Remove hero requirements already!

Crom makes some good points.

I personally have no problems with the setup the way it is right now. Yes people want to run with other people. I run with guildies and that is it. I have had way too many horrible PUGs to deal with them anymore. I went through NF with my Tyrian born Ranger first. I leveled the heroes up then went forward.

Even if you did not want to level them up it was not too big of an issue for me. Most mission I was able to do with a group of 7 just fine.

One advantage I did have over some others is I already had the Elites and a large number of skills unlocked. The ones for the Paragon I used Balthazar faction to unlock the ones I wanted for the builds I wanted Morghan to use.

Outfitting my heroes were really simple also. All I had to do was jump back to Tyria/Cantha and get the collector weapons. Then just salvage mods off weapons I found in NF to complete the weapons. For the runes I really do not see the issue. The heroes do not need the runes to be effective. Almost all my heroes have no runes on them other than ones I found while playing.

Plus for me the heroes did an outstanding job throughout the entire game. I even capped all the Elites using pretty much nothing except heroes and henches. I even capped all the ones in the Realm of Torment using nothing but heroes and henchies and had very little problems doing so. I did much better using hero/hench exploring the ROT than with a PUG.

I can agree that it is frustrating to have to use a hero that you do not want to use. I agree that it is a bit much to have a non-NF character come over then be forced to use a lvl6 Dunkoro. Though has been stated they are part of the story line. I for one would rather be able to control them than have them as an NPC that would make the mission fail if they died. I mean how many times have you had a mission fail because of an unexpected Leeroy move from the non-controllable NPC?

So for me a good alternative would be to make the heroes be level 20 right off the bat for every toon that comes over from a different chapter. As for the argument about Dunkoro having the same HP as a lvl20 when doing the Consulate Docks mission. Yes indeed he does but he also has the AL of a lvl6 hero thus the added HP does not amount to much. He also only has the attribute points of a lvl6 hero. Thus the added HP really does not make up for the area that you are bringing him into.

o.O you shouldn't have any low level heroes....

it takes 15 minutes and 2 scrolls to get them several levels. that's 600g. if you;re good enough and fast enough. one scroll.

i thnk heroes get xp from quests as well so add the lowest ones when collecting rewards.

got a low level koss or melonni? give them a bow and apply poison while you level them.

/signed

I'm not wasting Balthazaar Faction (or even time doing PvP when i don't want to) on skills i intend to capture on my Ranger (ie, elites) or ones that i can buy. Balthazaar Faction is reserved solely for Mesmer, Necromancer and Monk skills been as they're all on my other account.

Having to level hero isn't even the whole problem... The fact i have to take the frigging hero in the first place is. I'll level Koss up in my own time via quest rewards if i want. He has no place in my build. Thats where the problem is. If i wanted to use the frigging hero i would have him in my party already.

Low level heros can be amusing anyway... watching Koss run upto the Master of Magic boss in Consulate Docks and dieing in 2 hits, getting ressed then running up and headbutting him

Learn2Adapt imo.

Possibly. I've only done it once, doing it for someone else who had chosen Margrid and I wasn't the party leader, so if she was required they took care of it and I just didn't pay attention.

I think you're right though, since it's Dzagonur's counterpart, it'd make sense that Margrid is required.

Reading all the complaints about having to take a specific profession hero on a mission reminds me of all the leet snobs forming pugs that only want certain professions .... the 'ideal build' for the mission. Maybe this is A-net's way of forcing us to work with certain professions, whether or not we want to?

I brought my Tyrian ranger over to Elona, before I even thought about making a new character. I had no problems leveling the heroes up or completing missions. There were times that I didn't like the choice forced upon me, but the missions aren't all that difficult.

Bottom line is that A-net is trying to please as many people as possible. Not everyone is going to like the way things are done, and if enough people voice negative opinions things will change, if not now then in future chapters. And always remember ..... it's just a game.

I like the story as it is. Forcing a here to be with you increase the link you have to that hero, as you have you raise him.

