The next time I see all those Fevered Dreams mesmers looking for a group, I'll invite one. Thanks for saying what I would have said anyways, warriorsmiley.
I'm guessing even in PvE, you probably won't get more than 3 DW from Fevered Dreams. The AI spreads out as second nature now. A warrior can switch targets and apply DW to a new enemy each time - I do it all the time.
There's enough enemies in PvE that DW on two warriors will only help.
I would say that a Triple Chop/Cyclone warrior will probably put as many deep wounds out, if not more, than a FD mesmer. There's a reason that you don't see mesmer using this skill... every time someone makes a Fevered Dreams build that looks really nice, people always come back after testing it and complain that the AoE is too small. Besides, the amount of adrenaline that you can gain with good positioning is attrocious - for an axe or a sword.
The bottom line is: I can count the times I've had a caster take PP/Accumulate Pain in my party. Know why? I ask every single mesmer what skills they use, after I thank them for joining my party. I haven't had 1 mesmer take DW yet. No other caster class can cause DW. Most of the time, I don't find assassins in my party. I have yet to party with another dervish. The end result is that it's pretty much the warrior's job to DW, because otherwise your killing will suck.
Side note: I would really like someone to test the abilities of DW in PvE... It seems to help on bosses a noticable amount, even though they have thousands of hit points. *shrug*
axe or sword?what is better?
jesh
Nexus Icon
I played an Eviscerate build in PvE all the way up until midway through Factions.
Since then, I've mostly been using a Dragon Slash build, and most of the time, particularly recently, without Sever Artery and Gash.
And my damage output has gradually got better.
I also noticed that deep wound wasn't as effective against bosses AGES ago, hence my scepticism about the condition in general. I didn't know that it maxed out at 100, but any idiot can tell it's not taking off 20% of a boss' bar when it's applied.
As for having my killing suck without deep wound, I'll just nod my head and smile.
Thanks to heroes and build synergy, most pre-Desolation mobs are dead before "For Great Justice!" runs out with my current set up.
Less than 20 seconds to kill a whole mob doesn't seem too shabby to me.
Since then, I've mostly been using a Dragon Slash build, and most of the time, particularly recently, without Sever Artery and Gash.
And my damage output has gradually got better.
I also noticed that deep wound wasn't as effective against bosses AGES ago, hence my scepticism about the condition in general. I didn't know that it maxed out at 100, but any idiot can tell it's not taking off 20% of a boss' bar when it's applied.
As for having my killing suck without deep wound, I'll just nod my head and smile.
Thanks to heroes and build synergy, most pre-Desolation mobs are dead before "For Great Justice!" runs out with my current set up.
Less than 20 seconds to kill a whole mob doesn't seem too shabby to me.
Carth`
You are thinking of deep wound with only PvE in mind. In PvE you are right in saying that the trend is that AoE is better than single target damage. But an AoE deep wound isn't all that amazing. The power of deep wound is in the spike of losing 20% of your health in the next hit. If some mesmer comes along in PvP and puts a deep wound on everyone he completely ruins a warrior's spike.
Do whatever you want in PvE, bring Cyclone Axe and Triple Chop, it doesn't really matter what you do so long as you hit stuff. Things die quickly anyway. Don't make huge generalizations about how deep wound sucks. All the conditions are good at different things, and deep wound is a powerful condition, but maybe not as useful in PvE for the same reason that assassins aren't. Killing a single target isn't a challenge, by the time the assassin finishes his attack chain on one target, a caster has killed everything with AoE damage.
Edit: I don't think mesmers causing deep wounds are as common as you claim either. The only time I've seen it is as a condition to trigger Virulence in Frag spike. It would require a lot of coordination and wasted energy to Phantom Pain and shatter it, or put 2 hexes on and use Accumulated Pain right before an adrenaline spike from a warrior. The warrior can consistently apply the deep wound using no energy every few seconds right before a spike.
Do whatever you want in PvE, bring Cyclone Axe and Triple Chop, it doesn't really matter what you do so long as you hit stuff. Things die quickly anyway. Don't make huge generalizations about how deep wound sucks. All the conditions are good at different things, and deep wound is a powerful condition, but maybe not as useful in PvE for the same reason that assassins aren't. Killing a single target isn't a challenge, by the time the assassin finishes his attack chain on one target, a caster has killed everything with AoE damage.
