Professions and their place in combat

When I first started playing gw, I figured casters were the coolest, but they could not stand toe to toe for long since their abilities were best "ranged", and warriors were good for "melee" attacks at close range. To that end, I figured each profession has it's strong points and weaknesses. For example casters have lower armor compared to a warrior, but warriors have limited energy.

My question is this, have the roles of each profession become blurred? It seems to me nost players want to be a tank and charge in and fight. If they die frequently they cry nerf. If they encounter players with more skill or experience in combining moves again they cry nerf. (I don't know what devs are paid but I'm sure it's not enough) .

I thought/think they go as follows (profession roles in combat):

First in warriors, they are the bullet bags and meat sheilds they take max damage and are expendable. They should get used to dieing alot. It goes with the gig as it were.

Caster and monks act as air support, healers and protectors.
Rangers/Paragons act as ranged or air support as well and Paragons act as feild generals.

Assassins/Dervishes act as gorilla fighters moving in and out quickly to hit and run.

Are these concepts accurate?

I think you're more or less set, except for the Dervishes. They can tank a crapload if the build is right.

Also, these general concepts don't mean much as sometimes people use their secondary more (think of me wiping people up with a 'Sin skill bar while having an R/A - priceless).

These are the 6 original classes, and whats special about them:

Warrior - high armor, middle damage, resistance, low energy (takes a lot of damage and deal a bit)
Ranger - middle armor, middle damage, condition spreading, interrupting (stays in the background dealing some damage, spread conditions and interrupt)
Monk - low armor, low damage, healing, protecting (stays in the background avoiding damage, heal and/or protect)
Necromancer - low armor, middle damage, minions, hexes (stays in the background dealing some damage and summoning minions)
Mesmer - low armor, low damage, interrupting, degens, weakening (stays in the background dealing degens and weakening opponents)
Elementarist - low armor, high damage, aoe spells, high energy (stays in the background dealing a lot of damage and casting aoe spells)

These are the 4 additional classes, and whats special about them:

Assassin - middle armor, high damage, fast movement, quick attacks (quickly gets front, deals a lot of damage and retreats to recover)
Ritualist - low armor, high damage, spirits, items, slow attacks (stays in the background dealing some damage and summoning spirits)

Paragon - high armour, low damage, chants, shouts, low energy (stays front taking some damage, uses shouts and chants)
Dervish - middle armour, middle damage, enchantments, conditions, avatars (deals a lot of damage to nearby enemies whilst healing himself and dealing conditions with enchantments)

Its pretty clear what every class is supposed to do and whats special about each class. What you notice is that the first 6 classes totaly fit to each other and the new ones are just intrudors to the system.

There's a secondary profession mechanic in the game. Understand the kind of options it provides. Take a look at the huge number of skills in the game (with extremely different functions) and the number you can slot at one time. Do this for a long time and you'll see that Guild Wars isn't so rock-paper-scissors when it comes to professions.

I made revisions . This kind of characterization is extremely, extremely flawed though. You can't account for the massive pressure scythes allow you. You can't account for a Thumper. You can't account for a smite monk. *Spears deal more damage than bows*

I wouldnt call a mesmer low dmg -- probably medium dmg

you forgot to mention how good mesmers are at countering everything!
specifically to *spiking* players who attack or cast


just for context, a common Mesmer antimelee spike illusion build (with illusion of 16) is
Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Images of Remorse
-- casted on an attacking melee target, creates a spike for 294

all 3 hexes can be casted in less than 5 sec

Mesmers = 1v1 Bane.

Is their an anti mesmer build?

I duno, but I do love Broadhead arrow. Best elite ever!

The best bit about Guild wars is that their arnt always set roles for players. Depending on the build, in a team one of the monks may be doing more damage then the elementalist in the team, and the elementalist may be being more of a nuisance(conditions, KD etc) then the Mesmer.

Saying that one class is high damage or low damage is a bit too oversimplistic to get a decent idea of what is going on. Some professions may do high damage, but it is generally single target damage, whereas another profession may be better at dealing AoE damage (ex: warriors to eles). Also, I think the perception of eles being medium damage is a bit outdated. With the release of Searing Flames and Sandstorm, eles can deal very large amounts of damage. Even with milder AoE spells, an ele can still outdamage a warrior by virtue of inflicting smaller amounts of damage to a larger number of targets (yes, warriors have some AoE capability like Cyclone Axe, but it is much smaller in range than many ele spells.)

I would say that the roles of classes blurs, but for the most part, it's only with certain classes. Rangers can build for damage dealing and do very well at it, such as in a Barrage or Thumper build, but they can also build for shutdown/disruption as well (i.e. interupts and debilitating shot). Mesmers are also like this in that they can deal very large single target damage under the right conditions, but they can also build to completely shutdown targets without inflicting much damage at all. Elementalists can now build to do some very strong damage or they can play a strong support role with heals, snares, and condition removals with the right secondary.