/notsigned

I dont see a problem with leveling up hero's If you want the sunspear and lightbringer titles you have to harvest the required points. It is simple enough to take a low level hero with you while doing this farming and kill 2 birds with 1 stone

My objection to the mandatory heroes has only been touched on in passing so far, but it's this:

It's part of Nightfall's continued, malicious war on the pickup group.

It adds controversy to the group formation process - and there's already plenty of that, thanks! It takes up a slot that could be filled by a human... By a human of a specific profession, mind you. It creates a rift between Elonians and foreigners. And the presence of any hero at all brings up the political tension in-mission whereby you have to trust the hero's controller to set flags and AI levels sensibly (and occasionally manually use skills).

...

The thing is, the hero system is overintegrated into the game. Heroes are inherently a compromise - just like henchies are - to how the game should play in an ideal scenario. However, henchies/heroes are necessary to compensate for the fact that you can't conjure agreeable human players to go with you every time you leave an outpost.

The problem is that the hero system went from ugly (but necessary) gap-filler to marketing bullet point. Since the focus for Nightfall was on squeezing as much novelty from the Guild Wars engine as possible, the writers were obviously driven to weave them into the story everywhere they could. Hey, Nightfall's about heroes, right? That's the differentiating factor from the other two chapters! This left us with a bunch of negative effects on the gameplay that trickled down from the original poor decision, but couldn't really be mitigated.

I've said it before - Factions had some incriedible design plusses marred by flaws in its execution. Unmanned by the complaints, ANet worked their butts off on the execution for Nightfall, but started from a scatterbrained pile of compromises as their core design.

The difference between Windows 2000 and Windows ME, if you like.

Incidentally, Attack at the Kodash Bazaar, the primary quest that requires two heroes, is such a poor design choice that someone ought to be fired over it. I'm not kidding! If someone is blind to how thorougly this destroys the group play experience, how it breaks the flow of the game, and the logistical annoyances it forces on a party (read: diminution of fun!), they shouldn't be making games for a living. Go write non-interactive novels if all you care about is presentation over gameplay.

Again, not kidding. This is public-apology-and-promise-not-to-do-it-again level blundering.

Uh ok, about all the complaining about "I dont want to spend the time leveling up heroes I'm never going to use."

Here's something you may have missed. In quests that dont require a hero, use the heroes you want, level them up through fighting. Then before you accept the quest reward, switch to 3 you hardly use. When you get the EXP from the Quest, they get an exact copy of that same ammount of EXP as if they had done the quest.

I watched Koss level up many times doing that.

/not signed

I think the reason they did it this way was so they wouldnt have those stupid missions where "NPC X" must not die or you fail the mission.

Thats one key points I keep trying to make, but it seems most people in here would be happy having NPCs which we cant control instead of ONE required Hero in your team.

It makes me question whether most of these have been playing GuildWars long to have never experienced how bad NPCs are in missions and quests.

[QUOTE=freekedoutfish]"So you dont know then......"

Your obviosly ignoring the bit you wrote yourself that said you need to check

Or, ZOMG they could just change it so you could res them, or make them party member 9, or or or or, there are other solutions. It can be improved, dont argue against it because you or others dont know how yet.


I know that, but the point is, its not enancing it in any way if thats what your doing.



Just for a mission, and not because i want to use X hero, thanks for missing the point

They are not hard to level, its just annoying having to level them, or basicly have them stand out the way because you HAVE to use X hero for X mission, i think that could be improved, you dont, ermmmmmm ok...


No, i just think there are better ways of doing it, heros auto leveling to your level, making them party member 9, whatever.


Just dont get it do you.

Its not about whether you can do it, ive beat it twice and both my koss and meloni are still under lvl 10-11, its about improving it.

and here we go again. (see below)

You think thats the ideal solution rahter THAN MAKING THEM USEFULL, without having to invest time into it?

And like others have said, maybe i have an 8th guildee who wants to join (which does seem to happen alot), oh wait no sorry i have to take a hero.

There bad excuses when you dont actually see the point of the argument.

The point is its workable, people know the workarounds, youve stated numerous workarounds, ive used them myself.

I know, lets make it so we dont have to work around it, but rather work WITH it.



