Ok sry if this is in the wrong place, I didn't know where to put it. And I'm sry if I skipped another post with this stuff, I was in a rush
Anyway I was wondering how builds actually get nerfed because I've been running pvp arenas for about a month now with a build I made on a rainy day (no you can't have it) and I've been pwning with it (only 6 deaths ^_^) and yesterday when I kicked some tank's ass he started spamming it would be nerfed. So I was wondering how exactly it would be nerfed. I've spent a month killing with it. I mean thats at least 400 ppl dead because of me. I think only a few of them would be what it takes to get a build nerfed...right?
(and if you haven't guessed by now, I know what nerfing means. I just don't know the process.)
Nerfing
Eroth
Cow Tale
i think its the individual skills that get nerfed and that makes the build not as effective. and i think a whole lotta people would have to be using your build (or a very similar one) and actually be causing a large difference in the community as a whole to get nerfed. i may be wrong.
Xasew
ANet probably couldn't care less for something that's only overpowered in Arenas. Unless it's like pre-nerf spirit spam -overpowered and everybody runs it.
Process of nerfing:
-Play and watch to see what is being played the most.
-See if there is any clear overpoweredness around.
-Check out what the community thinks too.
-Nerf some skills to make the overpowered stuff not so overpowered anymore.
-Everybody happy joyjoy!
At least in theory...
Process of nerfing:
-Play and watch to see what is being played the most.
-See if there is any clear overpoweredness around.
-Check out what the community thinks too.
-Nerf some skills to make the overpowered stuff not so overpowered anymore.
-Everybody happy joyjoy!
At least in theory...
Thomas.knbk
I'm going to quote a very famous guild wars player
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe
Quote:
Randoms aren't pvp
Who cares if something owns in RA? I play there quite often with my monk, and I think I could get somewhere near 6/400 myself. I don't mean to boost my ego, but the level of play in randoms is shockingly low (is shockingly a word?), and anyone who knows how to actually play the game can own there. Sure, it might be because your build is good, but I doubt it's overpowered enough to deserve a nerf. There's over 2 million GW-players (I think, don't quote me on it) and the chance you're the only one to think of such a strong build is very strong. This is btw also the reason why keeping your build secret is teh lame. I think your build is probably strong (at least in RA settings), but not overpowered. Chances are you're just good at the game. Now how does that feel.
Eroth
Well technically it is pvp because ppl are fighting eachother, not the AI of monsters.
And I guess ur right about it. It has failed 5 times (the 6th was due to a monk using a couple enchant on me w/ soul barbs. Hence not my fault)
and it's not that over powered I guess. And I keep it secret b/c it's something I have over ppl. Everyone has thier secret builds don't they? He has this solo farming build, she has this gvg build, these azns have a modified <insert build name>. Just something I can call my own. It may sound wierd but it's mine.
And I guess ur right about it. It has failed 5 times (the 6th was due to a monk using a couple enchant on me w/ soul barbs. Hence not my fault)
and it's not that over powered I guess. And I keep it secret b/c it's something I have over ppl. Everyone has thier secret builds don't they? He has this solo farming build, she has this gvg build, these azns have a modified <insert build name>. Just something I can call my own. It may sound wierd but it's mine.
Calen The Civl
I am rather against nerfing in most situations. It seems rather a lazy way to add "balance" to the game compared to producing counter skills or letting the players sort out a tactic. It just seems most nerfs are a result of players whining instead of getting creative. There are times when nerfs are needed, such as when a skill is poorly conceived. However, nerfing skills just serves to overpower other skills over time. Nerfs tend to cascade and unbalance the game further through them.
Balance could be better achieved through adding counter skills or even changing the environment of the arena. Environmental "nerfs" placed on the arenas would be interesting. For example, maps that disable all shouts or all spells would shake up tactics. Especially if such maps are fairly distributed and followed with "normal" maps.
Another example: after a period of time of holding Halls (using the pre-nerf ritual lord as the victim) an environmental condition that would degen the spirits would kick in for a bout or 2 before returning to normal. Then another condition would kick in for a few bouts. It would make holding Halls that much more challenging without nerfing.