Theres a concept that every class can tank. It all depends on what skills are on the bar. There have been many solo builds that are not dependent on any supporting characters.
Take a barrage/pet team of 5 rangers, 2 necros, and 1 monk. No tank, no ele, 1 monk.
The concept of professions having their place in combat would be dependent on the situation. And as you know, every situation is different so having this concept is....well....a waste.

The existance of exceptions does not negate the prevalence of generalizations.

It's somewhat pointless to assign roles to primary classes. A b/p team is doesn't have a single tank, yet goes against mobs that one-hit kill casters. A warrior with max armor is nothing compared to dolyak warrior with 1500 health. A 55 build, indestructible without enchant removal (almost). And so on.

Your build determines the role. So when talking about professions, it's better to consider the roles a primary class can perform well.

Gandulf with a sword?

If you're traditional view on casters are those mages throwing fireballs in the back, then you're so wrong! Casters are actually much stronger in melee range than range, because...of touch spells.

Touch spells are usually two to three times stronger than ranged spells. Vampiric Touch for example. And Blackout, Starburst, Restore Life, Renew Life, are all touch range spells and they are VERY powerful.

When I saw this I sound out loud 'What the hell is this noob smoking?'

I'm pretty sure Ensign proved the Warrior has the highest dps and if not The highest, one of the highest spikes in the game with the Eviscerate, Executioners Strike combo.

Yeah, and now with the addition of Critical Chop you can add about 70 damage per spike attack vs a squishie so quickly it's almost un-healable.

If there was an anti mesmer build there would be an anti anti mesmer build. Mesmers can counter anything 1v1.

the mesmers counter? another mesmer. Or if u can hit a mesmer in 5 seconds with enough damage to kill them

@ Fluffyx There is a good reason so many people speak against 1 x 1 battles. As a warrior, if knew I was facing a mesmer one on one, I'd go W/Me and use Blackout and Distortion and kill you with my axe.

If you think you can kill someone in 5 seconds with axedps go for it buddy. Thats giving you max blackout 5sec (domination line)

Missread this while in a hurry

i think it is pointless to assign a role to each class(with the exception of warrior they mostly tank, run, and farm)

for example: spell caster as you stated are support, however, spell caster can also be the one to deal the most dmg in a group ex: spiker build.
angers are not just for ranged either. youve got the bunny thumper build(tho its not too great) but that does give the ranger a option of going melee

a class cant be assigned to a role in the party. people just do it. a 55 monk can do melle just as well as a w/mo

If you list the various kinds of function, most can be performed by several classes. For example:

AoE damage -- Elementalist, SS necro, Barrage ranger
Healing -- Monk, Ritualist, Dervish (?)
Protection -- Monk, Ritualist, Elementalist, Warrior, Paragon
Tanking -- Most or all of them
Disruption -- Ranger, Mesmer, knockdown warrior, and almost any caster who carries a couple of Inspiration interrupts to boost energy

In the case of the mesmer at least, you can't assign any one specific role to them. I would classify them as specialists in adaptation. Even their patron deity is the goddess of illusions - able to take on whatever form (read "role") is needed at the time.

Clearly you have not been hit 200+ in one scythe attack before (chilling victory, reaper's counting the wound, etc). Their attacks are also AoE, and at VoD they are hellish. While warriors might have a higher spike Dervishes have huge dps.

I would rather class necromancer as degen kind rather than mes, maybe its just me.

And to kill a mesmer 1v1, all you need is a sin. Remember kiddies shadow stepping is powerful indeed. (1v1 sucks anyway).

@ OP - Well, except for the Dervishes, that may be how the concepts started out.

This is how they ended up:

Melee
Warrior - overconfident, fragile ego, wishes could carry weapons in town to show off
Assasin - overconfident, boundless ego, insults bounce off
Dervish - confused, can't decide between melee and magic

Ranged
Ranger - inferiority complex, wants to be everybody else, takes pet everywhere (no BM skills, just pet)
Ritualist - loner, only needs her spirits to be happy, always playing with ashes
Paragon - bossy, needs to delegate more

Distance
Monk - smug, doesn't like melee characters as they waste his energy
Ele - scatterbrained, has trouble with stopwatch
Necro - loner, doesn't like to get near live people
Mesmer - selfconfident/arrogant, monk's favorite due to avoidance of getting clothes dirty

Hopefully, that little bit of humour has released the tensions building in this thread.

On Topic - The original concept was obviously the standard game mix - melee, ranged, distance. As new professions are being added, the devs are expanding roles, creating professions that both compliment and oppose the original ones. With the secondaries added into the mix, your choices become unlimited. You start the game with a warrior/monk (because everyone tells you that's the best) and end it with a warrior/necro (because you've discovered that combination better suits your play style).