Edit: I don't think mesmers causing deep wounds are as common as you claim either. The only time I've seen it is as a condition to trigger Virulence in Frag spike. It would require a lot of coordination and wasted energy to Phantom Pain and shatter it, or put 2 hexes on and use Accumulated Pain right before an adrenaline spike from a warrior. The warrior can consistently apply the deep wound using no energy every few seconds right before a spike.
Nexus Icon
I didn't claim that mesmers causing deep wounds were common, I just said they were damn good for the job.
I didn't outright denounce deep wound as being awful, I just tried to show some perspective. People here treat it like it's the second coming or something, when it's really just another condition. And ALL conditions are easily removed.
And let's face it, I'm guessing the majority of people praising deep wound to the heavens didn't have the faintest idea that it maxes out at 100HP.
You can tell that from their posts.
I didn't outright denounce deep wound as being awful, I just tried to show some perspective. People here treat it like it's the second coming or something, when it's really just another condition. And ALL conditions are easily removed.
And let's face it, I'm guessing the majority of people praising deep wound to the heavens didn't have the faintest idea that it maxes out at 100HP.
You can tell that from their posts.
Carth`
I dunno. Mesmer methods of causing a deep wound:
Phantom Pain + Shatter/Drain Delusions, 15 energy spent, 15 second recharge
2 hexes + Accumulated Pain, minimum cost 20 energy, 20+ second recharge
A warrior just needs to hit something 5 or more times. He has many attack skills that cause a deep wound, and during a battle can reapply deep wounds very easily and often.
I love mesmers, but for causing a deep wound, I'd say warrior or dervish is "damn good" for the job.
Phantom Pain + Shatter/Drain Delusions, 15 energy spent, 15 second recharge
2 hexes + Accumulated Pain, minimum cost 20 energy, 20+ second recharge
A warrior just needs to hit something 5 or more times. He has many attack skills that cause a deep wound, and during a battle can reapply deep wounds very easily and often.
I love mesmers, but for causing a deep wound, I'd say warrior or dervish is "damn good" for the job.
Nexus Icon
So you're comparing the cost of the mesmer skills to the speed of the warrior skills?
How about being fair and comparing the speeds of both?
With a high enough level in fast casting, the mes can apply a deep wound in just under 2 seconds. If you want to worry about energy costs, take [wiki]drain delusions[/wiki] as opposed to shatter.
Five swings, even whilst under the effects of an IAS, take a bit longer than 2 seconds...
If you want to add Fevered Dreams into the mix, you're adding maybe half a second more to the combo for an area effect deep wound. That's a very quick, area effect, ~100 damage. Sounds pretty good to me. Hell, I may even start playing such a build. I can already think of some nasty stuff to combo it with.
Oh, and contrary to popular belief, deep wound takes effect immediately, not on the next hit. Go test it on the Isle of the Nameless. While you're there, take enough health boosts to tip you over 500 so you can see that it maxes out at 100.
As for the range of Fevered Dreams being poor, I think someone's mistaking it for Epidemic.
Epidemic is "Nearby".
Fevered Dreams is "In the Area".
Again, test it on the Isle.
As for the 15 second recharge, the deep wound is applied for 18. That's a non-issue, unless we take into account condition removal, but you guys have seemed pretty intent on ignoring that up until now.
How about being fair and comparing the speeds of both?
With a high enough level in fast casting, the mes can apply a deep wound in just under 2 seconds. If you want to worry about energy costs, take [wiki]drain delusions[/wiki] as opposed to shatter.
Five swings, even whilst under the effects of an IAS, take a bit longer than 2 seconds...
If you want to add Fevered Dreams into the mix, you're adding maybe half a second more to the combo for an area effect deep wound. That's a very quick, area effect, ~100 damage. Sounds pretty good to me. Hell, I may even start playing such a build. I can already think of some nasty stuff to combo it with.
