Uber-adrenaline build
Thom Bangalter
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Leprechaun
Oh and guys i despise dragon slashers so please dont turn this into a dragon slash discussion thread.
~A Leprechaun~
The elite is bad. end of story. Want fast adrenaline? Run dragon slash. Don't like dragon slash? have fun with gimped bars.
~A Leprechaun~
The elite is bad. end of story. Want fast adrenaline? Run dragon slash. Don't like dragon slash? have fun with gimped bars.
A Leprechaun
*Thought Thom bangalter*
i really dont mind you thinking that, but for me it works great. Have you even tryed it? Or is it to ridiculous for that? lol, I like this build, and mabye some other people do to. Its fun to play and works well, you dont have to like it if you dont want Thom.
^^
~A Leprechaun~
i really dont mind you thinking that, but for me it works great. Have you even tryed it? Or is it to ridiculous for that? lol, I like this build, and mabye some other people do to. Its fun to play and works well, you dont have to like it if you dont want Thom.
^^
~A Leprechaun~
Thom Bangalter
If I'm going to try to be semi-constructive, then get frustrated and start flaming, I will indeed go test the build. And Rage of the Ntoulke (whatever the spelling is) is pretty terrible. It's better than primal rage though, but is slightly worse than battle rage.
A Leprechaun
I have used loads not just in this build in loads of my builds and I get on fine.
But i cant force you to agree with me.
~A Leprechaun~
But i cant force you to agree with me.
~A Leprechaun~
Dazzen
Leprechaun, It works and is very efficient.
I've tweaked it thought, i dropped flail for plague touch (I hardly use IAS witht this build and don't think i need it much), and currently using 14 hammer/14 strenght (because of my STR helmet atm, i'm planning to use a HM helmet later).
What i like in the build idea is the totally different way of playing adreanline skills, since you hardly have to charge them by hitting foes, and with slow hammer swings it's really nice to avoid building up adren.
It's funny how people complain about the 5s selfblackout from rage of the Ntouka on adren skills, since anyway if you do it right you'll completely charge those skills like 10 seconds after... Disabled for 5 secs, who cares, are you going to reuse it in the 5s gap ? They wouldn't be fully charged anyway.
TY for the build, i find it fun, efficient and a refreshing playstyle for my W.
I've tweaked it thought, i dropped flail for plague touch (I hardly use IAS witht this build and don't think i need it much), and currently using 14 hammer/14 strenght (because of my STR helmet atm, i'm planning to use a HM helmet later).
What i like in the build idea is the totally different way of playing adreanline skills, since you hardly have to charge them by hitting foes, and with slow hammer swings it's really nice to avoid building up adren.
It's funny how people complain about the 5s selfblackout from rage of the Ntouka on adren skills, since anyway if you do it right you'll completely charge those skills like 10 seconds after... Disabled for 5 secs, who cares, are you going to reuse it in the 5s gap ? They wouldn't be fully charged anyway.
TY for the build, i find it fun, efficient and a refreshing playstyle for my W.
A Leprechaun
Thanks Dazzen, I'm glad you like it. Yeah you dont really need an IAS but i like one for the damage output. And about the 5 second blackout, you've hit the nail on the head, thats exactly my point. Because after the 5seconds you have full adrenaline anyway from mokele+enraging. ^^
Thanks
~A Leprechaun~
Thanks
~A Leprechaun~
Nexus Icon
I think that's why Rage works so well with hammer skills; the slow swing rate and the amount of time the enemy spends on the floor, especially with Stonefist gauntlets.
See, that's 3 seconds you don't need a skill right there; hit them with another KD when they've gotten up, and they're down for 3 secs again, well over the "Blackout" period for Ntouka.
See, that's 3 seconds you don't need a skill right there; hit them with another KD when they've gotten up, and they're down for 3 secs again, well over the "Blackout" period for Ntouka.
jesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
Honestly, "FGJ!" is a nice bonus, but this works pretty damn well without it. Hopefully then you'll realise why everybody raves about Dragon Slash:
"FGJ!"
