Thinking outside the box

I've been b/ping and monking in Tombs lately, after a very long hiatus of monking there. A few nights past I ran into someone attempting to start a non-b/p group there, and complaining that nobody was thinking outside the box(not completely true as I had already run with a double mm team and a test build attempting to combine orders and mm).

Our response was that if she wanted people to play non-b/p then he/she should create a build that was just as fast, otherwise there wasn't much point(because the build wouldn't compete unless you felt like going slow). I always kinda feel sorry for the professions that want to play tombs and can't get into a bp build(though most just designate a character slot to that type of char). I only have a ranger and monk, so I kinda lucked out.

The point to this story is that I was wondering two things: Can we come up with a build other than b/p for the tombs? And what exactly makes a build a speed build(as wiki calls bp) rather than a gimmick build( as some call Iway, etc.)

I'll attempt to answer the second question myself, the first I would like the community's help with. As far as I can see, a gimmick build mainly exists in pvp, with the exception of dual/solo farming builds in pve(which can be considered "not intended", as they don't use close to a full team). Both gimmick and speed builds center around boosting a single attribute across the entire team(bp obviously has barrage, and centers healing/damage/etc around that). Thinking as I type, and with much deletion, I can't figure the difference between these builds and why certain builds are considered acceptable, while others are not (both can be instantly picked up by a decent player, and do not rely on 'skill'. But pve ones tend to be more accepted than pvp, perhaps because ai don't get miffed when destroyed.) So if anybody can clarify what they think the difference is, I would much appreciate it.

This second half of this long post is to see if we can replace b/p. If you don't care about reading builds, etc. please save yourself misery and skip past it. Thank you.

On to question 2(please forgive the length of this post): Can we create a build that will rival bp?
Here are the 'rules' I'm setting for myself, and anyone that chooses to insert a build:
1)Pick a skill and build the team around that (such as meteor).
2)If you don't know an exact class that well, don't worry about runes, attr. points, or exact skills. Just give a general idea of a possible build, and somebody more experienced with that class can fill it in.
3)Each team must be a full team of 8, and able be general enough that a person can be switched at a moments notice(i.e. b/p is a simple build which only requires a modicum of skill in pulling, mming, and monking. Even if one of these is subpar, skill in other areas can cover for it. Everyone else simply has to click barrage, over and over)
4)I would prefer that each team consist primarily of one class(just like b/p), so it doesn't require a great amount of coordination. In other words I would like any builds to be simple, for the same reason as 3, anyone should be able to pick this up(i.e. shouldn't be a high learning curve/high skill build like monkless bp).
5) Assume that each team may come with a monk or two to heal or protect. Also assume that each team may come with a mm to help bodyblock if necessary.

From what I can see many different builds would work in Tombs, mainly because of choke points which allow aoe to wreak havoc.

I will end this long post with a simple build(though I know little of eles):
6 eles
1 mm
1 monk.
Monk will handle healing in emergencies, though eles should be casting enough spells to keep their health up overall.
MM will create the usual shield to create a controlled crowd of monsters. This could be replaced in a skilled team with a trapper to pull and cripple mobs at choke points. If a mob can't move, they can't get to the casters.

Eles- Lets say fire nukers, so everyone has meteor shower. With earth magic you have some good extra armor, knockdowns, and (if memory serves) some wards. Adding water magic gives you slow downs and snares to possibly act where a trapper would. Air magic keeps them all blind as well as giving the speed for a good puller.

Secondaries can simply augment. Echo nukers anyone? Elemonk instead of normal monk?
The main point of the build is to draw enemies into a choke point and drop 6 meteor showers on their heads while they are crippled/slowed and can't move away. Any skills that deal damage while knocked down would also be quite powerful, as long as you can keep the enemy in that death zone. As wiki states that the uw creatures have no special resilience to elemental damage, a build like this should be quite interesting.

But that's just my two cents

Your turn.

edit: If you want to see why bp is so good, check out Antheus' post below. Using this information, lets try and think of a way to take advantage to those facts.

if youre going for eles, make 2 water eles, 2 warders and 2 echo nukers

May I assume the empty slots would be for the monk and MM? And I was also wondering if you could elaborate on how much skill you think it would take to run a build like that, as I'm going for any builds that can be run by complete idiots(to be completely frank). I walked in to a bp group not having not monked there in 6 months. I walked in as a ranger with a slightly tweaked build from wiki, and was able to contribute ably. Would having 2 water eles, 2 warders, and 2 echo nukers be that simple?
It sounds like it might, but then you'd also have the possible problem of finding 2 waters, 2 warders and 2 nukers, instead of simply saying 6 bp's. Might be a bit harder to coordinate than simply making sure there are 2 spirits.

