Agree totally that a warrior will kick arse with anything else one on one but i love figuring out builds for soloing groups so thats was my intention of the thread, and to me solo 1 on 1 takes too long i like to run in grab a whole bunch and watch em die the more the merrier, in fact my fav build at the moment is urs i think with the Shield of absorb! i use the enchant +30% two energy regains and then just run a echo SOJ for things like howlers or a resolve SOJ for non interupt builds like hackets etc. Drops em v quick even big groups yeah they run but then come back and die lol.
But just find it strange and sad a bit now that all the good builds revolve around a monk protect spirit, in my opionion (though i dont want it to happen as i use monk all the time for solo lol) a monk should be able to sheild (absorb / prevent damage) and heal well thru spells (not armor) but should not be able to damage that much, where as a ranger should be able to damage at range but not sheild as much and a warrior should be able to damage and take damage at mellee but get hurt by spells etc etc. Just seems at the mo that if they ever nerfed the protective spirit then all of us would be screwed lol (appart from the cookie cutter warrior builds)
Sorry about my last posts gents / ladies i just get annoyed when the first thing people come on here and say is bloody noob or try and say that you know nothing when they dont even know you (you find that these people normally come here to copy not to invent), if you cant say anthing good or helpful then dont say anything at all.
Rant over......
Never seen warrior using both cyclone and triple chop which gives me a whole new idea!!
Agree totally that a warrior will kick arse with anything else one on one but i love figuring out builds for soloing groups so thats was my intention of the thread, and to me solo 1 on 1 takes too long i like to run in grab a whole bunch and watch em die the more the merrier, in fact my fav build at the moment is urs i think with the Shield of absorb! i use the enchant +30% two energy regains and then just run a echo SOJ for things like howlers or a resolve SOJ for non interupt builds like hackets etc. Drops em v quick even big groups yeah they run but then come back and die lol.
But just find it strange and sad a bit now that all the good builds revolve around a monk protect spirit, in my opionion (though i dont want it to happen as i use monk all the time for solo lol) a monk should be able to sheild (absorb / prevent damage) and heal well thru spells (not armor) but should not be able to damage that much, where as a ranger should be able to damage at range but not sheild as much and a warrior should be able to damage and take damage at mellee but get hurt by spells etc etc. Just seems at the mo that if they ever nerfed the protective spirit then all of us would be screwed lol (appart from the cookie cutter warrior builds)
Stemnin
I don't like rangers, mostly because I play casters, choking gas cough cough.
In my mind, they aren't damage dealers, they can shut down casters (savage, distracting, choking gas, concussion shot..) pretty good, and slow down warriors (cripple).
In my mind, they aren't damage dealers, they can shut down casters (savage, distracting, choking gas, concussion shot..) pretty good, and slow down warriors (cripple).
darrengordon
fair point, rangers really arnt max damage dealers but thats exactly my point nor is the monk! What im trying to say and i guess im not saying it well at all lol, sorry all. is that why are monks for me at the moment dealing the most damage to groups on a solo build!
Guildmaster Cain
Against big groups:
Famine + Sympatetic/Ancestors Visage or
Sliver Armor
do the most damage per second. The first one would eradicate all nearby lifeforms, provided that you are hit by melee attacks.
The second would take down any high lvl, provided that you are hit by enough enemies and can keep the enchantment on long enough (use glyph of renewal)
Or you could try Sand Shards + Signet of Midnight, vs closely packed enemies.
Famine + Sympatetic/Ancestors Visage or
Sliver Armor
do the most damage per second. The first one would eradicate all nearby lifeforms, provided that you are hit by melee attacks.
The second would take down any high lvl, provided that you are hit by enough enemies and can keep the enchantment on long enough (use glyph of renewal)
Or you could try Sand Shards + Signet of Midnight, vs closely packed enemies.
Anarion Silverhand
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrengordon
You seemed a little vague of the damage mechincs for level 24 so i will explain as you seem to like flaming people without knowing crap about them.
And please in future rather than wasting your time criticising others why dont you try to help them. Please stop making it look like Yanman was flaming you. He was in fact helping you. Just because you don't like his answer, it doesn't mean he is flaming you.
