It seems like every time it's suggested that a necromancer, primary or secondary, use Virulence as her elite, it's soundly dumped on, unless you are running the Me/N Fragility spike gimmick.
What is the deal? A low cost, short cast spell that causes 3 conditions, once of which spreads to adjacent foes? Why the hate? Why the "poor choice of elite, you n00b" crap?
Why the Virulence hate?
Robin_Anadri
Hella Good
Depends on the context of the build. Virulence is pretty tough to fit in the builds that are dominating PvE and it clearly has no room in PvP where the Desease will spread to your allies, too. Apart from the Frag spike that doesn't even use the actual Conditions for anything more than the spike damage.
ss1986v2
well, generally speaking, direct dmg > conditional/degen dmg.
as for the D/N virulence spam, the reason virulence is not very good there is the fact that the dervish already can spread lots of conditions without investing in their secondary and using an elite. think about what you are actually doing with that build: you drop cripple on your target, then drop virulence. now you have one target stacked with conditions. just one. you are not spreading your conditions to the whole team (disease doesnt count cause your team has it too, negating itself), not forcing any kind of team wide pressure. plus if you run into a RC monk, the entire point of your build is worthless.
all you have at that point is a mild spam of cripple, and thats only if they dont have enchant removal. because you only have one enchant, and it has a longer than some recharge, id be using you to fuel my e surge (inspired enchant every time you recast). now you have a dervish with no enchants, no condtions, and only mild spammable dmg. worthless.
as for the D/N virulence spam, the reason virulence is not very good there is the fact that the dervish already can spread lots of conditions without investing in their secondary and using an elite. think about what you are actually doing with that build: you drop cripple on your target, then drop virulence. now you have one target stacked with conditions. just one. you are not spreading your conditions to the whole team (disease doesnt count cause your team has it too, negating itself), not forcing any kind of team wide pressure. plus if you run into a RC monk, the entire point of your build is worthless.
all you have at that point is a mild spam of cripple, and thats only if they dont have enchant removal. because you only have one enchant, and it has a longer than some recharge, id be using you to fuel my e surge (inspired enchant every time you recast). now you have a dervish with no enchants, no condtions, and only mild spammable dmg. worthless.
Robin_Anadri
While I can appreciate your points, ss1986v2, it should be noted that a) the D/N build I linked on the wiki is most emphatically NOT designed as a PvP build. It's PvE and works very, very well in that environment. Disease vs NON-HUMAN mobs + Reap Impurities = lots of damage + lots of self heal. However:
b) I'm not defending my D/N build here (nor the other one, which is NOT mine). My question is about the elite Virulence itself. Is it universally reviled? Is there no one else who really likes this elite and uses it regularly?
b) I'm not defending my D/N build here (nor the other one, which is NOT mine). My question is about the elite Virulence itself. Is it universally reviled? Is there no one else who really likes this elite and uses it regularly?
ss1986v2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
While I can appreciate your points, ss1986v2, it should be noted that a) the D/N build I linked on the wiki is most emphatically NOT designed as a PvP build. It's PvE and works very, very well in that environment. Disease vs NON-HUMAN mobs + Reap Impurities = lots of damage + lots of self heal.
sorry, i got the two builds crossed up when i was referencing them. yes, the pve form of the build can be nice. disease doesnt always spread to your team, making is a more viable option. in pve, most anything can work, and things most wouldnt use can actually work exceedingly well. no argument there.
id still think about investing in a different elite because you have too may other options to spread conditions in the dervish line without using an elite (aura of thorns, veil of thorns, wearying strike, harriers grasp, just to name a few). and thats not taking into account the elite skills grenths grasp, wounding strike, ebon dust aura, all of with can spread conditions as well if not better than virulence.
plus, i dont rly like reap impurities all that much. the cost is too high, the recharge too long, and you can find skills that do similar/the same/better things, cheaper and more spammable at that. it just takes bringing a few more enchants. which is another issue: this build still loses to enchantment removal. with only one enchant, if it gets removed, you are only left with three skills: victorious, chilling, and consume corpse. all three are good, but you could use those same skills with other different skills with a better result.
most of my comments before where directed more to the pvp form of the build (the one in the other thread), although i was little crossed up on some of the skills used in each. still, my comment on that one remain the same: lacking in about every area.
