Air and Fire

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

19 Nov 2006 at 22:43 - 1

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

20 Nov 2006 at 03:48 - 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Hi elementalist people. I'm running a pretty standard build at the moment, and was wondering about maybe if I should switch elements. What I use for pve is this.

10+1+1 Air Magic
11+1 Energy Storage
10 Healing

Blinding Flash
Enervating Charge/Gale
Air Attunement
Glyph of Sacrifice
Res Chant
Elemental Attunement {E}
Heal Party
Lightning Orb

I find that since I haven't capped Ether Prodigy yet, Heal Party really drains me, so I'll take Gale there instead, or something else like Windborn Speed or Chain Lightning. I'm really close to capping Ether Prodigy, so I was wondering if I should make the switch to Fire Magic. Thing is, I can't for the life of me see how the efficient damage of Fireball makes up blind, weakness, anti kiting skills, etc.. I find playing an air elementalist to be definitely comparable to a monk in terms of support, and I'm not sure I could justify the switch to fire. I know Ensign and Lightning Hell will use fire ele builds, but I don't think I've seen anything like that specified. *hint hint*

Can someone explain to me why you'd want to run fire? When I play a Fire elementalist, I really miss the utility of Blinding Flash, Windborne Speed and Gale. So, when I "play" fire, I usually play part-Air part-Fire.

For example, something like this;

Elementalist/Monk
Energy Storage: 8 +1
Air Magic: 9 +1
Fire Magic: 10 +1 +1
Healing Prayers: 9

Blinding Flash
Fireball
Gale/Windborne Speed
Heal Party
Ether Prodigy
Meteor Shower
Glyph of Sacrifice
Resurrection Chant

In short, I don't think switching to Fire is worth it, but Fireball is quite a bit better than Lightning Orb, and Meteor Shower has knockdowns...

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

20 Nov 2006 at 07:20 - 3

Dual attunement air spiker was always decent at dealing out direct damage on a target, but it usually brought the big 3 of air magic damage spells: orb, strike, and charge. I reccomend capping prodigy asap for fueling party though, because then you're more useful than a warrior, whereas before you were taken because people didn't know a warrior would be better in that roll.

When I play fire, I just go straight up searing flames+glowing gaze+liquid flame. No utility because I'm actually doing damage for once. You could probably squeeze in an extinguish, but I like to run GoLE and Glyph of Sacrifice+rez chant, so my bar is tight. You could drop either glyph of liquid flame for something like draw, heal party, or extinguish...I just haven't cared to yet.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

20 Nov 2006 at 08:36 - 4

In random arena, I would run away from ether prodigy as fast as I could. It tends to make you a bit more squishy than I find entirely comfortable. On your build, I would probably throw in aura of restoration as a cover for your attunements and drop HP entirely. Without ether prodigy there's not a lot of point in it anyway.

I find lightning javelin to be much better than strike. The 2 second recharge lets you throw out quite a few more of them, while inconveniencing attacking physicals you were too lazy to blind. You'll have to be in line of site to use orb anyway, so why not use javelin?

In PvE I run something like this for dual attunements:

E/me
16 Air
13 ES

Lightning Javeling
Lightning Orb
Blinding Flash
Epidemic
Aura of Restoration
Air Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Rez siggy

For RA, I would toss epidemic for enervating charge or gale. For high end PvP, just run an ether prodigy guy.

If you run fire, it seems to me like you should commit to it and just run searing flames. Fireball is nicer than orb, but the fire line has so little utility there's not that much point in speccing it if you don't plan to run a damage build.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

20 Nov 2006 at 08:57 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

When I play a Fire elementalist, I really miss the utility of Blinding Flash, Windborne Speed and Gale. So, when I "play" fire, I usually play part-Air part-Fire.

For example, something like this; Haha thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know. Do you actually run that build because you like the extra fire stuff, or is just what you take so that your party thinks you're a "nuker"?

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

20 Nov 2006 at 10:34 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Haha thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know. Do you actually run that build because you like the extra fire stuff, or is just what you take so that your party thinks you're a "nuker"?

Anyways I capped Prodigy today but haven't had a chance to try it out. I think I'll throw out Orb entirely and just use all utility..