And please in future rather than wasting your time criticising others why dont you try to help them. Please stop making it look like Yanman was flaming you. He was in fact helping you. Just because you don't like his answer, it doesn't mean he is flaming you.
Poison Ivy
Because everything is attacking you and you have SoJ on, and in PvE, monsters don't reconize that they should stop due to their AI.
Also SoJ is suited for brainless things that attacks you non stop, and other skills of other professions arn't.
Dude just make your point, is this thread made simply to express that you love farming, soloing and SoJ, because it's all I could gather after trying to understand your...eh...unique vocabulary.
Just what the hell is the point of this thread, discuss why Anet gave us such Monk skills to work with? Well we're not Anet, so I have no idea how you will get your answers.
Also SoJ is suited for brainless things that attacks you non stop, and other skills of other professions arn't.
Dude just make your point, is this thread made simply to express that you love farming, soloing and SoJ, because it's all I could gather after trying to understand your...eh...unique vocabulary.
Just what the hell is the point of this thread, discuss why Anet gave us such Monk skills to work with? Well we're not Anet, so I have no idea how you will get your answers.
darrengordon
Hi there Anarion when someone says to me "learn the game mechnics more then your know why", then yup sorry that is like someone calling me a noob hence yup flaming, sorry im a sensative thing lol but i have to say that i may well have my definition of flaming totally wrong and if so apologise to all as im new to these posts. My point here is as it always has been if you dont like it then explain why rather than saying to the person who wrote it that he or she knows nothing and if you cant do that then dont do anything.
Posion i have been trying to make my point since the quick first comment sorry if im not getting it across, thats why my guides always suck as i cant explain thing that well, im a technical sales manager hence always a little vague and rarly make much sense! my point was a really quick incredably simple one it was a simple observation not meant for a build etc etc it was...
Why do monks deal the most damage to group when soloing. Thats it
Its kind of ironic, my point is in my opinion monks are not meant to deal damage.
It was just an observation im not asking guild wars to change or anything like that but this is a chat forum and i just wanted to chat lol.
Anyway never mind i think im never gona make myself clear!
Posion i have been trying to make my point since the quick first comment sorry if im not getting it across, thats why my guides always suck as i cant explain thing that well, im a technical sales manager hence always a little vague and rarly make much sense! my point was a really quick incredably simple one it was a simple observation not meant for a build etc etc it was...
Why do monks deal the most damage to group when soloing. Thats it
Its kind of ironic, my point is in my opinion monks are not meant to deal damage.
It was just an observation im not asking guild wars to change or anything like that but this is a chat forum and i just wanted to chat lol.
Anyway never mind i think im never gona make myself clear!
random.name
Firstly I assume that your main beef is solo farming since a SoJ is next to useless in a normal PvE situation. The reason why the solo monk is such a popular farming char is not because of SoJ, but because of the survivability (PS, SB, HB etc,). There is skills out there that deals comparative, and in some cases more damage than SoJ. For some farming I choose a different damage dealing skill completely.
Lastly you made the point that in your opinion a monk should heal, and not damage. If that is the case I can just as well say that a ranger's place in a group is to interrupt only, or that a warrior should drop all attack skills and only take tanking skills. Taking it even further why dont they just remove smiting from monk, sword and axe from warrior, expertise from ranger, restoration from Rit, etc.
Lastly you made the point that in your opinion a monk should heal, and not damage. If that is the case I can just as well say that a ranger's place in a group is to interrupt only, or that a warrior should drop all attack skills and only take tanking skills. Taking it even further why dont they just remove smiting from monk, sword and axe from warrior, expertise from ranger, restoration from Rit, etc.
darrengordon
OK ok ok, i give in i have no idea how you have come to the conclusion that i dont like monks in fact i specifically state above that i love my monk and it is one of my favouroute builds, i have used a 55 monk since day 1 when the origional video came out showing that you could farm ice imps, then went to the SB monk and now use sheild monk, in fact you can see my post with 2500 views where i started a new earth based monk (not as good as sheild though unfortunatly) again in fact i praise the creator of the shield monk below saying his builds are great and have the utmost respect for people like KCP and Narutoscryed.
My only question was ".... isnt it strange that the monk does the most damage to a group...", not that they shouldnt or they should only heal or so on but isnt it just strange considering and yup deep breath here that monks arnt generally considered as damage dealers.