PS, forgot all about your virulence question lol
as for virulence specifically, the reason its not liked is simply because its not that good. if it spread those conditions to everyone in the area with a condition, you would see more use of it. but it doesnt, it only gives them to a single target. and unless you are spiking a target (deep would + covers), conditions are better spent being spread to all the enemies not just one. plus, again, you can deal more dmg with different elite (direct dmg > conditional/degen dmg). even non-direct dmg elites, like reapers mark, can deal more dmg and has a nice little bonus effect, while being just as spammable without the conditional use. again, loses on all fronts.
id still think about investing in a different elite because you have too may other options to spread conditions in the dervish line without using an elite (aura of thorns, veil of thorns, wearying strike, harriers grasp, just to name a few). and thats not taking into account the elite skills grenths grasp, wounding strike, ebon dust aura, all of with can spread conditions as well if not better than virulence.
plus, i dont rly like reap impurities all that much. the cost is too high, the recharge too long, and you can find skills that do similar/the same/better things, cheaper and more spammable at that. it just takes bringing a few more enchants. which is another issue: this build still loses to enchantment removal. with only one enchant, if it gets removed, you are only left with three skills: victorious, chilling, and consume corpse. all three are good, but you could use those same skills with other different skills with a better result.
most of my comments before where directed more to the pvp form of the build (the one in the other thread), although i was little crossed up on some of the skills used in each. still, my comment on that one remain the same: lacking in about every area.
PS, forgot all about your virulence question lol
as for virulence specifically, the reason its not liked is simply because its not that good. if it spread those conditions to everyone in the area with a condition, you would see more use of it. but it doesnt, it only gives them to a single target. and unless you are spiking a target (deep would + covers), conditions are better spent being spread to all the enemies not just one. plus, again, you can deal more dmg with different elite (direct dmg > conditional/degen dmg). even non-direct dmg elites, like reapers mark, can deal more dmg and has a nice little bonus effect, while being just as spammable without the conditional use. again, loses on all fronts.
Pick Me
I don't think its so much as a hate again Virulence. It is more towards, "there are better elites for a necro than virulence". Icy Veins, Reaper's Mark, Toxic Chill, Contagion, Signet of Suffering, Ravenous Gaze, Discord, etc. Not including any elite that is good for a MM. Sadly, most people are still stuck on SS or MM in PvE. As if these are the only two styles of play the Necromancer can do.
Anyway, I love Virulence, I use it in PvE (when I hench). When I PUG, I go with SS or MM, unless we already have them or don't need them. Then I feel free to do as I wish.
I have never been booted out for taking things people don't think I should have. They live with it and learn to either keep their mouths shut or appreciate the fact that I can still help the party.
Anyway, I love Virulence, I use it in PvE (when I hench). When I PUG, I go with SS or MM, unless we already have them or don't need them. Then I feel free to do as I wish.
I have never been booted out for taking things people don't think I should have. They live with it and learn to either keep their mouths shut or appreciate the fact that I can still help the party.
Wrynn
As ss mentioned, the reason virulence is basically non-existent as far as elites go, honestly, because it doesnt do much, in pve, im sure you could find some weird ass build to use it it, but realistically speaking, lots of areas have foes that wont even TAKE most conditions, thereby drastically reducing its effectiveness.
From a pvp standpoint, to realistically use this skill, you need two other dedicated people: a taint necro (to protect against the disease that spawns from viru) and secondly a Fevered Dreams mesmer (to actually make the massive conditions load spread better) Ive actually done this a while ago in tombs. In gvg? Not very viable, teams tend to have strong anti condition stuff, and you cant get people to stand as close in the larger setting. (Not to mention the problem of building around a specific hex and not having a large hex build behind it)
From a pvp standpoint, to realistically use this skill, you need two other dedicated people: a taint necro (to protect against the disease that spawns from viru) and secondly a Fevered Dreams mesmer (to actually make the massive conditions load spread better) Ive actually done this a while ago in tombs. In gvg? Not very viable, teams tend to have strong anti condition stuff, and you cant get people to stand as close in the larger setting. (Not to mention the problem of building around a specific hex and not having a large hex build behind it)
kazjun
Pvp you're just putting pressure on you're own monks, but I do sometimes use it in pve. Well, on my w/n anyway. Sever+gash+virulence is good for killing other warriors/heavy armour. And bosses like shiro.
But its a pretty specialised use.