Im sure you could push a cart with an oblong weel, dosnt mean you shouldnt try and make a round one.

I personally don't see much of a reason to complain with this. It can be inconvenient to level them, but I'd much rather do that than use PUGs.

Im sure when someone was trying to invent electricity your ancestor was saying candles do the job

I see your points. I know your frustration as I was helping my wife and a guildie go through Nundu Bay the other day and it was a pain. The problem was both of them were playing as Dervish. So nothing like doing that mission with 3 dervish in the group. We completed the mission with masters but felt it could have been done much quicker if the dervish hero was not a requirement.

I sort of love taking low level heros when using my necro. There is nothing like a constant supply of corpses to use. I just throw Glyph of Sacrifice and Res Chant on my Ele to get the hero back up then repeat.


Overall though I sort of like the way things are right now but to each his/her own.

Why thank you.

So your entire argument comes down to this;

You want them to make any required Hero in a mission or quest an NPC instead. Then have us babysit an NPC around most of the missions in nightfall?

"Or, ZOMG they could just change it so you could res them, or make them party member 9, or or or or, there are other solutions. It can be improved, dont argue against it because you or others dont know how yet."

NPCs in missions and quests are added to the party menu.

There are several ways in which Anet has chosen to use NPCs in GWs throughout all the games;

You have the NPC ghost in DOD which you can tell to follow or wait. He follows you, but he still attacks any creature he gets near. You have to heal him like a puppy.

You have the NPCs who you have no control over and you follow them. They walk right through every mob on screen without stopping, regardless of whether or not your being attacked. These ones tend to wonder off and get killed while your busy because they dont stop. You have to heal them.

You have the NPCs who you have no control over, who you follow and tend to agro everything on screen without giving you a chance. In high mob areas its a joke. You have to heal them.

You have NPCs who are considerate enough to walk ahead, but stop if you dont follow, or they stop infront of mobs, but still dont have the sense to walk back if they approach. You have to heal them again. But then you have to stand there waiting for when THEY choose to move on.

NPCs are useless and frustrating.



Plus you have the fact that if we're following them, we're set to move at what ever speed they do. And Anet can NEVER get that right.

They either move too fast and run into every mob on screen, agroing 2 at once. Or they move too slow and the missions takes 4 times longer then it needs to.

If it was a timed mission, you'd have no chance.



Then you have the major reason why you DONT use them. Henches and Heroes DONT heal NPCs.

If NF used NPCs in nearly every mission, you would have to find a human monk everytime, or set your secondary to monk just to keep them alive.



And they wont change it to allow us to res them. Like pets or anyone outside of your main part, you can't use res spells or signets on them.

This is probably in place to make sure you dont res monsters who's corpses lay around you.



NPCs are not an alternative to using Heroes. Heroes are 10 times better then that alternative.

Heroes we can heal, Heroes we can control, Heroes we can direct.

NPCs we can.......... DO NOTHING WITH. Their not going to change the way NPCs play out in missions, because hence the name "Non playable character".

I really cannot understand this want to replace character who you have CONTROL over, with mindless NPCs who just frustrate things.

Perhaps they could give more control to them, but in a very limited way as in DOD, with "I will stay here" and "I will follow.... now"! But that in itself is just frustrating to have to baby sit someone instead of having a useless tool instead.

BTW, if your Heroes were only lvl 10-11 when you finished the game, then thats your choice. Its no reflection on whether their good tools or not.

If you wont use them correctly, then ofcourse your going to hate them.

Try reading my post again then youll see how pointless and far of the mark your response was.


Instead of trying to rip apart others suggestions why not actually come up with some or read them properly first.

Seriiosly you just dont seem to be getting the point.

I get your point. You dont want to forced to have a hero in your team, so you can make your "perfect" party. You dont like having your party compromised by one little Hero who isnt doing any harm and if used properly is an asset.

I appreciate that you might want to use that ONE space for another human being, because obviously 7 other spaces arent enough.

But asking for the entire system to be turned on its head because your loosing one space in your team is unsrealistic.

