Story:
I was in Ruin of Morah and saw some guy selling 20/20 sundering and telling people how it's the best prefix for weapon. I start arguing how vampiric is better than sundering, then some other guy argue against me and say how sundering is better. His arguement is that sundering is good for spiking. I counter him by saying what's the use of spiking if the precise time sundering trigger cannot be controled?
What exactly is a spike? My definition is that multiple player use high damage attacks on the same target at the same time. But the other guy say it's any damage higher than normal. Just what is this normal?
To put it simple: What is a spike?
The GW definition of "spike"
lightblade
Mr_eX
You're right, and the guy selling the sundering mod doesn't know what he's talking about.
RobotNinja
Here is 'a' Spike...
Ohhhh... You meant a Guild Wars Spike... Yeah, dunno really. I always thought it was when you get nailed by heaps of Rangers at once... Isnt there a ranger skill called spike?
Bah, I don't know... I'm just bored
Ohhhh... You meant a Guild Wars Spike... Yeah, dunno really. I always thought it was when you get nailed by heaps of Rangers at once... Isnt there a ranger skill called spike?
Bah, I don't know... I'm just bored
Lets Get to Healing
I try to tell people this, There is NO best mod. It's all personal preference.
Put it this way:
I have a sundering you, you have vamp., my friend has Legnthens bleeding.
Another guy has Armor + Physical.
It's all based on what YOU want.
To answer your question. Alot of damage over a short period of time.
Put it this way:
I have a sundering you, you have vamp., my friend has Legnthens bleeding.
Another guy has Armor + Physical.
It's all based on what YOU want.
To answer your question. Alot of damage over a short period of time.
Helcaraxe
vamp is infinitely better for spiking.
A spike is any large number, usually reached by multiple activating the same action on a single target. (eg, spike healing would be several monks all using orison of healing at teh same time on a single target)
And yes you are correct, when going for a spike, in fact in any kind of PvP it is best to have something that you can control, a 20% is uncontrollable, however the +5 damage from vamp will ALWAYS happen.
A spike is any large number, usually reached by multiple activating the same action on a single target. (eg, spike healing would be several monks all using orison of healing at teh same time on a single target)
And yes you are correct, when going for a spike, in fact in any kind of PvP it is best to have something that you can control, a 20% is uncontrollable, however the +5 damage from vamp will ALWAYS happen.
Yanman.be
Vamp>sundering, no matter if you're spiking or not.
Haggard
Spike doesn't necessarily refer to the SAME action. It could be damage from multiple sources of multiple types, to eliminate type-specific counters. This is exhibited in rainbow spike.
Heinrich Deathlord
A spike to me is two different things:
team spike, I guess most of you know what I'm talking about
solo spike, only kinda valueable in lowlvl/random pvp, where the monks are bad or nonexistant. a warrior builds up adrenaline and goes evic+ex strike, or an ele hits orb, strike in rapid sucsession. Either way, the 20/20 is way too conditional for me, I go vamp or zealous if I'm doing a sin
team spike, I guess most of you know what I'm talking about
solo spike, only kinda valueable in lowlvl/random pvp, where the monks are bad or nonexistant. a warrior builds up adrenaline and goes evic+ex strike, or an ele hits orb, strike in rapid sucsession. Either way, the 20/20 is way too conditional for me, I go vamp or zealous if I'm doing a sin
Tarkin
With a vamp 3/1 mod at each 5 strikes you will get >ever< >if you strike< 15 more damage
With a sund 20/20 mod at each 5 strikes you will get 5 chances of a big strike, for a good player with good weapows this damage bonus will be larger than 15 damage... and you have the chance of more than a good strike in 5...
Vampiric is good for barrage rangers, for my ranger i still using a drago 20/20.
Spike usualy is for pvp, where hugh damage in small time is the best...
With a sund 20/20 mod at each 5 strikes you will get 5 chances of a big strike, for a good player with good weapows this damage bonus will be larger than 15 damage... and you have the chance of more than a good strike in 5...
Vampiric is good for barrage rangers, for my ranger i still using a drago 20/20.
Spike usualy is for pvp, where hugh damage in small time is the best...
Feurin Longcastle
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Vamp>sundering, no matter if you're spiking or not.
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Vamp is better for spiking. Not only is the damage controllable, the average damage done is higher as well. I could go into the entire damage calculation, but it's a little messy, so just take my word for it that on average it's higher.
