NO… not because the derv is weak. But some skills should be buffed so as to increase build diversity. Here are my suggestions.
[And yes… I’m spending too much time thinking about this game]
Scythe Mastery –
Lyssa's Assault – This skill might be worthwhile for a R/D…maybe. But for any derv build I can think of its no good. The energy gain is minimal and damage is weak. Changing the energy cost benefits the R/D more than the derv, so that would not work. How about changing this skill to say 5e, and say “If this skills hits, you steal 1…3…5 of target foes energy”. That would also be more in-tune with what Lyssa (ie God of Mesmers) is about.
Reaper’s Sweep – This skill is extremely outclassed by Eviserate. I know you cannot make a direct comparison between dervs and warriors. But this skill sets up that comparison as it is a “spike-pressure” type attack. I suggest changing this skill to say “If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. If your target was below 25…50…70% Health, you also inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.”
Attacker’s Insight and Onslaught – I don’t get it. There are no derv skills and few other attack skills that have more than 10e cost. If, as Guildwiki suggests, this is used with Lyssa’s Assault, then you are using two skill slots to gain a net 7 energy ( assuming Scythe is 16). Given that dervs have a decent energy management through Mysticism, this seems to be of little use. In fact, the derv class has several attack-based energy management skills, including Onslaught, Lyssa’s Assault, and Zealous Vow. These skills seem designed for R/D instead of for dervs. But R/Ds don’t need a lot of energy management skills. How about changing Attacker’s Insight to affect the next two attack skills, making it more usefull for Dervs? And for Onslaught, “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, your attack Skills recharge 25% faster and you attack 33% faster”
Pious Renewal – The energy management for this is OK I guess. At 12 Mysticism, you get back 6 energy when the enchant ends. The health gain on this is too little. In 8 seconds, you can cast and remove 4 enchants max ( maybe six if you remove them all at once with say, Mystic Sandstorm). So this elite skill can give around 48hp over 10 seconds, in addition to the 72hp from mysticism. That’s assuming you’re who skill-bar is filled with enchants. That’s pretty low healing for a situational, short-lived enchant. As a remedy, I suggest that the healing amount is upped. OR, better yet, change the skill to be like this: “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, whenever an Enchantment ends on you, you gain 0...2 Energy and 0...8 Health, and adjacent foes take 0-15 holy damage”.
Buff Dervish Skills
ogami_ito
twicky_kid
There is a limited number of things a dervish can do. Based on your job what elite you take. Its not that these elites are no good they just do not fit into the job that the dervish has been assigned or there are better options.
If you are melee you will have an avatar or ebon dust cloak. If you are a caster derv you will have arcane zeal.
None of those elites fit into a primary dervish's job. So they should be made to work on x/D like they are now.
If you are melee you will have an avatar or ebon dust cloak. If you are a caster derv you will have arcane zeal.
None of those elites fit into a primary dervish's job. So they should be made to work on x/D like they are now.
Earendil
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogami_ito
NO… not because the derv is weak. But some skills should be buffed so as to increase build diversity. Here are my suggestions.
[And yes… I’m spending too much time thinking about this game]
Scythe Mastery –
Lyssa's Assault – This skill might be worthwhile for a R/D…maybe. But for any derv build I can think of its no good. The energy gain is minimal and damage is weak. Changing the energy cost benefits the R/D more than the derv, so that would not work. How about changing this skill to say 5e, and say “If this skills hits, you steal 1…3…5 of target foes energy”. That would also be more in-tune with what Lyssa (ie God of Mesmers) is about.
Reaper’s Sweep – This skill is extremely outclassed by Eviserate. I know you cannot make a direct comparison between dervs and warriors. But this skill sets up that comparison as it is a “spike-pressure” type attack. I suggest changing this skill to say “If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. If your target was below 25…50…70% Health, you also inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.”
Attacker’s Insight and Onslaught – I don’t get it. There are no derv skills and few other attack skills that have more than 10e cost. If, as Guildwiki suggests, this is used with Lyssa’s Assault, then you are using two skill slots to gain a net 7 energy ( assuming Scythe is 16). Given that dervs have a decent energy management through Mysticism, this seems to be of little use. In fact, the derv class has several attack-based energy management skills, including Onslaught, Lyssa’s Assault, and Zealous Vow. These skills seem designed for R/D instead of for dervs. But R/Ds don’t need a lot of energy management skills. How about changing Attacker’s Insight to affect the next two attack skills, making it more usefull for Dervs? And for Onslaught, “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, your attack Skills recharge 25% faster and you attack 33% faster”
Pious Renewal – The energy management for this is OK I guess. At 12 Mysticism, you get back 6 energy when the enchant ends. The health gain on this is too little. In 8 seconds, you can cast and remove 4 enchants max ( maybe six if you remove them all at once with say, Mystic Sandstorm). So this elite skill can give around 48hp over 10 seconds, in addition to the 72hp from mysticism. That’s assuming you’re who skill-bar is filled with enchants. That’s pretty low healing for a situational, short-lived enchant. As a remedy, I suggest that the healing amount is upped. OR, better yet, change the skill to be like this: “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, whenever an Enchantment ends on you, you gain 0...2 Energy and 0...8 Health, and adjacent foes take 0-15 holy damage”.
