The Need for a War

Wow.. if you had posted this in the Warrior forum..
There has been no need for "tanking" since day one of GW. Any decent warrior can have 16 in his weapon atttribute and still tank/body block. Watch Yourself! & Dolyak Signet do the job fine. Cut the crap with the warrior/tank stereotype.

One more thing: How would those skills be applied to PvP? I don't think Anet wants PvE only skills.

Invalid arguement. That skill sucks regardless of where it's used. Why do people bring it up in a discussion of pve only skills?

If they intend to add traditional tanking(aggro-holding, specifically) skills to a warrior in future chapters, they need to put in a comprehensive aggro system first. Something like a 'hate-list' for a monster, like WoW uses. Currently, besides proximity aggro and seemingly some sort of caster-priority, there isnt much in place.

For those unfamiliar with a hate-list aggro system, say everyone starts with 0. A warrior runs in to get proximity aggro, does some kind of taunt to generate say 100 hate. He has other skills and stuff to help maintain aggro while DPS classes generate hate by doing damage and healers through healing. If someone overtakes the warrior on the hate list, the mob switches to that person.

Not that I'm advocating the use of such an aggro-system in Guild Wars, but if you want warriors to have aggro-holding skills, something like that needs to be implemented.

Agreed it just amounts to a cheat code to over ride the AI.

What about PvP?

Or is this skill suppose to be another "Signet of Capture" in it

Well Duh!

Afterall you can't force human players to switch target afterall, it would be a PvE only skill at the end of the day.

What the new AI has done is strengthen the original "go for the weakest armor" attack programming. If you are running a player party, members can easily adjust for this with positioning, kiting, running away, etc.

I get the feeling the OP doesn't like what it does to a hero/hench party. The single human player has to micro-manage the heroes/henchmen, which is not easy for a less experienced player. It tends to become a disaster when the only human player is a warrior with a poor view of the battle.

Tanking is possible with a team of human players. I've given up on trying to make heroes and henchies tank properly. I'll send Koss in and have him start attacking a mob before I even enter the aggro range, and once I start shooting my bow or the casters start casting their spells, enemies just run around the warrior and charge at us.

I don't think the right solution is a dumb skill like "press this button and enemies start attacking you". I think the aggro system needs a change; distance should have more of a factor in who gets attacked, and things like using a lot of shouts and using area effect attacks should make enemies more likely to attack you. It looks to me that the way it currently works, enemies will attack whoever has the lowest armor as soon as they've "entered" the fight (get into aggro range, cast a spell that affects someone in the fight, or attack).

Obviously an opinion vs a statement of truth. In PvE players are often in situations where they can not kite. Especially if heading out without a group of players. The AI will not allow it. So it is not the players fault they have learned not to kite, it's the AIs and Anet's design in the AI. The player tries the kite, the AI breaks off the attacking and begins to follow. It's always been this way to some extent and most rescently has become worse.

Character builds on the monks was not the suject, but rather why Warriors have little or no point to playing other than being what an assassin "could" be if it had higher armor... a damage dealer that chases mobs around in circles.

Aggro control in GW is nothing more than exploiting the "dumbness" of the mobs by making the get stuck on corners and body blocking, or running in circles till the "get stuck" on the person that should be tanking.

The lack of a real "hate" system has always been, IMO one of the lowest points in GW making it a game of simply exploiting AI to win. Without the hate system in place, PvE looses massive amounts of PvE strategies. Monks can spam heal vs taking and using the best heals for the job. Ele's can just blast away without consern of being a sudden target of a massive slap in the face. Mesmers can hex away on any and all targets without fear of ever getting their attention... and on and on the list goes.

What many assume (from what I read) is that players are wanting an easy way out. Not the case. We are wanting the warrior's to have a role, to put that high armor to use, but also to take the role of group protector. At the same time, every time a monk heals it should raise "hate", every time an ele nukes it should raise "hate", every time that paragon shouts, it should raise "hate". So a warrior's role suddenly becomes that of trying to keep his supportive group members safe and keeping the atention of everything he can. This will not be possible in all situations but will finally give the warriors a job other than "herder" and a "heavily armored assassin" (dps).

