I had this build for awhile, and i used it for Random Arenas purposes and it was better than any Thumper build out there so far, yet doesn't use a pet:P(pets are bad at changing targets anyhow)
R/W
12Hammer
10+1+3 Expertise
8Tactics
Skills-
Devastating Hammer {E}
On Your Knees
Crushing Blow
Irresistable Blow
Crude Swing
Lightning Reflexes
Heal Signet
Rez Signet
Suggest armor insignia -Stance+10armor
Hammer
15% Stance
20/20 sundering
+30 hp
Devastating Hammer combined with On Your Knees refreshes Lighting Reflexes constantly, giving u 33% atk speed and 75% evasion almost all the time.
Crushing Blow is a follow up of Devastating Hammer, to inflict a deep wound and to add extra dmg.
Irresistable Blow is used for dealing extra dmg to pressure ur target and is used contiously.
Crude Swing adds extra dmg and is not easily interuptable...... because ur under lightning reflexes, allowing the atk to swing faster as well as attacks against u being evaded 75% of the time.
Heal Signet is just used if u cant do anything atm, like being hexed with ineptitude or blinded for a duration of time.
Rez-self-explanatory...
-Tips-
Use a wand to build adreline if you need adreline or if u want to prepare for a combo attack.
Use Crude Swing against several targets adjacent to u or to attack a runner when the runner stops to use a skill, followed by irresistable blow.
Use crushing blow mainly on knockdowned foes for deep wound.
Use Devastating Hammer as ur interupt skill, and be sure to keep lightning reflexes on all the time by using devastating+on your knees.
Always use crude swing if u can before irresistable.
Never use heal signet unless u are out of battle range or u have lightning reflexes on.
Defensive Thumper that can damage as good as a normal thumper, and can heal
Mr Pvper
LightningHell
No (reliable) IAS, Crude Swing is easily interruptable, no speed buff.
Thanks, but I rather play with a normal Thumper.
Thanks, but I rather play with a normal Thumper.
Cathode_Reborn
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/W_Lightning_Hammer
A similar build has been there for a while. This definitely does not do more damage than a RaO thumper. This build requires alot more skills to work. I tried it before, and it's kinda risky.....if you don't manage to get your adren up for Devastating hammer and use "On your knees!" to recharge Lightning reflexes, then you're open to attacks and attacking at the speed of a lazy man
RaO is an IAS and Speed boost in one. There's no way to chase kiters using this build since if you use a stance, you'll cancel Reflexes, and it's got a nice long recharge time. It's obviously better for 1v1'ing a war or sin, who arn't likely to run from you. Casters really have nothin to fear against this build. If I saw someone using this build, I'd wait for em to use lightning reflexes, then simply kite em untill it ends 
On another note, why 20/20?
Go to the Isle of the namless outside Balth's temple, use Wild blow to test that 20/20 on the wooden targets......you might be surprised it's pretty damn weak and not worth it. You're better off usin vamp if you want damage, but I still prefer furious, especially in a build like this.
A similar build has been there for a while. This definitely does not do more damage than a RaO thumper. This build requires alot more skills to work. I tried it before, and it's kinda risky.....if you don't manage to get your adren up for Devastating hammer and use "On your knees!" to recharge Lightning reflexes, then you're open to attacks and attacking at the speed of a lazy man
RaO is an IAS and Speed boost in one. There's no way to chase kiters using this build since if you use a stance, you'll cancel Reflexes, and it's got a nice long recharge time. It's obviously better for 1v1'ing a war or sin, who arn't likely to run from you. Casters really have nothin to fear against this build. If I saw someone using this build, I'd wait for em to use lightning reflexes, then simply kite em untill it ends On another note, why 20/20?
Go to the Isle of the namless outside Balth's temple, use Wild blow to test that 20/20 on the wooden targets......you might be surprised it's pretty damn weak and not worth it. You're better off usin vamp if you want damage, but I still prefer furious, especially in a build like this.
