Nightfall and the future of Guild Wars - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Hephaestus Ram

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

None

W/E

17 Nov 2006 at 05:08 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

Okay, I have been mulling over this for the past few days, but now I have made up my mind and I would like to see what others think.

I believe Nightfall is too hard for the average player. I am aware of the thread titled "Nightfall too hard" but this is not about Rihlon Refuge and what not.

I have finished the game twice already, and am convinced that the Realm of Torment (and parts of Desolation) are simply too hard to be enjoyable for average players. I do not understand this design by ANet and I feel personally that despite being a wonderful game, Nightfall will spell the end of the Guild Wars franchise in terms of popularity.

Just so that we are clear, I finished the game in 2.5 days. My elementalist has 18 Million XP over 2,500 hours. She has 6 titles maxed including Elonian Grandmaster Cartographer and Protector as well as the Skill Hunter titlethat cannot be maxed. So, I don't want any posts from any self-proclaimed experts about how I just need a little a little more experience with the game. I also would appreicate if those who have not finished the game hold their thoughts till they actually finish it.

The problem as I see it is that the Torment hordes are just too powerful when one considers the AI enhancements. This problem starts as early as fighting Hekets Kourna. If you're a caster and you play the high level areas of Elona, then you 've probably encoutnered the following situation with Henchmen/Heroes:

You attack a mob, their Warriors/Dervishes rush your casters and they kite like real pros. In a few seconds, the "smart" melee enemies turn their focus to... YOU. You're the only noob not kiting. So, they start hacking at you laying Deep Wound on you and Distracting Blow and you can hardly get anything off. So, you decide to kite.. However, as soon as you start moving, your henchies stop attacking and set out to follow you.

The solution in most cases is to "anchor" them using the hero/henchie markers. However, if you're constantly being chased (It's the worst when you are a monk), you have major problems calling and directing their attacks while you're running about.

This solution beings to fail in the Desolation and most certainly in the Realm of Torment. If you're not on top of it making calls, your henchies will not finish them off quickly enough and due to "Call to the torment" you'll end up with more bad guys than you started with. If you're a new player coming to GW from other games... You'll be like, what the heck is going on here?!

To summarize this case study, I feel the monster AI is ahead of the hencmen AI, and it shows very clearly in the Realm of Torment. It really takes the wind out of your excitement about the Hero system when you get to the realm of Torment and find yourself getting "pwned" left and right. Mostly due to elements not directly related to your skill with the game. For example, take the Domain of Secrets with it's delightful +40% energy cost. No way, should you run into a group of torment Demons with 3 Rain of Terror demons along with an Arm of Insanity who has Quickeing Zephyr. The math just does not add up. The henchie/hero healers WILL dump ALL their energy in the first 5 seconds of the encounter and your party will wipe soon after.

The way I see it. This kind of imbalance will cause much frustration. Soon the player community will split into the haves and have nots. Those who put up with/overcome this kind of frustration (5%) and those who do not (95%). On day 4 of the game coming out, there were already people in Torment towns offering runs to the different outposts because they knew traveling the realm was very difficult. This will not just be limited to running, soon acquiring items/skins from the realm will be the domain of those few who can put up with its challenges.

This is nothing like Prophecies or Factions. In Factions, large groups of Shiro'ken were a handful, but they were not in an entire realm. In fact, the only time you "had" to go through them, Kuunavang offered you uber skills. In Prophecies, the Ring of Fire is Pre-Searing compared to the Realm of Torment.

In closing, I feel the end game in Nightfall is too hard for average players, and I think it will turn people off from the game once they discover that it's the area with the most lucrative drops and that they cannot go very far there on their own.

I don't know whether I agree or not yet. I've been involved in a few
threads in "the other" elite forum where people are asking for
Prophacies and Factions to be nerfed because they're too hard.

While arguing with them, all I can think in the back of my mind is
"wait 'til the get to Nightfall, where almost everything is lvl 28. and
come in groups of 10". I've gotten to the point where I can do almost
all of the missions in the other two chapters with the henches, I
thought I was getting pretty good, but even with the heroes, I'm
struggling to survive in Nightfall.

I'll have to wait until I've finished it a few times before I can say for
sure, but I'm tentatively going to agree that it's too hard for people
that don't have more than a few hours a day to play.

