Reasons why DOA is so hard and why time will solve it

That's no guarantee. A bad player with a favourite character is still bad.

I had a PUG yesterday with a few hero's in it. The group leader had dunkoro setup with heals and elementalist damage skills, and tahlkora with a few prots and MINIONS

It was at moddock crevice and i was a full monk so no problem in the end .. but do this in DOA and .............. A bad player is a bad player regardless of class.

it should be about teamwork. not FORCING teams to have sf/ms ele's or mantra of frost and winter. you should still be able to play what you want. killers kill, healers heal, protters prot etc. Skill >cookie cutter builds. See I disagree here. I think areas SHOULD force you to think about your team makeup before you enter them.

I see nothing at all wrong about having to think about what skills everyone is bringing before going into the mission, nor do I see a problem when certain strageties call for certain skills to pull off. This area hasn't been open long, and people are coming up with all sorts of ways to get through it. Like Avarre has been pointing out, the actual group composition isn't important, rather the forethought and idividual player skill is forefront. It's always been that way. They only reason people look for the 'Trinity' of builds, is because it secures the best chance that inexperienced players have of getting through an area. The ability to 'play what you want' comes with the price tag of much forethought and planning.

I completely agree with SnipiousMax. The thing that makes mantra of frost so great is that ANY class can get it, as its a core skill. Just plop up a mesmer secondary and you're in. Basically, You just need one ranger and have everyone change to mesmer secondary. You still have 7 other characters to do whatever you want with.

Every class is useful here. This is the general breakup of what I think is a pretty good and balanced team:

The Tanks(1-2): Generally one, but I've heard people going with two tanks with sucess too.
Warrior: The standard tank, I think City is the only place where he kind of just has to stand there, since every attack will kill his energy. In the other places, he's free to whack things too.
Dervish: I haven't actually seen a Dervish take the role yet, but I've heard of groups who have. Correctly setup, they should function as well as a warrior, if not better in some areas.
Assassin: This is still experimental, but having 2 assasins with Shadowform, and arcane mimicry would give you an invincible pair of tankers that do not need any monk support, be HIGHLY mobile, and still be able to dish out damage/knockdown/conditions (again, not in City). This could also work with one assassin and another class sacrificing their elite slot for Shadow form. I'm going to try this when my other guildmate gets to DoA.

Support/Damage Mitigation (3-4):
Monks: Generally you should run one protector(to lifebond +prot spirit the tank) and one healer to help deal with spikes and damage in general.
Paragon: Great overall support character. "They're on fire" is absolutely great with SF elementalists. Signet of Return is absolutely essential when your res sigs don't refresh until the end (after you kill the boss). Angelic Bond makes your prot monk's job much easier.
Ranger: Generally the one who brings the Winter + Greater Conflag, can ditch mesmer secondary for rit secondary and bring further defenses, or can spec in offense in stead.
Ritualist: Not too sure on these, since Shelter and Union fall way too quickly. I have heard of other people using them with success though.
Necro: The only defensive role I can think of for a Necro is Biping your casters and monks, which is extremely helpful, perhaps wells too, although their use is limited.
Elementalist: I've heard people having success using wards to mitigate damage, not something I've seen personally though.

Damage/Disruption(3-4):
Elementalist: Standard SF/MS setup works well. SF is pretty much the best damage a elementalist can dish out. It's not the player's fault that A-net pretty much made SF one of the only choices if you want to do decent damage. Snares(water elemenalists) are extremely useful in the Stygian Veil.
Mesmer: Spiritual Pain + Mistrust are an excellent source of armor penetrating damage, addional skill slots can be focused on caster hate (generally the casters are the ones you have to worry about the most, especially the monks).
Rangers: Trapping is good here for overall damage and snaring. Choking Gas is excellent at disrupting casters and preventing a lot of damage by preventing them from casting those spells in the first place.
Necro: Most of the mobs are going to be highly packed, so SS would work wonders. Disease would be handy to have around too.


I mean, this in my opinion is extremely balanced. Every class plays a role, and a lot of classes can be subbed out for other classes. The only class I think that is ABSOLUTELY needed is probably a monk, but that's generally true for most teams. You're exactly right on all points here.

One note on the assassin tank idea: as someone who plays an assassin extensively (among my other characters), I think this *could* be pulled off, but would be VERY difficult, since once it expires your tank is now left with ~50-60hp. With good group timing, though, it could work brilliantly--if the assassin attracts most/all of the aggro, this will give your elementalists time to get meteor showers going, or better yet rangers get choking gas up. If there is voice communication involved, the assassin can tell the group when shadow form is about to expire, allowing the monks time to begin on those big heals, maybe have a Paragon throw "Incoming!" up, etc.

However, you're going to need a guild/alliance group to try this because I really can't see pick-up groups willing to take the chance.

You're exactly right on all points here.