XvArchonvX
While this build gives some defense it loses the most essentail parts of what makes a thumper effective. As Lightning pointed out, no (reliable) IAS and no speedboost ftl. 
LagunaCid
And no pet. Yes, pets do deal nice damage.
Silk Weaver
I've used it before it's great fun.
But yeah, lack of reliable IAS is an issue. Actually, I don't know if it's much of an issue. Look at it like this, when teamed with other warriors/thumpers as thumpers usually are anyway, On Your Knees! will get lots of easy triggers. You can keep it up almost indefinetly.
Still restrictions are still there, so whatever.
But yeah, lack of reliable IAS is an issue. Actually, I don't know if it's much of an issue. Look at it like this, when teamed with other warriors/thumpers as thumpers usually are anyway, On Your Knees! will get lots of easy triggers. You can keep it up almost indefinetly.
Still restrictions are still there, so whatever.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
I've used it before it's great fun.
But yeah, lack of reliable IAS is an issue. Actually, I don't know if it's much of an issue. Look at it like this, when teamed with other warriors/thumpers as thumpers usually are anyway, On Your Knees! will get lots of easy triggers. You can keep it up almost indefinetly.
Still restrictions are still there, so whatever. You don't run (well, did anyway) Paragons because they're great fun. You run them because if you don't you drastically decrease your win chance.
But yeah, lack of reliable IAS is an issue. Actually, I don't know if it's much of an issue. Look at it like this, when teamed with other warriors/thumpers as thumpers usually are anyway, On Your Knees! will get lots of easy triggers. You can keep it up almost indefinetly.
Still restrictions are still there, so whatever. You don't run (well, did anyway) Paragons because they're great fun. You run them because if you don't you drastically decrease your win chance.
Silk Weaver
Strange, I play GW because it's fun, and I play cripshots because it's fun too. ^^
LightningHell
You generally don't try to gimp yourself severely while at it.
Thom Bangalter
a defensive thumper means that it just sucks compared to a regular thumper apparently. Thumpers are about beating the crap out of things. They don't care about healing themselves, that's the monk's job.
I suppose it works in RA because you have no way to reliably get a monk, but just play the game like you would regardless, instead of trying to get that precious glad point by running a gimped bar.
I suppose it works in RA because you have no way to reliably get a monk, but just play the game like you would regardless, instead of trying to get that precious glad point by running a gimped bar.
Dutch Masterr
the thumper is a great damage dealer...the only problem is that they have absolutley no healing at all!....this one at least has some (minimal) healing and a good speed buff+blocking...the RaO build uses only hammer mastery, expertise and beast mastery. unless your relying 100% on a monk to heal you, you die too easy. what happens if you get hit with conditions and degen? i havent tried it yet, but im going to make a heal as one build and see how that works.....the thumper build i currently use is---irrisistable blow, crushing blow, hammer bash, escape, whirling defense, lighting reflexes, troll unguent. and occasionally swap one out for apply poison.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr
the thumper is a great damage dealer...the only problem is that they have absolutley no healing at all!....this one at least has some (minimal) healing and a good speed buff+blocking...the RaO build uses only hammer mastery, expertise and beast mastery. unless your relying 100% on a monk to heal you, you die too easy. what happens if you get hit with conditions and degen? i havent tried it yet, but im going to make a heal as one build and see how that works.....the thumper build i currently use is---irrisistable blow, crushing blow, hammer bash, escape, whirling defense, lighting reflexes, troll unguent. and occasionally swap one out for apply poison.
Who in serious gameplay doesn't rely on a monk to heal them?
Silk Weaver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
a defensive thumper means that it just sucks compared to a regular thumper apparently. Thumpers are about beating the crap out of things. They don't care about healing themselves, that's the monk's job.
It doesn't actually work in RA. It has no dependable healing. What. Troll Unguent? You kidding me?