Oh, and contrary to popular belief, deep wound takes effect immediately, not on the next hit. Go test it on the Isle of the Nameless. While you're there, take enough health boosts to tip you over 500 so you can see that it maxes out at 100.
As for the range of Fevered Dreams being poor, I think someone's mistaking it for Epidemic.
Epidemic is "Nearby".
Fevered Dreams is "In the Area".
Again, test it on the Isle.
As for the 15 second recharge, the deep wound is applied for 18. That's a non-issue, unless we take into account condition removal, but you guys have seemed pretty intent on ignoring that up until now.
Carth`
I don't really see the advantage of how fast you can cause a deep wound, if you have a longer wait to cause it again. Condition removal is common, the warrior might take a bit longer to cause the initial deep wound, but then he can keep causing it consistently. I wasn't comparing energy cost to speed, I was comparing usability, or how easy it is to cause the deep wound. Yes a mesmer could potentially run in and cause a deep wound immediately on someone at full health... what's so good about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
Quote:
Oh, and contrary to popular belief, deep wound takes effect immediately, not on the next hit. Go test it on the Isle of the Nameless. While you're there, take enough health boosts to tip you over 500 so you can see that it maxes out at 100.
Unless it has been changed in the past few days, deep wound takes effect the next time someone takes damage. Not the next hit, the damage can come from any source, a spell, a hex etc. Deep wound appears as a condition immediately, but the 20% loss of life takes effect the next time you take damage. If the 20% loss of life from deep wound would cause you to die, you don't die, you have 1 health, until you take damage.
According to GuildWiki if you have health degeneration the deep wound does take effect immediately, so if you're causing it with Phantom Pain, you're probably right.
According to GuildWiki if you have health degeneration the deep wound does take effect immediately, so if you're causing it with Phantom Pain, you're probably right.
Nexus Icon
It's easy to test Carth, I've done it myself.
Go stand next to the deep wound guy on the Isle of the Nameless.
As soon as the deep wound takes effect, your maximum health will decrease by 20%, or 100 if you have over 500 health.
Go stand next to the deep wound guy on the Isle of the Nameless.
As soon as the deep wound takes effect, your maximum health will decrease by 20%, or 100 if you have over 500 health.
Carth`
The deep wound lowers max health immedietly, but the 20% reduction in current health takes place on the next hit.
Nexus Icon
Nowhere does it say that a deep wound inflicts an extra 20% reduction in health on the next hit.
Here's a diagram:
Now if what you are saying were true, (v) would be how much health the target would lose.
Have you EVER seen that much health disappear from a target's bar in one hit after you've applied a deep wound?
No.
It's all in perception.
What people are REALLY seeing is (iv), which being 400 on the same sized bar as 500 does look more, but is actually the same amount of damage as would be done to a target with 500 health.
Edit: in-game proof for those who still doubt:
Looks like the difference between (iii) and (iv) to me...
And that second 97 was applied immediately after the deep wound, with no other hits in between.
Here's a diagram:
Now if what you are saying were true, (v) would be how much health the target would lose.
Have you EVER seen that much health disappear from a target's bar in one hit after you've applied a deep wound?
No.
It's all in perception.
What people are REALLY seeing is (iv), which being 400 on the same sized bar as 500 does look more, but is actually the same amount of damage as would be done to a target with 500 health.
Edit: in-game proof for those who still doubt:
Looks like the difference between (iii) and (iv) to me...
And that second 97 was applied immediately after the deep wound, with no other hits in between.
Carth`
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
Have you EVER seen that much health disappear from a target's bar in one hit after you've applied a deep wound?
Yes, all the time.
Executioner's Strike can typically do 80-100 or more damage, which is 20% of a 500 health target. But, I can use Eviscerate and get a target to 40% health, and my next Exec's Strike will kill the target. He lost the damage from the attack, and another 20% from the deep wound. I love spikes, you hear the invalid target noise on the monk's slow Zealous Benediction. He thought he had time because the target was at 40% health, but it died from a nice axe spike.