Res Chant
Glyph of Sacrifice
Gale
Blinding Flash
Enervating Charge
Windborn Speed
Heal Party
Ether Prodigy {E}

Or maybe throw out Enervating.. I don't know, I find it hard to use that skill. Even though I know it causes weakness, I just have the urge to throw blind on top. Then there's no need for it. *shrug*

:EDIT:

What do you guys think of Blinding Surge as an elite for this type of role? Worth it? I like the idea of using Epidemic, though that would mean throwing away my sexy res. T.T Yup, you can throw away Enervating.

Your build is largely alright.

Blinding Surge is, IMO, more suited to characters that don't need their Elite slot. Elementalists can be built to accomodate such a requirement, however, they lose Heal Party. When I go into PvE, I can carry just Ether Prodigy and Heal Party and be perfectly content.

And yes, I carry Fireball so people think I'm nuking - or if there's just so many monsters clogged together it's a waste not to use Fireball.

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

20 Nov 2006 at 11:11 - 7

E/me is garbage. Pretty much everywhere these days.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

20 Nov 2006 at 12:02 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

E/me is garbage. Pretty much everywhere these days. While I'll agree with you that the typical echo nuker is trash, skill like epidemic and auspicious incantation are certainly very useful when used in the right situation.

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

20 Nov 2006 at 13:01 - 9

where, may I ask, are these skills good?

A_Muppet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

20 Nov 2006 at 16:46 - 10

Simple. Against a group, so do immolate on soemone or mark of rodegert and a fire spell, then follow it up with endemic. Mass burny.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

20 Nov 2006 at 17:44 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

where, may I ask, are these skills good? Blinding flash isn't quite as hot as it is in PvE because you don't have one or two bloodthirsty warriors with excellent skillbars raging in your face, you have 10 warriors with substandard bars. Blinding one enemy out of a mob isn't going to have THAT much of an effect on their damage output. So, simple solution, make them all blind and you've got a defense against physicals more effective than aegis or ward vs. melee.

Auspicious incantation is one of the most powerful non-elite energy management skills. When used on a 25 energy spell, you'll pretty much get a full energy recharge. If the extra recharge time bothers you, bring glyph of renewal (which has many oter uses).

As for mass burning, I have no idea why you'd bother with anything but searing flames. Spreading a condition that only last for 3 seconds anyway seems pointless.

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

21 Nov 2006 at 00:47 - 12

Auspicious Incantation is trash. You have energy...and nothing to use it on. Plus I don't really fancy my E-Management having a one-minute recharge.

In high-level areas, usually there are only a few physicals (like, 3, max?) in a group. Not ten.

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

21 Nov 2006 at 04:49 - 13

The only places I can think of with a lot of phsyical are those scarab guys. and they all have frenzy, so they go down in two hits.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

21 Nov 2006 at 10:18 - 14

I think in Tyria there are a lot more places with more physicals.. well.. maybe not. What about on the docks mission? It's crawling with dervishes, paragons and warriors. That's the only time I like Enervating, when there are just tons of enemies that I could never possibly blind.

Anyways thanks so much for all the responses guys, you rock.

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

21 Nov 2006 at 10:41 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Muppet

Simple. Against a group, so do immolate on soemone or mark of rodegert and a fire spell, then follow it up with endemic. Mass burny. Lightning already went over auspicious, so I'll adress this: Searing flames is going to be infinitely more efficient than running epidemic.

Also, you lose the best hard rez in the game.

On the docks mission, I'm pretty sure I ran what lightning had posted. It's still saved on my template as "The only nuker I ever loved" because before searing flames, it was.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Nov 2006 at 16:15 - 16

Double post action...

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 Nov 2006 at 16:37 - 17

I genuinely can't believe you are arguing that AoE blind is not better than single target blind. In almost every zone in Factions and Prophecies (I haven't been far in Nightfall) there are at bare minimum, 3 physicals, and usually more. A normal flasher can only keep 2 targets consistently blind. You blind one, wait 5 seconds, then blind the other, then wait 5 more seconds. Blind only lasts 10 seconds, so by now you have to reblind your first target.

Auspicious incantation is effective on renewal nukers. Before you flame the crap out of me for saying renewal nukers suck (They do in most areas, 5 second cast for an AoE DoT is just too slow) they do have a role. They are an integral part of the most common build for The Deep, and people often request them for FoW. It's effective non-elite energy management, which there aren't a heck of a lot of options for. The most effective one, glyph of lesser energy, isn't really an option because it doesn't work with glyph of renewal.