LOL i officially give in in getting anyone to understand that i find it a bit weird that the monks do the most damage to a group out of all the solo builds i know.
Thats all ..... i give up lol have fun all.
I have to say that i am amazed at the amount of people that seem to just reply negativly at these threads its a real shame as a lot of people are just throwing out ideas, look below at this thread and you will see a few people who want to help each other such as Guildmaster Cain, Anarion Silverhand (yeah he is saying im wrong but i guess i am i didnt realise what flaming was), Stemnin and Narutoscryed the rest just seem to throw random negative comments in.
Oh well.
My only question was ".... isnt it strange that the monk does the most damage to a group...", not that they shouldnt or they should only heal or so on but isnt it just strange considering and yup deep breath here that monks arnt generally considered as damage dealers.
LOL i officially give in in getting anyone to understand that i find it a bit weird that the monks do the most damage to a group out of all the solo builds i know.
Thats all ..... i give up lol have fun all.
I have to say that i am amazed at the amount of people that seem to just reply negativly at these threads its a real shame as a lot of people are just throwing out ideas, look below at this thread and you will see a few people who want to help each other such as Guildmaster Cain, Anarion Silverhand (yeah he is saying im wrong but i guess i am i didnt realise what flaming was), Stemnin and Narutoscryed the rest just seem to throw random negative comments in.
Oh well.
slimreb
I too find that in different situations some skills deal more damage than SoJ. Lets take for example a creature with an IAS that does melee damage. Which of these two skills would do more damage during the farm SoJ or Glads Defense?
Glads Defense would do more DPS than SoJ as they are attacking quicker and not being knocked down. Then since most people who run Glads for a farm run will take Deadly Reposte and Reposte that just adds more to the mix for DPS.
For the most part I have put my monk to the back burner when it comes to farming. Mainly because I am tired of using a monk and would rather come up with something else to farm groups with. Also because in some cases other professions can do it quicker. Take for example some of the new skills for ranger trappers. Now I can farm the trolls outside droks in no time flat as a R/N. Just trap, trap, trap, Mark of Pain, and then pull. Nothing more simple than that. They hit the traps and boom insta-dead. With Mark of Pain and the increase to laying down traps it does not take much time what-so-ever to take them down.
I though do not see why you are saying a monk should not deal damage. Monks can perform other jobs than just Heal or Protect, just like every other class can have multiple functions. I myself love to use a Smite monk when I can. I have come up with a job amount of smite builds that work great in a PvE group. With some of the skills out there now you can even perform a Prot/Smite build that works great in PvE also.
Overall I do not see a problem with the way things are right now.
Edit: You responded while I was typing so figured I would just edit this post.
I am not trying to be negative or anything with my post. I am just wanting to point out there are more options that will deal more damage to groups than SoJ depending on the make up of the group you are fighting.
Glads Defense would do more DPS than SoJ as they are attacking quicker and not being knocked down. Then since most people who run Glads for a farm run will take Deadly Reposte and Reposte that just adds more to the mix for DPS.
For the most part I have put my monk to the back burner when it comes to farming. Mainly because I am tired of using a monk and would rather come up with something else to farm groups with. Also because in some cases other professions can do it quicker. Take for example some of the new skills for ranger trappers. Now I can farm the trolls outside droks in no time flat as a R/N. Just trap, trap, trap, Mark of Pain, and then pull. Nothing more simple than that. They hit the traps and boom insta-dead. With Mark of Pain and the increase to laying down traps it does not take much time what-so-ever to take them down.
I though do not see why you are saying a monk should not deal damage. Monks can perform other jobs than just Heal or Protect, just like every other class can have multiple functions. I myself love to use a Smite monk when I can. I have come up with a job amount of smite builds that work great in a PvE group. With some of the skills out there now you can even perform a Prot/Smite build that works great in PvE also.
Overall I do not see a problem with the way things are right now.
Edit: You responded while I was typing so figured I would just edit this post.
I am not trying to be negative or anything with my post. I am just wanting to point out there are more options that will deal more damage to groups than SoJ depending on the make up of the group you are fighting.