Enraging Charge
Flail
Standing Slash
Silverwing Slash
Sun & Moon Slash
Dragon Slash
Res I have used a build almost identical. I still hate FGJ. I replaced Sun and Moon with To The Limit.
As for Rage {E}, like I said.. I liked this skill before, cause I thought it would magically meet all adrenaline requirements for 5 seconds, not give you a mini blackout.
Hammer warriors in PvE rock, they just don't bother rushing in first. I have one that is every caster's favorite boy toy. I've saved countless monks and elementalist with knock down chains. Of course this kind of character is better in situations with terrible aggro, but that happens a lot with PuGs.
A Leprechaun
Yes i agree, on paper that RotN looks bad but jesh you have basically admitted you have never used it and when you use it, it works fine.
~A Leprechaun~
~A Leprechaun~
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Leprechaun
Quote: Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
Quote:
In a perfect scenario, everything would be kept alive and well controlled.|
Originally Posted by A Leprechaun
Oh and guys i despise dragon slashers so please dont turn this into a dragon slash discussion thread.
~A Leprechaun~ The elite is bad. end of story. Want fast adrenaline? Run dragon slash. Don't like dragon slash? have fun with gimped bars. qft.
jesh
Oh god I hate UPS. Sorry about the double post.. *goes to delete it*
When I'm bored, I'll go cap the skill and post my results. There has to be some kind of potential if we have 3 people saying it works nice, so far. On the other hand.. some people like Primal Rage too. =x
Dazzen
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Referring to the 5s recharge. It isn't efficent, period.
Have you tried the build ? I really don't see all the fuss about it with the setup of the OP. It works as stated, deals correct damage especially when you can control aggro and chain yeti smashs/KD skills.
The elite itself taken out from the concept of this build may be bad yeah, but IMO, so is dragon slash without some kind of adren buff like FGJ for it to be charged once. And btw thom, what does dragon slash is doing in a discussion about a hammer build ?
A Leprechaun
Ty dazzen
Buce
I just started using my warrior again and find Rage of Ntouka merit the elite status. Unconditional adrenaline gain, 7 strikes at str 14, for 5e and 15 sec rechg is unbelievable. Weary of blackout? This is your answer, guys. Instant charge for all your adrenaline skills. Like Leprechaun said, try it. The 5 second recharge is nothing if you use Rage again. The key is to chain your attack like assasin, then the 5 sec recharge will be your chain recharge time.
I'm using sword as this skill make Final Thrust make sense again. killer_sss
i used this skill to defeat an anoying dervish 1on1 in gh. mind u i suck at a warrior. havent tried this exact build but i used a sword build hardly tailored specifically for it. rage with the 2 blockdmg skills while wielding sword the heal that disables signets and some swords skille. was great the best thing about it is you can go into build with adrenilain atm you reach your target no need to charge them. rage until you get close to target just to keep adreniline up and first time there is no recharge (as if it affected you nehow) after that just pound pound pound.
Dzus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tan Blademaster
when I see that a warrior build has no rez, outside of ABs and farming, I just stop reading...
Sometimes you've gotta look at it this way: If your party is dead except for the warrior, you may want a new warrior, not a res.
Well, I don't think I'd want to try again, anyway.  And I ran a similar build with swords, I'll give this a whirl as well. ^.^ Munanko Roha
Maybe you should want a new party either...
A Leprechaun
Lol it seems the only people who say RotN is bad are the ones who havent used it. o.O Strange, could this be some kind of coinsidence?
Tingi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzus
Sometimes you've gotta look at it this way: If your party is dead except for the warrior, you may want a new warrior, not a res.
Well, I don't think I'd want to try again, anyway. And I ran a similar build with swords, I'll give this a whirl as well. ^.^ And why is that? Because you associate warriors as being tanks only? Granted they are frontline troops, but If the rest of you're team is dead in PvE - it means that they should LEARN HOW TO KITE instead of just standing around like a lemon taking hits and shouting "z0mg teh warrior dint keep agro!!11!!, he isa n00b!" But to get back to my orignial point. No rez on a warrior outside of farming, abs (and a few other exceptions) = that person should quit gw
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzus
Well, I don't think I'd want to try again, anyway. And I ran a similar build with swords, I'll give this a whirl as well. ^.^ |
However, they rarely happen, and sometimes somebody dies. It's for the good of the whole party that that person gets back up, getting your group up to full efficiency (or at least in a position that's a lot better than if you had seven).