Lyssa's assault - agree with you it makes for a poor e management, with little damage bonus. If you hit three mobs though with the AoE it gets better...Probably a PvE only skill - you have to be sure to hit 2-3 mobs to make it worth it. If you would actually steal the energy from the enemy it would be awesome (and very imbalanced for PvP ..the arenas would ROAR at it
)
Reaper`s Sweep has the damage bonus of Executioner, the DW lenght of Eviscerate (double of the wearying strike) and can do AoE....The recharge is a bit long but its great as it is IMO.
Attacker insight is a weird one. It would probably work as a GoLE on attacks, only it would take a 15-25 e attack to make it worth it and there are no such attacks on the scythe line. Would work on other classes attacks but guess what ? other classes like wars or sins dont have 15-25 e attacks either and Concussion shot is much better handled by expertise...except if you take it on a Derv primary which is ....weird.
Onslaught might work on a x/D (war or sin) but it would be tricky to use. No point for a scythe. There are too many good elites for scythes: Reapers Sweep, Wounding Strike, Melandru, even Vow of strenght. And Sins have better elites too.
Pious Renewal is equivalent to a boost of 6 to the Mysticism bonus. It would take very specific build to make it work and it competes with Arcane Zeal which looks a lot better. Your suggestion of holy damage will make Dervs great targets for Smiting on with RoFs and guardians
[And yes… I’m spending too much time thinking about this game]
Scythe Mastery –
Lyssa's Assault – This skill might be worthwhile for a R/D…maybe. But for any derv build I can think of its no good. The energy gain is minimal and damage is weak. Changing the energy cost benefits the R/D more than the derv, so that would not work. How about changing this skill to say 5e, and say “If this skills hits, you steal 1…3…5 of target foes energy”. That would also be more in-tune with what Lyssa (ie God of Mesmers) is about.
Reaper’s Sweep – This skill is extremely outclassed by Eviserate. I know you cannot make a direct comparison between dervs and warriors. But this skill sets up that comparison as it is a “spike-pressure” type attack. I suggest changing this skill to say “If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. If your target was below 25…50…70% Health, you also inflict a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.”
Attacker’s Insight and Onslaught – I don’t get it. There are no derv skills and few other attack skills that have more than 10e cost. If, as Guildwiki suggests, this is used with Lyssa’s Assault, then you are using two skill slots to gain a net 7 energy ( assuming Scythe is 16). Given that dervs have a decent energy management through Mysticism, this seems to be of little use. In fact, the derv class has several attack-based energy management skills, including Onslaught, Lyssa’s Assault, and Zealous Vow. These skills seem designed for R/D instead of for dervs. But R/Ds don’t need a lot of energy management skills. How about changing Attacker’s Insight to affect the next two attack skills, making it more usefull for Dervs? And for Onslaught, “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, your attack Skills recharge 25% faster and you attack 33% faster”
Pious Renewal – The energy management for this is OK I guess. At 12 Mysticism, you get back 6 energy when the enchant ends. The health gain on this is too little. In 8 seconds, you can cast and remove 4 enchants max ( maybe six if you remove them all at once with say, Mystic Sandstorm). So this elite skill can give around 48hp over 10 seconds, in addition to the 72hp from mysticism. That’s assuming you’re who skill-bar is filled with enchants. That’s pretty low healing for a situational, short-lived enchant. As a remedy, I suggest that the healing amount is upped. OR, better yet, change the skill to be like this: “Elite Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, whenever an Enchantment ends on you, you gain 0...2 Energy and 0...8 Health, and adjacent foes take 0-15 holy damage”.
Lyssa's assault - agree with you it makes for a poor e management, with little damage bonus. If you hit three mobs though with the AoE it gets better...Probably a PvE only skill - you have to be sure to hit 2-3 mobs to make it worth it. If you would actually steal the energy from the enemy it would be awesome (and very imbalanced for PvP ..the arenas would ROAR at it
)Reaper`s Sweep has the damage bonus of Executioner, the DW lenght of Eviscerate (double of the wearying strike) and can do AoE....The recharge is a bit long but its great as it is IMO.
Attacker insight is a weird one. It would probably work as a GoLE on attacks, only it would take a 15-25 e attack to make it worth it and there are no such attacks on the scythe line. Would work on other classes attacks but guess what ? other classes like wars or sins dont have 15-25 e attacks either
and Concussion shot is much better handled by expertise...except if you take it on a Derv primary which is ....weird. Onslaught might work on a x/D (war or sin) but it would be tricky to use. No point for a scythe. There are too many good elites for scythes: Reapers Sweep, Wounding Strike, Melandru, even Vow of strenght. And Sins have better elites too.