Feurin Longcastle

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 05:44 - 42

I recall a year ago I had immense trouble getting past THK, but now that I reflect on it I think it mostly had to do with poor equipment and skill choice. I haven't really found any area of GW too challenging since. (The 2nd last mission of Nightfall was difficult until I realized that going for the Masters made it infinitely easier)

I'm guessing that the people that don't have many skills unlocked on their accounts for their heroes, and don't have optimal equipment will perceive most of the Realm of Torment the way I saw THK a year ago.

Having said that, I hope nothing changes. I felt great when I finally overcame THK. If I breezed through Prophecies I would have felt a little cheated, I think.

realoddsman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

17 Nov 2006 at 05:45 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

I played Prophecies on release

I saw *many* people complaining (ingame) about
- Crossing the Dune (used to be only 1 monk henchie)
- Dune missions
- Fighting the Mirror
- THK
- the final missions of Ember camp

the game is almost 2 years old and many people are experienced GW players

- Crossing the Dune (used to be only 1 monk henchie)
then came the prot henchie, so nerfed.
-- Dune missionsplayer
prot henchie + gradual influx of all 20's with actual max armor (many people didnt bother gettin their max until that snow town. w.e it was called)

- Fighting the Mirror
nerfed at one point since monks couldnt kill their mirror.

- THK
nerfed once infusals were across the entire armor. Many nubs only infused 1 piece. Still a bitch though with retards and afk's though.

- the final missions of Ember camp
Nerfed once infusals were across the entire armor. Again, the nubs with 1/5 or 3/5 infused.

Quintal

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 06:04 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Ultimately, GW stands behind player skill design. Players that have skill will breeze through content. Nightfall is demanding. The only question here would be, whether players stick around for long enough to learn. Is GW really meant to be played from Prophecies onward, or are these chapters really playable as standalone?

I can't answer that, and veteran players can't either. But I do remember the times, when I considered Frost Gate an incredibly hard mission. and I feared going in there, let alone do the bonus.

So perhaps, NF is the same. I lived and learned, probably others will too.

I think you hit it spot on there.

Prophecies was a gradual build up and introduced harder and more complex chalenges at a good pace. Factions and Nightfall both toss you into the heat of complex battles with very little build up.

Now, this is great for someone who's played through prophecies and has some playtime under their belt, but for a new player starting in NF, they just don't get a chance to develop the required skills.

I've played since release, I have a friend who started with nightfall. Watching the two of us play, I was suprised at how I found my self just glancing at a mob and knowing what all of it's skills did and how to counter it, while my friend was just trying to beat it to death. Nightfall never teaches such things to a new player, I think this relates to the way you got skills in prophecies.. When you only get 2-3 new skills per mission you really have to think "Now what can this skill do for me?" Where as the Factions/Nightfall approach gives you a large list and you just pick things that sound cool.

So, as to the topic, I don't feel torment it self is too hard, but I do feel that Nightfall doesn't teach new players well enough to be able to handle it.

Karlos

Master of Mallyx

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Kaizen Order [Kaiz]

E/Me

17 Nov 2006 at 06:49 - 45

This is a side issue, but I agree with Quintal. I thought the "Dojo" in Shing Jea was a very nice idea to at least teach the players the basics of "interruption", "hex removal" and so forth. I don't understand why Nightfall has no tutorial beyond "Go talk to Dervish Expert, get two free skills, good luck!"

4thVariety

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

European Union

ADL

E/

17 Nov 2006 at 06:51 - 46

It’s the eternal problem of new content. Should it be an expansion which requires you to master the content that has come before? Then Nightfall can’t be hard enough. Hell, then it was made to expand the top level content and the torment is still too easy. Kourna then should have Lvl28 Mobs.

Or was it made to be more of a sequel? Something you just pick up and play like any other sequel. (Madden 2010, Medal of Honor pt.815) In that case the difficulty is directed at “newbies” and casual gamers. The expansion for the existing players is in size only, not in quality.

Nightfall tries to be both and falls flat on its face. The pros cry out that it is not hard enough. The casual games cry out it is too hard; and for good reason as the OP pointed out. In the end it neither truly satisfies either crowd. Both game modes “Ultra-Easy” and “Fairly-Tough” are blended together. True, most of the problems derive from people playing with Hero/Hench, just as the OP did, but “hey, that’s the new superfeature right?” A solid human team will hardly run into trouble. No matter how crazy the AI gets.

Rakeris

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Illinois

Feners Reve

17 Nov 2006 at 06:59 - 47

Good post Bobbbo Ob.