To the OP:
Your build looks good, although I would toss windborne speed for storm djinn's haste if you need a speed boost. The only real purpose for enervating is to cover blind, so if that's not a big issue, forget about it. Blinding surge is nice if you don't have much else to do besides blinding, but usually it's nice to have some more utility on your bar.

Francis Crawford

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

21 Nov 2006 at 20:44 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Muppet

Simple. Against a group, so do immolate on soemone or mark of rodegert and a fire spell, then follow it up with endemic. Mass burny. Just how many seconds of mass burning is that?

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

21 Nov 2006 at 23:01 - 19

isnt the area of effect for mark of rodegert and epidemic similer?
gonna see if i have /me unlocked on my ele for blind+epidemic fun

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

21 Nov 2006 at 23:54 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

We are not arguing that single target blind is better than multi-target blind. However, putting E/Me means losing so much /Mo stuff that I ask myself, why not just run a Me/E and get the same results and more?

Quote: Auspicious incantation is effective on renewal nukers. Before you flame the crap out of me for saying renewal nukers suck (They do in most areas, 5 second cast for an AoE DoT is just too slow) they do have a role. They are an integral part of the most common build for The Deep, and people often request them for FoW. It's effective non-elite energy management, which there aren't a heck of a lot of options for. The most effective one, glyph of lesser energy, isn't really an option because it doesn't work with glyph of renewal. I'd say, go with other non-elite Energy management. For example, Power Drain.

Quote:

To the OP:
Your build looks good, although I would toss windborne speed for storm djinn's haste if you need a speed boost. The only real purpose for enervating is to cover blind, so if that's not a big issue, forget about it. Blinding surge is nice if you don't have much else to do besides blinding, but usually it's nice to have some more utility on your bar. I would stick Windborne Haste on it simply because you can apply it on another ally. Frequently you don't need the speed boost, but somebody else needs one.

And to your last comment, you don't sound like you've played an Elementalist in a GvG.

My finger's stuck on the Heal Party button all the time. One of the prime reasons to run an Elementalist, IMO, is for the Heal Party spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

isnt the area of effect for mark of rodegert and epidemic similer?
gonna see if i have /me unlocked on my ele for blind+epidemic fun 3 seconds of epidemic fun, you mean.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

22 Nov 2006 at 01:38 - 21

Blast, why do my posts keep not showing up for 5 minutes?

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

22 Nov 2006 at 01:56 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Sometimes HP spam is the best way to stop your team from dying. Sometimes blinding everything is better. It all depends on where you're going. The uber rez is nice, but really, how often do you need the two skill slots you used on it in PvE? At any rate, Me/E doesn't have the energy to cast blinding flash + epidemic for very long at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell I'd say, go with other non-elite Energy management. For example, Power Drain.

Power Drain at 10 inspiration give you 21 for the succesful interrupt. Minus the cost of the spell itself, that's 16 energy every 25 seconds, given that you manage to interrupt a target as soon as it recharges, which is kinda hard. That comes to 16/25 = 0.64 energy/second, or .64 * 3 = 1.92 pips

Auspicious incantation at 10 inspiration used on a 25 energy spell will give 42 energy every 55 seconds. Minus the cost of the spell, that's 37 energy every 55 seconds. 37/55 = 0.673 energy/second, or 0.673 * 3 = 2.02 pips. Additionaly, if you use glyph of renewal on auspicious instead of the spell in question, i.e. recharging a spell for an extra 30 seconds, you can gain a bit more in an emergency.

Power drain is nice for the interrupt, and better on a primary mesmer, but as far as actual energy management goes, auspicious is the clear winner.

Quote: Originally Posted by LightningHell

I would stick Windborne Haste on it simply because you can apply it on another ally. Frequently you don't need the speed boost, but somebody else needs one. Ah, good point, was just thinking of the best self speed boost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

And to your last comment, you don't sound like you've played an Elementalist in a GvG.

My finger's stuck on the Heal Party button all the time. One of the prime reasons to run an Elementalist, IMO, is for the Heal Party spam. My comment about not having as much utility if you run blinding surge? You can't spam heal party for very long without your elite energy management... Surge is nice on teams with a paragon, as paragon tend to be pretty nifty at party defense so you don't need HP as much, but otherwise, ether prodigy is much better.

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

22 Nov 2006 at 02:57 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Of course. Me/E's usually use Blinding Surge, not Flash + Epidemic.