Quote:
I look at a single skill (7 adren), so to take an easy way out of judging this build first.
The numbers in the ()'s are the finish-cast times (i.e. when the skill resolves), in seconds.
Point A in time
Rage of the Ntouka (0)
Mokele Smash (1.17)
Initial usage of skill (2.34)
Downtime/Building (15.21)
Usage of skill (16.38)
Adrenaline Building (21.06)
Mokele Smash (22.23)
Usage of skill (23.4)
...And, your sweet little RotN combo can't be used, so...
Point B
Rage of the Ntouka (23.4)
Usage of Skill (24.57)
Downtime/Building (37.44)
Usage of skill (38.61)
Adrenaline Building (43.29)
Mokele Smash (44.46)
Usage of skill (45.63)
Point C
It's basically Point A, with the skill being used 3 times in 23.4 seconds, then Point B-C recurring, with the skill used 3 times every 22.23 seconds.
Without RotN you would have:
Mokele Smash (1.17)
Adrenaline Building (5.85)
Usage of skill (7.02)
Adrenaline Building (14.04)
Usage of skill (15.21)
Adrenaline Building (19.89)
Mokele Smash (22.23)
Usage of Skill (23.4)
Adrenaline Building (30.42)
Usage of Skill (31.59)
Adrenaline Building (38.61)
Usage of Skill (39.78)
Adrenaline Building (43.29)
Mokele Smash (44.46)
Normal Attack (45.63)
Usage of Skill (46.8)
This is slower than the RotN version by one single attack, at the count of 6 of a single attack skill.
Granted, the scenario changes when you have 2 7-adrenaline attack skills on your bar, and 1 6-adrenaline attack skill on your bar, with Mokele Smash.
With RotN:
Rage of the Ntouka (0)
Mokele Smash (1.17)
Mighty Blow (2.34)
Yeti Smash (3.51)
Hammer Bash (4.68)
Downtime/Adrenaline Building (15.21)
Mighty Blow (16.38)
Attack (17.55)
Yeti Smash (18.72)
Hammer Bash (19.89)
RotN (19.89)
Mokele (21.06)
Recurring, with every 19.89 seconds being a cycle.
Without RotN:
Point D
Mokele Smash (1.17)
Adrenaline Building (5.85)
Mighty Blow (7.02)
Yeti Smash (8.19)
Hammer Bash (9.36)
Adrenaline Building (17.55)
Mighty Blow (18.72)
Yeti Smash (19.89)
Hammer Bash (21.06)
Normal Attack (22.23)
Point E
Mokele Smash (23.4)
Adrenaline Building (26.91)
Mighty Blow (28.08)
Yeti Smash (29.25)
Hammer Bash (30.42)
Adrenaline Building (38.61)
Mighty Blow (39.78)
Yeti Blow (40.95)
Hammer Bash (42.12)
Normal Attack (43.29)
Point F
Mokele Smash (44.46)
Basically, Point D to E is the chain 2 times in 22.23 seconds, and Point E-F is a recurring sequence, having 2 chains in the course of 19.89 seconds.
As you can see, it really does nothing except speed up the first chain by 3~ seconds. With Rage of the Ntouka, you also lose a lot of flexibility.
Plus the Hammer elites are too tasty (Backbreaker? Earth Shaker for PvE? Devastating?).
I just wrote that? I really have no life...
A Leprechaun
But i dont see enraging charge in your calculations, and you should need to do any "building adrenaline".
~A Leprechaun~
~A Leprechaun~
Silk Weaver
Enraging Charge has a 20 second recharge, right?
LightningHell
Exactly. Enraging Charge would do nearly nothing to the above statistics, except give both yes/no RotN a boost at 0/20/40 seconds. It might tilt slightly towards RotN's favor, but nothing major.