Even though I beat it all without to much of a problem on my dervish, I really dread it with my monk, I may just never do the finale missions/zones with my monk. As some of the zones where not so hard, as just stupid imo. There is a difference between hard, and giving the NPCs stupid advantages. I like difficulty, but how fun is it, when there are 3x as many of them, they are 8 levels higher and and hero/henchie AI sucks. With even half competent players I would wager it wouldn't be a problem. But there are so many problems with the hero/henchie AI that imo is what makes it hard.

Granted not all of the areas of course, some are fairly easy, others not so much. I hero/henchied every mission in NF except the last one. And needless to say, I didn't feel any sort of accomplishment after beating the boss....as he did nothing, and was easy to beat, we got a ragtag pug with only ONE monk. And we beat it in a tad over 15:00. Even though shiro could be killed in like 30 seconds...there was some feeling of accomplishment, instead of just FINALLY!!

But over all NF was a great game, and still is, I plan to do every quest I can find. But as I said, I always disliked games that instead of giving you a decent fight, they have to give the NPCs a stupid advantage, which imo, takes a lot of the fun out of it. Like instead of fighting though the realm of torment zones, I just ran though them. As fighting not only took 100x longer. A single boss could wipe your whole party...nothing like being hit for over 400 damage each attack. But even then, I wouldn't mind, it's the hero/henchie AI that annoys me the most, as if you do anything but stand there and fight, they start running around, which means they are doing nothing else...and a lot of the time they won't even use skills right, like you always have to tell them to use heal party...

Anyway, that is my 2 cents. =\

=HT=Ingram

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2005

Anchorage Alaska

Haz Team [HT]

R/W

17 Nov 2006 at 07:01 - 48

the simple fact you have already finished it twice, probably 3 or 4 times by now just proves to me that you really are not thinking when you say its too hard...

I actually enjoy a game that is not possible to finish in a weekend. but that is really REALLY rare. Nightfall is basically an Easy button for all previous chapters, and not too hard in and of itself. IDK why people think its so hard, other then they just don't like the game and want to complain on something, instead of playing it and figuring it out.

I'm sorry your having so much trouble. But it really is not very hard to either get a PUG to help you or use Heroes and henchies through the entire game. It really IS possible to do this if you so choose. But its no where near as fun as playing with real players who often make things more interesting just because they do things unpredictable.

Mr Jazzy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Cali

Mending For The [win]

W/A

17 Nov 2006 at 07:23 - 49

The difficulty is not a matter of required skill, or techniques of the enemy monsters, but rather the contrast of the Torment mobs to past enemies.

Monsters in the past did not kite so well, deal so much damage, or have such high levels or armors.

If strong monsters like these were spanned across all expansions, then the standard of skill and playing would have been raised to the sky. However, Anet screwed alot of us over by changing the standard from mind-numbingly easy to actually challenging, requiring many facets of skill, micro, and focus.

I used to be able to PvE with my eyes closed, using only one hand to control my character and chat all at the same time. Now, PvE is intense. It's very serious trying to play in the Realm of Torment, and for me, playing serious in a not-so-serious game with shiny swords and make-believe monsters is not fun at all.

Just trying to classify this difficulty, and yeah it'll come off as whining, but i just providing the psychological standpoint. It's really not that hard, but when you compare it to the past, the Realm of Torment is a giant leap.

jackie

/retired

Join Date: Dec 2005

On the Beach

17 Nov 2006 at 07:24 - 50

All I can see here is players saying that they themselves don't have problems completing the game, but a casual gamer would propably have.

I spent couple hours tonight speaking with players in some 'bottleneck' places of NF about difficulty aspect of this game and instead of ranting about how hard it's to beat the 'identical twins', almost all players took it as a challenge and gave tips to each other etc. Spoil Victory ftw and what not.

This very same difficulty/annoyed by rant was introduced when people got stuck to THK,Pve-ToPK and other more not-so-easy-places.

History repeats itself - unfortunately in some cases.

Karlos

Master of Mallyx

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Kaizen Order [Kaiz]

E/Me

17 Nov 2006 at 09:18 - 51

Actually, it is because I have been observing other players (namely my guild) that I am this concerned. Everyone in my guild was ecstatic, Elona rocks. It's pretty, it's varried and it's creative. Vabbi is the uber cool. Desolation and the Wurms are a novel concept. The return of the Undead and super-smiting is always welcome.