Thanks for the help.

echo nukers: normal nukers, we all know the build :P--> must have manta of resolve

earth warders--> if monsters run past minions, and simply in beggining before there are any, the 6 squishies will need the self defence

water ele--> to slow mobs, so they dont run around and spike in same time

actually, anouther idea, maby make it 5 eles (only 1 warder or 1 water guy) and bring in a rit lord, to reduce spikes

the problem is that people simply dont see the huge potential water magic has, and just automaticly go fire. warders are not as hard to find, but water eles yet have to get in style. to be honest i only realised how powreful water can be only after my party got whyped cuz of 1 stupid deep freese (the thing that freeses all adjacent foes) and someone meteor showered us.

lets actually do it this way:

all fire eles E/me : rodg invocation, meteor, glyth of lesser energy, Met shower, glyth of renewal, ward vs melee, mata of resolve, rez (forget echo, it makes shower recharge too long, glyth makes it spamable)

warders E/mo: some damage, ward vs melee, ward vs foes, ward vs elements, that elite that blindes all foes (forgot name), heal party, rez

water: E/n: maelstorms (nothing will shut down dryders better, just make sure to cast when dryder "chose" his camping spot), deep freese, ice spikes, mind freese, blood ritual (effective even with VERY little blood attributes), vetaras aura (in case MM dies, no need to have alot Death magic), aura of restauration, rez

rit lord: i have no idea about rit builds, so gotta ask an experienced rit, but as much as i know since spirits "absorbe and buff" the shattering will not be there

monk: WoH i guess

necro: horrors, stamblings and golem only, of curse with BR in case water guy cant offer it atm


this should be very workable, as long as its people are working together, and not mindlessly spaming diffrent skills. maby first few runs should be done by people who have ALOT of experience with the given professions and they should be on TS/Vent all the time. ya the first run will be slow cuz its a work in progress, but after few practice runs this shouldnt take more then B/P groups, cuz damage output is way bigger.

as long as:

1- rit summons all the spirits

2-MM goes in first to take aggro on minions,

3- water guy freeses a bunch of mobs crowded and dangerous

4- 1 fire guy gos ahead and nuke away the mob, the other guy takes care of mobs that are not ib that tiny group

5- water guy keeps freesing anything that runs faster then a crippled monk

mobs?... what mobs? all i see is a whole bunch dead bodies!

***note: i just pulled all this out of my ass while watching tv, so feel free to comment or alterate, but imo the water eles are key to succes

Hi,

Tombs is my favorite place to play the game in all the chapters thus far. I don't go there for the chests or the greens anymore, I just go there for a good fight. I'm happy someone has made a topic on this subject.

I've got quite a bit of experience in Tombs,..matter of fact I'll make the leap that I in all likelihood have more experience in Tombs than any Ele out there, probably because I don't like to solo, use henchies, or even my heroes. I like to pug.

The things I have learned about balanced party makeup in Tombs I'd like to share. I take these two standpoints because of the prevalence of the b/p.

1. No MM's or Rangers - they simply leave the party, opting for the speedier b/p build. But the reason for not having a MM is twofold in that after each battle, the Ele must recover energy, while a frustrated MM must sit and wait watching his minions degen ever more quickly, and also most MM's are quite used to the pulling style of the b/p group, where in a balanced group the placement of the minions have to be done a bit differently. Instead of having the bonies pretty much up front with the support of 300 arrows making frest corpses, we wait for the pull to take place and the grasps to be pretty much on top of the group and preferrably inside any Wards so that the Ele's can launch their nukes effectively without having to worry about additional mobs being brought in.

2. Two WoH monks are necessary for any balanced build in Tombs. Though this can successfully be augmented by substituting a protection Ritualist. A group consisting of a bunch of Ele's will still need that extra healing power, as our armor (save for the Earth Ele) is just paper compared to a Ranger in there. You don't see a Pyromancer surviving a single grasp's third strike unhealed, if even the second.