Balance could be better achieved through adding counter skills or even changing the environment of the arena. Environmental "nerfs" placed on the arenas would be interesting. For example, maps that disable all shouts or all spells would shake up tactics. Especially if such maps are fairly distributed and followed with "normal" maps.
Another example: after a period of time of holding Halls (using the pre-nerf ritual lord as the victim) an environmental condition that would degen the spirits would kick in for a bout or 2 before returning to normal. Then another condition would kick in for a few bouts. It would make holding Halls that much more challenging without nerfing.
Thomas.knbk
I would actually classify that as a nerf to spirit spamming. Also, I think modifying the skills is to be preferred to adding dozens of environmental effects to dozens of maps.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eroth
Ok sry if this is in the wrong place, I didn't know where to put it. And I'm sry if I skipped another post with this stuff, I was in a rush
Anyway I was wondering how builds actually get nerfed because I've been running pvp arenas for about a month now with a build I made on a rainy day (no you can't have it) and I've been pwning with it (only 6 deaths ^_^) and yesterday when I kicked some tank's ass he started spamming it would be nerfed. So I was wondering how exactly it would be nerfed. I've spent a month killing with it. I mean thats at least 400 ppl dead because of me. I think only a few of them would be what it takes to get a build nerfed...right?
(and if you haven't guessed by now, I know what nerfing means. I just don't know the process.) Wow....sorry for seeming like a zomg rager, but 1) Just because you and 3 other people have killed over 400 people doesn't mean your build is Godly, and I doubt anyone on guru would like to know your RA pwning build.
Anyway I was wondering how builds actually get nerfed because I've been running pvp arenas for about a month now with a build I made on a rainy day (no you can't have it) and I've been pwning with it (only 6 deaths ^_^) and yesterday when I kicked some tank's ass he started spamming it would be nerfed. So I was wondering how exactly it would be nerfed. I've spent a month killing with it. I mean thats at least 400 ppl dead because of me. I think only a few of them would be what it takes to get a build nerfed...right?
(and if you haven't guessed by now, I know what nerfing means. I just don't know the process.) Wow....sorry for seeming like a zomg rager, but 1) Just because you and 3 other people have killed over 400 people doesn't mean your build is Godly, and I doubt anyone on guru would like to know your RA pwning build.
Thomas.knbk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Wow....sorry for seeming like a zomg rager, but 1) Just because you and 3 other people have killed over 400 people doesn't mean your build is Godly, and I doubt anyone on guru would like to know your RA pwning build.
I do have to admit, claiming it's overpowered and needs to be nerfed has made me curious
Lambentviper
its probably just the Me/N virulence spike
or even funnier, if it was an SF ele.
And by saying its not your fault that a monk had to cast enchants on you to keep you alive (because you were obviously dyeing) makes it your fault. Definitly not the monks fault for trying to save your almost dead body
or even funnier, if it was an SF ele.
And by saying its not your fault that a monk had to cast enchants on you to keep you alive (because you were obviously dyeing) makes it your fault. Definitly not the monks fault for trying to save your almost dead body
Eroth
No it's not the VSpiker or a Searing Flamer. I don't do cookie cutter builds unless I'm in builders block.
and I guess ur right.
edit: ok I got my answer. Can someone close this or something along the lines of that?
and I guess ur right.
edit: ok I got my answer. Can someone close this or something along the lines of that?
Kwisatz_Haderach
I think we have overlooked some impotent aspects of the balancing or "nerfing" of builds/skills.
I have yet to see a person in this thread mention that in addition to nerfing overpowered or just cheap builds/skills, Anet also will "Buff" underrated skills to encourage usage of these overlooked skills. (Holy Veil)
Also, I have seen at times anet to buff certain skills(pbaoe) and aspects of the game to encourage entropy and ingunity(?) on the part of the players and metagame to keep 1 certian build or sets of build to dominate the metagame. (pre-factions metagam)
While this may have little to do with your worry over whether just because you have owned a few hundred ra pvpers your build may get nerfed, it should keep you glued to the skill updates screen on guildwiki looking for that unanticipated uber build just waiting to be exploited.
p.s.: yes I do keep a sack of special uber builds for fun pownage in ra.