However, Vamp results in a loss of life. Under ideal circumstances, i.e. an endless IAS and a fresh supply of targets that never requires you to move and you never miss, you do gain a small net amount of life. However, most of GW combat is less than ideal. In PvE you're constantly switching to new targets, IAS' are rarely maintainable indefinately, and you frequently miss your target as a result of enchantments, hexes, or blind. Taken together you lose a substantial amount of life over time, even if you swap weapons efficiently. (Which frankly, is rather tedious)
Sundering does away with all that. It works with no detriment to you, ever. It's always a net increase in damage, no matter how little. It's not conditional like needing to have skills that cause bleeding, or skills that somehow benefit from an elemental handle.
For some people, this is preferable. For me, the sundering mod allows me to hit 3-digit damage on non-attack skill critical hits to AL 60. It's a preference that I personally choose.
Pudin Tame
I would say a spike is a simultaneous attack from two or more players that deals more damage than can be healed through.
TheShadowedBlade
Vampiric and Sundering have very similar, if not the same damage output. I have tested them both, on multiple armor levels, and have found this to be true. Neither is better, they are just different.
Batou of Nine
Well, to the ORIGINAL post. The term "spike" in GW varies a bit.
PvP, it usually refers to a team coordinated attack on a single target using skills that deliver direct dmg (or direct healing).
PvE, it can refer to ANY high amount of direct dmg received or delivered in a short period of time.
To the Sundering vs Vamp argument. This ONLY concerns Weapon classes (Warriors, Rangers, Assasins, Dervishes, Paragons). To put it simply, it is a matter of ONE word only: Preference. Each has drawbacks and each can serve a function in terms of "spike" dmg. Vamp has life degeneration, and Sundering has a 1/5 chance to initiate...
Feurin Longcastle, put that point forth very well and speaks the truth. In fact, there is NO argument to what is best. It is according to the user and how they wish to deliver dmg and/or suffer the detriments of either one. This argument is about as useless as the Axe vs Sword debate: a waste of brainpower...
cheers!
PvP, it usually refers to a team coordinated attack on a single target using skills that deliver direct dmg (or direct healing).
PvE, it can refer to ANY high amount of direct dmg received or delivered in a short period of time.
To the Sundering vs Vamp argument. This ONLY concerns Weapon classes (Warriors, Rangers, Assasins, Dervishes, Paragons). To put it simply, it is a matter of ONE word only: Preference. Each has drawbacks and each can serve a function in terms of "spike" dmg. Vamp has life degeneration, and Sundering has a 1/5 chance to initiate...
Feurin Longcastle, put that point forth very well and speaks the truth. In fact, there is NO argument to what is best. It is according to the user and how they wish to deliver dmg and/or suffer the detriments of either one. This argument is about as useless as the Axe vs Sword debate: a waste of brainpower...
cheers!
Jetdoc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheShadowedBlade
Vampiric and Sundering have very similar, if not the same damage output. I have tested them both, on multiple armor levels, and have found this to be true. Neither is better, they are just different.
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lightblade
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheShadowedBlade
Vampiric and Sundering have very similar, if not the same damage output. I have tested them both, on multiple armor levels, and have found this to be true. Neither is better, they are just different.
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Further more, Sundering do armor penetration, while vampiric is completely armor ignoring. Which is better?
Sundering allows more damage that can be reduced by spells like Protective Spirit and Life Barrier, but Vampiric completely bypass that. Which is better?
Jetdoc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle
Vamp is better for spiking. Not only is the damage controllable, the average damage done is higher as well. I could go into the entire damage calculation, but it's a little messy, so just take my word for it that on average it's higher.
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Vampiric is better for pressure. It simply causes more damage over time than Sundering. So, on average, Vampiric will cause your weapon to be more effective than Sundering over time.
Spiking, however, is generally defined as the ability to cause high amounts of damage within a few seconds, to make the possibility/probability of that damage being healed remote.
Sundering, because of its 20% probability, is basically an "all or nothing" mod. As such, it actually works better in solo or 2-3 man spiking situations if you are of the mind set "if I don't kill him with the spike, I'm going to stop the attack."
Vampiric is more of a "guaranteed damage" modifier. In a spike, that extra +3 damage over around 3 or so hits isn't enough for a single attacker to take down a target. With a large number of people spiking - yes, it makes a difference.