Pious Renewal is equivalent to a boost of 6 to the Mysticism bonus. It would take very specific build to make it work and it competes with Arcane Zeal which looks a lot better. Your suggestion of holy damage will make Dervs great targets for Smiting on with RoFs and guardians
milias
I think Dervish skills are overpowered as it is, I just hope they don't get nerfed.
Solus_the_Deadly
Dervish are far from overpowered compared to Necros and Ele's. Everything with a dervish is mainly to do with enchantments and their removal, but you can't really use it too your advantage. There needs to be better enchantments for a start.
strcpy
I doubt it will happen - my guess is that dervs will get hit with the nerf bat pretty hard.
Like it or not (personally I would rather see some buffs but in the end do not really care) skill rebalances to increase build diversity generally knock the top skills down. Talk to some long term ele's if you want a long winded rant There was a time when necro's didn't out nuke the nukers, though we now have one spell that does nuke pretty good (and I expect a good nerf to it also). I also suspect some pretty major Paragon nerfage - especially after they even got a special swing of the nerf bat during what is typically a no-no time of the year for skill changes.
I have one of each class primary and most skills unlocked (and enough gold/skill points to get what I will need if I do not). I'm not attached that much to any one class, though I have to say I have *really* liked my dervish.
Like it or not (personally I would rather see some buffs but in the end do not really care) skill rebalances to increase build diversity generally knock the top skills down. Talk to some long term ele's if you want a long winded rant
There was a time when necro's didn't out nuke the nukers, though we now have one spell that does nuke pretty good (and I expect a good nerf to it also). I also suspect some pretty major Paragon nerfage - especially after they even got a special swing of the nerf bat during what is typically a no-no time of the year for skill changes. I have one of each class primary and most skills unlocked (and enough gold/skill points to get what I will need if I do not). I'm not attached that much to any one class, though I have to say I have *really* liked my dervish.
ogami_ito
I believe that Dervs are pretty much perfectly balanced as it is. The only skills that might be nerfed are AoGrenth and Mystic Regen. I pray they don't nerf Mystic Regen though. How can you say that Dervs need better enchants though? And how can you compare them to necros and elementalists ? Yes, many necros can eat up dervs no sweat, but that does not make them overpowered.
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Dervs are gonna get nerfed... hard.. first my silly reason, they aren't Anets fav touch rangers, blinding flash eles, or mesmers. now for the real reason.. They have become a jack of all trades..more so than the ranger or in some ways, mesmer.. They can go melee hate with ebon dust aura, and shutdown any target they assault, they can go spike using Reaper's Sweep+Chilling Victory, they can go anti caster in some ways using Vow of Silence, also completely anti prot monk using Grenth, can tank better than a warrior using AoB+Mystic Regen+Vital Boon+Conviction+a few other enchants, and above that, their critical strikes are one of the most deadly hits in the game.. They are likely to go the way of fire eles...I hope not, but... it is likely.
ogami_ito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Dervs are gonna get nerfed... hard.. first my silly reason, they aren't Anets fav touch rangers, blinding flash eles, or mesmers. now for the real reason.. They have become a jack of all trades..more so than the ranger or in some ways, mesmer.. They can go melee hate with ebon dust aura, and shutdown any target they assault, they can go spike using Reaper's Sweep+Chilling Victory, they can go anti caster in some ways using Vow of Silence, also completely anti prot monk using Grenth, can tank better than a warrior using AoB+Mystic Regen+Vital Boon+Conviction+a few other enchants, and above that, their critical strikes are one of the most deadly hits in the game.. They are likely to go the way of fire eles...I hope not, but... it is likely.
OK. I don't agree with your silly reasons. But lets look at that first and ask a basic question...why does Anet love those classes (assuming they do?) I think because touch rangers show off the ranger's versatility and shows off how different classes combine well. Mesmer's are just a really unique class to GW and should be loved. Blinding Flash Eles...don't know why they are loved.
Second, just FYI, I think a derv spike is really Avatar of Melandru>Wearying Sweep> (Mystic Sweep and/or Chilling Victory)
Third of all, I believe that dervs are clearly meant to be sort of a Thumper replacement or, in general, a replacement for R/W, E/W, and M/W in what they are capable of. . They have a lot of diversity in builds, but they need to specialize and each specialization is not as good as combinations from other classes in most circumstance (EXCEPT FOR THUMPERS and anti-prot monk builds...Derv dps builds and spike builds are definitly better in performance and utility than Thumper builds). Dervs cannot really tank better than a warrior in DoA. Maybe almost equal in FoW though. They are not as good at anti-melee as mesmers, who can not only blind meleers, but can also cause tremendous armor-ignoring damage. But that's apple's and oranges...Mesmer anti-anything is sort of spikey and reactive. Derv anti-anything builds are more dps oriented.