Others, like myself, like the Heroes and like the way they work with the missions. Its just the way Nightfall works, and it doesnt do anyone any harm, as youve proven by the fact youve completed the game.

So I dont why its worth changing the entire mechanism when it works fine.

I went on and on and on about NPCs because they would be the only alternative. A bad one.

Other then that, it would require re-writing the entire missions structure.

I just dont see where the thread is going, because the request is unrealistic.

Im sure your reasons are fine and solid and based in fact. But completely changing the game in such a way wont be.

I don't call level 2 Koss that dies 6 times and has a resurrect signet used on him 6 times until none are left, then stays dead an asset.

In the missions that require a hero I just have to order the hero to wait at the start, and play with 7.

Not meaning this in a bad way, but you seem to have missed a point somewhere.

I said heroes are assets.... if you use lvl them up and use them properly.

You cant really say your Koss is lvl 2 and then complain that he isnt an asset.

I assume your in a high end area and you havent bothered to lvl him up and then suddenly decide to get him out to use and realise "oh wait... darn.... I didnt lvl him"!

Which is part of my point. If people wont lvl their heroes and turn them into assets, then you cant really make any comment about whether their usefull or not.

I lvld all mine up relatively fast and I found most to be assets. Especially the monks and warriors.

But again, its all down to the user and how they choose to play with them.

Im starting to repeat myself now, so im leaving this be.

I understand most peoples views about not wanting a hero force into your team. But you cant comment on them being useless if you dont train them up and actually make them usefull.

Thats my end of it. Ive said more then enough and no doubt im annoying people.

Enjoy.

your delibratly twisting what im saying and ignoring points.


Excuse me for wanting to play with my guild team. I cant be arsed to list the other points AGAIN.


And not what im asking for mr clueless.

Yes it works, im suggesting improvements which you havnt been able to come up with a valid counter for so have ignored.


I dont know either, but then i didnt ask for it :/


Even though i listed alternatives other than that, WTF.


Ok lets summerize


1. Its annoying having to level them

You say, well level them (we say we dont want to level them just for a mission and not use them again).
Or you say, flag them to stay out the way (I say, why not just make them usefull otherwise dosnt it seem abit silly to just have them stand out the way, dosnt really fit in with the story). Just because i can do ith with a level 4 koss, dosnt mean i dont want it changed. 1 suggestion previosly mentioned is auto leveling to your level, and that was just 1 suggestion before you try counter it.

2. Its annoying having to take them at all when you want 8 people (which happens with my guild a fair bit)

You say, that the alternative is to make them NPCS and go on about how useless they are (I say there are other methods, you ignore those suggestions and repeat how useless NPCS are). Also you just get sarcastic about it, sorry i want to play with my guildee over an NPC, its guild wars not AI wars. Anyway 1 suggestion is to make it party size of 9 (rather than tag them as an npc), yes its no big issue, but like i said i dont see the harm in improving it.

Well then respond to whats written and not what you read. basicly you cant come up with any counters so just repeat yourself, get sarcastic, and run away

well, here is a tip to leveling heroes for those who like leveling their heroes, and if someone has said it before then apologies cus i didnt see it:

there is this mission, consulate docks, where everyone gets +80 armor and max health, you can do that mission a couple of times to level them up, the less players/henchies you take the more experience they receive, if you do this just make sure you take a heavy damage dealer to deal with the bosses, because in this mission they will deal... well, they will only tickle the bosses.

for those who dont like leveling their heroes... well, really, though luck:
remember that line, wich is very true:
Prophecies: the ghost heroe, he had semi-useful skills, and could be left behind to keep it safe; he dies and the party loses.
Factions: we have npcs that lead us through most of the missions, they have a bigger repertoire (sp?) of skills, therefore a "bit" more useful than the ghosts, but the team still fails if they die.
Nightfall: the required "npc" is now a member of the party, therefore the only way to fail a mission is by a party wipe out, and the few missions where there is an npc to lead/follow, they are usually like untouchable, team bodyblockers (cough kormir cough).

i remember the threads asking to make togo/mhenlo members of the party screen so that party skills could affect them, including res. also some were asking for the removal of these npcs because they greatly affected the outcome of those missions, did ANet remove those npcs? no
will ANet remove the requirements of the heroes in certain missions/quests? most likely no.
will ANet stop using this method in the next chapter? most likely yes.

so asking ANet to remove the requirements for this chapter probably wont do nothing, as they are coded in and removing them could take more time than we can think of, but they probably are going to remove this (or at the very least think it twice) requirement on the next chapter.

