I still see every SS, both in game and on these forums, swear by Arcane Echo.
Please. Stop.
Arcane Echo, I admit, was useful back before Factions and Nightwall was implemented it in the game. I used it to great success in Sorrow's Furnace farming (ah, memories), since there was a lack of firepower during that type of farming.
Now, we have 2 more campaigns of skills, easy access to dual recharge mods, and new AI. Why do people still insist on Arcane Echo.
Factions and Nightfall brought many new skills, which far surpass the power of an Arcane Echo + SS:
Defile Enchantments (Fact)
Reckless Haste (Fact)
Signet of Lost Souls (NF)
Well of Darkness/Silence (NF)
If you have more than Prophecies, you can't really use the excuse that there aren't enough skills for SS without Arcane Echo...
The inherent flaw with the combo of Arcane Echo and Spiteful Spirit is that you only get 2 casts of the Echoed Spiteful Spirit. (3 if you are lucky with a recharge mod). Then, Arcane Echo recharges for 30 seconds. That makes it completely useless for the next mob you fight, with the rate that groups plow through PvE. Why bring a potentially useless skill?
The improvements to double recharge mods allow you to use SS rapidly without taking another skill slot. Just use a wand with HSR 20% and a focus with HSR 20%. (my preference is +5e^50%/HSR 20% and a HSR 20%/Curses +1 20%)
And with the new AI, enemies don't group up as easily, making an additional SS a little pointless. Try using SS in the Realm of Torment.
So, you see, quit relying on Arcane Echo. The game has changed...
Stop Using Arcane Echo!
Zinger314
Avarre
It was useful in Underworld farming, as it allowed a hex chain that quickly wiped a group, then the monk could take time to round up another full aggro.
Outside of that, it was outstripped by other skills. I agree with Zinger here, though I prefer a 5^50/20% wand and a +15/-1/20% focus (or +30hp), as soul reaping easily makes up for the -1 regen on energy by the time the battle is complete.
Outside of that, it was outstripped by other skills. I agree with Zinger here, though I prefer a 5^50/20% wand and a +15/-1/20% focus (or +30hp), as soul reaping easily makes up for the -1 regen on energy by the time the battle is complete.
Antheus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
The improvements to double recharge mods allow you to use SS rapidly without taking another skill slot. Just use a wand with HSR 20% and a focus with HSR 20%. (my preference is +5e^50%/HSR 20% and a HSR 20%/Curses +1 20%) With Arcane Echo you get twice as many chances, since you have two copies, allowing you to put SS on 3-5 mobs during first 10-12 seconds.
All the skills listed above are great. But since echo is a no attribute skill, it doesn't cost anything. Even more, depending on the situation, you can echo other skills.
Echo can of course get stripped, but so can any enchant. It obviously helps if SS necro isn't in the frontlines or agroing mobs. But echo should always be pre-cast, waiting until the group engages and then casting it is asking for it to be stripped.
Blackhawk
I agree with Zinger, theres more useful skills to put in a SS build rather than Arcane Echo.
Cam_Payton
The combo is still effective, and something I greatly prefer in a pve team over an mm.........
SparhawkJC
I'm a pretty big fan of A. Echo. With a 20/20 wand and focus set I can put SS on multiple targets faster than their hex strippers can take them off. If I run low on energy I can switch to a set of 15/-1 wand and focus sets that keep the double 20% HSR. By the time the battle's over I'll be completely recharged. Besides A.Echo and SS are just 2 skill spots you still have 6 other skill spots to tweak around with to take any other skills you want.
Icepic
I certainly can't argue against the OP, but like SparhawkJC I'm a fan of A. Echo. I used a curse/dom build through factions and really enjoyed it, but I did find I would A. Echo Backfire almost as often as SS, depending on the mobs.
the_jos
I'm still relatively early in NF (reached Moddok Crevice), so I can only tell my experiences so far.