However, ALL my guildies, the most skilled and the most noobish, ground to a halt in Torment. All of them wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. I am a PvE junkie, so I got my ele to do every possible quest there (except Hunting Abaddon cause Zhetuka is AFK). However, I have not had to help so many ACCOMPLISHED players through the game as I have in Nightfall. These are guys who, in Factions, brought ALL their chars through the game without needing any help.

I am also noting their general psyche, and they all pretty much seem frustrated with the Realm of Torment and want to have nothing to do with it once they get their end-game green. Even the possibility of getting an Elemental Sword/Nightmare weapon does not seem to justify going through that punishing experience. I can hardly blame them.

I think the concern is valid, especially with the reward being so pathetic. Now, if those demons dropped Diamonds, or Ectos.. Then that would be a whole different story. Then there would be a meaning to the difficulty. But to agonize through 5-10-15 demons just to get 2,500 XP from the Wandering Soul in the Domain of Pain is, well, lame.

Silentt

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 09:30 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamprob

For you, perhaps. To me, these games are just that. They come and go. I want to see the story, the graphics, the powers/spells/abilities and then move on. This is my 6th MMO, and I'm sure they'll be more. I have NO desire to go back and rethink a strategy to try to get thru a difficult mission or quest. I want to be successful on my first try, always.
Dying in a game, to me, always ruins the immersion for me. In most books, the hero does not die, ever. He makes it through the obstacles to the end, defeats the bad guy, saves the day without ever dying once. That is the game I want to play. That is what gives me gaming euphoria. I utterly can't stand redoing a mission or quest for the 3rd or 4th or whatever time. I have played some FPS games almost entirely on god mode just so that the storyline unfolding isn't ruined, isn't interrupted, by my character dying.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying a game the way you do, but your words don't speak for all of us.

This thread, and one other, have given me serious reservations on buying Nightfall.

Sorry , but if u do not have the necessary skill the play a game , just dont , dont ask for it to be made easier , ive henched all of guildwars and Nf wasnt any different , its pretty easy if done correctly.

Ps: if u want to improve ur gaming skill try playing pvp.

sabretalon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

Saints Or Sinners [SOS]

N/W

17 Nov 2006 at 11:22 - 53

It's all a matter of adapting to the situation. One of the basic skills most new players take long to learn is, know your enemy! Once you know what you are dealing with, you then build a strategy to deal with it!

I like the challange, I did when I got Prophecies as my personal challenge was to get all the way through without relying on others. In factions I challanged myself by getting through the game with an assassin! Then in NF I run with a Dervish, my core characters come over for a tour of duty but other than that not much else.

If the game was not a challenge then I would be bored with it! The only gripe I have is, on one hand ANET say they are against farming but on the other, they encourage it with the sunspear and lightbringer titles and the weekly events!

Ninna

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

Northeast USA

Guilded Rose

Me/

17 Nov 2006 at 12:19 - 54

I agree Torment isnt fun
- but I didnt think ROF was fun either

did the ROF missions for my characters -- and got the hell out of there, never to return (unless I wanted a skillcap or help friends)

for me, ROF island is the *least fun* in Prophecies

as far as the resolution to Torment,
yes its standalone game but its also the final chapter to the trilogy

if nothing else, people will group more for Torment and not use heroes as much

even tho Torment isnt fun -- I dont want it nerfed

Jecht Scye

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Lucky Crickets[Luck]

N/Me

17 Nov 2006 at 12:24 - 55

This game is just fine. Seriously, people complain when it's too easy, and they complain when it's just a little rough at times. If your team has the combined IQ better than that of a rabble of untrained chimpanzees then it's easily beatable. End of Story.

justadude

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

R/Mo

17 Nov 2006 at 12:39 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

This IS about: Do you feel the end game difficulty would make Nightfall unenjoyable for average players.

I do not enjoy Guild Wars anymore due to the Gate of Madness mission.

I would also like to clarify that it is ONLY Shiro that has brought this about. The Lich is managable and the rest of the mission is good. However, I find myself not wanting to go through the mission only to lose to Shiro. In the end I find myself despondent and feel my drive to play slipping away as the frustration of reaching Shiro 10+ times with Hero / Hench and some verygood human groups only to lose, sometimes with Shiro two hits from dying.

I have had two of those close losses and the last one made me realize that no matter what, I will feel no accomplishment after beating this mission anymore. I, as stupid as it may sound, feel harassed by Anet and the design of this mission. The thought of going through it again with other characters really turns me off. The mission has become more trouble than it is worth.

