Melee characters are too easily shut down in pvp

Carth`

Carth`

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

I think the situation is fine. One thing you are forgetting is melee characters are very powerful.

When I am playing a warrior or thumper or sin or whatever, yes blind and SS and other melee hate is annoying. But I tell you what is also annoying: playing a caster and being killed by a warrior or assassin in 2 seconds.

Guild Wars is primarily a TEAM game, something which is often being forgotten in recent times. You spend most of your time in PvP countering another player in a gigantic game of rock paper scissors with millions of variables.

I presume your experiences are coming from RA. Just like 1v1, the 4v4 random battles are not what Guild Wars is about. They are there for a bit of fun, something which is lost now that there is a title involved. Problems in RA usually stem from what it is - random. If someone happens to bring a counter to your build and your team doesn't have a counter to it, that's tough. It isn't a problem in the design of Guild Wars.

It's like saying rock-paper-scissors isn't fair because when you play paper people choose scissors. Well, maybe someone else on your team is rock and deals with that player.

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizmor
You talk the talk but you can't walk the walk. Why don't you enlighten me to how a warrior or other melee class can somehow get around melee hate whilst still maintaining some semblemance of offense. Tell me how you can counter stances, condition spam, hex spam, prot spells, wards, kiting and a whole host of other things with a measely 8 skills.
W/N

Plague Touch (instantly removes conditions, whether spammed or not)
Gaze of Contempt (instantly removes all enchantments when over 50% health)
Rigor Mortis (target foe can't block or evade, which allows you to avoid nasty stances/wards)
Sprint (anti kiting)
Rez Signet
3 Attack Skills of your choice (which is plenty of offense, IMO)

Yes, it doesn't prevent hexes, but no build in Guild Wars can counter every possible combination. That's the beauty of it - there is no uber-build - just ones that can deal with some situations better than others.

You could modify this to a W/Me or a W/Mo to deal with some items versus others as well, but again, there is no one build that covers all.

DeathandtheHealing

DeathandtheHealing

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2006

In a PVE GUILD YAY! :P

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop it Off
i never understood why people say that.

eles have skills that can do 90+damage a second, every second.


i just dont know of any warrior skills that can do that much without needing a ton of addrenaline.
Think of it this way. Can your ele in one hit. do 100-125 dmg and cause and deepwound resulting in another like 100 health lost?

I highly doubt it.

Sir Skullcrasher

Sir Skullcrasher

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

California

15 over 50 [Rare]

W/Mo

Elite skills such as Blackout killed alot of melee attacks and shut down those warriors/sin/dervish that charged after mesmers. And Power Block completely shut down any casters who tried to use skills for few second. But they are way around that if the opposing team has another mesmer with fast casting on high. They could possibly block out these elite skills before it is cast..

Bankai

Bankai

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Bubblegum Dragons

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Also I'm seeing this "zomg warriors=DPS pwnzors stuff of teh uber in teh game" stuff again.. and before I could agree with it but has anyone tested a Derv's pure dps vs. a warrior's dps? I think the Derv will win :-\
We're not talking about how warriors have the highest dps. We're talking about how Warrior (which is basically, melee. Warrior hate also includes Dervishes and Assassins) hate is needed because the melee characters can attain high dps.

(new paragraph starts here. Just so you don't think I'm still commenting on that quote.)
The main reason why there's so much warrior hate right now is, as said, because physical attacks are just strong. You can have a high DPS combined with medium to high armor. Even if you shut it down, it's not that hard to get rid of, and not that powerful. For example, let's take a warrior. If he's blinded he either waits for it to go away or asks a monk. If he was using eviscerate, too bad. You can spike again in 11 seconds (8 times 1.33). Now, let's take an elementalist. You're casting Searing Flames (just using a random example). If you're hit by distracting shot, too bad. Can't cast again for 20 seconds. If you have diversion on you, it's a choice. Either have a monk remove it, which is risky (since most hex removal has got a much longer recharge than condition removal and skills like Blight are quite expensive) or you don't cast for 10 seconds. If you DO cast searing flames (or, if you have it available, use a fodder spell) you're shut down for a whole minute.

Now, you might think, why did you just compare those two. Doesn't this just mean warriors are leet at DPS and Eles suck? No, it just adds perspective to this case. While there is a lot of warrior shutdown, it's not very strong. You have blind, which is removed by a 3/4 cast 3/4/5 second recharge 5e spell. You have weakness, which isn't that massive of a problem. There's blurred vision, which screws you over but has a 20 second recharge. Plus it asks people to spec into the water magic line.

However, let's take casters. There's a whole class dedicated to countering casters, but caster hate is much more devestating. A successful diversion can totally screw over a monk or other caster. Power Leak is brutal on an energy-intensive caster. However, you don't need a lot of it. And you can easily over-build on caster hate. While every team runs at least one melee character (I'm generalizing here though. There are some builds without melee characters) because of their DPS, not every build runs a lot of casters (and here is a big difference: monks are not easily suspectible to caster hate, since most skills used cast fast. I'm mainly looking at casters in the form of eles, ritualists, mesmers.). Your main goal of character hate (I'm seperating caster hate and monk hate here) is to decrease the damage output of the enemy. If you pack Guilt to screw over an enemy ele and to severely lower their DPS, and they aren't running one, you've just wasted a skill. More importantly, if you brought a mesmer because of this, you wasted a character. However, if you pack warrior hate, you need multiple skill slots. They won't be wasted anyway, you'll always be able to use them. (Note: Blinding surge is kind of leet for warrior hate, since it's practically the only skill you need [apart from anti-warrior on the monks etc], though it's elite) So a lot of teams bring lots of warrior hate and little caster hate.

I was actually going to write more, but someone called me while I was typing out the last paragraph and I forgot.

Edit: Just an fyi, I typed out this post about 3-4 hours ago but forgot to push reply.

Haggard

Haggard

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Urmston, Manchester, UK

Greener Pastures [DVDF]

W/Rt

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathandtheHealing
W/N with plague touch much?
hate hexes soo much?
W/Me with hex breaker?

just little things you can do to counter some problems to some extent.
They work work fine in RA
Just more arguments for how anything can be countered in this game - the sheer amount of skills and tricks available only causes the circle of destruction to turn into a web.

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop it Off
i never understood why people say that.

eles have skills that can do 90+damage a second, every second.


i just dont know of any warrior skills that can do that much without needing a ton of addrenaline.
No ele skill does this considering the basic after cast time fixed into every spell used limits that to once every 1.75s. That is also assuming you are hitting against AL 60 only and against an unprotected target or a target with no condition removal etc. This is also assuming you are attempting to complain about searing flames as well.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade
lol thats so completely untrue, the only thing Warriors can boast is they have the highest base armour value. And before u complain, yes ive read why nuking sucks but i find it totally untrue its doesnt take into account alot of things.
Post your math to prove it. If your argument is that the math is in a vaccume, then you have no argument since you can place much more effective shutdown on a slow spell caster such as a elementalist.

unienaule

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Random Arenas are random chance, so, let's take into consideration a couple facts.
1) Some people out there are going to run pure melee hate builds.
2) Some of those people are going to play in Random Arenas.
3) There aren't many monks who like to play RA.

Therefore, if the chance that you will get a monk in your team is pretty low (and it is), when someone on the other team runs melee hate, you're screwed. But in GvG, when it matters, you ALWAYS have monks. So yes, sometimes you lose at games of random chance. It happens to EVERY CLASS in RA.

selber

selber

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

www.peace-and-harmony.de

Warriors are overpowered.

Only the wide spectrum of melee-counters the developers added to this game make them balanced.