What it does have though, is a supposedly constant IAS with Devstating Hammer, which is a decent elite. With Irresistable Blow, and assuming your monks aren't total idiots, On Your Knees = almost indefinet IAS. So.... it's not really that bad is it? RaO owns it, yeah, but this isn't bad. It's not actually "overly defensive and no output". Honestly, even if, due perhaps to blind and busy monks, you miss devastating hammer, you could just build up again and you'll be able to use on your knees, not to mention On Your Knees! could actually trigger off your other thumper. Guardians/Aegis in case people still use it can be fixed with irresistable blow, of course.
Only real issue would be ward of stability and ward against melee, which owns "normal" thumpers already anyway, so what's the fuss?\
It's inferior in terms of output, but not really by as much as you say. It (lightning reflex + On Your Knees) has advantages over Tiger's Fury (old school thumper) simply due to 33% IAS.
Unless you're suggesting that your whole team managed to not kd something every 12 or so seconds (gale, shock, thumper, hammer warrior) to refesh reflexes, this is a R/W Hammer Ranger with IAS and 12 hammer mastery capable if spamming Irre Blow and Bull's Strike, etc just like any other thumper.
Obviously I'd actually use it if it was better than what's been done, but I don't think you should critisize the concept as horrible, as surely it is not. In fact, it's close enough, it's just that the restrictions make the already less versatile thumper even less so, so I prefer RaOs more. Otherwise...
What it does have though, is a supposedly constant IAS with Devstating Hammer, which is a decent elite. With Irresistable Blow, and assuming your monks aren't total idiots, On Your Knees = almost indefinet IAS. So.... it's not really that bad is it? RaO owns it, yeah, but this isn't bad. It's not actually "overly defensive and no output". Honestly, even if, due perhaps to blind and busy monks, you miss devastating hammer, you could just build up again and you'll be able to use on your knees, not to mention On Your Knees! could actually trigger off your other thumper. Guardians/Aegis in case people still use it can be fixed with irresistable blow, of course.
Only real issue would be ward of stability and ward against melee, which owns "normal" thumpers already anyway, so what's the fuss?\
It's inferior in terms of output, but not really by as much as you say. It (lightning reflex + On Your Knees) has advantages over Tiger's Fury (old school thumper) simply due to 33% IAS.
Unless you're suggesting that your whole team managed to not kd something every 12 or so seconds (gale, shock, thumper, hammer warrior) to refesh reflexes, this is a R/W Hammer Ranger with IAS and 12 hammer mastery capable if spamming Irre Blow and Bull's Strike, etc just like any other thumper.
Obviously I'd actually use it if it was better than what's been done, but I don't think you should critisize the concept as horrible, as surely it is not. In fact, it's close enough, it's just that the restrictions make the already less versatile thumper even less so, so I prefer RaOs more. Otherwise...
XvArchonvX
I think the greatest problem with the concept is that they whole reason Thumpers are around in the first place is because they are all out total damage dealers. If you want to hit something with a hammer and still have defense, then you might as well just use a warrior.
Silk Weaver
Yes, well what I'm essentially saying is that the combination of Lightning Reflexes and On Your Knees! means constant 33% IAS as long as an enemy is knocked down once every 11 seconds which, in a team game, isn't very rare. Even if there are sudden lapses for some reason (aforementioned wards), the downtime of IAS probably won't be much less than frenzy's in the longe run.
As for output... what? It has the same attacks as a normal thumper.
Irresistable Blow, Crushing Blow, Hammer Bash/Devastating Hammer, Protector's Strike, Bull's Strike, Distracting Blow, etc... it, in fact, has more slots of attack skills since this build doesn't use pet. And although pets do deal damage, you must admit that that's only part of the reason. The other half of the reason is that they provide IAS (TF/RaO). With this reason gone, it makes more sense to have more Hammer Attacks which, due to expertise, is what makes the R/W Thumper usable compared to a warrior to start with.