A way of easily seeing it is to make an assassin, and bring the dual attack Twisting Fangs. It inflicts a deep wound, but dual attacks hit twice. Both attacks do the same amount of +damage (something like +17 damage), and both that hit apply a deep wound. You can visibly see the first hit do +17 damage, and the second one do +17 damage and also lose 20% health on top, because the first hit has inflicted a deep wound.
Executioner's Strike can typically do 80-100 or more damage, which is 20% of a 500 health target. But, I can use Eviscerate and get a target to 40% health, and my next Exec's Strike will kill the target. He lost the damage from the attack, and another 20% from the deep wound. I love spikes, you hear the invalid target noise on the monk's slow Zealous Benediction. He thought he had time because the target was at 40% health, but it died from a nice axe spike.
A way of easily seeing it is to make an assassin, and bring the dual attack Twisting Fangs. It inflicts a deep wound, but dual attacks hit twice. Both attacks do the same amount of +damage (something like +17 damage), and both that hit apply a deep wound. You can visibly see the first hit do +17 damage, and the second one do +17 damage and also lose 20% health on top, because the first hit has inflicted a deep wound.
Nexus Icon
Carth, you see that 97 damage with DW in that picture?
I hit one of the armour 60 dummies on the isle with a deep wound, then let it recuperate to full health. I then hit it with Executioner's whilst the deep wound was still active.
So the Executioner's was the first hit after the deep wound was applied, and that was the result.
Like I say, what people believe to be true of deep wound is actually very far from the proven truth.
I hit one of the armour 60 dummies on the isle with a deep wound, then let it recuperate to full health. I then hit it with Executioner's whilst the deep wound was still active.
So the Executioner's was the first hit after the deep wound was applied, and that was the result.
Like I say, what people believe to be true of deep wound is actually very far from the proven truth.
Carth`
I made a picture. I hit the 100AL target for a while. I took a screenshot, then I hit it with Dismember, the attack dealt 24 damage. Then I took another picture. Then I hit it with no attack skill, just a normal swing. It did 18 damage. You can see the result in the picture, this was with hardly any damage and took a huge chunk of health out.
One thing I did notice, if I build my adrenaline on a different target, and then use Dismember and a normal swing on a full health target, the effect is much less. The closer the target was to death, the more the loss of health due to deep wound was closer to 20%. On a healthy target you barely noticed the loss of health from deep wound, but on a target with 20% health left, that just had a deep wound applied, the next hit was instant kill even though it only did 10 damage.
I never realised this about how deep wound works. You learn a lot just from hitting those practice targets, it works strangely. Also if the deep wound ended, and then I hit the target, there was an increase on the health bar on the next hit. Looked like the target got healed after I did damage to it.
Edit: ok to clarify, it isn't always a loss of 20% health. On a healthy target it will be more like 5%. But when it counts, on a target close to death, you can cause 20% loss of health on the next hit.
One thing I did notice, if I build my adrenaline on a different target, and then use Dismember and a normal swing on a full health target, the effect is much less. The closer the target was to death, the more the loss of health due to deep wound was closer to 20%. On a healthy target you barely noticed the loss of health from deep wound, but on a target with 20% health left, that just had a deep wound applied, the next hit was instant kill even though it only did 10 damage.
I never realised this about how deep wound works. You learn a lot just from hitting those practice targets, it works strangely. Also if the deep wound ended, and then I hit the target, there was an increase on the health bar on the next hit. Looked like the target got healed after I did damage to it.
Edit: ok to clarify, it isn't always a loss of 20% health. On a healthy target it will be more like 5%. But when it counts, on a target close to death, you can cause 20% loss of health on the next hit.
Nexus Icon
You're right there, the effects do get more dramatic the closer to 0 health the enemy is, with a significant change at around the 33% mark.
Gah, I hate inconsistency!
But, for the sake of a build, where you want to be doing the damage as quickly as possible as early as possible, is it worth taking up 2 skill slots in a sword build in order to unleash a spike when the enemy is at 33%, or is it better to take 2 high damage skills in those slots instead that could be dishing out larger wedges of damage earlier?
Either way, it seems the waters are cloudier than expected on whichever side of the argument you side.
Gah, I hate inconsistency!