Damage can be relative. While an ele can put out high DPS, it's often not as useful as a ranger's interrupts, which prevents damage to your party.

I fully agree. Once you get used to the slight disorientation cased by a shadowstep it's a huge tactical advantage. Although assassins can still be countered by mesmers - the assassin's higher attack speed and ability to doublestrike can leave them more vulnerable to certain hexes that trigger when the target makes an attack.

I think the beauty of GW is that no class has to stay in its set "region of combat" to be usable.

You can have such a wide variety of options to choose from that you're never limited to what you picked in the beginning in terms of playability and what you're interested in doing.

If you started with a necro but want to get into melee, roll a N/W and try some stuff out. Same with any other class / combo.

Basically, this game owns.

Thanks Darcy. I needed a good laugh and this thread did need some lightening up.

As to the "everybody can tank" concept: It may be true that every profession, played in the right way, is capable of at least limited tanking, I have personally seen far too many 'squishies' that THINK they can tank and end up sucking dirt real early in the battle. Learn your profession. Learn the capabilities and limitations and you will be an invaluable asset to any team!

First, although I am technically a 'squishy tank' I agree with quickmonty's comment about it. Anyone can tank, but some classes find it easier than others. Of all the caster classes, ele is the easiest to tank with, as they can easily boost their armour beyond levels which a warrior would be capable of. But I digress; The roles in which I see each class would be as follows, within their own skill selection and armours: (warning: extensive chart to follow... )

*-Core-*

Warrior: - The most poweful class, provided they can get to you. Average support and low healing, but highest damage and highest armour.
Damage: *****
Armour: *****
Healing: **
Support: ***
Attributes: Clearly set out and easy to use. All have skills of worth for various situations.

Monk: - The best healers by a long way. High Support, but low armour and virtually zero damage outside of Smiting.
Damage: *
Armour: **
Healing: *****
Support: ****
Attributes: Again, clearly set out and easy to use. Some cross over between attributes, but nothing major.

Ranger: - Adaptable class that is workable in melee. Low Healing, but excellent all round abilities otherwise. Capable spiker class.
Damage: ***
Armour: ****
Healing: **
Support: ***
Attributes: Expertise is most commonly neglected by 1st time rangers, but is the keystone of the ranger as a profession.

Elementalist: - Most adaptable class. Low healing, but competent in many different roles. Armour is below average, but easily buffed to high levels.
Damage: ****
Armour: ***
Healing: **
Support: ****
Attributes: Has high cross-attribute potential. Energy storage is overrated except for certain niche builds and builds with a lot of exhaustion.

Necromancer: - Adaptable Class. Average or above average in all areas but armour.
Damage: ****
Armour: **
Healing: ***
Support: ***
Attributes: A few cross attribute skills, generally though, skills within an attribute are confined to the role of that attribute.

Mesmer: - The counter-offensive class. Easily makes up in firepower what it lacks everywhere else.
Damage: *****
Armour: **
Healing: **
Support: **
Attributes: Domination is anti caster, Illusion is anti melee, Inspiration is E-Denial and E-management and Fast Casting does what it says on the tin. Some skills cross over between Domination and Illusion.

*-Factions-*

Assassin: - The best spiking Class. Medium armour, low support and poor healing.
Damage: *****
Armour: ***
Healing: *
Support: **
Attributes: Critical Strikes makes assassins a workable class. Dagger mastery is essential unless you are going for A/R, A/W or A/D for critical damage. Shadow Arts is not a brilliant skill set. Deadly arts is better, but needs points invested to really make it worthwhile, taking away from the assassin's spiking ability.

Ritualist: - Good healing and support Class. Low armour and average damage.
Damage: ***
Armour: **
Healing: ****
Support: ****
Attributes: Difficult to work with at first, as skills are all over the place and don't seem to follow any coherent set of rules per attribute, with the exception of restoration. Non healing ritualists will generally have to mix channeling and communing.

*-Nightfall-*

Paragon: - The best Support Class. Medium damage, High Armour, but low healing.
Damage: ***
Armour: ****
Healing: **
Support: *****
Attributes: Easily laid out, except for command, which is a bit of a mish-mash of what were seemingly abilities that didn't fit into any of the other attributes...

Dervish: - The best AoE damage class. Average armour, healing and support ability.
Damage: *****
Armour: ***
Healing: ***
Support: ***
Attributes: Whatever set of attributes you choose, they can all do a bit of everything - even scythe mastery has a heal, but be sure to invest at least 9, ideally 12 in Mysticism - it really does make all the difference.

A note on two of the ratings:
Ranger damage is 3*, because, although rSpike is a powerful thing, one ranger with a bow, without any buffs, has the lowest DPS of any of the martial classes.
Elementalist armour would warrant 2* if it were not for the huge number of armour buffs at their disposal. They can easily surpass the armour of a warrior with these, but because it is only conditional, it does not merit more than one additional star.