I still use the AE/SS combo (don't have the 20% wand/offhand yet).
This combined with Reckless Haste and Price of Failure.
Energy has never been a real problem, since the mobs are still packed enough to kill themselves quickly.
I do have to admit that I used the combo mostly in missions where I had been before with other characters and I therefor knew the way mobs behave.
So no SS in Rilohn Refuge (ran E-denial / shivers build there), just not enough melee / bowman.
I think it al depends on the way you use the combo.
For me the 30 second recharge of AE is only a problem if I cast the spell at the wrong time (too early / too late).
Also, for me SS is not only a way to do mass damage.
Even if the enemies are spread, they are going to hurt themselves (AI still attacks /casts spells when hexed with SS, Empathy, Backfire).
So no SS on the ones that get beaten by our melee attackers, just on those casters / rangers behind them.
Perhaps not the massive damage that could be done, but it weakens them (I almost feel like a mesmer).
I still use the AE/SS combo (don't have the 20% wand/offhand yet).
This combined with Reckless Haste and Price of Failure.
Energy has never been a real problem, since the mobs are still packed enough to kill themselves quickly.
I do have to admit that I used the combo mostly in missions where I had been before with other characters and I therefor knew the way mobs behave.
So no SS in Rilohn Refuge (ran E-denial / shivers build there), just not enough melee / bowman.
I think it al depends on the way you use the combo.
For me the 30 second recharge of AE is only a problem if I cast the spell at the wrong time (too early / too late).
Also, for me SS is not only a way to do mass damage.
Even if the enemies are spread, they are going to hurt themselves (AI still attacks /casts spells when hexed with SS, Empathy, Backfire).
So no SS on the ones that get beaten by our melee attackers, just on those casters / rangers behind them.
Perhaps not the massive damage that could be done, but it weakens them (I almost feel like a mesmer).
Cathode_Reborn
Sorry but I completely disagree with this......I always thought this: Echo SS or don't use it at all. It's simply too weak on it's own. A mob would have to be very tightly packed in order for it to be effective on it's own. At that point, an echo'd SS would be devastating, and could easily out-damage a nuker. You also wont be fighting packed mobs all the time......there's the occasional times when enemy casters are spread out, and melee fighters are also spread out attacking random party members. The point of echo'ing it is to spam it as many times as possible. Battles can get pretty chaotic...after echo'ing SS and castin it on everyone you can, you'll be seeing 37's all over the place.
If you use SS on it's own, you'd have to wait 10 seconds just to cast it a 2nd time, and during battle that might feel like a long time especially when you need the damage right there at that moment. While waitin on it's recharge, you don't got much other skills to do damage with.
"The improvements to double recharge mods allow you to use SS rapidly without taking another skill slot"
There's another reason to echo it - Double recharge on the copied SS. If you don't echo it, relying on a 40% chance of that happening is risky when fighting tougher enemies.
"And with the new AI, enemies don't group up as easily"
I've seen enemies flee from AoE fire spells, I've seen enemy casters flee from warriors, but I don't think I've ever seen any ai react in a smart way when it comes to dealing with SS.
"Then, Arcane Echo recharges for 30 seconds. That makes it completely useless for the next mob you fight"
It's Pve. 30 secs isn't bad at all, especially since echo'ing it helps deals with mobs fast. Use Arcane like you'd use Meteor shower - just don't waste it on small mobs. Use it when fighting a huge group that could be a threat, then you'll be really glad you brought it.
"Factions and Nightfall brought many new skills, which far surpass the power of an Arcane Echo + SS"
You only listed a few skills, and they're all Nec. I still don't see why I should change my 2ndary to somethin else when I can use Arcane Echo's unlinked coolness
If you use SS on it's own, you'd have to wait 10 seconds just to cast it a 2nd time, and during battle that might feel like a long time especially when you need the damage right there at that moment. While waitin on it's recharge, you don't got much other skills to do damage with.