One note on the assassin tank idea: as someone who plays an assassin extensively (among my other characters), I think this *could* be pulled off, but would be VERY difficult, since once it expires your tank is now left with ~50-60hp. With good group timing, though, it could work brilliantly--if the assassin attracts most/all of the aggro, this will give your elementalists time to get meteor showers going, or better yet rangers get choking gas up. If there is voice communication involved, the assassin can tell the group when shadow form is about to expire, allowing the monks time to begin on those big heals, maybe have a Paragon throw "Incoming!" up, etc.

However, you're going to need a guild/alliance group to try this because I really can't see pick-up groups willing to take the chance. From what I've tested with my guildmate, as long as there was another Assassin primary or secondary with a Shadow Form he can arcane mimcry off of, he can keep up Shadow Form indefinitely with Deadly Paradox to half its recharge. The only problem would be AoE damage from Dervishes, but as long as I keep him lifebonded and protted when there's a dervish, that shouldn't be a problem. Another great thing is that, this only takes up 3 skill slots(shadow form, deadly paradox, arcane mimicry) and only uses one line (shadow arts). This gives the assassin incredibly freedom with his other 5 skill slots. He can probably even throw in dagger mastery + critical strikes and go help assassinate the casters while he has all the aggro on him.

From what I've tested with my guildmate, as long as there was another Assassin primary or secondary with a Shadow Form he can arcane mimcry off of, he can keep up Shadow Form indefinitely with Deadly Paradox to half its recharge. The only problem would be AoE damage from Dervishes, but as long as I keep him lifebonded and protted when there's a dervish, that shouldn't be a problem. Another great thing is that, this only takes up 3 skill slots(shadow form, deadly paradox, arcane mimicry) and only uses one line (shadow arts). This gives the assassin incredibly freedom with his other 5 skill slots. He can probably even throw in dagger mastery + critical strikes and go help assassinate the casters while he has all the aggro on him. Hmm... and that would fit perfectly into my build (crit/dagger/shadow build with 5 attacks, 3 shadow arts skills).

That's a freaking great idea there, I hadn't though about Deadly Paradox. Now I just need to get my Assassin through Nightfall.

Edit: of course, with deadly paradox up most of the time it'll be a little hard to use attack skills, so it'll probably be a good idea to stick some Shadow Arts hexes in there instead.

It is not called an elite mission for nothing. The 4 zones in DoA IS NOT the elite mission. Its a pre requisite to get into the elite mission.

Mallyx has 4 great servants known as the overlords.

Ill guess we know for sure once someone has beaten all 4 zones.

Edit: of course, with deadly paradox up most of the time it'll be a little hard to use attack skills, so it'll probably be a good idea to stick some Shadow Arts hexes in there instead. Ah good point, >.< I don't play an assassin =/

Hmm, maybe take ranger secondary then? Grab apply poison and sharpening daggers, and just auto attack and spread nasty degen on everyone^^ Hey, its armor ignoring!

Ah good point, >.< I don't play an assassin =/

Hmm, maybe take ranger secondary then? Grab apply poison and sharpening daggers, and just auto attack and spread nasty degen on everyone^^ Hey, its armor ignoring! But with a ranger secondary you don't have arcane echo.

I'll look into it this evening when I'm home from work and see what I can work out though. Might be an interesting build.

But with a ranger secondary you don't have arcane echo.

I'll look into it this evening when I'm home from work and see what I can work out though. Might be an interesting build. Oh yeah, totally forgot...

Well, you can still bleed them! ^^

Backfire the monks XD

Edit: I just remembered, Channeling is probably extremely important here, as your monks cannot balthazar's spirit you to give you energy, as the mobs are not actually "hitting" you. One problem my guildmate had was that at the end, he was sort of short on mana, so we were going to test it again with channeling to help with the energy (theoretically it should give him tons of energy, maybe even enough to start throwing around heavy mesmer hexes^^)

The ability to 'play what you want' comes with the price tag of much forethought and planning.

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Yeah, I see what your saying... but again ... is there just no such thing as pick up groups anymore??? like in tomb of primeval kings?? where you cannot come if you dont have a certain prof. with a certain cookie cutter build??

once a build that works is found people will not allow for creative thinking! and we will have another "BP group lf BPs" on our hands... rendering the entire domain unattainable for those who dont like playin bps (or whatever build it is)

thats my only concern... im not saying that any specific prof. is unuseable... its just my concern.. That's not really the game to blame, rather the player base. If a trutly cookie cutter build is found (B/p or the equivalent), it's the player base that chooses to run it. Although A-net probably is at fault for designing the mission to be runable by such a build. Right now however, it seems DoA is functioning as intended. You need to have a balanced party to beat it, and every class is really effective in their roles.

I hate gloom so much, tried it several times today with warrior mof. Problem was I couldnt bodyblock all of them when the waves came in, eventually a dervish would run past me and thus /end mission.

As for Failed Creations, I dont see how a warrior will be wanted in that..small rooms at start, gates locking behind us...... ><..and I thought Jadoth was impossible!

Well..gonna play the waiting game, I cant figure this out. If bodyblocking is a concern, try using the walls, or maybe bring another tank. Maybe even have the other tank be a Dervish who uses crippling sweep to get the guys who get past.