Derv's are currently the best anti-prot monk class. And if anywhere they get nerfed, it may be here. Or maybe not...maybe Anet wants there to be an anti-prot class in order to encourage other types of healers.
Second, just FYI, I think a derv spike is really Avatar of Melandru>Wearying Sweep> (Mystic Sweep and/or Chilling Victory)
Third of all, I believe that dervs are clearly meant to be sort of a Thumper replacement or, in general, a replacement for R/W, E/W, and M/W in what they are capable of. . They have a lot of diversity in builds, but they need to specialize and each specialization is not as good as combinations from other classes in most circumstance (EXCEPT FOR THUMPERS and anti-prot monk builds...Derv dps builds and spike builds are definitly better in performance and utility than Thumper builds). Dervs cannot really tank better than a warrior in DoA. Maybe almost equal in FoW though. They are not as good at anti-melee as mesmers, who can not only blind meleers, but can also cause tremendous armor-ignoring damage. But that's apple's and oranges...Mesmer anti-anything is sort of spikey and reactive. Derv anti-anything builds are more dps oriented.
Derv's are currently the best anti-prot monk class. And if anywhere they get nerfed, it may be here. Or maybe not...maybe Anet wants there to be an anti-prot class in order to encourage other types of healers.
Skuld
Lyssa's is fine for a R/D, or to keep an Onslaughter up, or just an extra free attack for filler. Lots of skills have that low damage, that one has a more useful side effect under certain circumstances though :]
Pious is made for renewable sandstormers, its fine. I do agree that mystisism and Renewal's health gain should be upped, atm its just an inconveniance
Don't make it like in the preview, but make it worth something ^^
You can't compare Evicerate to Reaper's Sweep, the former is for spiking, the latter is a v. high dmg attack (most bonus damage available)? I don't know if it needs changing, its just a bad comparison you made.
Pious is made for renewable sandstormers, its fine. I do agree that mystisism and Renewal's health gain should be upped, atm its just an inconveniance
Don't make it like in the preview, but make it worth something ^^You can't compare Evicerate to Reaper's Sweep, the former is for spiking, the latter is a v. high dmg attack (most bonus damage available)? I don't know if it needs changing, its just a bad comparison you made.
Dutch Masterr
dervish are damn strong as they are and i too belive some skills are overpowered and are going to get nerfed. i hate dervish, but even i dont want them nerfed (except 1 skill)....they are great the way they are....stack enchantments then take them off for condition spikes, damage spikes and healing...in my opinion ebon dust aura is kind of over powered because it leaves warriors assassins and rangers useless unless they plague touch the blind to the dervish. even if the dervish is blind they can stil do damage which is what makes it over powered (my opinion...)
Skuld
lol, if you think blind is overpowered, you should probably stop talking ;p
Saider maul
skuld for once we agree. lol.
Seriously. the Dervish does have a few slightly out of balance skills which will probably be addressed in the near future. But all in all they are a very balanced and versital class.
If you think the mage bomb is over powered why did you stand there. The PBAoE of mage bombing takes some skill to make it hit properly and the conditions are nice until you run into a RC monk.
If you think the scythe/avatars are over powered look again. only 1 do i consider to be slightly unbalanced and that is avatar of lyssa.
remember this is a frontline melee class so they do need to be durable.
theres alot of other classes and skills that need " nerfed " before they look to adjust the Dervish line.
Seriously. the Dervish does have a few slightly out of balance skills which will probably be addressed in the near future. But all in all they are a very balanced and versital class.
If you think the mage bomb is over powered why did you stand there. The PBAoE of mage bombing takes some skill to make it hit properly and the conditions are nice until you run into a RC monk.
If you think the scythe/avatars are over powered look again. only 1 do i consider to be slightly unbalanced and that is avatar of lyssa.
remember this is a frontline melee class so they do need to be durable.
theres alot of other classes and skills that need " nerfed " before they look to adjust the Dervish line.
Skuld
If so, then why is Lyssa never used, anywhere, yet Grenth runs rampant in GvG and the HoH?
Dutch Masterr
i dont think blind is overpowered, i think the fact that a warrior or assassin has no way to counter it....like this for example...a dervish with a icy scythe of fortitude runs up to a warrior with ebon dust aura on and uses crippling sweep. now, in 1 skill your crippled and blind. the dervish adds a few more enchants and we have burning, bleeding and weakness on top of 2x 60+ earth damage and 1x 50+holy damage.....all of which dont require being able to see. even with a monk backing you up, as soon as its removed, its back on again.
Skuld
you seem to be thinking RA terms
get your mesmer to train the ebon user when he recasts
get your mesmer to train the ebon user when he recasts
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
ogami my silly reason were called silly for a reason..they aren't meant to be taken serious, they are just..well...silly
and AoM+Wearying doesn't add +50 armor ignoring damage now does it?