Fingers of Chaos and the Ele - While Mantra of Resolve looks great for the Ele on paper in there, it really seems to be a sure fire way to make sure your first nuke is your last. In between the interrupts that will be attempted on you, draining your energy by that mantra's design, and 'Fear Me!', you will have little left to finish the fight. Mantra of Concentration is no good as well, as you only get one interrupt negated. If you feel that you can't get along without an anti interrupt as an Ele, Glyph of Concentration is what you'll want to bring, and if you're not an experienced Tombs Ele, you'll definately want to bring it if you want to cast a 3-second or longer spell. The Scythes aren't nearly as prone to interrupt a 2-second spell or lesser.

There are several builds I've come across that have had success in Tombs, though admittedly none have eclipsed the b/p in terms of speed. However that doesn't mean I don't think it's possible, especially now with the new skills Factions and Nightfall have given us.

A fun build might be to go all Ele's. It'd also be necessary in order to do enough damage to attempt to match the b/p in speed.


4 - Searing Flames Fire E/Me's
Searing Flames [E], Glowing Gaze, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Mantra of Flame, Aura of Restoration, Fire Attunement, Rez Sig

I've not run a Searing Flames build in Tombs yet, but SF is the hi damage spell of choice in Fire right now. Liquid Flame may be a good choice for the remaining slot. Mantra of Flame obviously for protection against the Dryders as well as the Siege Wurms, both of which do fire damage. At Inspiration at just 3 the Mantra negates 31% of that damage.


1 - Sandstorm Warding E/Me
Stone Daggers, Obsidian Flame, Sandstorm [E], Ward/Melee, Armor of Earth, Stone Striker, Mantra of Earth, Earth Attunement

This is my build of choice at the moment when going to Tombs with a random pug. It provides me with very good tanking ability and coupled with Geo armor the Dryder's Fireballs only do maybe 30 dmg to me. Obsi Flame is a two second spell to deal with the hide and seek wurms as well as an emergency spike, but considering the 4 Fire Eles in this build you could take Ward/Stability (wurms and dryders), or Ward/Elements (dryders).


1 - Bip Necro - what can I say - Ele's will need a generous bipper if they want to keep up with a b/p's pace, period. Do some blood spiking and spam wells, maybe some heal party action.

2- Healers - be it Monks or a Monk/Rit combo

There ya have it. Never had a Searing Flames group in Tombs before but I have done an all Ele team something like this with success. Searing Flames and Sandstorm may just have given the Ele's the added punch they needed to beat your run of the mill b/p, though I still don't think it'd beat the fastest of them.

I've also run Air in Tombs, providing spike dmg especially to the breakaway grasps as well as weakening/blinding,..just something for fun. A monk with a grasp on his butt is always thankful when I cast Windborne Speed on him.

But with Water, I hadn't been able to make this work in Tombs. Deep Freeze and Maelstrom are costly spells and there's just alot in there that already drain your energy. Ward/Harm even at 16 is just not good enough to keep you safe from the grasps, and Waters armor buffs aren't the best for the place considering their recharge times. But I haven't really gave it a shot with the new Nightfall skills and the update which helped Water out. If put into this build somewhere, possibly taking out the 2nd healer if the Necro spams Wells and Heal Party, then maybe:

Ice Spear, Steam, Freezing Gust, Vapor Blade, Blurred Vision, Ward/Harm, Aura of Restoration, Water Attunement

When tombs was just new I made a post describing the different setups that pugs took into tombs at the time. At the time B/P wasn't the norm but was becoming increasingly popular (mainly due to time considerations). Two chapters have come since, so I bet there are all kinds more balanced builds possible.

Here's a link to the thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=119246

In a balanced tombs party the Tank takes a prominent role, as described therein.

Also if I remember correctly the B/P build was originally used in 8v8 HA when the ranger spirits would have increased effect / attribute level. It's highly efficient in it's damage output and interrupt capabilities. Used to work pretty well against disorganised groups and thats why it works great in PvE settings.

In the thread some things might not sound logical now, but some skills were diffirent back then (like mantra of resolve, which is now an energy drain).

Thanks for all the input guys, and so nobody complains about this being in the wrong place, let me restate question 1 again: What do you think is the difference between a gimmick build and a speed build? what makes one accepted and the other not? Is it because one is in pvp, the other pve?

Back to the other half of the topic:

I think any kinks in a warder/water/nuker build could be worked out by a good guild and simplified for the masses. From the sound of it, the learning curve is lower than a trapper team but slightly higher than bp. Trapping would work extremely well, but I think the time involved in learning(let alone executing) would put off most speed demons.