Shiro and the Lich shouldn't even be in the storyline. They should be loses ends you need to tie up after beating the game.

I do not know what I will do. I guess I will wait a bit and see if I can motivate myself at a later date, but the fact that I sense no joy at the end of this is really making it seem bleak. I am close to quitting Guild Wars. It was not like this in the Ring of Fire or THK. I enjoy the Warren and the deep for the challenges they offer, but when I want that type of challenge I go there. Also the fundamental difference at Gate of Madness is it is only Shiro at the very end. It takes 20 - 30 minutes of coordinated fighting to get there and then you like a chicken in a den of wolves. It is a poorly designed mission in my opinion. The difficulty spike at the end is just to high.

Domino

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Houston

A/Rt

17 Nov 2006 at 12:40 - 57

I enjoy the challenge

justadude

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

R/Mo

17 Nov 2006 at 13:04 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

I enjoy the challenge

You see, I don't find it challenging anymore. I find it frustrating.

Not killing Shiro, or the mission, but both combined. Running over a bridge to kill Shiro and dying often was fine by me, but fighting 20 minutes to get there and then entering the volatile fight with Shiro is poor design to me.

Pandora's box

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Netherlands

Mo/W

17 Nov 2006 at 13:14 - 59

I have nothing against challenges. Hard levels? ok. What I do object is the waste of time before the real work starts. Playing for an hour on 'easy mode' to find out everything happens in the last 10 minutes. And most probably the first attempts to beat the last part will fail. So you have to go through the whole story again. Thats pointless.

Alternatively I'd say make it so players only have to do the final test. When only the last 10 minutes of a level are a challenge, than the test should only be those 10 minutes. Skip the rest. Teleport the party to the spot, and let the fight beging. Fail? No problem! Players will be eager to restart since it only takes a short time to get to the same situation.

justadude

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

R/Mo

17 Nov 2006 at 13:22 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobbbo Ob

...

fifty monsters that are twice as powerful as you characters are isn't a challenge. Its an atrocity commited on Video games! Most people are murmering "FINALLY!!!!!" after they get thorugh it. thats no sense of accomplishment.

-Guildwars, which takes pride in comparing itself to more action oriented games than MMO's, is not challenging, It is just annoying. Going through the same mob fifty times and dying fifty times is not challeging, because you still have to go through the other fifty mobs, fifty more times! And while Guildwars is not supposed to be grinding like WoW, having to go through the same repetitive mobs so you can kill it just to continue, is by all means, considered a Grind.

I agree. Should I get through Gate of Madness, I probably will just log out for a while without making a sound. It is just plain annoying getting to, then closing the 5 gates only to have a 'Wow, look at how hard this gets with Shiro!' slapped in your face.

African War Lord

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 14:56 - 61

I'll have to agree R.O.T is not fun.. that's what games are meant to be. I mean if you want a challenge, go find a job that you love in real life that's a challenge. I just got to the first mission in this land of hell and I had to run past a bunch of crap because it was just too much for my brain to handle. ANNOYING fights with your hero's not attacking what you call and being retarded at times.

I took uncharted.. quest and I was fighting this mob that swarms you at the beginning thinking this is way too hard but I kept switching builds and I beat the first mob only for a second even larger mob to appear. I finally managed after more tweaking to beat the two mobs dying several times, and a freakin 3rd mob comes. That's when I realized I didn't even have to fight this shit and my quest was just to run past them to the other side of the map lol.. what a waste of time. But yea if the rest of the game is anything like those swarming mobs, I'll be happy to get through it once and never do it again. sound like a good game to you?

Karlos

Master of Mallyx

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Kaizen Order [Kaiz]

E/Me

17 Nov 2006 at 15:06 - 62

A side note, those mobs are a result of a master difficulty quest you picked up in the Gates of torment. If ou abandon the quest temporarily, you'll be just fine. All you'll find out there are those 3 moving bricks.

My friends and I actually beat them the second time around, and were wondering what kind of crazy place is this when we saw the line "Quest Updated: Breaking the Broken" and then checked the log to find it was a difficulty master quest.

African War Lord

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 15:09 - 63

I knew I shouldn't have accepted that quest lol

Tagon

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2006

C O T P

R/Mo

17 Nov 2006 at 19:54 - 64

ROT was the best part of the game. I henchied the whole game on A paragon an Ele a Mesmer a Necro and I am getting close with Warrior. With the excpetions of the last two missions I prefer the heros to a pug. The only reason I like the pugs on the last two missions is it makes it that much easier if you don't have any leroys. Frankly I found the game way to easy. ROT gave me challage. And even then I think it is easier then THK. But then again that was a long time ago. And here is the kicker I did not die once in ROT with the exception of my memser and that was cause I made a major mistake.