So, as others have said, Vampiric is generally preferable to Sundering. However, in very limited circumstances, Sundering actually has some value in excess of Vampiric. Very few circumstances, mind you...
myword
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle
even if you swap weapons efficiently. (Which frankly, is rather tedious)
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Count to Potato
Spike is DPS (Damage Per Second) that is really high, in other words damage higher than normal at the same time being hhig damage attack from multiple players at the same time
Bread Fan
For r-spike I prefer vamp horned bow (dual shot FTW). Vamp is especially good when you have a stance which increases your attack speed. And yes a "spike" is when someone is designated a caller and does a countdown, each person deals damage to that target at the same time. For r spike and blood spike it is quite easy. A mixed spike takes a little more co ordination depending on the cast times etc...
Cracko
Not this again!
/sigh
I like Zealous.
/sigh
I like Zealous.
LifeInfusion
Vamp > Sundering because it doesn't matter whether you have 12 mastery or 16 mastery, you still do 3 extra damage consistently. 20% AP from Sundering scales with Weapon mastery and is conditional.
Rera
There's a thread on team-iq going over the math of why Vamp is always better than sundering, whether you're pressuring or spiking.
Div
vamp and zealous are the best for spiking, but who really cares/knows about spiking outside the context of pvp? which probably explains why those pve people are trying to sell the sundering and argue that it's better
Mercury Angel
The only benefit of Sundering, convenience of non-weapon swapping aside for laziness, is that its benefits stack with other base damage increasers. If you were, for example, running a Dervish with Vow of Strength, Judge's Insight, and a GFtE spammer, the damage increased would likely be fairly large.
In the vast majority of builds where spiking or pressure is desired, Vamp is the way to go. The degen is such a non-issue, worrying about it is completely ridiculous.
In the vast majority of builds where spiking or pressure is desired, Vamp is the way to go. The degen is such a non-issue, worrying about it is completely ridiculous.
Zui
http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=1319
(there's also a very long thread in Q&A at guru...)
(there's also a very long thread in Q&A at guru...)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galen
So you're saying that a higher standard deviation in damage is preferable, even if you have to settle for a lower mean damage.
This is certainly true to some extent: I'd rather have a Lightning Orb that misses 4/5 of the time and does 500 damage than the current Orb doing 140 every hit. However, for adrenal spikes, I don't think this matters. In any adrenal unload typically four blows connect (two hits from each of two warriors); this is enough hits to smooth out the higher standard deviation from using Sundering: Damage with Vamp vs. 60 AL target: +8.4% 100% of the time Damage with Sundering vs 60 AL target: +23.1% 20% of the time Percent extra nonskill damage added from Vamp over four attacks: +8.4% with a standard deviation of 0 Percent extra nonskill damage added from Sundering over four attacks: Sundering triggers: 1/625 four times, 16/625 three times, 96/625 twice, 256/625 one time, 256/625 zero times. Mean: Will trigger 500/625=.8 times over the four attacks, adding 4.6% to your base nonskill damage Standard deviation of number of triggers: 0.8 (from sqrt(mean of squares - square of mean)) Standard deviation of average added damage: 4.6% So, the added damage from Vampiric is 8.4% +/- 0, and the added damage from sundering is 4.6% +/- 4.6%. (Yes, SD = mean for this data set.) Point 1: The added expected deviation of 3.68% of base nonskill damage over four attacks is significantly less than the deviation that is already there from random weapon damage, so this added randomness will just be "noise lost in a larger amount of noise." Point 2: How many times does sundering have to proc, out of those four hits, to outperform vamp? What is the probability of this happening? If sundering triggers once, the base nonskill damage of those four hits is increased by 5.78%. If it triggers twice, the base nonskill damage is increased by 11.55%. If it triggers three times, it is increased by 17.33%. The odds of sundering triggering at least twice are 113/625 = 18.1%, and at least three times 17/625 = 2.7%. So: An adrenal spike using sundering (four hits) will have its base nonskill damage outperform that of vamp only 18% of the time, and outperform vamp significantly only 3% of the time. Is this introduction of randomness sufficient to make sundering worthwhile, even though its mean added damage is less than that of vamp? I don't think so. |
dr love
i still think furious ftw. then you can spike with all your adrenaline skills.
Paperfly
Vampiric is actually even better in high-end PvE areas than it is in PvP - the lifetheft isn't subject to damage reduction from high enemy levels and humanly-unattainable armour, which is the principal limiter on PvE damage [see: Elementalists, woes of].
Most importantly, a Vampiric mod usually costs 1/5 as much on the open market as the Sundering equivalent. The fact that it also deals more damage is just gravy (as you're not stuck with that horrible feeling that you ended up with second-best).