But its a pretty specialised use.
Foldesur V.
There is nothing wrong with Virulence. On a D/N yes it is a poor choice of skill however if you are taking a necro first class or second class then there is no problem with it if you use the right skills with it.
In my time using Virulence I have found that it is great as a Solo or single out killer. The stack of Max degen and the Rot keeps members away form the person that has it and makes it easy to use condtion based hexes on the taget and spread the degen around.
Yes one condtion Rot ( causes -3 degen or -4 I forget) can spread to your team, but if your team is smart they wont bunch up anyway so it should not be a big problem.
If you want to use it spread conditions to everyone you can use.
Epidemic
Description Transfer all negative "Conditions" and their remaining durations from target foe to all foes adjacent to your target.
Energy Cost 10
Casting Time 1/4 seconds
Recharge Time 5 seconds
Skill Type Spell, no attribute
-------------------------------
As a means of sending it to every enemy around that target.
there is also a spell that some people use to take all condtions and drop them on one ore more targets.
Virulence is one of those death spells that can deal and great amount of damage over time ( posion does alot of degen) and really hinder heavy armored targets as Kazjun said with weaken and degen.
When you use Virulence the best targets are targets with alot of protection spells or heavy armor becasue of this direct degen.
Virulence is also one of those skills you do not have to invest alot of points into because it is primarly used as a shock or damage helper. 3 points gets you 4 seconds and thats alot of time if you are using it as a warrior with final thrust.
from a pvp standpoint Virulence is mainly used to help kill off targets and over load the other teams monks with constantly removing condtions. Yes there are ways to counter this build, but with the lack there of people useing Virulence alot of people now days are get shocked or freaked out when they are hit with a bunch of condtions all at once. in pvp your necro would run as a necro/mez or necro/mo ( necro ranger if you feel lucky)to heal with the rot problem( or spread and deal more degen) but a good team will have it under control.
as Wrynn said it is Not very viable to take this skill, but I have to respectfully disagree and say that if your team plays its cards right it is an extreamly usefull skill and can really cause alot of problems with the other team. This skill might not have a build anymore that is ready for Alliance battle ( the old Mez/n condtion spiker), but it sure has alot of room to expand and grow.
The lack of Virulence being used by other people really has to do with what Pick Me said about people useing only 2 builds. It really is a lack of thinking that causes people to ignor other skills. I my self have been playing as a necro for a year+ and find the MM builds and SS builds to be mind numbing.
I myself favor the N/W the most because its so much fun to play as in pve.
I even have a build for N/W that uses Virulence.
any how Robin_Anadri no worries on Virulence, its not a bad skill, just miss used.
In my time using Virulence I have found that it is great as a Solo or single out killer. The stack of Max degen and the Rot keeps members away form the person that has it and makes it easy to use condtion based hexes on the taget and spread the degen around.
Yes one condtion Rot ( causes -3 degen or -4 I forget) can spread to your team, but if your team is smart they wont bunch up anyway so it should not be a big problem.
If you want to use it spread conditions to everyone you can use.
Epidemic
Description Transfer all negative "Conditions" and their remaining durations from target foe to all foes adjacent to your target.
Energy Cost 10
Casting Time 1/4 seconds
Recharge Time 5 seconds
Skill Type Spell, no attribute
-------------------------------
As a means of sending it to every enemy around that target.
there is also a spell that some people use to take all condtions and drop them on one ore more targets.
Virulence is one of those death spells that can deal and great amount of damage over time ( posion does alot of degen) and really hinder heavy armored targets as Kazjun said with weaken and degen.
When you use Virulence the best targets are targets with alot of protection spells or heavy armor becasue of this direct degen.
Virulence is also one of those skills you do not have to invest alot of points into because it is primarly used as a shock or damage helper. 3 points gets you 4 seconds and thats alot of time if you are using it as a warrior with final thrust.
from a pvp standpoint Virulence is mainly used to help kill off targets and over load the other teams monks with constantly removing condtions. Yes there are ways to counter this build, but with the lack there of people useing Virulence alot of people now days are get shocked or freaked out when they are hit with a bunch of condtions all at once. in pvp your necro would run as a necro/mez or necro/mo ( necro ranger if you feel lucky)to heal with the rot problem( or spread and deal more degen) but a good team will have it under control.
as Wrynn said it is Not very viable to take this skill, but I have to respectfully disagree and say that if your team plays its cards right it is an extreamly usefull skill and can really cause alot of problems with the other team. This skill might not have a build anymore that is ready for Alliance battle ( the old Mez/n condtion spiker), but it sure has alot of room to expand and grow.