Earth
You said monks/necro do most damage to a group, they give answers. Most of the necro spells are armor ignoring, if you play a smiting monk build you can do more damage then with a regular ranger build, even with poison + cyclone axe.
random.name
Again I point out that SoJ DOES NOT deal the most damage to a group in solo farming.
darrengordon
does no one actually see what im trying to say OMG.
STOP NOW i am not saying that monks should not do the most damage or that certain damage is armor ignoring and so on and so on and so on i really really dont care, FFS read what i am typing. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ IT.
I just find it strange that the monk build is one of the best ways to do group damage whether its SOJ, SS, IW they all do a constant 40 ish damage to a big group which is more than any other char can do to a big group.
Do you honestly belive that the monk should be the one that deals the most damage? really?
Im not saying i want it change just that its strange please for the love of anything stop saying that im against monks or rangers etc etc, look around i have posted a monk build i have posted a ranger trapper UW build above i have every char and play em all regualy i love the different styles.
STOP NOW i am not saying that monks should not do the most damage or that certain damage is armor ignoring and so on and so on and so on i really really dont care, FFS read what i am typing. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ IT.
I just find it strange that the monk build is one of the best ways to do group damage whether its SOJ, SS, IW they all do a constant 40 ish damage to a big group which is more than any other char can do to a big group.
Do you honestly belive that the monk should be the one that deals the most damage? really?
Im not saying i want it change just that its strange please for the love of anything stop saying that im against monks or rangers etc etc, look around i have posted a monk build i have posted a ranger trapper UW build above i have every char and play em all regualy i love the different styles.
Yanman.be
Game mechanic: Giving damage by your input is less rewarded than giving damage through the enemy's input.
If the enemy attacks when SoJ is on( and don't forget, it's an elite ), he will be punished for his behaviour.
If you simply attack the enemy, he can't help it.
That is a huge difference in how damage should be provided.
And no, I didn't mean to call you a noob.
If the enemy attacks when SoJ is on( and don't forget, it's an elite ), he will be punished for his behaviour.
If you simply attack the enemy, he can't help it.
That is a huge difference in how damage should be provided.
And no, I didn't mean to call you a noob.
darrengordon
really sorry Yanman take back everything i missinterpreted your statement.
LOL after this whole thread Yanman i think you really have hit the nail on the head, i can understand that philosophy totally it is the monsters chioce to attack and therfore the damage they are dealt back should be proportional these spells will do no damage unless it attacks therfore it has a choice. The Monk or the Necro spells used arnt direct damage but almost say a retaliation damage for being attacked hence they have a high damage output.
Yup that makes sense to me and actually answers the question i had really well. In essence for all those who still didnt get the question it answers it because these spells arnt damage they still fall under a monk banner of protection / retribution.
Cheers
LOL after this whole thread Yanman i think you really have hit the nail on the head, i can understand that philosophy totally it is the monsters chioce to attack and therfore the damage they are dealt back should be proportional these spells will do no damage unless it attacks therfore it has a choice. The Monk or the Necro spells used arnt direct damage but almost say a retaliation damage for being attacked hence they have a high damage output.
Yup that makes sense to me and actually answers the question i had really well. In essence for all those who still didnt get the question it answers it because these spells arnt damage they still fall under a monk banner of protection / retribution.
Cheers
Yanman.be
Exactly. If the monsters don't do anything, they don't take damage and SoJ or SS would still do less damage. SS is at it's best when it stops someone from playing. SoJ protects someone against many attacks. etc.
lundis
If you're that addicted to damage just make an ele and use some meteor showers -_-
Yanman.be
He's not addicted to damage, he just wants to know the reason.
random.name
Lol, what reason? Monk does not do the most damage... SS used right beats SoJ, certain Earth Elementalist setups beats SoJ, certain warrior setups beats SoJ, MM necro beats SoJ, MM Rit beats SoJ, Skilled trapper rangers beats SoJ... Get the picture?
Just because you have not used a build that beats SoJ, does not mean there isnt one...
Just because you have not used a build that beats SoJ, does not mean there isnt one...
Bloodied Blade
Well, your original post rather confused me...but from what I'm seeing, your basic thing is just that monks seem to do more solo dps than other classes.
You play a ranger according to your profession in your sig thingy (as do I)... Have you ever tried trapping before? It does a helluva lot more dps than SoJ (if you ignore setting up the traps). SV/AV/Famine on a fair-sized group is also YEARS faster.