"The improvements to double recharge mods allow you to use SS rapidly without taking another skill slot"
There's another reason to echo it - Double recharge on the copied SS. If you don't echo it, relying on a 40% chance of that happening is risky when fighting tougher enemies.
"And with the new AI, enemies don't group up as easily"
I've seen enemies flee from AoE fire spells, I've seen enemy casters flee from warriors, but I don't think I've ever seen any ai react in a smart way when it comes to dealing with SS.
"Then, Arcane Echo recharges for 30 seconds. That makes it completely useless for the next mob you fight"
It's Pve. 30 secs isn't bad at all, especially since echo'ing it helps deals with mobs fast. Use Arcane like you'd use Meteor shower - just don't waste it on small mobs. Use it when fighting a huge group that could be a threat, then you'll be really glad you brought it.
"Factions and Nightfall brought many new skills, which far surpass the power of an Arcane Echo + SS"
You only listed a few skills, and they're all Nec. I still don't see why I should change my 2ndary to somethin else when I can use Arcane Echo's unlinked coolness
Master Fuhon
Looks like there's more of a problem with Spiteful Spirit itself rather than Arcane Echo'ing it. If you are counting on Spiteful Spirit to kill something (as with any other skill), then the best thing you could get is another copy of that skill. Note the reference to Underworld farming, where the skillbar is packed with survival and needs a money skill to take things down. But obviously, delivering damage immediately kills better than fighting an endurance match.
If you rely of damage-over-time skills, mobs can scatter, kite, or heal themselves to negate the damage you rely on (theorycraft, I know, its PvE). Otherwise, you can spike them out with instant damage that can only be countered by protection skills and a scarce amount of anti-spike defenses(silver armor, incoming,etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
If you rely of damage-over-time skills, mobs can scatter, kite, or heal themselves to negate the damage you rely on (theorycraft, I know, its PvE). Otherwise, you can spike them out with instant damage that can only be countered by protection skills and a scarce amount of anti-spike defenses(silver armor, incoming,etc).
Quote:
I respect your complaints to the point that there are alot of people who never adapt their skill bars in PvE/PvP depending on where and what they end up doing with them.
Arcane Echo->SS->SS or GoR->Meteor Shower->GoR->Meteor Shower
Both simple builds that work, and both could use some spike damage inserted between the combo.
ss1986v2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
Use Arcane like you'd use Meteor shower - just don't waste it on small mobs. Use it when fighting a huge group that could be a threat, then you'll be really glad you brought it.
i think you made the best argument here for arcane. not every mob needs to be echoed on. thats why you bring along the before mentioned skills like desecrate/defile and reckless haste. the arcane/ss skill bar has plenty of room to include a variety of skill. arcane is only taking up one slot, and its unlinked, allowing for a better attribute spread. i mean look at the minimum skill bar that a ss has to have:
arcane echo
ss
*whatever*
*whatever*
*whatever*
*whatever*
*whatever*
Rez sig
doesnt look like they are in vital need of more room, does it? throw in desecrate and defile for direct dmg, reckless haste for mob cover and synergy with ss, the revitalized mop, and maybe spec into blood for br or whatever else you want, or maybe bring along signet of lost souls or whatever well you find handy.
seems like its just a matter of preference rather than necessity.
arcane echo
ss
*whatever*
*whatever*
*whatever*
*whatever*
*whatever*
Rez sig
doesnt look like they are in vital need of more room, does it? throw in desecrate and defile for direct dmg, reckless haste for mob cover and synergy with ss, the revitalized mop, and maybe spec into blood for br or whatever else you want, or maybe bring along signet of lost souls or whatever well you find handy.
seems like its just a matter of preference rather than necessity.
Liv Von Stantvoort
Im sorry but the OP is out of his nut.
Arcane Echo's effectiveness is NOT negated by the new skills. The new skills only enchance Neccy builds that already use AE.