The lack of Virulence being used by other people really has to do with what Pick Me said about people useing only 2 builds. It really is a lack of thinking that causes people to ignor other skills. I my self have been playing as a necro for a year+ and find the MM builds and SS builds to be mind numbing.
I myself favor the N/W the most because its so much fun to play as in pve.
I even have a build for N/W that uses Virulence.
any how Robin_Anadri no worries on Virulence, its not a bad skill, just miss used.
ss1986v2
i will agree that virulence is a good skill, especially when used to overwhelm a single target. its just that the dmg potential is beaten out by other elites that dont have the potential to hurt the user. ill go back to my comparison with reapers mark.
assuming you used enfeeble to kick things off, virulence does 8 pips of degen (4 from poison and 4 from disease), or 16 hp loss per second. assuming that you have 16 in death and the conditions last their entire duration, it comes to 256 degen dmg. as for the weakness on the target, im gonna say that the dmg reduced if your target was a warrior is balanced out by the dmg you/your team may have taken from spreading disease (if your team is organized and doesnt spread it like crazy). if your team isnt organized and clumps up, you have totally negated the spread of disease to the enemy, and now the only extra benefit is the weakness on a warrior.
with reapers mark, assuming just a level of 12 in soul reaping and the hex lasts its duration, the dmg potential of this skill is 300 degen dmg. reapers mark has to last ~25 seconds to equal the potential of virulence. plus it has a very nice side effect that can help to fuel your other skills and doesnt need to meet a requirement to be used. the cost, cast, and recharge are all basically the same, so wont say anything there.
while in pvp, reapers will be called out and removed before you get any real dmg or the bonus, but the same can be said for virulence (RC monk ftw). so we will look at pve. you wont see too much hex removal or condition removal from pve mobs, so the odds of both skills lasting their full potential is good. so reaper's can potentialy deal more/similar dmg and has a nice bonus effect, while being just as, if not more spammable without the conditional use. still, loses on almost every front.
and all of this is pretty moot when you consider direct dmg is almost always better than degen dmg. armor ignoring skills like SS or even non elite skills from the blood line can deal more dmg quicker, to single targets or mobs. and then all of this doesnt consider a MM necro, which has the potential to deal insane amounts of direct dmg, offer aggro control, all without too much trouble to upkeep.
does virulence work? yes, just fine. but there are better options available to deal more dmg.
assuming you used enfeeble to kick things off, virulence does 8 pips of degen (4 from poison and 4 from disease), or 16 hp loss per second. assuming that you have 16 in death and the conditions last their entire duration, it comes to 256 degen dmg. as for the weakness on the target, im gonna say that the dmg reduced if your target was a warrior is balanced out by the dmg you/your team may have taken from spreading disease (if your team is organized and doesnt spread it like crazy). if your team isnt organized and clumps up, you have totally negated the spread of disease to the enemy, and now the only extra benefit is the weakness on a warrior.
with reapers mark, assuming just a level of 12 in soul reaping and the hex lasts its duration, the dmg potential of this skill is 300 degen dmg. reapers mark has to last ~25 seconds to equal the potential of virulence. plus it has a very nice side effect that can help to fuel your other skills and doesnt need to meet a requirement to be used. the cost, cast, and recharge are all basically the same, so wont say anything there.
while in pvp, reapers will be called out and removed before you get any real dmg or the bonus, but the same can be said for virulence (RC monk ftw). so we will look at pve. you wont see too much hex removal or condition removal from pve mobs, so the odds of both skills lasting their full potential is good. so reaper's can potentialy deal more/similar dmg and has a nice bonus effect, while being just as, if not more spammable without the conditional use. still, loses on almost every front.
and all of this is pretty moot when you consider direct dmg is almost always better than degen dmg. armor ignoring skills like SS or even non elite skills from the blood line can deal more dmg quicker, to single targets or mobs. and then all of this doesnt consider a MM necro, which has the potential to deal insane amounts of direct dmg, offer aggro control, all without too much trouble to upkeep.
does virulence work? yes, just fine. but there are better options available to deal more dmg.