/signed

For each character I have my 3 kitted-out heroes, and it is annoying to constantly swap them out.

I refuse to spend any effort or money on any but my core 3 heroes, so when I'm forced to I plug in the dead weight, treat it like a 7-man mission, and get through it. Not the end of the world, but annoying.

I don't care about wich Hero I must use.

Missions are not like DoA, as long as you have at least one tanker, one damage dealer, one interrupter and a couple of healers, the rest of the party doesn't really matter much.

I really can't see how one slot makes that huge an impact on any mission that the heros are required in.

Yes, I know you just dont like taking an AI over a live person, but thats part of this game. The whole concept of adding hero's would be pointless if they were never actually used. And while some do wish an option to use or not use if you never try youll never understand just how good Heros can be.

With the right skills and at the right lvl a hero can be just as effective or more so than a live player.
Don't belive me?
Try setting up a ranger hero with interupts, if you watch carefuly they can switch targets and interupt foes you never noticed were even casting.

If out of 7 live people not one of you has the required Hero lvled up and the right skills unlocked then its a good bet that adding an 8th person would make little diffence to the party.

If you don't like the primary proffesion of your Hero you can always equips skills from there secondary and they can play just about any build with some degree of sucess. I know because if tried. I had Koss using meteor shower!

You really can't expect them to undo a fundumental part of the game just because you don't wish to take the time to learn how to use your Heros!

Its not about effectivness, its about wanting to take an extra friend.


Thats not even being questioned, so why mention it, and again its not about effectivness its about wanting to use heros of your choice or taking a friend. The point is HAVING to invest time in CERTIAN heros you dont want to use because you want to use another hero that you have set up to be part of a build, that or use a lowbie and flag him to stand out the way.



Why are so many people missing the point!

Someone mentioned earlier, maybe it's ANet's way of getting you interested in professions you may not have been (and get you to purchase extra slots to accommodate, etc..... why not? they want to make money). Or, maybe at the very least, get you interested in or not intimidated by professions you are unfamiliar with, for future partying. (How many people decided to make a mesmer after seeing what Norgu can do? I have no way of knowing...)

BUT I can definitely see the problem when you wish to make a team of 8 real people, but have to leave one out because of a hero req.

How about make it so that all you need is one player with the required prof? If you or a guildie is a warrior, you don't need Koss, and so on.

In the meantime, whenever a hero I don't "like" is required, I make them do something useful, such as:

*When I brought my dervish through, when I used Melonni it was as a smiter with Shield of Judgment.

*When I went to fetch Olias, I grabbed Zenmai first, handed her the Factions preorder Spiritbinder and made her A/Me with massive interrupts, got Olias on the first try even with the Lion's Arch level 10 henches.

*I've also used monk and ele heroes as mesmers (I love mesmers!).

I do not recall having to expend any real energy leveling them all, but they all reached level 20 quickly, with no scrolls, no runes, no special weapons, no insignias. Finished the game (til Gate of Madness lol) just fine. Never noticed a difference, and I see no need to invest SO much money OR time into heroes.

Once again, I see the issues with requiring a hero's presence but in my case it never has bothered me too much.

Hey, that's fine.

The problem is for those of us who would prefer to use PuGs.

The power issue, as aron keeps pulling his hair out in his efforts to explain, is neither here nor there - it's about a game mechanic that does it's best to make party formation less convenient.

...And for the record, a properly hand-crafted hero team is more powerful than any PuG, no matter how organized. It's also more powerful than all but the most carefully cherry-picked guild groups (unless you're running a farming build in a known farming location). So yeah, not really the point.