I don't even understand the whole thumper replacement thing you had going there, so I'm not even going to respond to it..
BTW Skuld, my guild is still recruiting it's last ten or so members, so if you are interested drop me a PM, and I'll give you the details.
and AoM+Wearying doesn't add +50 armor ignoring damage now does it?
I don't even understand the whole thumper replacement thing you had going there, so I'm not even going to respond to it..
BTW Skuld, my guild is still recruiting it's last ten or so members, so if you are interested drop me a PM, and I'll give you the details.
Quid Pro Quo
The Dervish can be very powerful when their enchantments are on.. other then that they are horribly soft. Even though stripping a Dervish's enchantments may give the Dervish a quick health and energy boost it will soon kill them as enchantments are their replacement for armor.
But thats like saying an Elementalist is overpowered because you don't move out of their AoEs. Sure its possible to survive standing in an AoE just as its possible to kill a Dervish with his enchantments on but its a lot easier just to move out of the AoE or strip the enchantments off of a Dervish.
But thats like saying an Elementalist is overpowered because you don't move out of their AoEs. Sure its possible to survive standing in an AoE just as its possible to kill a Dervish with his enchantments on but its a lot easier just to move out of the AoE or strip the enchantments off of a Dervish.
ogami_ito
Several questions / comments:
1. why is AoLyssa overpowered?
2.Kijik: "AoM+Wearying doesn't add +50 armor ignoring damage now does it?" What are u refering too?
3. Thumpers are for DPS + some KD, but are less durable than warriors. Ders can be for DPS and lots of conditions, but are less durable than warriors
4. Dervs lose enchants they just re-aply. Need a lot of enchant removal to make them soft. To strip a derv, typically you would need to hit with an edenial attack at the same time as an enchant strip.
1. why is AoLyssa overpowered?
2.Kijik: "AoM+Wearying doesn't add +50 armor ignoring damage now does it?" What are u refering too?
3. Thumpers are for DPS + some KD, but are less durable than warriors. Ders can be for DPS and lots of conditions, but are less durable than warriors
4. Dervs lose enchants they just re-aply. Need a lot of enchant removal to make them soft. To strip a derv, typically you would need to hit with an edenial attack at the same time as an enchant strip.
Saider maul
I said lyssa would be the one i would consider overpowered if there was 1 avatar that was over powered. their spike ability is a touch to much at times.
I personally have used lyssa and hit for over 200dmg on 2 consecutive swings. granted prot can reduce it greatly, blind can prevent it but nothing else in the game hits that hard unless your target has frenzy on.
aside from that. dervish are fine as is.
I personally have used lyssa and hit for over 200dmg on 2 consecutive swings. granted prot can reduce it greatly, blind can prevent it but nothing else in the game hits that hard unless your target has frenzy on.
aside from that. dervish are fine as is.
Skuld
On the other hand, prot can't reduce grenth ;p
Gimme Money Plzkthx
Wow, skills that are nearly worthless or outclassed, we know there aren't dozens of those in other classes. If anything, dervishes need a bit of damage reduction, but they definitely DO NOT need a buff. Plenty of worthless skills in other professions that seem to go unnoticed, especially after nightfall.
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Ogami, Reaper's, at max scythe mastery gives about +50 damage, and IIRC the + damage on attack skills was armor ignoring, also IIRC this +50 damage is the highest of any +damage attack skill across every single class, making Reaper's one of the best attack skills in the game (atleast IMO) and also makes it a very viable attack against high armor enemies like Warriors or convicted dervs among other classes with their skills and such. that fact that it adds +50 armor ignoring damage on top of the high critical hit strength of the Scythe, makes reaper's incredibly powerful, and sadly, probably in for a nerf >.>
Skuld
They aren't going to nerf something that is never used Kijik..
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
well let's hope so, cuz I sure love reducing casters from full hlth to nothing in seconds...
Saider maul
screw a scythe i prefer mage-bombing.
I still say leave the Dervish alone.
There are alot of other classes that need adjusted before dervish req looking into.
I still say leave the Dervish alone.
There are alot of other classes that need adjusted before dervish req looking into.
Skuld
No Saider, Grenth is at the top of the list.
Skuld
[skill]Harrier's Grasp[/skill] too.
I suppose for people who don't own prophecies, they can run grenth's grasp plus called shot on a R/D?
I suppose for people who don't own prophecies, they can run grenth's grasp plus called shot on a R/D?
Former Ruling
kuwlij - Grenth's Grasp is dumb, not because of Crippling Sweep, but because a non-elite [skill]Harrier's Grasp[/skill] totally outclasses it 10 fold...and isn't elite.