I think the main reason that any build works in Tombs are the choke points, as I stated in my OP. It allows the Minions in a bp to block doors and closely group the enemies so that fire is concentrated. The stairs leading the final rooms are so narrow that their is no worry of possible strays like in earlier rooms. The ones that chase the monk? Those strays.

I suppose a possible change would be to go with Mist Form for Ele's, but this would probably take a higher degree of skill and lessen the fire power involved with having searing flames or meteor shower on board. I know there is an Ele/ranger build built to use that exclusively, but that is another thread.

Are there any Mesmer's out there that can contribute? With Interrupts the casters won't be any trouble, but the Grasps still would be. A minion master could be employed, or the snare tactic could be used by employing slow down spells before attaching Maelstrom to the top of the stairs. The first baddie may get through, but the grasps behind will have to walk through several Maelstroms to do anything.
Damage mitigation and healing would be extremely important roles in this build.

A necromancer team could simply blood spike, disease, or even eoe bomb everything to death. With minions and health stealing, the monk or rit would simply have to prepare for emergencies.

A warrior team would be interesting, but would most likely(in my opinion) simply be a holding wall to tank for a powerful caster in the rear. With intelligent human beings filling the role of minions,aggro could be controlled much more easily but damage mitigation and tanking abilities would be crucial. If they attempted to mow down everything with brute force, it would probably take awhile and be less effective than a dervish doing the same.

As for Assassins, Dervishes, And Paragons, I simply don't know enough about their abilities. I did see a paragon Barrager go through, and party buff shouts are extremely nice(54% extra chance to crit), but I don't know what aoe attacks they might have to create a team dependent on their firepower. Dervishes would probably do quite well with a good tanking build. Assassins would depend on the level of skill of the player(though I know a great crit ranger).

There are some more quick and dirty ideas to interest anyone as they wake up, I'm off to read that other thread for ideas.(thanks for the link)

But that's just my two cents

To answer your question:

Gimmick is imo something that relies on doing something non-class specific or relies heavily on some unbalance in skills. So for me a 55 hp monk would be a gimmick build, I would also consider the 2 paragon 2 mo 2 thumper teams for HA a gimmick build, same for the 4 SF eles and 2 monks. In pve there are a lot less gimmick builds i think (hmmm maybe an all trapper team, thats a gimmick build - traps).

Speed is just what get the job done as quickly as possible. B/P is your basic speed build, but I don't think that there are many other known speed builds.

I did it trapping once, got bored so quickly. Takes ages (unless you really know what you are doing, your teammates also and you have had a lot of practise).

I've tried interrupting once, at the time I felt that another Meteor Shower nuker would actually be more helpfull. Now with the new Nightfall skills (spiritual pain and ...... works like shame and guilt but does damage spell) I think that a mesmer would actually be a good supplement to the team.

Assassins and Dervishes are an unknown factor to me too. An assassin can be critical barrager, but I saw compared dmg charts and the barrage ranger comes out on top.

For Paragons I see alot of promise, the armor buff and party buff shouts could be very useful.

Side notes:
In my original thread I took 3 monks in balanced teams, this isnt needed, two preferably healing monks can do the job, we took 3 monks at the time because before we were halfway through we would always lose one.

Fastest I did with b/p was 35 mins, was not all that enjoyable though.

If you need someone for a balanced ToPK team gimme a pm, I still love it. I'm usually online 20.00-0.00 gmt+1, but after this weekend please, there is a new elite area opening

Well a B/P has so many advantages over other teams one being pets and minions meaning need less healing for "real" players and the fact that they have interupts and all deal AOE damage.. a lot of aoe damage especially ith orders.

I haven't done PvE Tombs in a while, but when I did do it, it was with a build I vaguely remember

2 Boon prots (MoR/Edrain/OoB)
2 Stance warriors with mantra of flame
2 Barrage Rangers
1 Orders Necro
1 SS Necro (can be switched out for a third Ranger)

The two Warriors basically body block at choke points and take advantage of the behavior of the mobs there, leaving a gap between them while keeping the sides blocked. Not too wide though. The AI seems to want to go around the Warriors, not between them.

When people went for bp over this, I had to laugh as it's so much less efficient.

If your team works well together, the entire run is 25-40 minutes long.