Most importantly, a Vampiric mod usually costs 1/5 as much on the open market as the Sundering equivalent. The fact that it also deals more damage is just gravy (as you're not stuck with that horrible feeling that you ended up with second-best).
Former Ruling
For the spike - "Spike" is where the team (or solo in low lvl arenas ) trys to do so much dmg in so little time that the monk cannot heal it fast enough to save the person.
As for Vamp vs Sundering...Vamp. But Zealous and Elemental mods are big ones too, depending on build, and situation.
) trys to do so much dmg in so little time that the monk cannot heal it fast enough to save the person. As for Vamp vs Sundering...Vamp. But Zealous and Elemental mods are big ones too, depending on build, and situation.
XvArchonvX
Wow, looks like the whole Vamp vs. Sundering debate is up and at it again, lol. Sundering is great...for putting on a backup weapon to show people when you're not attacking. When you start doing something, however, as stated by the many people here, vamp is better. Hands down.
As for the definition of spike, I have always interpereted as a direct action that causes an immediate increase or decrease in health on a single target. A couple examples are as follows:
Blood spike: uses skills like Vamp Gaze, Dark Pact, etc.
Ranger Spike: Dual Shot, Punishing Shot, etc.
Heal Spike: Heal Other, Infuse Health, etc.
Adrenal Spike: Eviscerate, Decapitate, etc.
When two teams fight, damage is also generally described as spike or pressure. Spike is when one team concentrates on a single target with skills that do their full damage as quickly as possible, whereas pressure is causing damage and/or degen to multiple targets in order to wear down the team all at once.
As for the definition of spike, I have always interpereted as a direct action that causes an immediate increase or decrease in health on a single target. A couple examples are as follows:
Blood spike: uses skills like Vamp Gaze, Dark Pact, etc.
Ranger Spike: Dual Shot, Punishing Shot, etc.
Heal Spike: Heal Other, Infuse Health, etc.
Adrenal Spike: Eviscerate, Decapitate, etc.
When two teams fight, damage is also generally described as spike or pressure. Spike is when one team concentrates on a single target with skills that do their full damage as quickly as possible, whereas pressure is causing damage and/or degen to multiple targets in order to wear down the team all at once.
Arcador
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rera
There's a thread on team-iq going over the math of why Vamp is always better than sundering, whether you're pressuring or spiking.
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Anyway Spiking exists since Ultima Online. There was called Nuking or Melting or whatever you wish but it had the same function - 2 or 3 players deliver high amount of combo dmg per sec on one of the other players so fast, that other mages manage not to heal the victim. So was the spike preventing - several casters in a group were devoted to heal only to place healing in the 0.5 sec interval and etc.
I believe the term "Spike" is from the HP chart. When several players deliver high ammout of damage to one player - the team HP makes a huge move down at almost straight line. After ressing that player he returns to full hp (with 15% pen of course) but the Chart now have a "spike" on it.
GWiki is at the same point - http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spike
Mr Jazzy
A spike is an unexpected or highly irregular boost in damage.
e.g., attacking for only 10 damage on a regular basis, but "spiking" 90 damage on an odd hit.
or...
to use blood spike as an example: the rapid output of damage in a small amount of time.
(everyone using 63 dmg gaze at once, dealing around 360 spike damage on one target)
e.g., attacking for only 10 damage on a regular basis, but "spiking" 90 damage on an odd hit.
or...
to use blood spike as an example: the rapid output of damage in a small amount of time.
(everyone using 63 dmg gaze at once, dealing around 360 spike damage on one target)
DvM
sundering good for spiking? since when did sundering trigger on already armor ignoring bonus damage form attack skills? O.o
Muse of Shadows
Many before me have stated what a spike is, so I will not discribe that.
For the Vampiric vs. Sundering though, vampiric is far superior. Why? On average, it has a significantly greater damage output against soft targets, and equal or slightly greater damage output against warriors and paragons. It is further controlable and predictable, where the sundering is random. The health degen is a minute point - 2 life per second, and assuming you attack at a regular speed continusly, you acualy net health, although at a level that isnt realy worth it (I forget the math exactly, but its something like +5 health over 15-20 seconds).
The one real advantage of sundering (other than avoiding the very minor annoyance of -1degen), also happens to be its greatest weakness - on average you will trigger once out of every 5 attacks, but it is quite possable for you to trigger for 5 attacks in a row (0.0032% chance aproxamate). Downside being it is more likely you will NOT trigger for a consecutive 20 attacks.