I've read little bit the whole thread, and would like to drop a line about it.

1. Due to needed hero presence in some missions (and quests? don't remember) -> in my mind, it is up to make any logic into the game. Why? Some further adventures show us, that for example, You helped the cetaurs. Why? Because You've met Zhed and he had a problem. So due to free his brothers in chains, he is needed.

But generally, if I make mission, where a hero is needed, I play fairly simple. If the character is weak, I try to make one of the best builds for it (skills + skillpoints propagation). And then - if this character has got any chance to throw good skills (and gain more XP for the mission) - he goes further. Not to mention, that ALL THE TIME I GOT 3 HERO CONSOLES ON THE SCREEN, USING SKILLS INSTEAD OF THEM. This is a grant to success.

But if the hero is weak and sucks completly (like Melonni for me, or Zenmai) I use one of the greatest options for heroes - place a flag in a safe place. And the butthead hero waits at the start. Voila!

2. Gates and limitations. Well, I'm looking forward with a hopeless hassle, as maybe in the next few builds, the Tyria will gain gates. Why not? Why not to limit more and more?

I guess the developers are not good observators at all. Human race generally does not like limitations. Loves freedom. Also in the computer world of electronic games. The more freedom the game offers, the bigger crowd of fans it claims.

I really HATE any discussions about equalizing GW to other games on the market, with alike gameset and rules. I hate it. But only one word is worth to whisper: why does WoW gain milions of players? Think about limits and summarize the whole idea.

In my mind, the closed gates and conditional locations are mind-mistakes. Instead of explorable world-game, which is huge detailed and makes You feel to be a community member, it just kills the total feeling.

From my side and life experiences - the more limitation, the more dissatisfaction from the persons...

Well, I got given a level 2 Koss when I was level 20 and all the enemies were level 16-24. I didn't use him for THIS reason. It's not a case of me being negligent and deciding not to use him, it's a case of him being level 2 and me and the henchmen and the enemies being level 20. In that situation, given the choice between level 2 Koss and level 20 Devona, I choose Devona. Until of course I get to one of the damn missions or quests that forces me to take him. And that is the situation where he is just a burden that has to be left at the start or left dead, because in no way can he help.

I could take the time to level him up, but I did that on the first 2 characters that entered NF. This is my 3rd character entering NF, and I am sick of needy heroes.

We are not missing the point.

People have listed 3 problems here.

1: You would like to have a team of 8 live people and not 7 + 1Hero.
2: You do not wish to be forced to use a Hero you dont like
3: You do not wish to be forced to take time to lvl up your Heros


Answers

1: If you are saying that youve always got 8 people that are on at the same time and always wish to do the same missions and quests at the same time, thats something to be really proud of. While there is never going to be a way around having Heros in the missions I would suggest you split into two teams and make some new friends.

2: This is Anets way of introducing people to proffesions they dont normaly use, just set there secondary to one you know if you cant manage there primary.

3: Yes having a lvl 2 Koss next to my lvl 20 war is a problem. However Heros lvl up increadibly fast. If you simply choose not to lvl them because you dont want to use them then youve no one to blame but yourself when they are a requirement for Nightfall.

Most of the people complaining about the lvl of the heros are bringing a Tyrian or Canthan char to Elona with the intention of rushing through all the missions to get to the end. If you take some time to do the quests on the island before you go to the mainland youll find heros are at a much higher lvl and can be of use in the required missions. You also have the option of taking them to Tyria or Cantha and running them through a few quick and easy missions there to lvl them up long before you need to use them in any mission.

What it all boils down to is time. If you take your time and work with your Heros they will benifit you in the long run. If your in too much of a hurry youll pay the price when its time to use them.

Freeked, what the hell are you talking about?

Only 2 NPC's i can remember has thing problem. 1 is that f*cking retarded Dervish hero for the Floodplains mission (forgot its name). Who the first time i played it leeroyed into a group of Kournans before i saw her even moving and died. The other is the even more retarded Forgotten Keeper guy in the quest in the Realm of Torment who just moves slowly forwards regardless of how many enemies are in the way.