Why b/p works:

1) Everyone wants one thing and one thing only - end-boss greens
2) Time is crucial - see point 1

There's 3 types of damage in tombs:
- Heavy AoE elemental
- Mesmer spikes with moderate to high e-denial
- Very heavy melee damage

Rangers have highest natural armor against elemental.
Rangers are energy efficient, and can handle e-denial.
Rangers also have a very high variety of counters and shutdowns for melee.
In addition, barrage, combined with minions deals surprising ammounts of damage.

About eles. What will you do against e-denial and interrupts? Mantra of resolve? Yes, but in a spike of 3-8 interrupts, you'll be out of energy. I know, I played nuker in a balanced team.

Tanks. Do you really, really need them? Terrain is full of chokepoints, pulling is the key, most of mobs are ranged, grasps come only in groups of 3.

Interrupts: MS is very easy to interrupts - concussion shot the best choice for complete shutdown.

Defense: There's not much you can do against AoE, unless you interrupt them. You also can't prevent mesmer damage. You can completely block grasp's damage (throw dirt, whirling defense/other stances)

Minions are the ultimate tanks. They are disposable, they absorb lots of hexes, and they divert AoE spells, possibly even draw one or more meteor storms to themself.

Full nuking squad will inevitably suffer from renegade e-denial. Even with minions, you won't avoid it entirely. They also have no ability to tank stray mobs, or kill them if they get out of hand.

B/p works, and it works well for random groups. It works if players have max armor and max bows. They can go at 12 marksmanship, or with 14 death minions. It works with a non-pro monk. It works if 3/5 b/p leave, if orders leaves. Not only that, but original b/p has been proven over and over to work even if MM or monk leaves (had a few cases like that myself). B/p also works if you, at whatever point wipe and lose all minions, you can rebuild 5 of them instantly.

It isn't just about skills. The greatest feature of b/p is it's resiliance. As soon as you go to a different setup, you notice some problems you didn't even think exist.

And another very important factor here is: Everyone knows what b/p is. With nuking team, someone wouldn't bring ward against melee (how many "nukers" do you see bringing that), not to mention how cruicial positioning and kiting (when did you last time see an ele in a PUG kite) is. Some would come in with 12 fire, some would come in with 350 health.

This is perhaps the major reason why it works. Skills are the same for everyone, but b/p is PUG friendly, and the only thing it requires is someone to pull. Even if pulling isn't perfect, everything else will still work. And this is the key requirement for PUGs. It must be fool-proof and must not require team work.


I went back to tombs for kicks. I ran R/P GftE/Stand your ground barrager. With two of these, you would get perma +24 armor, every hit gets +54% chance for critical. Not verified, but both of those work on allies, so they should apply to minions as well.

Thanks for the detailed description Antheus. Lack of sleep does not help a half-formed idea. A lot of changes have taken place since the beginning of Tombs, and have frankly given the advantage to Rangers, of course with pets and minions to do the monumental task of absorbing hexes.

Let me point out one thing for each of the 3 points you made above:
Heavy aoe elemental-Interrupts can take care of that(one reason I suggested meteor shower), but aoe is aoe. It can be moved out of quite easily.

Moderate spike damage and e-denial can be dealt with through healing and hex removal, though this might require the char's to all carry hex removal(using eles as an example)

High melee damage can be prevented in the same fashion as for bp, employing an mm. If an ele build includes 5 eles, a trapper/interrupter to pull and control aggro, and an mm to provide a wall and control aggro, then I think the team will almost be as resilient as bp.

But as you said, the bp's popularity comes from being able to recover from when things don't go peachy keen: when aggro goes bad, the wrong hex gets removed, etc.
A ranger's jack of all trade skill abilities make him King of the Tombs, resilient and pug friendly. The hard part in dethroning him would be to make a pug friendly build with the fire power to take on the mobs.

Though slightly weaker than a well-coordinated build of a different flavor, bp has its strength in its simplicity. Everyone brings barrage, a pet and an interrupt. 2 people bring spirits. A res is standard in pve, so everyone brings one(preferably hard).

After I get some sleep, I will go to the Build forum and attempt to flesh out some of the ideas already put forth here. Simplicity will be the hard part. Nothing may come of this discussion, but it sure will be fun to try.

But that's just my two cents

I have only been in a b/p team once, but I think I know the concept. I have however done tombs a lot of times with different types of balanced teams. My guild normally have a "come as you like" approach. So we usually end up with diifferent builds each time.