When I saw the area effects placed am me I cursed then I laugh and adjusted. I had to think fast I had to well...play. But I also like to think of myself as a experanced player although I am a casual player. So maybe you wont take my word for it. My ex wife never really played until NF (her account has factions) and she is having no issue going through ROT with out any frustration. NF is not to hard it is differant and you will have to adjust your play style and you may have to try a time or two , but the game is not hard.

Riesz

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 20:23 - 65

I have to agree with your statement that the endgame area is simply too hard for casual players. GW is marketed to casual players with its lack of grind, easy leveling and easy acquisation of good equipment.

Casual players don't put in 20 hours of GW a week, and a friend of mine who played casually took about 3 months to finish Prophecies. Point is, playing sporatically typically means the player doesn't retain much skill (which is the case of most bad PuGs) since they don't have the time to 'practice' their builds. Lack of skill is passable in most of NF, but definetly not Realm of Torment. RoT's typical mob groups are something I'd expect in a god realm like FoW, which I wouldn't say is designed for the casual player, but more hardcores with time to burn after finishing the main story. Problem is, RoT can't be avoided to finish the story... and I could understand casual players simply giving up at that point.

I'd also consider myself an experienced and skilled player but had trouble in some areas of RoT, specifically the same problems OP experienced. I played a caster as well, and henchies would break aggro if I ran around to kite. Problem with the flags is Devona would run back to the casters on the flag instead of attacking my target... sigh. I also have to sympathize that it can be difficult to manage henchies' position, call targets, possibly babysit heroes' skillbars and cast my own. I also noticed henchies won't focus on a single target if I haven't issued a target call, but that's a separate problem.

Anyhow, I dunno the solution that would make everyone happy. Maybe a difficulty slider similar to NWN in the game options? Mobs would be easier and some skills (like Call to the Torment) would be disabled at max easy setting, but also drop less gold.

justadude

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

R/Mo

17 Nov 2006 at 22:41 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riesz

...

RoT's typical mob groups are something I'd expect in a god realm like FoW, which I wouldn't say is designed for the casual player, but more hardcores with time to burn after finishing the main story. Problem is, RoT can't be avoided to finish the story... and I could understand casual players simply giving up at that point.

...

Anyhow, I dunno the solution that would make everyone happy. Maybe a difficulty slider similar to NWN in the game options? Mobs would be easier and some skills (like Call to the Torment) would be disabled at max easy setting, but also drop less gold.

I think the solution would be to leave Gate of Madness type missions out of the main storyline. Have difficult quests and elite missions that could be done at leisure. So everyone would have something.

Beat_Go_Stick

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

17 Nov 2006 at 23:32 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by realoddsman

- Fighting the Mirror
nerfed at one point since monks couldnt kill their mirror.

- THK
nerfed once infusals were across the entire armor. Many nubs only infused 1 piece. Still a bitch though with retards and afk's though.

- the final missions of Ember camp
Nerfed once infusals were across the entire armor. Again, the nubs with 1/5 or 3/5 infused.

1. I made it to the mirror with my Mo/R on the first weekend of release and it was beatable with one skill, Healing Breeze. I have no idea what you mean by that one but the Mirror-rorriM hero was never nerfed, was it?

2. Setting infusals to stretch over the whole body was not a nerf, it was a fix. I never partied with anyone who thought that infusing one piece of armor was all they needed, especially not when the run was full of people telling others that they had to do it 5 times (hence the run).

Regardless, I haven't played through NF yet (but I did go buy it

) but I would say any petition to make something easier is a bad way to go about it. Petition to make Henchie AI better, petition to have a small tutorial so people know when they have that Masters Quest, petition for anything aside from dumbing the game down.

Many of us have asked over and over and over again for a 'toughening' of the game, be it an area of rough monsters, an area that requires intense concentration, or an area that requires increased teamwork to the point where we actually need to try in order to get through it.

Sounds to me like they finally granted our requests. I note that I'll have to actually go through it before I make a real judgement but, being a casual gamer now-a-days (girlfriends > video games) who has not played for months and mostly forgets how to play this game beyond Prophecies builds and a fading after-image of tactics, I imagine that I would be an ok test subject for this.