SoJ is not the be-all end-all that you seem to believe that it is. As random.name has pointed out, almost anything in the game is better than using SoJ. SoJ only became famous because of the 55hp build and its ability to solo farm UW quick and efficiently.
It just seems that you think SoJ is better in your opinion because you're used to your dps coming from Cyclone Axe + Apply Poison. That's something like 8dps + Cyclone Axe's damage...which will lose out every single time to the 25ish dps of SoJ and its utility to KD things. If you use your traps, you can apply bleed, poison, blind, burning, cripple, daze, AND knock the mob down (yes, this is all doable in 1 build, just that your KD trap is weird in how you need to use it).
Here's an idea of what trappers can do compared to SoJ:
That's 20dps, + the traps' dps...my dust trap hits ~ 25s on an aataxe, so that's 45dps already while the dust is pulsing. I generally can drop 4+ of them, so that's 120dps before we look at the damage of the other traps. Over the 3 - 5 seconds of dust trap doing its dps (I think it's 3), that's 360 - 600 damage just off of degen + dust traps. Factor in the ~5dps from flame trap and that's another 60 - 100 dps *per flame trap*, which comes out to be a whopping 220 dps. That's a lvl 20 in any armor you choose dead in 3-4 seconds.
With each new trapper you gain an additional 220+ dps or so (I don't count barbed/spike trap in my dps calculations because they don't hit over time and it's late for me to be thinking). With just 2 rangers you now have 440 dps + the barbed/spike traps, which all together will kill almost anything under the sun.
I'll make a trapper run on trolls or something to try and get you some more precise figures (flame + dust + instant triggers).
Hope that helped a little... (oh, and the dps is actually a lot higher since it increases proportionally to the mobs hit, but dps is relative for this argument since SoJ is also an AoE).
One last little thing- most of this can be done under 70 seconds (I think the actual number is something like 41 seconds).
You play a ranger according to your profession in your sig thingy (as do I)... Have you ever tried trapping before? It does a helluva lot more dps than SoJ (if you ignore setting up the traps). SV/AV/Famine on a fair-sized group is also YEARS faster.
SoJ is not the be-all end-all that you seem to believe that it is. As random.name has pointed out, almost anything in the game is better than using SoJ. SoJ only became famous because of the 55hp build and its ability to solo farm UW quick and efficiently.
It just seems that you think SoJ is better in your opinion because you're used to your dps coming from Cyclone Axe + Apply Poison. That's something like 8dps + Cyclone Axe's damage...which will lose out every single time to the 25ish dps of SoJ and its utility to KD things. If you use your traps, you can apply bleed, poison, blind, burning, cripple, daze, AND knock the mob down (yes, this is all doable in 1 build, just that your KD trap is weird in how you need to use it).
Here's an idea of what trappers can do compared to SoJ:
That's 20dps, + the traps' dps...my dust trap hits ~ 25s on an aataxe, so that's 45dps already while the dust is pulsing. I generally can drop 4+ of them, so that's 120dps before we look at the damage of the other traps. Over the 3 - 5 seconds of dust trap doing its dps (I think it's 3), that's 360 - 600 damage just off of degen + dust traps. Factor in the ~5dps from flame trap and that's another 60 - 100 dps *per flame trap*, which comes out to be a whopping 220 dps. That's a lvl 20 in any armor you choose dead in 3-4 seconds.
With each new trapper you gain an additional 220+ dps or so (I don't count barbed/spike trap in my dps calculations because they don't hit over time and it's late for me to be thinking). With just 2 rangers you now have 440 dps + the barbed/spike traps, which all together will kill almost anything under the sun.
I'll make a trapper run on trolls or something to try and get you some more precise figures (flame + dust + instant triggers).
Hope that helped a little... (oh, and the dps is actually a lot higher since it increases proportionally to the mobs hit, but dps is relative for this argument since SoJ is also an AoE).
One last little thing- most of this can be done under 70 seconds (I think the actual number is something like 41 seconds).
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by lundis
If you're that addicted to damage just make an ele and use some meteor showers -_-
Another mindless Ele. Meteor Shower does NOT outdamage anything.