Dervishs, if anything, will be hit in the next skill balance due to some of the insane enchantments they have compared to other classes, and the fact that most of their used attack skills are low cost low recharge attacks with fast attack speeds (Warriors would sale their moms into slavery to have nice faster speed attacks - They already bring Crit Chop as a staple and Protector Strike saw heavy use awhile ago)
But I don't think they'll get hit too much.
EDIT: beat by Skuld on the first point :\
Dervishs, if anything, will be hit in the next skill balance due to some of the insane enchantments they have compared to other classes, and the fact that most of their used attack skills are low cost low recharge attacks with fast attack speeds (Warriors would sale their moms into slavery to have nice faster speed attacks - They already bring Crit Chop as a staple and Protector Strike saw heavy use awhile ago)
But I don't think they'll get hit too much.
EDIT: beat by Skuld on the first point :\
Seef II
Well, looking through the skill listings, Dervish isn't terrible, but there are definitely a few skills that stand out as being much better than the others. I don't really forsee that many Dervish skills getting nerfed. A lot of them need buffing, actually, to see use in PvP (and some are already quite maligned in PvE).Victorious Sweep - good damage, low recharge, self-heal
Avatar of Grenth - insane enchant hate
Wearying Strike - very good with Melandru
Ebon Dust Aura - this thing's just disgusting if buried in an enchant stack
Harrier's Grasp - outclasses Grenth's Grasp
Reaper's Sweep can put out some pretty disgusting numbers but the conditional deepwound and moderate recharge basically balance it out. You can afterspike with eremi te's/mystic though, but 50% is quite a sticking point. I quite like this skill myself and usually run it, but I've been favoring Wounding Strike lately so as to hit the 20% reduction in healing earlier.
Onslaught's fun, but the reduction in cost is iffy (and any more would be borderline crazy with R/Ds, but I think everyone's still hooked on thumpers) and the duration too short to seriously run. Do you even get a return on the 10 energy every time you use Onslaught? In my fights, I don't, unless I use Lyssa's Assault to power some more Wild Blows out.
Lyssa's Assault is fine, by the way. The damage is mediocre, and sure it's expensive at 10e, but if you have a dead slot, I don't think you can really complain about what is otherwise a cheap or free +5..20 damage.
The only difficult thing I can really think of that might need looking at is scythe damage in general, which gets absolutely disgusting at VoD (not even 16 scythe and you can see Wearying crit for 143 often) and with generous Wild Blow abuse. I'm not a fan of PvE bosses 2-hitting my squishies either.
Reaper's Sweep can put out some pretty disgusting numbers but the conditional deepwound and moderate recharge basically balance it out. You can afterspike with eremi te's/mystic though, but 50% is quite a sticking point. I quite like this skill myself and usually run it, but I've been favoring Wounding Strike lately so as to hit the 20% reduction in healing earlier.
Onslaught's fun, but the reduction in cost is iffy (and any more would be borderline crazy with R/Ds, but I think everyone's still hooked on thumpers) and the duration too short to seriously run. Do you even get a return on the 10 energy every time you use Onslaught? In my fights, I don't, unless I use Lyssa's Assault to power some more Wild Blows out.
Lyssa's Assault is fine, by the way. The damage is mediocre, and sure it's expensive at 10e, but if you have a dead slot, I don't think you can really complain about what is otherwise a cheap or free +5..20 damage.
The only difficult thing I can really think of that might need looking at is scythe damage in general, which gets absolutely disgusting at VoD (not even 16 scythe and you can see Wearying crit for 143 often) and with generous Wild Blow abuse. I'm not a fan of PvE bosses 2-hitting my squishies either.
ogami_ito
Kijik, here is the thing about Reapers. I see it as the same function as Evicerate on a warrior, but its not nearly as good as Evicerate. I thought that Reaper does +40 at 16 scythe (not +50)...I'll have to look at that. But Evicerate can (and often is) used more often, and does deep wounds always. Now, a Derv using an Attack Elite is not nearly as durable as a warrior using an attack elite. Therefore, the attack elites should be considerably better. In the end, though, I guess that Reaper versus Eviserate is balanced if you consider that Reaper can hit up to three targets while Evicerate hits just one.
As it is, dervs can really do about as much damage, if not more, using other elites that offer more utility. Case-in-point: AoMelandru + Wearying. Yes that is a two-skill combo compared to Evic+Exec. Actually, we should consider it a 3 skill combo because there should also be Mystic Sweep or Chilling Sweep with this. But the utility of AoM+Wearying > Reapers + any other attack. Consider that AoM+Wearying can do +120 damage (plus DW) in the time that Reaper does just +40 and DW if target is less than 50% health.
I'm curious about the comparisons, so I will run it down here. Assuming 16 scythe, 3 enchants up, no energy probens, and always hitting, in 10 seconds. Also assuming that the goal is to give your target deep wounds while doing a lot of damage.