Some recurring favorites so far:
Minion bombing - Virulence Necro
My favorite when playing necro there, minions is part defense, part damage (putrid explosion). Most monsters there is easily afffected by conditions, so Virulence works nicely.

Ineptitude mesmer, Ineptitude is great against grasps.

Combat trapper. Ranger that traps a mainly during fights. Using Oath shot, throw dirt, whirling defense and some sneaking around to be able to trap. A funnier way to play trapper, with less time spent on preparations before the fight.

Those builds are not directly aimed for speed farming, so they might not be a good choice here. I think our record time is around 2 hours.

Since Factions and Nightfall proffesions is not affected by the side effects of the chaos fingers it is probably possible to come up with new viable team builds. I bet Paragons and Dervishs have potential here.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Six Searing Flames Eles!!!!

Yes, its great against single grasps. Not the kind of thing you want to devote a character to in tombs.

I personally find b/p both rather gimmicky.
Currently there is only one reason it's so popular and it seems because it's for farming. Farming is built around speed and b/p groups have it.

B/P groups have complete redundancy built into it. With 5 b/p rangers you could lose 2 rangers, or one of the necros or even the monk and still have a fair chance at it in tombs. It's a completely mindless and skillless role to play. After b/p overran tombs uw, I tried it several times to see what it was like and why people seemed to be so enamored with it (also because you just couldn't find any other type of group there anymore).

Monk - I played as a monk many times. I did this with minimal attention, while watching tv. I was completely, and utterly bored. Pretty much all you do is spam heal party, and the occasional spike heal or prot for the rangers. A necro constantly br's you (usually the orders). You don't need to worry about energy, you don't even need to worry about being in aggro range when healing w/ heal party. All b/p groups need is one monk, therefore less time spamming for a monk, and even the worse monk can spam heal party. So basically, spam heal party, pick up greens 60 min later.

Orders Necro - I tried this no more than 5 times. Ugh, I hate it. This requires even less attention than monking. You dno't have to be in range. Just stay back and spam orders every 3-5 seconds. You could let your attention laspe and it doesn't really matter that much. BR the monk as necessary. Maybe the only hard part is to make sure you don't sac yourself to death.

MM Necro - no more exciting or boring that playing your standard minion factory. Just keep spamming and keep those minions coming! Follow along, raise corpses. Energy is hardly ever a problem, as minions and enemies are constantly dying. Low risk of interrupts. Minions basically provide 3 roles - tanking ability, range/melee damage, and what a protection monk would have done (eg. aegis, etc).
I actually enjoy playing mm, and i did it many times for b/p in tombs but would rather not.

B/P ranger - I tried this a few times to see what it was like. Very simple. Put up spirits. Mash barrage over and over again. Rez pet as necessary. Throw dirt if in trouble. Really hard to miss interrupting terrorwebs when 5 rangers spam distracting shot on one enemy.

So yeah, I've tried every role and I find b/p groups extremely boring and avoid them like the plague these days. But maybe that's because I find farming boring as well.

For a while after tombs first came out, I used to organize 5 person tombs pugs. The reason was for some challenge and to increase the drop chances of everyone's ultimate goal - instant riches from Victo's bulwark.

It's been a long time since then, but I think my party makeup would consist of:
me - heal/prot monk
2nd monk
mm necro
ss necro
warrior/tank

if I got some half decent players we could clear tombs in just under 90 min or so. Sometimes I'd go echo SS and get a prot and heal monk. I think a few times I've tried replacing the 2nd monk w/ an echo nuker.

In any case, I was always more interested in the challenge, as were my 5 person pugs, than in just speed farming greens.

yeah TOPK is win.

My MM shines there (and I dont use the lame n/mo combo-- its all about death baby) and pretty much outfitted all my heros for me. Margrid is hawt with storm bow.

I am looking forward to trying my Heros there... Ill be happy when I can beat it with a 4 man team (ive done 5 man with pugs) I need to level my Heros on my Necro...

Anyone try using 2 (holy dmg) dervs, a paragon buff-master, a monk, MM, and a Mesmer?

Let's say that a group of 8 clears the tombs in 45 minutes. And let's say a group of 5 clears tombs in 90 minutes.

So, drop probability per time is:
Group of 8: 3/8 / 45 = 1/120 (one drop every 120 minutes)
group of 5: 3/5 / 90 = 1/150 (one drop every 150 minutes)

In other words, a group of 5 will only benefit from increased chance of drops if it can still kill fast enough. Otherwise, the increased killing time actually reduces your total farming profit. A 5 person group would need to clear in under 72 minutes just to break even with 8 person group.