I have yet to see a person in this thread mention that in addition to nerfing overpowered or just cheap builds/skills, Anet also will "Buff" underrated skills to encourage usage of these overlooked skills. (Holy Veil)
Also, I have seen at times anet to buff certain skills(pbaoe) and aspects of the game to encourage entropy and ingunity(?) on the part of the players and metagame to keep 1 certian build or sets of build to dominate the metagame. (pre-factions metagam)
While this may have little to do with your worry over whether just because you have owned a few hundred ra pvpers your build may get nerfed, it should keep you glued to the skill updates screen on guildwiki looking for that unanticipated uber build just waiting to be exploited.
p.s.: yes I do keep a sack of special uber builds for fun pownage in ra.
crucifix
Skill "Nerfing" really only comes about when the metagame changes because of a certain profession or skill/ skill synergy (eventually it all boils down to one or two skills). A perfect example is IWAY. IWAY was nerfed because Anet did not like the way that their own metagame was manipulated. IWAY teams were severe pressure and almost everyone ran them. Paragon nerfs are another prime example. Arena net decided that they didn't want a specific build being able to hold halls invincibly/ give monks endless energy in other pvp aspects running amuck in their game. it usualy takes a community wide change for anet to notice anything, judging by whats been coming out of gaile's proverbial mouth, they have no understanding of PR/ customer relations. Maybe they just like to play god, who knows their whole motive for nerfing.
Etrik
A while after a build becomes [one of] the flavor of the month[s] it gets nerfed because it's obviously overpowered.
Point being, people should learn to make builds that are un-nerfable. Yes, there are such builds.
Point being, people should learn to make builds that are un-nerfable. Yes, there are such builds.
Xasew
No there aren't. An overpowered build will always get nerfed in a way or another. Unless the build is only slightly overpowered or ANet becomes retarded.
People said that IWAY was un-nerfable because there wasn't just 1 skill making it good, but the combination of many skills. Guess what? It got nerfed too, because then they just nerfed many things(OoV, IWAY, Eviscerate, Warriors losing adrenaline when they die etc...).
People said that IWAY was un-nerfable because there wasn't just 1 skill making it good, but the combination of many skills. Guess what? It got nerfed too, because then they just nerfed many things(OoV, IWAY, Eviscerate, Warriors losing adrenaline when they die etc...).
Thomas.knbk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xasew
No there aren't. An overpowered build will always get nerfed in a way or another. Unless the build is only slightly overpowered or ANet becomes retarded.
People said that IWAY was un-nerfable because there wasn't just 1 skill making it good, but the combination of many skills. Guess what? It got nerfed too, because then they just nerfed many things(OoV, IWAY, Eviscerate, Warriors losing adrenaline when they die etc...). And limiting IAS to 33%, and TF, and Mantra of Resolve, and adding DP to pets (though this was done after iway was already dead)
tbh, Anet nerfed some things that wouldn't have to be nerfed if it wasn't for iway (=the build, not the skill), but they really have shown they won't hesitate to do so in order to maintain balance.
There's no such thing as an un-nerfable build.
People said that IWAY was un-nerfable because there wasn't just 1 skill making it good, but the combination of many skills. Guess what? It got nerfed too, because then they just nerfed many things(OoV, IWAY, Eviscerate, Warriors losing adrenaline when they die etc...). And limiting IAS to 33%, and TF, and Mantra of Resolve, and adding DP to pets (though this was done after iway was already dead)
tbh, Anet nerfed some things that wouldn't have to be nerfed if it wasn't for iway (=the build, not the skill), but they really have shown they won't hesitate to do so in order to maintain balance.
There's no such thing as an un-nerfable build.
Etrik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xasew
No there aren't. An overpowered build will always get nerfed in a way or another. Unless the build is only slightly overpowered or ANet becomes retarded.
O RLY? Chew on this for a while and tell me exactly how it can get nerfed. Are they gonna nerf PS? Lawl, you make me laugh.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etrik
Also, they can nerf this. Put EB and BS in the DF line and change it to 0..1.
Etrik
Why would Balthazar's Spirit be DF? Balth = Smiting. Think > Post. As for EB in DF, sure, why not, it won't happen tho.
And it is overpowered. Anything that can solo an entire area [Hidden City of Ahdashim, to name just one area] is overpowered. What, you think they nerfed Spirit Bond because it was being abused in PvP? Get a clue. And this game is not made to cater only to PvPers. Grow up, man.