Buce
Kudos to LightningHell to make a thorough simulation of the adrenaline builds up. But to me, the advantage of RotN to other adrenaline surging skills is the fact that it's unconditional. Now in both pve & pvp, enemies are using blocks, evades, blinding and hexes for warrior to miss their attack. When you miss, you don't get adrenaline other than from the damage you receive.
Thom Bangalter
First, thanks Lightning for putting in numbers what I was trying to say all along. I feel the information, but lightning thinks it.
The problem with RoTN is that, on a hammer bar, as lightning pointed out, you're passing up some really good elites to pull it off. RoTN does combo nicely with skills that cause you to lose all adrenaline, because you effectively dump anything you had built up in other skills when you use them. Hammer bash comes to mind, but it's obscenely low adrenaline cost makes a skill like enraging charge or stape IAS skills more appealling. The only place I could legitimately see the usefulness of RoTN is to get off a quick final thrust on a target, since it's adrenaline cost is so high, and you've already dumped your previous adrenaline using it.
So something like this: build up sever/gash/more attacks/final; enraging/rotn/gash final. Theoretically you could get two final thrusts off in quick succession of each other. I don't think it would be that effective in pve, but in pvp getting off quick final thrusts in succession is a great thing. I'd have to go test this to be sure, but it's fun to use final thrust if nothing else (partially due to the skill's name).
The problem with RoTN is that, on a hammer bar, as lightning pointed out, you're passing up some really good elites to pull it off. RoTN does combo nicely with skills that cause you to lose all adrenaline, because you effectively dump anything you had built up in other skills when you use them. Hammer bash comes to mind, but it's obscenely low adrenaline cost makes a skill like enraging charge or stape IAS skills more appealling. The only place I could legitimately see the usefulness of RoTN is to get off a quick final thrust on a target, since it's adrenaline cost is so high, and you've already dumped your previous adrenaline using it.
So something like this: build up sever/gash/more attacks/final; enraging/rotn/gash final. Theoretically you could get two final thrusts off in quick succession of each other. I don't think it would be that effective in pve, but in pvp getting off quick final thrusts in succession is a great thing. I'd have to go test this to be sure, but it's fun to use final thrust if nothing else (partially due to the skill's name).
Nexus Icon
Bit of a change from "The elite is bad. End of story", isn't it Thom?
Thom Bangalter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
If I'm going to try to be semi-constructive, then get frustrated and start flaming, I will indeed go test the build. And Rage of the Ntoulke (whatever the spelling is) is pretty terrible. It's better than primal rage though, but is slightly worse than battle rage.
It is bad. It's margins better than primal rage but a step below battle rage and you're sacrificing an elite slot for it on a hammer warrior, of all things.
I never said it was unplayable, but it is terrible. No skill is unplayable.
I never said it was unplayable, but it is terrible. No skill is unplayable.
Dazzen
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
--- insert interesting figures here (this is not sarcastic) ---
To stick to your reasearches, i've also assumed hammer swings of 1.17 (under 33% IAS), and kept the following skillsets :
Standard skillset
- Mighty blow (7 adren)
- Yeti smash (7 adren)
- Hammer bash (6 adren, loose all when used)
- Mokele smash (gain 2 adren on hit)
Rage skillset (see OP build)
- Mighty blow (7 adren)
- Yeti smash (7 adren)
- Hammer bash (6 adren, loose all when used)
- Combo (Mokele smash + enraged charged = +7 adren @ 14 str)
- Rage of the Ntouka
I've tried to compile the datas in a quite readeable form, but it's farm from being very clear at first sight
It's a comparison beetween the above skillsets (timeframe of 60 seconds) but the main unit is 'hammer swings' because it is easier to use than seconds.
It's assumed that each hammer swing hits, every 1.17 seconds.
Based on this chart (that may have some flaws, it's just to get a global idea), i've came up with these conclusions :
1°) The ROTN + Adren combo allows to spam 10 attacks in a row (without a single normal attack in beetween) : Mighty Blow->Yeti Smash->Hammer Bash->Mokele->Mighty Blow->Yeti Smash->Hammer Bash->Mighty Blow->Yeti Smash->Hammer Bash.