Heh, unfortunately it may take me a while to get there as I bought the game a couple weeks ago and am only level 3 now. I would hope that the challenge will still be there when I arrive though

Carth`

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

24 Nov 2006 at 15:16 - 68

I have got to the area you are talking about (yeah took me a while) and now that I'm there I agree. It is ridiculous.

Now, with a real team, it isn't bad at all. Because everybody can concentrate on their own job. I can play the monk, keep people alive, and rely on everyone else to kill stuff.

But with henchmen it's a different story. They STOP attacking when the mobs use Call to the Torment. You have to be wanding and constantly calling targets, or you will simply end up with loads of duplicate enemies.

Now add in the fact that everything attacks me, and I have 2 options. Stand there and take it or kite. If I kite, no matter how small my movement, all the henchmen follow. The warriors break aggro, the monks stop healing, they all run around. It's ridiculous. One slight movement from me means they all move with me.

Standing still isn't an option because everything attacks me and I die, and without my guidance the AI is useless. Once when we were in trouble I set a flag for everyone to run to. Unfortunately I died, but the other 7 heroes/henchmen survived. A paragon monster followed (forgot the name). I thought the 7 heroes/henchmen should be able to handle 1 paragon by themselves, so I let them kill it. They got it to about 25% health left, it used Call to the Torment, and they all stopped attacking it! I watched as they turned that 1 enemy into 7, before finally dying.

I don't find this a fun challenge, I find it frustrating. I have only just got to this area, so it's possible my mind will change later on...

I like a tough game, but this is tough for the wrong reasons - in an AI vs AI situation the monsters win because they are level 28, there are twice as many of them, and the allied AI has detrimental area effects on it, and makes kiting impossible for humans.

It is great fun with real players though.

If only I could find some.

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

24 Nov 2006 at 18:32 - 69

I sort of skimmed the thread but from what I get, the issue is difficulty of the Realm of Torment being too hard for casual players. That said, I think the issue you are talking about is how to bridge that gap between people who have played a lot on a regular basis (aka people like those in forums who congratulate themselves on beating all the missions the first day) and those who do not (playing once or twice a week, for example).

To deal with the situation is to test it out. What is the problem when you go into the Realm of Torment? Not that it is too hard for the casual player, but the AI of henches and heros still is not on par with the AI of the mobs. The reason for this is the mobs only have to be "good" on that specific area. They do not have to be adaptive to the surroundings. An example of this is when the AOE nerf allowed mobs to run from AOE while henches still sat in the AOEs getting smoked. I believe that is the *main* issue at hand here, not that the campaign is hard for the casual player.

This comes from someone who has beaten the campaign, and has henched nearly every quest (due to lack of PUGs). Yes, PUGs are actually better (gasp!) than henches most times, provided you get people who have a semi-decent grasp of the game (e.g. people who don't use newbie armor and 3 damage weapons on weapon dependent classes). Usually the farther you get into the game there has been more weeding out of "bad players".

In short: the problem is the quality of henches relative to quality of mobs.

Cjlr

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

SMS

E/Me

24 Nov 2006 at 22:49 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

Now add in the fact that everything attacks me, and I have 2 options. Stand there and take it or kite. If I kite, no matter how small my movement, all the henchmen follow. The warriors break aggro, the monks stop healing, they all run around. It's ridiculous. One slight movement from me means they all move with me.

If you flag the area where you're fighting, all your henchmen will keep doing what they're doing if you decide to kite.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

24 Nov 2006 at 23:16 - 71

Quote:

Orginally posted byKarlosThe solution in most cases is to "anchor" them using the hero/henchie markers. However, if you're constantly being chased (It's the worst when you are a monk), you have major problems calling and directing their attacks while you're running about.

When I did this mission with my Monk I made sure I was in a real ppl group as I won't use or limit heros there use.When it comes to GuildWars future only time can tell but think about replayablity in the game and what most of the players want.

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

25 Nov 2006 at 00:18 - 72

I understand the concerns, but I think that by the time the true casual players have gotten to these more advanced areas, those of us who have mastered them will have amassed and shared (via forums/wiki) enough of a body of knowledge that it will be doable. Those that are too lazy to look at this knowledge will fail. Not bacause it can't be done, but because they are too lazy. They may come back to it later after developing their heroes, improving their own equipment and/or playing skills. Nightfall clearly is asking for tactics from players, and I think this is great. You have to understand kiting, personal damage mitigation, snares, and building a skillbar otherwise it will be difficult in torment (or earlier for that matter). If however you do know how to do these things, its merely look before you leap challenging.
Hench ai on the other hand really really does need to be equal to monster ai...you are all correct on that.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

25 Nov 2006 at 04:41 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamprob

Dying in a game, to me, always ruins the immersion for me. In most books, the hero does not die, ever.