Put simply, as long as you can cope with the annoyance of the health degen, and any competent player should be able to, vampiric is FAR superior for damage output, with little or no negative side.
For the Vampiric vs. Sundering though, vampiric is far superior. Why? On average, it has a significantly greater damage output against soft targets, and equal or slightly greater damage output against warriors and paragons. It is further controlable and predictable, where the sundering is random. The health degen is a minute point - 2 life per second, and assuming you attack at a regular speed continusly, you acualy net health, although at a level that isnt realy worth it (I forget the math exactly, but its something like +5 health over 15-20 seconds).
The one real advantage of sundering (other than avoiding the very minor annoyance of -1degen), also happens to be its greatest weakness - on average you will trigger once out of every 5 attacks, but it is quite possable for you to trigger for 5 attacks in a row (0.0032% chance aproxamate). Downside being it is more likely you will NOT trigger for a consecutive 20 attacks.
Put simply, as long as you can cope with the annoyance of the health degen, and any competent player should be able to, vampiric is FAR superior for damage output, with little or no negative side.
Silontes
Vamp is a wammo's excuse to bring mending...
Jokes aside, vamp > sundering. End of discussion
Jokes aside, vamp > sundering. End of discussion
Orinn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muse of Shadows
The one real advantage of sundering (other than avoiding the very minor annoyance of -1degen), also happens to be its greatest weakness - on average you will trigger once out of every 5 attacks, but it is quite possable for you to trigger for 5 attacks in a row (0.0032% chance aproxamate). Downside being it is more likely you will NOT trigger for a consecutive 20 attacks.
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On reading it again, you were saying that the low chance of a very impressinve sundering chain doesn't make up for the high chance of getting a run of bad luck (20 attacks where it fails to proc once.)
Spirit Of Azrael
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DvM
sundering good for spiking? since when did sundering trigger on already armor ignoring bonus damage form attack skills? O.o
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Sunder Argument = PHAILS
zealous/furious FTW!
Gun Pierson
Spike for me means high damage output by rangers. There are a few ways yes, vampiric or sundering. In my case being a monk I prefer sundering and I tell you way.
A hornbow (ivory, shadow bow etc) has an inherent chance of 10% armor penetration. Add a 20/20 sundering mod and you get 30%. Add the smiting monk skill +20% armor penetration and you get 50% chance in total. This works for me when I take my two ranger heroes pumped up with some extra dmg ranger skills. Especially against casters or creeps that use the recall of torment thingy. They die in no time before they can copy themselves.
I also prefer this method on rangers as they don't need to run up close to the target and waste time like for example a warrior.
But take what you have the best results with.
A hornbow (ivory, shadow bow etc) has an inherent chance of 10% armor penetration. Add a 20/20 sundering mod and you get 30%. Add the smiting monk skill +20% armor penetration and you get 50% chance in total. This works for me when I take my two ranger heroes pumped up with some extra dmg ranger skills. Especially against casters or creeps that use the recall of torment thingy. They die in no time before they can copy themselves.
I also prefer this method on rangers as they don't need to run up close to the target and waste time like for example a warrior.
But take what you have the best results with.
pah01
What is actually needed is a forum about equipment here in Guru. Then we need to sticky in it a whole bunch of details about why vamp > sundering. Why weapon swaps are needed for various circumstances - like elemental for warriors, the health vs armour debate and so on.
Then idiots who want to try and tell me that things that are ESTABLISHED facts in GW are forced to read and give assent before they are allowed to post stupidity in the forum.
The same goes for PVP. Some guys wants to say "Yeah but I really like using vigorous spirit on my monk..." Guru says "Sorry but the stupidity meter will not allow you to post here, have a nice day"
Joe
Then idiots who want to try and tell me that things that are ESTABLISHED facts in GW are forced to read and give assent before they are allowed to post stupidity in the forum.
The same goes for PVP. Some guys wants to say "Yeah but I really like using vigorous spirit on my monk..." Guru says "Sorry but the stupidity meter will not allow you to post here, have a nice day"
Joe
Lord Sojar
Speaking of Spike. I got ranger spiked in halls eariler. It hurt. They were using this skill.
Forked Arrow:
Shoot two arrows simultaneously at target foe. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment or Hex, you shoot only one arrow.
Yeh, it hurt.. @_@
Forked Arrow:
Shoot two arrows simultaneously at target foe. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment or Hex, you shoot only one arrow.
Yeh, it hurt.. @_@
tomcruisejr
Shocking/Ebon is good though for spiking Warriors with Gladiator armor.