A taunt would be ideal, and I found myself in EQ2 being taunted by mobs. The taunt system was very nicely done. My target would auto switch to the taunting target since I obviously couldn't be baited away by an AI creature. A similar setup could be used here (for PvP) and with addition to the hate system, would make PvE far mor interesting. Imagine your attacking about to group spike a monk and suddenly the warrior taunt off some of your spike damage. Your now targeting the warrior instead of the monk. The reverse should always be looked at as well, to make it more difficult and interesting.

WasAGuest, read the Chapter 4: Brute force thread.

I explained why smarter AI is not a good idea.

Kids, this is what happens when you play only with heroes and henchies.

Yes, AI has flaws and limitations. It's computer AI. Imperfect, doesn't know all the strategies, doesn't know tactics, has no spatial awareness.

Players didn't learn how to kite or tank, because they are too leet to enter a PUG. They are so above everything that they [email protected] with heroes. Every other player is a complete moron that couldn't meteor shower their way out of a wet paper bag, and don't even think they have something to learn. They are the bestest of best, and don't you dare judge it. /hugeExhaggeration

Guildwars was, is and will be, a game of skill. It provides a little filler for those downtimes when a group is just not filling up, but is not and will not be, intended for solo play. You can do it, but it's not what it's there for.

So you end up with 3 types of players. Those that learn, those that don't want to learn, and those that can't learn. If you only play game for a few hours a month, or even week, you can hardly play with others, you'll take months to beat a single campaign, and you'll be happy when you do. These players aren't a problem.

The problem comes from those that don't want to learn. Yes, AI has flaws. So group with people. No AI is preventing you from there. "All other people are idiots" - this is the real problem - the attitude.

Teamplay must be learned. No change to game will change that. No improvement to AI will change that.

Kiting is not running all over the map. Kiting is also jumping left and right to dodge projectiles. Running around the warrior so they can grab agro. Running behind a wall to preven direct attacks and some AoE. And so on.

If you want to learnt the game, you simply need to play with real players. Good or bad. The good weren't just born good. Everyone had to learn the same things.

As for chasing mobs on melee. You have cripple, you have knockdowns. I mean, Devona uses KDs to manage agro really well. How hard can it be.

Makes me wonder if a stance tank warrior with crappy starter armor would be viable. He should be grabbing plenty of aggro due to his minimal AL, and defensive stances make AL much less important.

That was kinda my point... guess I didn't state it very well... lol

However, we can't ignore the AI. Anet has released Nightfall with heroes as a major selling point. Completely throwing them away cause they "don't work" that well makes the addition of them rather pointless.

Also, building a skill bar around obvious bugs (such as Benny Hill chasing); and yes these are bugs in the AI that Gaile has said the devs are working on fixing (read the threads on AI bugginess) is just more "exploit" poor code vs skill. Benny Hill... so yea, it's bugged and snaring or knock downs doesn't fix the bug, it exploits it as the AI (mobs and ally) will simply keep trying to follow. - this is nothing different from what was stated in the "Brute force" thread, where the game is less skill vs exploiting code weakness.

Anyway, I personally think GW could go further with the addition of a "hate" system vs what it is now. AI or not, it could be better... all games could always be better for that matter.

LMAO.....Me too! Glad I'm not the only one.

A person that says warriors do paper dmg is the kind of noob with a skill bar like this:

Healing hands, Mending, Healing breeze, Bonetis defense, Power attack, Dolyak Signet, Endure pain, Healing signet.


So Im not even going to take that post serious.


Try puting 16 in axe/hammer/sword whatever you use and pack good skill combos such as

Evis + Exe
sever,gash + final
Devas +crush + fierce


and then tell me if you are doing "paper" damage.

...good warriors do a lot of damage... in anyplace...
...good warriors still agrooing good...

The warrior tank function is choose the first target, run in and take the first >spell wave<, hold some agroo >>>not all<<< and the function of tank over...

Now start the others function... good nukers, good necros, good mesmers and anyother... what the other functions? spread, some self heal, >do damage<...

Any party must start with 2 tanks and 2 monks, if anyone think tanks are useless, try a party without tanks...

I am a caster by nature, but i enjoy playing as warrior... because i just make a good agroo and receive the first damage wave, and over... finish...