This means 4 enhanced damaged strikes (Mighty blow and Mokele), 3 AoE damage strikes (Yeti) and 3 KD (Hammer Bash).
Taking into account that a warrior natural armor penetration takes effect on attack skill useage, this adds up to the great amount of damage.
2°) While there is a 'adrenaline draught' period (beetween swings 11 and 19 for example), you can fairly well restart the attack chain explained in point 1 after this period.
3°) I've evaluated the number of 'attack skills' used in the normal build to 19 (an extra attack for the charged adren skills at the 60s mark).
For the Ntouka build, this sums up to 30, giving 11 more attack skills used.
I hope this explains the synergy and adrenaline-tweak behind the Ntouka hammer build, and why it is not as bad as everyone wants to believe.
Some final conclusions :
- I would hardly use rage of the ntouka in another build, for me it is a very situational elite.
- Hammer has better elites to throw in a general skillbar.
- Seems i don't have a life either
Thom Bangalter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzen
- Hammer has better elites to throw in a general skillbar.
Exactly. I don't care how many extra attacks it does, it ties up your elite.
LightningHell
I don't know, but from first sight you're forgetting that all adrenaline skills deduct a strike of adrenaline from each other adrenaline skill when used, and all attacks give 1.25 strikes of adrenaline.
I have to get off now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment...
I have to get off now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment...
BSSuperman
Hello Mr Leprechaun
Oki Ive read the thread and gave up as soon as the dragon slash posts started coming out so I hope your thread hasnt been too hijacked.
Your build seems ok in theory, I only have a couple of 'suggestions' or "thoughts" about it.
I dont think that your only interrupt/knockdown should be heavy blow, It makes no sense to lose all your adrenaline in an adrenaline build..
However I havent gotten thru to NF yet due to baby being born (dam u RL ) so I dont have operational knowledge of how RotN (Rotten?? LOL) works other than looking at the wiki. Your build is gonna be severly hampered by blind (which warrior isnt (sigh)) and adrenaline denying skills and if your blinded and degen'd then you is a ded man.
Its good to see you trying out the new skills tho.
Ill just have to stick with Devestating Hammer Belly Smash Auspicious blow combo with Tiger Stance for the time being. Good ol' classics....
Oki Ive read the thread and gave up as soon as the dragon slash posts started coming out so I hope your thread hasnt been too hijacked.
Your build seems ok in theory, I only have a couple of 'suggestions' or "thoughts" about it.
I dont think that your only interrupt/knockdown should be heavy blow, It makes no sense to lose all your adrenaline in an adrenaline build..
However I havent gotten thru to NF yet due to baby being born (dam u RL
) so I dont have operational knowledge of how RotN (Rotten?? LOL) works other than looking at the wiki. Your build is gonna be severly hampered by blind (which warrior isnt (sigh)) and adrenaline denying skills and if your blinded and degen'd then you is a ded man.Its good to see you trying out the new skills tho.
Ill just have to stick with Devestating Hammer Belly Smash Auspicious blow combo with Tiger Stance for the time being. Good ol' classics....
Dazzen
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I don't know, but from first sight you're forgetting that all adrenaline skills deduct a strike of adrenaline from each other adrenaline skill when used, and all attacks give 1.25 strikes of adrenaline.
I have to get off now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment... Yeah, i've taken into account the fact that you loose one adrenaline when you use a skill, but also at the same time gain one from hitting (thus resulting in a -1 +1 = 0 so).
I didn't knew about the 1.25 adren thought. Is that for when you hit with an attack skill ?
I have to get off now, so I'll leave it at that for the moment... Yeah, i've taken into account the fact that you loose one adrenaline when you use a skill, but also at the same time gain one from hitting (thus resulting in a -1 +1 = 0 so).
I didn't knew about the 1.25 adren thought. Is that for when you hit with an attack skill ?
jesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
It is bad. It's margins better than primal rage but a step below battle rage and you're sacrificing an elite slot for it on a hammer warrior, of all things.
I never said it was unplayable, but it is terrible. No skill is unplayable. What about Archer's Signet?