AoM+Wearying+Mystic Sweep= +240 damage +DW +200 hit points +no conditions (counting 1/2 damage for a third Mystic Sweep attack that would take place at 12 seconds)
AoM+Wearying+Chilling Victory= +185 damage +63 cold damage +DW +200hp +no conditions
Reaper + Mystic Sweep + Chilling Victory = +135 damage +63 cold damage +DW if opponent <50% health. (counting 1/2 damage for a third Mystic Sweep attack that would take place at 12 seconds)
As it is, dervs can really do about as much damage, if not more, using other elites that offer more utility. Case-in-point: AoMelandru + Wearying. Yes that is a two-skill combo compared to Evic+Exec. Actually, we should consider it a 3 skill combo because there should also be Mystic Sweep or Chilling Sweep with this. But the utility of AoM+Wearying > Reapers + any other attack. Consider that AoM+Wearying can do +120 damage (plus DW) in the time that Reaper does just +40 and DW if target is less than 50% health.
I'm curious about the comparisons, so I will run it down here. Assuming 16 scythe, 3 enchants up, no energy probens, and always hitting, in 10 seconds. Also assuming that the goal is to give your target deep wounds while doing a lot of damage.
AoM+Wearying+Mystic Sweep= +240 damage +DW +200 hit points +no conditions (counting 1/2 damage for a third Mystic Sweep attack that would take place at 12 seconds)
AoM+Wearying+Chilling Victory= +185 damage +63 cold damage +DW +200hp +no conditions
Reaper + Mystic Sweep + Chilling Victory = +135 damage +63 cold damage +DW if opponent <50% health. (counting 1/2 damage for a third Mystic Sweep attack that would take place at 12 seconds)
ensoriki
If Dervishes need a buff
then assassins need a miracle.....so hard to have any diversity with a sin since A-net Insist on making it a liniar class
Rits Can barely cast up all there summons now, regardless of communing and Restoration
Warriors are Out damaged, by a Sins DPS and Dervishes (altho sins have so much limitation...warriors can easily counter the sin)
Paragons are seen by many as crap
And you think Dervs need a buff.........your damn looney......worse then looney tunes
If anything everything else needs a buff(except necros) And Dervs just need mystic regen moved to mysticism.....Happy thats a buff...then you can move into wind prayers with no problem and get all your Good skills from wind prayers
Dervs using Avatar of Lyssa Already can make any of there skills insanely power
A D/n using wearying strike+ plague touch and then Vow of strength does strong damage aswell....what a dervish needs is just for wind prayers to be more useable instead of Mystic twister+sandstorm combo....
then assassins need a miracle.....so hard to have any diversity with a sin since A-net Insist on making it a liniar class
Rits Can barely cast up all there summons now, regardless of communing and Restoration
Warriors are Out damaged, by a Sins DPS and Dervishes (altho sins have so much limitation...warriors can easily counter the sin)
Paragons are seen by many as crap
And you think Dervs need a buff.........your damn looney......worse then looney tunes
If anything everything else needs a buff(except necros) And Dervs just need mystic regen moved to mysticism.....Happy thats a buff...then you can move into wind prayers with no problem and get all your Good skills from wind prayers
Dervs using Avatar of Lyssa Already can make any of there skills insanely power
A D/n using wearying strike+ plague touch and then Vow of strength does strong damage aswell....what a dervish needs is just for wind prayers to be more useable instead of Mystic twister+sandstorm combo....
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
ok I am beginning to see your point, but for now I think that specualtion for the battle between those two is sort of a moot point, until after the balance. I do see that it can be stronger, the one downside is that while AoM is not on, you don't want to use Wearying due to the weakness factor. So Reaper's is useful in that way that you can use it and use it. Well anyway gj explaining that there ogami.
Edit: Ensoriki, that made absolutely no sense, and you should just go ahead and delete that post there.. it is a jumble of off topic stupidity if I have ever seen it.. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Edit: Ensoriki, that made absolutely no sense, and you should just go ahead and delete that post there.. it is a jumble of off topic stupidity if I have ever seen it.. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
strcpy
I usually carry Reaper's Sweep, more because I do not like waiting for the form to recharge. It's decent +damage and pretty much ensures almost any target that gets below 50% health dies *quick*. I suppose that it isn't the most efficient, however I find it more enjoyable.
At least in my experience I can not make a case that, overall, which one is best. AoM + Wearying Strike obviously is the highest DPS, however having to sit around with two useless skill slots while the form recharges hurts it quite a bit in the long run. Reaper's suffers from being too conditional, about half the targets drop before I get it off, the other half it really helps. The +50 damage is nice so I normally just use it there. Ebon Dust Aura can really mitigate melee damage if enemies clump, otherwise I'm running around trying to spread conditions and several spell casters do it MUCH better not having to close to melee range. Eh, at least in PvE I can not find a clear winner.