As for the other NPCs im thinking of. We have Palawa Joko who never gets attack or damaged from any enemy and stops when your not near enough. And Kormir (You know, the 1 i've been mentioning they should be changed to) who just follows around doing practically nothing, never causing agro.

Sorry but are you taking stupid lessons? So far i haven't found a single use for Melonni AT ALL. I'm not a big fan of the Dervish as it is anyway. If as a guild/alliance we have people online who not only need the mission but are willing to help on it i'd rather not have to struggle through the mission because instead of bringing an 8th player who is willing to help with a useful char we get lumped with the useless bint that is Melonni. As half the people in this thread have said, Pugs are the most useless methods of getting through some missions ever, why would we split up and form what is essentially 2 pugs when we decided to do it as a guild?

Introducing people to professions they don't normally use? Sorry but not everyone who plays is a wammo who refuses to believe a Mesmer can do something. Speaking of which, where is the Norgu req mission exactly? Don't have 1... Yeah they're definatly trying to introduce people to new professions. A great way to do that would be forcing them to use under leveled, under equipped heros because they don't want to use them. Lets create as much prejudice as we can.

Heros don't level up incredibly fast if they are DEAD. Which surprisingly happens quite alot to low level heros in high level areas. And if you didn't notice the entire point of this thread is to NOT make them a req for Nightfall. Not only is it spoiling team play its spoiling solo play too.

This is true. Heroes die like flies - pretty quick after any futher movement.
What Crom had written is also partly true - if You spend some time on the 'noob island', the heroes lvl themselves up and You get a junkyard team on the continent.
But there is only one leak. What if I play Tyria character, who does not have any opportunity to struggle around in missions or so on the 'noob island'? I didn't test it by myself, maybe there is some sort of the way. But as I know ArenaNet, there is definitely more limitations and definitely less quests to make. Of course, if there is any way to get into the island by a normal way from the beginning (not for example after summoning Sunspear Sanctuary).

So, what is left for now, is to place a flag for Koss, cheer him "Run, Kross, run!!!" and get benefits from watching Forrest Gump actions combined with range attacks & res from Your side...

There are quests and two missions on the newb island for you to lvl up your new heros. You also have the option of taking them back to your primary campain and lvling them there with the appropriate lvl missions.

They are a part of this game and are not going to be removed, we are not missing your argument, we just are trying to help you find a solution that works for you.

If you think that Dervishs arnt usefull then youve just never taken the time to read over there skills and fully explore them. They can out tank a war, have better self healing than a monk and can deal huge amounts of damage to both groups and individuals.

If you truely hate using Heros then my only advise would be to stay out of Nightfall.

They will not be removed because they should not be removed.

Nuff said!

Dasha Vestibule - Magrid The sly

My main complaint is aligned with the OP's Heros kinda ruined NF in the sense that it exacerbated the "hench-the-whole-game" syndrome.

GW is no longer a multiplayer anymore. You could quite easily run it offline. Then you wouldn't have any crappy err7s etc etc.

Even PvP has the term 'Heroways' now....

When I first read about heros these were my fears, and the fears have come true. The fact that, most people will either Guild it through or Hench it through. There isn't even an attempt at making parties anymore. Again, forcing a hero onto a slot means that if you had a party of 8 people running through the game, you would have to kick one out at certain time.

Lose.

I think you're missing the point. While I can understand that you're confused about this, since the previous chapters the party size have been 8.

Party size for missions in Nightfall is 7 + one spot for an NPC that in previous chapters would be listed as an ally.
The smaller partysize is the pay-off for having that NPC being ressurectable, and affected by partywide skills. Not to mention, you get to choose who's version of this particular NPC your party brings and how it is equipped. Plus it is an NPC you can control.
The smaller party size is the pay off not have to babysit a leeroy jenkinsing prince Rurik and the if he gets himself killed the mission fails.

It's really the same situation as if in your guild/alliance there were 9 people that wanted to join up and do a mission in proph or factions. You have one more than the max party limit, so unfortunably one can not come this time around.

It might not be fair on that 9'th player. But there is a limit to party sizes for a reason.