In most books heroes do not carry 15-22 swords against a 800 hp monster too. Nor do heroes wear "MAX AL" armor, they wear real armor they stole from the mobs. Nor do they only peak out at a puny level 20. Nor do they run towards a little rock ledge in a bid to gain higher ground, and zomg, a hero can't climb a tiny step to get onto the ledge?!

In Guild Wars you are not a hero, more like a wannabe hero trying to be a hero and saving the world. You are trying to be a hero. See the difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamprob

He makes it through the obstacles to the end, defeats the bad guy, saves the day without ever dying once. That is the game I want to play.

What if you happen to suck?

You still make it through without dying once? Swamprob, meet the bar. The bar has been set for the end game missions. You do not meet the standard to exceed the level. Sorry, your party has been defeated. Try again next time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamprob

That is what gives me gaming euphoria. I utterly can't stand redoing a mission or quest for the 3rd or 4th or whatever time. I have played some FPS games almost entirely on god mode just so that the storyline unfolding isn't ruined, isn't interrupted, by my character dying.

I can't even see how I can tell someone like you to "go play WoW".

What's next?

"Boey! I can't even win the $50,000 in the world wide tourney because I keep dying, and it spoils me immersion!"

My advice to you? Learn2Play.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

25 Nov 2006 at 04:45 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

those are units of the 3 chapters sold, not actual accounts. one account with prophesies, factions and nightfall has 3 "sales" counts in it. then of course there are those with multiple accounts.

but i digress.

i see guild wars as a niche game. designed by the devs as they want it to be and not as the market would like it to be. considering the enormous financial backing from ncsoft, they'll continue to do so.

Considering that NCsoft's most recent quarterlies are lower than last year, they were in the red for the past 2 quarters, and only just became profitable. And that their profits come largely from an ancient Lineage game and to a smaller extend Guild Wars, I'd say thank God for capitalism and market forces.

We will see how long Anet's devs refuse to yield. Just wait and see.

Hell Marauder

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

25 Nov 2006 at 06:15 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by African War Lord

I took uncharted.. quest and I was fighting this mob that swarms you at the beginning thinking this is way too hard but I kept switching builds and I beat the first mob only for a second even larger mob to appear. I finally managed after more tweaking to beat the two mobs dying several times, and a freakin 3rd mob comes. That's when I realized I didn't even have to fight this shit and my quest was just to run past them to the other side of the map lol.. what a waste of time. But yea if the rest of the game is anything like those swarming mobs, I'll be happy to get through it once and never do it again. sound like a good game to you?

Hmm....I believe you need to abandon that optional master-difficulty quest (the one that awards you with 100 lightbringer pts), before doing the uncharted territory which is primary. In fact, most tough mobs in R.O.T. can be bypassed if you watch your aggro circle carefully, and just avoid them and run toward your next destination. Only a few mobs in key positions need to be fought, and they're mostly monolithes and margonites. So choose your targets wisely.

TopGun

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

25 Nov 2006 at 06:27 - 76

Human Brain > Stupid Computer.

I took a computer programming class in High School... one thing my teacher drilled into us more than anything else:

Computers are stupid.
They're freaking fast--
but they're stupid.

All computers know is what you tell them, or tell them to tell themselves. They have no sense of strategy or tactics other than what was programmed into them. These particular computers you're playing with/against have been programmed well... but they're still stupid. Fast, accurate, masterful multitaskers and micromanagers, but ultimately... stupid.

dreamhunk

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

:P

E/Me

25 Nov 2006 at 15:59 - 77

You can blame pvpers for pushing harder content!

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

25 Nov 2006 at 16:06 - 78

I believe most decent PvE'ers were asking for more difficult content as well.

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

25 Nov 2006 at 16:06 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamhunk

You can blame pvpers for pushing harder content!

While we're playing the blame game, you could also blame PvE players for not knowing how to kite and general tactics, adaptation, using poor builds, etc etc.

dpcash

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

FoC

R/E

25 Nov 2006 at 18:38 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

I agree with you - doing the same quest (on diff chars) is same as farming

What about doing the same missions on different characters? lol