One thing that bugs me about this subject is the whole concept of people whining about AI not supposed to be exploited as such. Crippling an enemy that is running away isn't something unintented ie. exploit. tbh, the only real way to beat an opponent is to exploit their weakness and play it to your advantage. Do we want a game where the AI is infinately smarter and more powerful than us? How do you beat that?

You're up for great diversity there buddy. I don't suppose both those monks run healing?

Tiral...

Tural....

Tema....

TOMBS!!!!

There, I remembered.

See also "Urgoz Warren".

Tanks have their place, just like monks do. And mesmers. And ritualists. And assassins lol. But starting from the stance "I'm a Tank" is wrong. Just because you're a warrior doesn't make you a tank. This is where so many players fail.

Not only does GW not need taunt, it doesn't need it. Not now, not before any AI change. DoA, if anything, has proven, that Obsidian geotank uses exactly the same aproach to tanking as warrior can. The skills used are slightly different, but if someone playing a warrior doesn't or even refuses to learn how to tank, then the point of GW combat is lost.

The b/p team is even more unique. It combines ranger stances and throw dirt, combined with minions to do the tanking. Not to mention the 55/605 tanks, dervishes, or just about anyone that's protted enough.

Tanking in GW is player skill and it involves entire team. Not some button you press.

I'm glad there's no taunt skill.

I think the game is well designed as is. The warrior can reduce damage by drawing the initial aggro, and with some skill and cooperation can control aggro somewhat, but not perfectly. The warrior is designed to be a damage dealer first and a meat shield second - this is more fun, and balancing the two is a good test of skill.

There is a sizeable difference between kiting and running away. Kiting does not mean changing your relative position - you want to remain offensively capable while avoiding melee counterattacks. Kite laterally in the battle area rather than back out of it. Hench won't break off attacks and follow if you don't move away in terms of relative positioning - which is running away, and no longer kiting.

Any party of 8...

I ever play safe, if 1 tank die you still with 1, if 1 monk die you still with 1...

And yes i use 2 healing monks...

About diversity my party build in elona is

Me like > any of 10 classes
my 3 low level heros to level up them
devona >FTW
2 healing monks
Elem

My 90% anyplace build team is

Me like > any of 10 classes
2 tanks
2 monks
1 barrage
1 nuker or other barrage
1 my special necro build or MM or a mesmer

I play a efective build team, but i not a brainless noob i kown you can run a 6 man mesmer team + 2 monks, can run partys without tanks... but this party builds will work in 5% <> 10% of all areas? If you stop and make a team build for everyplace, your son will end the game for you...
I talking about a fast good team with 2 tanks and 2 monks...

nothing personal buddy, i just defending my way of playing.

it's sad that the only way to successfuly aggro and hold it in areas like doa is by using bad clipping on walls. No walls or sticking out bits? Nevermind.

If you're referring to hench, you cannot have two Healing monks. Kihm [Healer Henchman] is a ZB/prot monk iirc.

I kown you can play some areas without tanks, but you need to trick the foes in this areas you say...
But i talking about good tanking and a good party build to pass 90% of areas...
Man i think out of the box i love new party builds... i like mesmers, rit, and sin in the partys...
Not personal but you talking about high end team partys, i talking about partys teams for novices and regular players

Sure? well dont mather the foes are dead before do damage to my party anyway the tank hold agroo the nuker nuke the ranger barrage the necro necro them

I will look the skills of Kihm... good set of skills really khim not a pure healing...

Kihm idle quotes in Kourna:

"I'm right behind you. No, don't turn around. The battle is in front of you. Let me worry about your backside."
"Look, I'm a healer. You fight and I'll keep you standing. So stop looking to see if you're hurt and get back out there!"

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Warriors can still absorb more damage than any other class. For instance: in the mission where you must protect the Dervish NPC from the mobs she runs into, the Tank can save her life by running ahead and absorbing the brunt of the enemies attacks, even if the monk is preoccupied.

And FYI, i can still hold aggro with Cyclone Axe or Triple Chop. It's all a matter of ticking off the monsters

GW doesnt have any real tanks.

A real tank can absorb damage being taken by another class.

How about this skill:

"I am your sacrifice!"
5 energy
Elite Shout.
For the next 30 seconds, if a nearby ally were to be attacked, that damage is deflected to you and you suffer (100%......25%) of that damage.

?!!