And it is overpowered. Anything that can solo an entire area [Hidden City of Ahdashim, to name just one area] is overpowered. What, you think they nerfed Spirit Bond because it was being abused in PvP? Get a clue. And this game is not made to cater only to PvPers. Grow up, man.
Sven788
Almost whole RA is noob it isn't that hard to win there.
Morgenstern
If its only you who's using it what right do they have of nerfing it? Its obviously a good build, good on you. I think ANet only nerf when so many people use it that easy fame or faction farming becomes possible. I would say your fine. GL
Arcador
I think some of the Nerfs are actually nerfs - Ether Renewal, Energizing Finale, etc - that reduce the effect of the skill like 3 times. I agree they needed a tunning down, but not into oblivion. Althou still usefull in some builds most guilds may never use them anymore. Other problem about the nerfing and the buffing is that there are good skills (at least on theory) but people won't take them untill they see someone use them in the meta stadium. Even someone may put them in a build, they will probably won't be encouraged since they will need 2-3+ games to get used with the strange build and the team will probably get frustated with the outcome and return to the gimmicks. But if some top guild succesfully uses such non top notch high end master uber skill - it will immediatelly see action from almost all others.
Lambentviper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
so was the 55 and SB monk farm....it got nerfed. So was solo FoW/UW with 55 Necro...it got nerfed.
Thomas.knbk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etrik
Quote: Originally Posted by Etrik
And this game is not made to cater only to PvPers. Grow up, man.
No, but still PvP balance is more important than PvE balance. You see, PvE is designed to let you win, so a minor unbalance is nothing to cry about. Your group of 8 is so much stronger than the monsters that with or without the unbalance, you'd still be able to beat them.
PvP is a whole different story. It's designed around all skills being equally strong. If a skill is unbalanced there you've got a much bigger problem, so PvP balance>PvE balance
PvP is a whole different story. It's designed around all skills being equally strong. If a skill is unbalanced there you've got a much bigger problem, so PvP balance>PvE balance
Symbol
When cries about "PvE balance" stop being synonymous with "I couldn't care less until you nerf a skill I happen to be (ab)using" then A.net can take "PvE balance" seriously.
Zui
Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
When cries about "PvE balance" stop being synonymous with "I couldn't care less until you nerf a skill I happen to be (ab)using" then A.net can take "PvE balance" seriously.
But everyone should realise that PvErs don't care about PvE balance. The just want to pwn baddies faster and easier, and feel like they're contributing to somthing monumental while doing so, oh, and they want FoW armor too. They're already playing a gametype where the odds are stacked heavily in their favor. You can't have a game that's equal and rigged at the same time. You can't have balanced PvE for the same reason, because PvE by it's nature, is stacked in favor of Players.
Arkantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambentviper
Quote: Why would Balthazar's Spirit be DF? Balth = Smiting. Think > Post. As for EB in DF, sure, why not, it won't happen tho. As Thomas said, effect>name. And how do you know EB won't get changed to DF? Are you in ANet? no.
Quote: And it is overpowered. Anything that can solo an entire area [Hidden City of Ahdashim, to name just one area] is overpowered. Wammo hasn't been called overpowered, and it can solo alot also.
Quote:
I betcha a normal Wammo farming build can't solo The Hidden City of Ahdashim. |
What, you think they nerfed Spirit Bond because it was being abused in PvP?
Quote me where I said that. Quote:
How do you know it will get changed to DF? Are you in ANet? No.
Quote: |
Quote:
Quote me where I said that.
You didn't. But you said that skills aren't balanced for PvE. Spirit Bond is a prime example.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arkantos
It caters PvP way more then PvE.
About 65% PvP/35% PvE imho. True.
How do you know it will get changed to DF? Are you in ANet? No.
Quote:
Sorry for forgetting a /. People make mistakes.
Quote: |
I never said it would get changed into DF, I said it's a possibility. You, on the other hand, said you're positive it wouldn't.
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You didn't. But you said that skills aren't balanced for PvE. Spirit Bond is a prime example.
Spirit Bond is one of the very very very few skills that were changed due to PvE. Quote:
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