This is why for farming speed matters more than small groups. This is also why the apparent benefit from certain 2/3/4/5 person farming groups is only virtual, and it would be better to run with full 8 henchies/heroes.

I could see a Searing Flames build working well there. Like b/p the damage would be high enough that it would kill the majority of the enemies quickly before they get to you.

6 eles with SF, glowing gaze and fire attune to help with energy, aura of restoration to help with healing, and glyph of concentration to prevent interupts. They could put in a few points into earth for wards. Secondary would be monk or rit for a hard rez. Rit would probably be best because a monk secondary would cause your fire attune to get stripped much too often.

1 BiP necro to help with energy when needed plus blood wells. Maybe N/Mo with heal party to help out with some healing. maybe bring bone minions at 0 death for some quick extra energy for himself.

1 healer monk to keep everyone alive.

And that is why virtually no groups exist no except for b/p
But this was before the existence of b/p groups and most groups of 8 would not only take 2 to 2+ hours, but invariably fail at the last stage. Sad but true.

Also my 5 person pugs were not there to farm repeatedly (a la SF groups), but only to give it one run. And if you're only going for one run despite how long it takse, you have a better chance than in a group of 8. Unless things have changed, I believe tombs drops were 6 total, 2 from each boss?

To Silver Star and Antheus, I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that a b/p is not the way to go in Tombs, everyone knows that to date it's the fastest way to 'get your greens' in there. But one of the main reasons why I prefer to go to Tombs in a balanced build even though I have a healing monk, a barrage ranger, and a necro that can do all the duties of a b/p group necro in there and do them well, is that a b/p to me is enormously boring, spamming Barrage after Barrage or Animate xx or Order this and that for up to an hour with little challenge from the baddies is just mind-numbing to me, and I prefer not to be bored when playing my favorite game. If you're a heavy advocate of the b/p build, hey, more power to you, it's just not the way I choose to play the game, as I like a bit of challenge.

With the new skill introduced since the b/p was popularized, there is in the very least the possibility that an alternate build to take on Tombs could be formulated that would allow additional content for those players that would like to take on Tombs but are not particularly interested in playing it as a b/p. While the b/p is a strikingly easy group to assemble as none of it's components requires a degree in rocket science, it's been shown in other missions like Urgoz Warren or The Deep that a slightly more complex party makeup can be assembled out of the pug pool and succeed, and there's nothing wrong with coming up with an alternate build for a given area, especially a place like Tombs where the year old build is really well past due for creating an alternate.

Not to pick on you Antheus, but you bring some very good points up and I felt as if I should address them to you, being as I play in balanced groups in Tombs quite a bit.

Not everything gets interrupted, which is why I stopped taking an anti interrupt skill entirely, that and I don't bring any long casting spells which are very prone to interruption in there, so it's not that big of an issue for any Ele that isn't insistent on bringing something like meteor shower.

No, you really don't, but I do usually take them as there aren't a whole lot of non-b/p players hanging out in Tombs, and they can be some half decent fillers sometimes. Biggest problems tanks have is while they can mitigate most of the physical damage done to them, they can do little against the E-Surge/Mind Wrack damage they will take if set up for the block role, and that will kill them if the monk isn't right on top of it.

Very easy to get out of. With my Earth build I showed earlier in this thread I usually take on the task of aggroing the Dryders first to draw the spell, allowing any tanks to run up to the Dryders unfettered by it on the first level, and for our nukers to nuke w/out worries from it on the second.

On an individual level for the Pyromancer, you're right, there's not much at all you can do to mitigate the grasp's dmg. I'm thankful to Tombs for that because up to here I saw no need for anything other than Fire, whereas now I've become somewhat the connoisseur of ele skills and have every one of them (well, except double dragon >.<). But the Pyromancer in Tombs would be in need of support from some source, be it Wards, Paragon shouts, Rit spirits or a combination or these to help him survive, the other Elements are able to employ skills in their lineup to help insure their survival on their own, however. On minions, you're right, they are the ultimate tanks. As I stated before however, the only problem is that the 'cadence' of a MM's pace in a nuker group are at odds. A MM only needs a little time if any to get his 10 minions up after a fight is over and wants to get to the next mob immediately, where an Ele must recover. I prefer damage Elites in the Ele lineup over Energy Storage ones for Tombs, so this is especially true for me. This is why in my balanced groups I prefer not to have a MM, that and the fact that they usually just leave anyway preferring the speedier b/p group.