Kiting is not an AI bug. You could learn a thing or two from the kiting the AI does. Why do you think people bring snares/knockdowns/speed boosts in PvP? To catch kiters. The AI used to sit there and take a beating, this was wrong, and it made PvE players lazy. As soon as the AI does something as simple as moving in circles, it is game breaking for you? People have been doing it in PvP for years.

Sounds a bit like Angelic Bond?

If we're going to have AI aggro improvements, I'd rather see something that more closely simulates PvP strategy (beat on weak or overextended things, use caster shutdowns only on casters, melee shutdowns on melee, maybe even coordinated spiking with sudden target switch, etc.) Not some hate system that makes monsters beat on the character they generally shouldn't (wars) I wouldn't mind wars getting more "defend rest of party" skills instead of not that useful tanking stances. (or the angelic bond suggestion listed above)

One thing people still haven't learned is that 4+ warriors with monk (and maybe an MM) support can outDPS nukers in alot of areas. The damage doesen't come in huge bursts, but you don't have to wait for recharges or energy recovery, and you don't need to spend time until one tank has all aggro when you've got 4 100 AL "tanks" to bodyblock everything, and their skill bar full of attacks.

IMO anyone who misses tanking with their warrior is crazy (or lazy). My first times in FOW, I was told I didn't need to worry about damage skills, just draw aggro and use defensive stances. I found that so boring that I quit doing FOW with my warrior.

Now every quest/mission is an adventure. Look for the healer(s), then look for high damage threat. Change your skill bar to suit the occasion. I'm having fun now with my warrior. No more "Dumb warrior lost aggro" remarks from over-dependent casters.

That's the key here: those areas aren't without tanks. Tanking just works differently. Those areas are just done without warriors.

Unfortunately, in normal areas, the role of warrior is just to run in and take the initial spike, after that it doesn't matter since stuff dies so fast, or simply doesn't position itself to counter usual player builds.

For all normal PvE, especially with heroes, a single tank is enough, since stuff dies so fast it doesn't matter. This is also the main reason why it's hard to learn, since you can only improve in high-end areas.

The role of "tank" is not like other games where you have a class that's designed to that role. Tanking = keeping focus away from backline. This is why kiting is one skills that falls under tanking. They both serve exactly the same purpose, keeping pressure off the backline. Warriors are just best suited to do this by body blocking, and keeping mobs just out of range of others. What else a warrior can do is entirely up to them, interrupts, damage, conditions, KDs, ...

VERY GOOD POINT!

The things changed... now tanks need to fight, the new role of tank is run in take the first spell wave hold >some< agroo and fight... now the others players must be a bit more smarter and efective to still alive, thats i saying...
now foes have a better set of skills if tank dont take the first wave of spells and the party dont spread the foes >aoe< skills rip out the party, i see bosses killing all party just with one spell...

Lightbringers Gaze, Lightbringer's Signet, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet. Seems to me they already have them......

Pvp has enough shouts for agro management.

They involve references to various parts of anatomy, assessments of other player's skill level, and honorable mentions of various familiy members, and actions performed by them.

Okay then, lets scrap all the eventual AI improvements ArenaNet has been working on and throw in that aggro skill that gets enemies onto you. Now we just run tanks and nukers. Hell, lets go remove the minion limit and the %per minion cost of Blood of the Master too.

Remember the gear/book trick?

If you've ever taken a foray into DoA, you'd know that that's exactly what's being used.

I find it humourous to see all the comments regarding warriors taking the aggro first by running in first. The AI doesn't function like this anymore. As soon as other targets come within range, they switch targets immediately. The warrior has no more capability to hold aggro than any other "tank"; the mobs simply go for squishier targets first. The only reason this strategy works in DoA is because of the massive KD's that prevent them from splitting. And even this isn't failsafe, sometimes one breaks through leading to disastrous results.

Which is why you wait until the first wave of offensive spells has been expended before moving soft targets into range.

You know, that initial wave of spells that made people fill Riverside with tears because it spiked them? Warriors and to an extent, rangers can push up first, while the midline/backline group follows a few seconds after. This minimizes the damage taken in the first few seconds - the time before your team can apply shutdown or damage onto the enemy.

Preventing breaking with chain kd's until the mob is dead and the book trick of which regardless, the mob would attack the carrier are two very seperate things.