Quote:

Quote:

My comment about not having as much utility if you run blinding surge? You can't spam heal party for very long without your elite energy management... Surge is nice on teams with a paragon, as paragon tend to be pretty nifty at party defense so you don't need HP as much, but otherwise, ether prodigy is much better. Whoops, didn't see that part. And I am arguing for Prodigy. <3 Prodigy.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

22 Nov 2006 at 03:23 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

By 0.1 pips, mind.

The other consideration is the flexibility of your Energy management. You have to sacrifice a spell to use your Energy management, and you must have over 35 energy to be able to use your combination to the fullest extent. It becomes a lot more than .1 pips when you consider the time you spend searching for a target trying to find a spell to interrupt, and lost energy from missed interrupts. Besides, power drain sucks on eles for the same reason it sucks on monks-it's just a pain to stop what you were doing and search for something to interrupt.

Secondly, you don't sacrifice a spell when using glyph of renewal. That's the whole point. If you're in trouble, you can sacrifice a spell and get some free energy, but you don't have to.

True, you do need over 35 energy, but worst case scenario you can switch to your +30/-2 regen set, or just use auspicious on a less expensive spell. At any rate, my original point was that going /me can be good for a few select builds for energy management. Whether you choose to use power drain or auspicious, you're still E/me.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

22 Nov 2006 at 06:50 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

....
I would stick Windborne Haste on it simply because you can apply it on another ally. Frequently you don't need the speed boost, but somebody else needs one.
....

That's exactly why I use it.. Gale on the target aggressor and Windborn on the target works great for nasty physical enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

It becomes a lot more than .1 pips when you consider the time you spend searching for a target trying to find a spell to interrupt, and lost energy from missed interrupts. Besides, power drain sucks on eles for the same reason it sucks on monks-it's just a pain to stop what you were doing and search for something to interrupt. And that's what makes it awesome on heroes. XD

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

22 Nov 2006 at 07:26 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

And that's what makes it awesome on heroes. XD And Koreans. Their monks interrupt me every damn time - that is if they're taking Power Drain.

And yes, it is good for a few select builds. I wouldn't for a perma-spot in ICE/QQ/iQ/WM run those "few select builds" though.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

22 Nov 2006 at 16:49 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

And that's what makes it awesome on heroes. XD Yeah all my heroes who need emanagement take power drain or leech sig. They're insane with it. Sadly, they suck with almost everything else. (Ever given Zhed ether prodigy? It is NOT pretty).

Equinox L

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Nov 2006

Fear is Part of Life

E/Me

24 Nov 2006 at 20:29 - 28

In a random arena, I walk around, and attack from the behind. It's funny to walk the suckers die.

Anyone here got Nightfall?

How do I get Avatar pic?

menelik_seth

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Jeddah, KSA

Celestial Solace

26 Nov 2006 at 00:42 - 29

For PvE:

Strictly from a dmg POV (ignoring any utility spells I might need); I go fire/geo when I want AoE dmg; and air/water whenever I want to spike. And it really depends on the area and the nature of what I come up against. I'll give a few examples:

In areas where there are a lot of melee/rangers that like to cluster: I go E/R, I bring along Brambles, Unsteady Ground, Earthquake and keep all the foes steadily bleeding and on their rears.

In areas where there are a lot of casters that like to cluster, or areas where the spaces are confined, I bring Meteor Shower and other standard nuking spells.

If I am after a certain boss, or in an area that is generally fast paced and the combat is fast and furious than I'll either go air spike or water/illusion (Phantasm/Shatter Stone/Accumulated Pain/Vapor Blade) for some surprisingly whopping dmg.

I generally like to have fun with my Elementalist and switch up builds a lot to find interesting ways to kill foes

For PvP:

I'm not much help here as I don't PvP much; but the few times I did GvG I found myself ditching Orb as it was kited a lot.

I also preferred to hide out of sight or those pesky rangers/warriors; so I took non-directional spells like L. Hammer, L. Strike, L. Surge, Enervating Charge, etc. and assisted the team with utility spells such as blinding flash.

A note on energy management:

Personally, I find energy management to be more about rhythm and pacing; knowing when to spike and when to hold out on casting. It's more or less about casting efficiently; as opposed to button-mashing and wondering where all my mana went. So I don't really stress out with dual attunements or elite energy management spells like Ether Prodigy; unless I am playing to my secondary.