Well, there you have it - my lengthy opinion on not the roles best suited to each primary, but rather, the inherent strengths of each primary.

/phew

Interrupts are really interesting (...some might say geeky) to look at... but what do they fall under? Support? The thing is, I can look at them as virtual damage or virtual healing (similar to the concept of virtual damage though e-denial).

Virtual healing is like this - a mesmer interrupting a fireball (whatever) is the equivalent of a healer directly healing the damage it would have done to the party.

Virtual damage is the same but comes as interrupts vs. prots or heals - take an assassin, have a ritualist drop Warmonger's Weapon on them and sic the assassin on a monk. Apart from the monk having a really bad day, every heal/prot interrupted is virtual damage done by the ritualist. The ritualist could also be doing virtual healing by casting Wailing Weapon on an assassin and have them ruin every attack a dervish tries against some of your support.

Conditions, hexes and their removal have knock-on effects that can be considered virtual healing and damage too... blind being the most obvious form of virtual healing. I know rangers provide all sorts of support in this area that isn't direct - Dust Trap for instance isn't just doing damage, it's preventing enemy melee from doing any - thus providing virtual healing. Things get very complicated when indirect effects are looked at It's a really important thing for me to raise though, because classes that look so-so from their direct input are freaking gods when their indirect contributions are examined as well.

LOL.

Nice, but that would not work.

not true.....dervishes can be better tanks than warriors in many cases. It all depends on the skill and build of the player not the class but in general most of your other assumptions are correct

ROFL.

Do you know what Life Siphon, Life Transfer, Disease, and Bleeding are? Necros are incredible, and easily would be my favorite class. But their armor is paper thin and I enjoy melee too much.

In praticality, Warriors, Assassins and Dervs are the best damage dealers. Necros take the cake if they have an army, but that takes long and can be just as much of a curse as a blessing to your team if you die. Eles deal the most damage but they require the target to stay there and take it for 9 whole seconds... If you can trap them in a corner or someting Savannah Heat + Met Shower is insane. Rits are more for support and minor heals to the team, Para is all about support, and monks are all heals and prot. Rangers are great at spreading conditions and interrupts. Mesmers are good at degen and shutting down casters, but cant interrupt as frequently as rangers.

unless the assassin is using shadowform or something similar to stop all casting, Assassins are the *easiest* for mesmers to kill (if they attack) - with antimeelee build

ineptitude spikes for 142 and blinds for 10sec
clumsiness spikes for 92 and interrupts the chain attacks that assasins rely on

beyond that, using degen of -16 (Nightmare/Phantasm/Remorse)

kiss assassin goodbye
(yes the cap is 10 but goodluck outhealing 16)

In Ft Aspenwood, I killed tons of Mesmers with my Assassin. I'm not saying they were good Mesmers, or anti mele Mesmers, but I definitely killed the vast majority of the one's I faced. I was playing A/E and using a great knockdown build.

Of course I realize Ft Aspenwood isn't the best area to base a comparison between Assassins and Mesmers.

touche - about aspenwood not being the best place

thats what I based my experiences upon too (as Mesmer killing melee)

Warriors and Dervish can be killed just as easily with those two skills. Personally, I'd say a Warrior is more vunerable than an Assassin to them. Catch them mid spike while they're frenzying and that's -196, -284 + blind if they're not dead yet.

Professions and their place in combat.... hmmmmmm

Warrior way up front, everybody else in the back.
Other guys like assassins, dervishes and especially them ranged guys can start doing their thing when tank is done getting aggro.

Did Raisu palace today for somebody. 3 partywipes with pugs, 1 single attempt with full hench got us masters.
Pugs don't know how to wait for the warrior to go out there...

Buuut.. positions can change depending on build.
Examples are normal assassins vs crit barragers. Or touch rangers vs normal ones. Some MM necros like being closer to the battle than others.

etc..etc...
At least, that's how I see it (and had success with)

Depends on the secondary but Devine and Smite with Spell Breaker.Mo/Mes or Mo/N?

Ok. This is why no warrior has ever beaten my mesmer. What would distortion accomplish? The very second you get into my casting range, I'd have already cast empathy on you. Then when you black out me, I run and wait for my skills to recharge, which WILL be before yours do, since you CAN'T have high domination magic. Then I'd renew empathy on you and you'd be dead in seconds. Having a skill bar and knowing what to do against another skill bar makes the difference.

As for a dervish, a lot of people seem to just die repeatedly on them, yet they're very good at taking and dealing damage. A Grenth dervish is especially handy in PVP, while a Balthazar dervish is valuable in PVE. Conviction and Faithful Intervention rely on each other too.