That being said, the skill rocks as a solo farmer. Farming Griffons in the Crystal desert it is trivial to get three being hit. They all pretty much get below 50% at the same time and it currently does deep wound every target it hits that meets it's requirements. Nothing like adding deep wound on three Griffons (hydra's, trolls, or whatever - I like the griffons but do all of them from time to time) in one swing. they drop *real* quick after that.
As I said in an earlier post - I expect some hard nerfs. When played well the Dervish is (in my opinion) currently one of the most powerful classes. I'm hoping their main concern is PvP where this is MUCH less true and the overpowered PvP skills are not the overpowered PvE ones. I still say that Dervishes are fairly balanced - they should be one of the biggest buffs to mesmers in GW (along with a searing flame ele), but alas mesmers still get little love and people do not want to use them. I know that even the PvE mesmers in some places totally shut down both of those classes - it only takes a skill or two, if humans were so inclined we would most likely be looking at few nerfs instead of some heavy ones. It will be interesting how Anet handles this next skill balance, I can not think of one I have been more interested in since release.
At least in my experience I can not make a case that, overall, which one is best. AoM + Wearying Strike obviously is the highest DPS, however having to sit around with two useless skill slots while the form recharges hurts it quite a bit in the long run. Reaper's suffers from being too conditional, about half the targets drop before I get it off, the other half it really helps. The +50 damage is nice so I normally just use it there. Ebon Dust Aura can really mitigate melee damage if enemies clump, otherwise I'm running around trying to spread conditions and several spell casters do it MUCH better not having to close to melee range. Eh, at least in PvE I can not find a clear winner.
That being said, the skill rocks as a solo farmer. Farming Griffons in the Crystal desert it is trivial to get three being hit. They all pretty much get below 50% at the same time and it currently does deep wound every target it hits that meets it's requirements. Nothing like adding deep wound on three Griffons (hydra's, trolls, or whatever - I like the griffons but do all of them from time to time) in one swing. they drop *real* quick after that.
As I said in an earlier post - I expect some hard nerfs. When played well the Dervish is (in my opinion) currently one of the most powerful classes. I'm hoping their main concern is PvP where this is MUCH less true and the overpowered PvP skills are not the overpowered PvE ones. I still say that Dervishes are fairly balanced - they should be one of the biggest buffs to mesmers in GW (along with a searing flame ele), but alas mesmers still get little love and people do not want to use them. I know that even the PvE mesmers in some places totally shut down both of those classes - it only takes a skill or two, if humans were so inclined we would most likely be looking at few nerfs instead of some heavy ones. It will be interesting how Anet handles this next skill balance, I can not think of one I have been more interested in since release.
Mr_Cynical
I don't think Derv will get nerfed. Sure, it can stack up some serious damage, but enchantment removal makes a Dervish much less powerful. What's required isn't a nerf, but for players to learn to take an enchantment removal with them, the same way casters will always try to take a snaring hex or crippling attack to fend off Warriors.
The 'problem' with the Derv is that it introduces a whole new dynamic to the game , which Assassins and Ritualists did not (yeah, Sins and Rits added to the game, but they didn't change the game all that much in terms of strategy. a Sin is countered in many of the same ways as a Warrior for example). As soon as people learn to counter Dervishes instead of moaning about them, Dervs will go back to being 'just another class' instead of being 'OMG OVERPOWERED NERFLOL'
The 'problem' with the Derv is that it introduces a whole new dynamic to the game , which Assassins and Ritualists did not (yeah, Sins and Rits added to the game, but they didn't change the game all that much in terms of strategy. a Sin is countered in many of the same ways as a Warrior for example). As soon as people learn to counter Dervishes instead of moaning about them, Dervs will go back to being 'just another class' instead of being 'OMG OVERPOWERED NERFLOL'
Shoitaan
Personally I'd like a slight buff to windprayer skills but thats me
And am I the only one that finds the duration of vow of silence to be a tad too short? I don't run but apparently its good for that... but who cares? :/
I'm D/E and I rather use obsidian flesh than VoS
And am I the only one that finds the duration of vow of silence to be a tad too short? I don't run but apparently its good for that... but who cares? :/
I'm D/E and I rather use obsidian flesh than VoS
ensoriki
Actually I agree with shoitaan....I think wind prayers should get a buff aswell hopefully to mystic healing
Servant of Kali
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu
also IIRC this +50 damage is the highest of any +damage attack skill across every single class
Enraged Lunge does +80, and that's the first skill which came on my mind.
Nerf beastmasters.
Nerf beastmasters.
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
oh yeh there's that one, enraged is so fun to use. But I think Reaper's comes after that as highest, and is definitely highest melee +damage attack.
Seef II
Decapitate is +53 at 16. But Reaper's at +42 on a 9-41 weapon is awesome. Hammers also use an elite (Forceful Blow) to match the unconditional damage -- an elite which is pretty bad.