Antheus
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrengordon
does no one actually see what im trying to say OMG.
STOP NOW i am not saying that monks should not do the most damage or that certain damage is armor ignoring and so on and so on and so on i really really dont care, FFS read what i am typing. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ IT.
I just find it strange that the monk build is one of the best ways to do group damage whether its SOJ, SS, IW they all do a constant 40 ish damage to a big group which is more than any other char can do to a big group. If you go by sheer numbers, then SoJ deals high damage.
But this damage is highly conditional. VwK has even higher DPS, despite lower absolute damage, it doesn't knock down targets and deals damage more frequently.
But the key factor here is that SoJ damage is highly conditional. It only works against mobs. Another thing to consider is the overall output. SoJ can be kept up for a long time, perhaps even with echo. But apart from that, it's still conditional. As pointed out before, in just about any situation the damage it really does is insignificant and too unreliable.
Fire nukers don't require foes to attack a specific target. SS will trigger for its entire duration. IW will be driven by player.
SoJ and VwK both have very high damage output. They can due to being conditional. They require foes to attack a specific target. And that's something you cannot force or control. It's only exploitable against certain AI.
But in most cases, the fact that it does highest absolute damage is irrelevant compared to its overall damage output of a team.
STOP NOW i am not saying that monks should not do the most damage or that certain damage is armor ignoring and so on and so on and so on i really really dont care, FFS read what i am typing. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ IT.
I just find it strange that the monk build is one of the best ways to do group damage whether its SOJ, SS, IW they all do a constant 40 ish damage to a big group which is more than any other char can do to a big group. If you go by sheer numbers, then SoJ deals high damage.
But this damage is highly conditional. VwK has even higher DPS, despite lower absolute damage, it doesn't knock down targets and deals damage more frequently.
But the key factor here is that SoJ damage is highly conditional. It only works against mobs. Another thing to consider is the overall output. SoJ can be kept up for a long time, perhaps even with echo. But apart from that, it's still conditional. As pointed out before, in just about any situation the damage it really does is insignificant and too unreliable.
Fire nukers don't require foes to attack a specific target. SS will trigger for its entire duration. IW will be driven by player.
SoJ and VwK both have very high damage output. They can due to being conditional. They require foes to attack a specific target. And that's something you cannot force or control. It's only exploitable against certain AI.
But in most cases, the fact that it does highest absolute damage is irrelevant compared to its overall damage output of a team.
darrengordon
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, thanks everyone for your input but i dont think anyone except Yanman understands what im trying to say.
Bloodied babe, yup i tried trapping in fact my Guild is called Trap and without blowing our horn probably the best set of trappers in the game. If you want to increase the damage from dust use the echo. If you read the build i posted somewhere around here we duo UW with a hybrid dual echo and spike trap (yes one char uses 2 elites) build that lets us drop over 1100 damage in 30 secs without using sprits so you dont have to wait for the recharge. If you are a good trapper then come join us were always looking for re-cruits.
Before anyone else raves on about SOJ please read the whole thread i am making a PHILOSIPHICAL (lol dont think spelling is correct there) question i mention not justs monks in the early part but also Necro etc and not just SOJ in fact i list a tonne of em (SOJ, SS, VwK, Taitnted Flesh, Bonn / Glad etc etc) all which i use.
The question which has now been excentally answered by Yanman was a simple one but i think it turned out harder then the question to life the universe and everything.
It was why can a monk or necro do more damage through a skill than most other melle characters when fighting a group as to me thats a bit strange. The answer was they dont these skills are more retaliation based ie if the creature didnt attack then they woudlnt get hurt so that answers my question as in my mind it fits with a monk or necors character that they should not be able to do high damage attacks and with these skills they are not the damage is thru lets call it retribution not direct attack damage.
I have all chars at lvl 20 and use them reguly or though my fav is my origional Ranger just because he was my first one.
I think that this thrad is now resolved so please feel free to JUST LET IT DIE
Bloodied babe, yup i tried trapping in fact my Guild is called Trap and without blowing our horn probably the best set of trappers in the game. If you want to increase the damage from dust use the echo. If you read the build i posted somewhere around here we duo UW with a hybrid dual echo and spike trap (yes one char uses 2 elites) build that lets us drop over 1100 damage in 30 secs without using sprits so you dont have to wait for the recharge. If you are a good trapper then come join us were always looking for re-cruits.