Yeah, there's definately some e-denial to contend with, but I wouldn't describe it as 'renegade'. 'Fear Me!'s probably take maybe 5-6 energy each, but if you're within the effective range of 4 grasps spamming that then you're no longer terribly worried about your dwindling energy pool, and the E-Surge edenial only affects one person at a time, and again if you're taking an E-Surge spike it's not the energy that's the concern at the moment. In any class if you find a bunch of purple stuff flying at you,...it's time to find another place to stand.

Well that's true for a Pyromancer, and especially the traditional one with Meteor Shower/Rodgort's on his skill bar, but with the fast casting Searing Flames build he stands a better chance. As Aero you can bring a good kite, Water you can kite, ward, or armor buff, and Earth obviously can tank as I do.

What I'm getting out of this is pretty much, "If it's not broke, don't fix it", and I've always adhered to that saying, but to some, like me, the b/p is broke in the fact that it's simply not entertaining. So I'm willing to lend my resources to finding an alternative build for Tombs that is entertaining and pug-friendly.

'Stand your ground!' sounds interesting! I'll have to look more closely into some of the new Paragon and Dervish skill to see if there's anything they can lend into an alternate Tombs build.

GG's!!

Well i think just putting together a balanced group and having some fun would be a nice alternative. There is the joys of hanging out with people and having a go just for the hell of it. If you could cut out the necessity of people needed having to be able to finish things in the fastest possible manner it would be sooo much better and give everyone a go.

I have been in just about every "This build for that area" mentality at some time or another and found that doing those areas repetively over and over with the same build at some point just drove me away from the area all together with boredom.

Teamplay, fun and humurous commentary FTW... (And some leet heroes if yr short)

I've tossed up a possible build(skills and all) in the Farming section. Ele's got first run up, Mesmers will make an appearance once you guys finish tearing the first build apart.

Any more reasons for why a gimmick build is a gimmick build?

Okay gonna think outside the box.

PYRAMID!!!

How about a triangular prism? Or Ether Prism???

I think a team comprised of mostly paragons could be interesting. In fact I have lots of ideas about builds that could work for all the classes. The problem is PvE players are very set in their ways. To many people if it isn't in the cookie cutter, it's a waste of time. Ritualists and assassins still aren't understood, and I can't help but wonder how many people don't actually know what that paragon in their group is doing. It's slow to gain an accepted role in PvE.

PvP doesn't have this problem. PvP is a competitive environment. It is natural for people to try new ideas. Because you are competing against each other, builds are made to counter a specific popular build (some are harder to counter than others ). But it goes on like this, always changing. Always trying to be better.

In contrast, let's say I had an idea for a FoW build using only necros. Necros are quite common, but if I say "new build, need 6 necros", you get very few willing to join you. Why would they when they can just join a cookie cutter PUG as a MM or SS? There is nothing in it for them. PvE doesn't change (except nerfs), so players don't change.

Already I can see cookie cutters for some NF missions being formed. In many cases, it appears that what is written on GuildWiki is what everyone does. And rightly so, because what is written there is generally what has been found to be the most efficient way of doing something.

If you want some creative freedom join a guild that allows you to test build ideas, and find like-minded people. All people need to start using your build is to see that it's more effective than what they'd normally do. Post your build on forums, with pictures/videos of the success. And make sure it does something that can't already be done without less effort. As I said before, people need a reason to use your build. If your build allows a group to complete tombs in about the same time as B/P, there is no point. B/P groups are very easy to make, and everybody knows how to use them.

Which is exactly why I started this thread, to attempt to gather ideas about what would be just as efficient as bp. I understand that mass marketing of a good idea is required to make people see that the idea is good, but that's not what I'm here to do. In fact, your response is very similar to the one I made to the person in tombs that wanted to make a non-standard nuking group: if its not as good as what's here already, people won't want to use it.

The only other reason for this thread is that if someone does not have a ranger/necro/monk and does not wish to start one, ideas that could be generated here might give some options to go through tombs. One of the strengths of bp that is difficult to match is the ease with which the elites involved can be captured. Barrage is in Iron Mines(which can be mostly run), and WOH is in the desert. A build using a less easily acquired skill will not be as popular.
Thank you for your comments.