AE, SS, Defile, Desecrate, Reck Haste etc etc = Powerful all-pupose PVE build
AE doesnt just mean you get to cast 2 SS, it means that you can get 2-5 SS casts on ONE mob with the HST/HCT mods.
lols..
Arcane Echo's effectiveness is NOT negated by the new skills. The new skills only enchance Neccy builds that already use AE.
AE, SS, Defile, Desecrate, Reck Haste etc etc = Powerful all-pupose PVE build
AE doesnt just mean you get to cast 2 SS, it means that you can get 2-5 SS casts on ONE mob with the HST/HCT mods.
lols..
Blaze Emup
I have been playing SS necro for about a year and a half now. I have always used AE unless I'm skill capping and don't take mesmer secondary. I had no problems in the Realm of Torment at all. I say why not let people play how they want. If you feel your build is better then use it, but don't try to force feed it to anyone else. I have always found having an echo'd SS is more handy than one.
Stig Figger
I'll take the side of continuing to use AE, the reason being that mobs are generally larger nowadays so it's useful to have an SS on the cluster of melee fighters in front and one on a caster or ranger in the mid/back. (And as soon as they're ready, the second pair of SSs split between front and backlines as well). Remember, most everyone in your party is targeting the closest foe so an echo'd SS isn't particular useful on the next closest foe cuz he's probably taking AoE damage from the first SS. So 'tab' a couple of times to find a backline target.
I personally have not observed any enemy AI scatter that has really altered the effectiveness of this battle strategy since NF. What I have observed is hero/henchmen preference to target enemy healers when no targets are called, so you don't need to be really careful with tabbing to find the healer for an SS (it's usually wasted since the ally AI has pretty much taken him out by time you find him). Bonus.
I personally have not observed any enemy AI scatter that has really altered the effectiveness of this battle strategy since NF. What I have observed is hero/henchmen preference to target enemy healers when no targets are called, so you don't need to be really careful with tabbing to find the healer for an SS (it's usually wasted since the ally AI has pretty much taken him out by time you find him). Bonus.
Fluffyx
Agreed, AE + SS is still a powerful combo. As the OP mentioned about the HSR mods this only makes AE + SS a more powerful combo. SS by itself is weak but doubling it can increase its effectiveness and having use of the skill triple and even quadruple times in which you could have spread it to a large number of enemies. As mentioned AE is an unattributed skill meaning it needs no point investment, there is no other skill besides SS that fits better then AE.
XvArchonvX
Just because you can now run a legitamate SS without AE doesn't mean that AE is any lesser of a choice.
LightningHell
AE/SS is a powerful combo.
For farming.
For farming.
Cebe
I stopped liking SS as much since I capped Feast of Corruption.
So, @ OP, I've never used Arcane Echo for SS
So, @ OP, I've never used Arcane Echo for SS
Tarkin
Using AE + SS is a art...
But i agree the foes are deads before you can cast the 3 SS
and you cant find a target...
LOL
But i agree the foes are deads before you can cast the 3 SS
and you cant find a target...LOL
Random Dude
yea ss alone takes way too long to kill
and anyway 3 enemies will allways atk even if they under ss the rest will flee
well thats what allways happens when i dual uw 3 smites allways r on the monk the rest come after me 0.0
and anyway 3 enemies will allways atk even if they under ss the rest will flee
well thats what allways happens when i dual uw 3 smites allways r on the monk the rest come after me 0.0
boxterduke
Other combos might be more useful than Arcane Echo+SS but to say not use Arcane Echo at all is just not viable.
Unless you mean stop using it with SS then thats a different story.
I still find lots of uses for it.
Unless you mean stop using it with SS then thats a different story.
I still find lots of uses for it.
Dutch Masterr
arcane echo is good to spread SS to more than 1 player as it has a long recharge time. i personally dont use ss, but i do use arcane echo. i echo life transfer all the time, and that works great. the long recharge dor arcane echo though is terrible and can probably be replaced with something more usefull...depends on your build