Before anyone else raves on about SOJ please read the whole thread i am making a PHILOSIPHICAL (lol dont think spelling is correct there) question i mention not justs monks in the early part but also Necro etc and not just SOJ in fact i list a tonne of em (SOJ, SS, VwK, Taitnted Flesh, Bonn / Glad etc etc) all which i use.
The question which has now been excentally answered by Yanman was a simple one but i think it turned out harder then the question to life the universe and everything.
It was why can a monk or necro do more damage through a skill than most other melle characters when fighting a group as to me thats a bit strange. The answer was they dont these skills are more retaliation based ie if the creature didnt attack then they woudlnt get hurt so that answers my question as in my mind it fits with a monk or necors character that they should not be able to do high damage attacks and with these skills they are not the damage is thru lets call it retribution not direct attack damage.
I have all chars at lvl 20 and use them reguly or though my fav is my origional Ranger just because he was my first one.
I think that this thrad is now resolved so please feel free to JUST LET IT DIE
Anarion Silverhand
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrengordon
Hi there Anarion when someone says to me "learn the game mechnics more then your know why", then yup sorry that is like someone calling me a noob hence yup flaming
Not really, he was encouraging you to learn more about how the game works. A teacher doesn't flame you at school, he/she encourages you to learn.
buy and die
Hey Anarion. Can i touch you? RAWR!
Anyway i wish teachers would be encouraging me or anyone else but its usually them that need some encouragement to properly continue teaching in the broken public school system. Besides that i would have understood that as a flame as well.
Anyway i wish teachers would be encouraging me or anyone else but its usually them that need some encouragement to properly continue teaching in the broken public school system. Besides that i would have understood that as a flame as well.
Sertu
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrengordon
...I have been playing with making my ranger imortal and finally got a substainable build and yup i cant do any good group damage. So i gave him an axe with cyclone chop and poison (axe at 12) and still he cant do as much damage as SOJ at around 45 per hit to the whole group.
Is it just me or is this somehow wrong? So u are trying to make a ranger with great defence and give him cyclone axe + apply poison and expect to do a lot of dmg.
Its definitly u
First of all: rangers + axes = a DONT! let the warriors wield the axes. If u want a melee ranger go for a bunny thumper.
Second: rangers are versatile. They can be if u want dmg dealers but then can do so much more. Thats wat makes them great. They have great spiking potential, they make the best interupters, the have spirits, BM = overpowered its just 2 bad that petcontrol sucks, they can be trappers, they can do massive dmg 2 groups of people eg. Conjure flame + Barrage + FW + Winow + Fiery Bowstring... and last: expertise is the best attribute in GW
Is it just me or is this somehow wrong? So u are trying to make a ranger with great defence and give him cyclone axe + apply poison and expect to do a lot of dmg.
Its definitly u
First of all: rangers + axes = a DONT! let the warriors wield the axes. If u want a melee ranger go for a bunny thumper.
Second: rangers are versatile. They can be if u want dmg dealers but then can do so much more. Thats wat makes them great. They have great spiking potential, they make the best interupters, the have spirits, BM = overpowered its just 2 bad that petcontrol sucks, they can be trappers, they can do massive dmg 2 groups of people eg. Conjure flame + Barrage + FW + Winow + Fiery Bowstring... and last: expertise is the best attribute in GW
sage tank
If you are play axe fighter try rely more on adreline skills, there is not many good axe skills that uses energy. Beside with the cheap cost of dismember that is an easy 120+ armor ignoring damage if you can inflict deep wound on many enemies.
In my opinion
Sword specialize in higher armour ignoring damaging attack from attack skill and stable DPS
Axe is for inflicting Deep Wound and high DPS with critical hits
Hammer is just for KD with high damage per hit (You can easily hit a 90+ on squishy with no attack skill with 16 hammer mastery and sundering)
In my opinion
Sword specialize in higher armour ignoring damaging attack from attack skill and stable DPS
Axe is for inflicting Deep Wound and high DPS with critical hits
Hammer is just for KD with high damage per hit (You can easily hit a 90+ on squishy with no attack skill with 16 hammer mastery and sundering)