To sum up what I'm saying, using, the combination of Reflexes and On Your Knees gives you, quite reliably (seriously, not a single knock down in 11-15 seconds??):
Constant 33% IAS
7 Slots for Attack Skills spamming
Elite Attack
14 expertise, 12 Hammer
How does this "suck" compared to the other thumpers? Let's have a chart of those...
Near Constant 25% IAS
Pet
4 Attack Slots
Elite Attack
9 Expertise
12 Hammer
11 Beast Mastery
RaO
Constant 33 IAS
Constant 25% Speed Boost
4 Attack Slots
''
As you can see, RaO probably owns both of them, but this concept, when compared to the old thumper, isn't really all that bad. It has a more consistant and more effective IAS, more slots, more expertise to spam these attacks (energy does become an issue sometime), and no pet to bother about. Maybe it's me, but I think that 8% IAS is more than enough to make up for the loss of a pet who will almost definetly get itself killed... well depends I guess. But as you can see, it's not really "all defense" at all.
And that comparison looks only at output. While thumpers aren't prime targets, what this does mean is that this person can overextend, knockdown, deal a deepwound, then return relatively unscathed. How's that a bad thing?
As for output... what? It has the same attacks as a normal thumper.
Irresistable Blow, Crushing Blow, Hammer Bash/Devastating Hammer, Protector's Strike, Bull's Strike, Distracting Blow, etc... it, in fact, has more slots of attack skills since this build doesn't use pet. And although pets do deal damage, you must admit that that's only part of the reason. The other half of the reason is that they provide IAS (TF/RaO). With this reason gone, it makes more sense to have more Hammer Attacks which, due to expertise, is what makes the R/W Thumper usable compared to a warrior to start with.
To sum up what I'm saying, using, the combination of Reflexes and On Your Knees gives you, quite reliably (seriously, not a single knock down in 11-15 seconds??):
Constant 33% IAS
7 Slots for Attack Skills spamming
Elite Attack
14 expertise, 12 Hammer
How does this "suck" compared to the other thumpers? Let's have a chart of those...
Near Constant 25% IAS
Pet
4 Attack Slots
Elite Attack
9 Expertise
12 Hammer
11 Beast Mastery
RaO
Constant 33 IAS
Constant 25% Speed Boost
4 Attack Slots
''
As you can see, RaO probably owns both of them, but this concept, when compared to the old thumper, isn't really all that bad. It has a more consistant and more effective IAS, more slots, more expertise to spam these attacks (energy does become an issue sometime), and no pet to bother about. Maybe it's me, but I think that 8% IAS is more than enough to make up for the loss of a pet who will almost definetly get itself killed... well depends I guess. But as you can see, it's not really "all defense" at all.
And that comparison looks only at output. While thumpers aren't prime targets, what this does mean is that this person can overextend, knockdown, deal a deepwound, then return relatively unscathed. How's that a bad thing?
XvArchonvX
I think you are still missing the point of why thumpers don't bring self heals. If you substitute something in for a heal, you take away from the damage potential. When you take out the pet, you deal a big blow to the damage potential of the build.
LightningHell
Something that "isn't really all that bad" against something that is "good" is "bad".
Dr Strangelove
I guess it's worthwhile in RA, I'm not really sure how much that says though.
Silk Weaver
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Something that "isn't really all that bad" against something that is "good" is "bad".
Actually, it would seem that it's better than the old thumpers, that is to say, after TF nerf, before Nightfall.
I think the gap is close enough that it's usable. Does skill and tactic matter more, or build? I think it has been agreed that build matters a great deal in the higher ranks and with gimmick builds/spikes, which would have to deal with luck, but in terms of output, I don't see this as nessesarily lesser. Afterall, pre-NF thumpers did not have speed boosts or self heal but was still popular...
The output sacrificed for 75% evasion (overextend/splits?) is so little (You're losing a pet, 25% speed, but gaining more attack slots) that you may be giving the concept less credit than it deserves. From the looks of it, it can be viable in a heavy melee/KD build-- if RaO is nerfed.