I never said it was unplayable, but it is terrible. No skill is unplayable. What about Archer's Signet?
Thom Bangalter
archer's signet+concussion shot, obviously. But...that's the exception that proves the rule.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzen
Yeah, i've taken into account the fact that you loose one adrenaline when you use a skill, but also at the same time gain one from hitting (thus resulting in a -1 +1 = 0 so).
I didn't knew about the 1.25 adren thought. Is that for when you hit with an attack skill ? Every attack gives 25 "points" of adrenaline. Every strike of adrenaline is 20 "points" of adrenaline.
I didn't knew about the 1.25 adren thought. Is that for when you hit with an attack skill ? Every attack gives 25 "points" of adrenaline. Every strike of adrenaline is 20 "points" of adrenaline.
Thom Bangalter
Learn how adrenaline works:
http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=45
Brought to you be none other than Ensign.
http://www.team-iq.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=45
Brought to you be none other than Ensign.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
Thom Bangalter
I could tell, which is how I knew you were right, and I know it's accurate, because it's by Ensign.
Post was, of course, for those getting things mixed up.
Post was, of course, for those getting things mixed up.
Dazzen
Erm, so if each attacks nets 25 adren points, and each strike of adren is 20 adren points, then there's a ratio of 1.25 adrenaline strike gained from each hit as you stated.
so 7 adrenaline skills should charge in (7/1.25) hits = 5.6 hits. Obvisouly 6 hits then as it must be a round number.
Also 6 adrenaline skills should charge in (6/1.25) = 4.8 => 5 hits.
Then i've run a test on the isle of the nameless (please take the time to run it also before trying to counter this argument), with two skills equipped (mighty blow=7 adren, and hammer bash=6 adren).
After 5 hits, hammer bash wasn't charge
After 6 hits, hammer bash was charged but not mighty blow
After 7 hits, both were charged.
So the 1.25 adren strike per hit doesn't make sense.
Also, if you take a 'one adrenaline strike gained per successful hit' context wich i assumed, you would see that the following also occurs in game (again tested on the isle of the namesless) :
Bring two 7 adrenaline skills (mighty and yeti)
- 7 hits to charge mighty and yeti
- using mighty blow on a target, you loose one strike (ie = 6 strikes left) from yeti. But at the same time you're gaining one strike from the hit of mighty blow, thus resulting in the skill being back at 7 adrenaline strikes (7 - 1 + 1).
I think you should try to use the following figure to match in game mechanics with calculations :
one hit = 25 adrenaline points
one strike of adrenaline = 25 adrenaline points
hit/adrenaline strike ratio = 1
This is accurate (and tested) ingame, and does not conflict with charles's guide.
so 7 adrenaline skills should charge in (7/1.25) hits = 5.6 hits. Obvisouly 6 hits then as it must be a round number.
Also 6 adrenaline skills should charge in (6/1.25) = 4.8 => 5 hits.
Then i've run a test on the isle of the nameless (please take the time to run it also before trying to counter this argument), with two skills equipped (mighty blow=7 adren, and hammer bash=6 adren).
After 5 hits, hammer bash wasn't charge
After 6 hits, hammer bash was charged but not mighty blow
After 7 hits, both were charged.
So the 1.25 adren strike per hit doesn't make sense.
Also, if you take a 'one adrenaline strike gained per successful hit' context wich i assumed, you would see that the following also occurs in game (again tested on the isle of the namesless) :
Bring two 7 adrenaline skills (mighty and yeti)
- 7 hits to charge mighty and yeti
- using mighty blow on a target, you loose one strike (ie = 6 strikes left) from yeti. But at the same time you're gaining one strike from the hit of mighty blow, thus resulting in the skill being back at 7 adrenaline strikes (7 - 1 + 1).
I think you should try to use the following figure to match in game mechanics with calculations :
one hit = 25 adrenaline points
one strike of adrenaline = 25 adrenaline points
hit/adrenaline strike ratio = 1
This is accurate (and tested) ingame, and does not conflict with charles's guide.
Thom Bangalter
no...Ensign is always right.