Irresistable Blow
Bull's Strike
To The Limit!
Crushing Blow
Devastating Hammer
"On Your Knees!"
Lightning Reflexes
Rez Signet
Compared to a thumper, you're really just switching TF for Reflexes, and losing a pet (2 slots) and gaining 1 more attack (1 slot).
I think the gap is close enough that it's usable. Does skill and tactic matter more, or build? I think it has been agreed that build matters a great deal in the higher ranks and with gimmick builds/spikes, which would have to deal with luck, but in terms of output, I don't see this as nessesarily lesser. Afterall, pre-NF thumpers did not have speed boosts or self heal but was still popular...
The output sacrificed for 75% evasion (overextend/splits?) is so little (You're losing a pet, 25% speed, but gaining more attack slots) that you may be giving the concept less credit than it deserves. From the looks of it, it can be viable in a heavy melee/KD build-- if RaO is nerfed.
Irresistable Blow
Bull's Strike
To The Limit!
Crushing Blow
Devastating Hammer
"On Your Knees!"
Lightning Reflexes
Rez Signet
Compared to a thumper, you're really just switching TF for Reflexes, and losing a pet (2 slots) and gaining 1 more attack (1 slot).
Dutch Masterr
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Who in serious gameplay doesn't rely on a monk to heal them?
errr, all players should have some of their own healing skills, or have a very coordinated team....i dont know about you, but i wont be caught on any character in any situation without SOME self healing
Sir Mad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
...after TF nerf...
Truely, for me the change of TF was a boost, not a nerf. Cough... Enraged Lounge... cough... But yeah, it depends on your gameplay 
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr
errr, all players should have some of their own healing skills, or have a very coordinated team....i dont know about you, but i wont be caught on any character in any situation without SOME self healing
Damage reduction > healing for any non-monk/non-support heal class. That being said, a Thumper is a build meant for a coordinated team. This is why I really tend not to run a thumper when in a normal pug. With hench and heroes, however, it is easy to get your group more well adapted to increase efficiency with the build.
Silk Weaver
In GvG, you'd want a healsig for splits, but in HA? No. Healsig on a war is usually a waste, it also means that an SF/Sand Storm hurts... quite a bit more than it should.
Heck HA is stupid simply because you can't frenzy reliably with all these AoEs around. But I digress...
Ps:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Mad
Heck HA is stupid simply because you can't frenzy reliably with all these AoEs around. But I digress...
Ps:
Quote:
Truely, for me the change of TF was a boost, not a nerf. Cough... Enraged Lounge... cough... But yeah, it depends on your gameplay
I've used Enraged Lunge ever since I evoled my dire pet, really. Never liked thumpers that much.
I've used Enraged Lunge ever since I evoled my dire pet, really. Never liked thumpers that much.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr
errr, all players should have some of their own healing skills, or have a very coordinated team....i dont know about you, but i wont be caught on any character in any situation without SOME self healing
Some characters that are designed to do their jobs by themselves and such have self-heals, but other characters may drop the selfheal entirely to function better. For example, my flagstand Emo doesn't use Heal Party to selfheal, she relies on the monk.
And well, who in serious gameplay (i.e. gameplay that allows the use of thumpers, which is usually seen in coordinated play, like GvG) doesn't have a "very coordinated team"?
The R/W Thumper puts more pressure on the opponent than the usual Warrior in the absence of defense in the form of Healing Signet and extra armor. Making it "defensive" makes it somewhat subpar.
And well, who in serious gameplay (i.e. gameplay that allows the use of thumpers, which is usually seen in coordinated play, like GvG) doesn't have a "very coordinated team"?
The R/W Thumper puts more pressure on the opponent than the usual Warrior in the absence of defense in the form of Healing Signet and extra armor. Making it "defensive" makes it somewhat subpar.