But, for the sake of a build, where you want to be doing the damage as quickly as possible as early as possible, is it worth taking up 2 skill slots in a sword build in order to unleash a spike when the enemy is at 33%, or is it better to take 2 high damage skills in those slots instead that could be dishing out larger wedges of damage earlier?
Either way, it seems the waters are cloudier than expected on whichever side of the argument you side.
Nexus Icon
So I ran a sword spiker too, and whilst you have to wait for adrenaline to build up, when you unleash your skillbar, it's VERY quick to kill.
My issue there however is how long you have to wait for everything to be charged.
I guess that's where the spike build shows it's PvP teeth; it needs to out-damage a monk's protection and heals in as short a time as possible. It's more based on choosing your time.
My apologies, deep wound does have it's place.
For PvE, I still prefer ditching the deep wound in order to keep up a sustained assault of high damage attacks. Whilst you lose a tiny amount of speed when killing individual targets, such a build allows you to move from one target to the next whilst keeping your damage output high, resulting in more kills in a shorter period of time. Like I say, ideal for PvE where monsters don't really kite.
So I think I can safely say that deep wound is fantastic for PvP, but I'd rather leave it at home when playing PvE.
With that in mind:
PvP
[card]Sprint[/card][card]frenzy[/card][card]sever artery[/card][card]standing slash[/card][card]dragon slash[/card][card]gash[/card][card]final thrust[/card][card]resurrection signet[/card]
PvE
[card]"For Great Justice!"[/card][card]Enraging Charge[/card][card]flail[/card][card]standing slash[/card][card]silverwing slash[/card][card]sun and moon slash[/card][card]dragon slash[/card][card]resurrection signet[/card]
Note: the PvE res should really be "Sunspear Rebirth Signet", but Wiki doesn't know what it is
My issue there however is how long you have to wait for everything to be charged.
I guess that's where the spike build shows it's PvP teeth; it needs to out-damage a monk's protection and heals in as short a time as possible. It's more based on choosing your time.
My apologies, deep wound does have it's place.
For PvE, I still prefer ditching the deep wound in order to keep up a sustained assault of high damage attacks. Whilst you lose a tiny amount of speed when killing individual targets, such a build allows you to move from one target to the next whilst keeping your damage output high, resulting in more kills in a shorter period of time. Like I say, ideal for PvE where monsters don't really kite.
So I think I can safely say that deep wound is fantastic for PvP, but I'd rather leave it at home when playing PvE.
With that in mind:
PvP
[card]Sprint[/card][card]frenzy[/card][card]sever artery[/card][card]standing slash[/card][card]dragon slash[/card][card]gash[/card][card]final thrust[/card][card]resurrection signet[/card]
PvE
[card]"For Great Justice!"[/card][card]Enraging Charge[/card][card]flail[/card][card]standing slash[/card][card]silverwing slash[/card][card]sun and moon slash[/card][card]dragon slash[/card][card]resurrection signet[/card]
Note: the PvE res should really be "Sunspear Rebirth Signet", but Wiki doesn't know what it is
Utaku
IMHO the next damage after a deep wound only lets the 20% health reduction to be shown on the health bar, even if it is applied immediately.
But, don't forget that a deep wound alone cannot put something under 1hp.
That's why the combo phantom pain plus shatter dellusions is great, as the damage from shatter is applied after the deepwound from phantom pain, resulting on a spike taking down a lvl 20 target from 33% health to 0 with a descent level in domination.
But, don't forget that a deep wound alone cannot put something under 1hp.
That's why the combo phantom pain plus shatter dellusions is great, as the damage from shatter is applied after the deepwound from phantom pain, resulting on a spike taking down a lvl 20 target from 33% health to 0 with a descent level in domination.
Thom Bangalter
dragon slash+final thrust makes me go 
Dazzen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth`
I never realised this about how deep wound works. You learn a lot just from hitting those practice targets, it works strangely.
Neither me it seems 
I knew there was a cap on the damage, but not about the 'next-hit-effect'.
Ty for pointing it !
@Nexus : In your pvp DS build, when you spike with final thrust, doesn't it takes a bit of time to recharge all adren skills ? (just a PvP noob's question here
)
I knew there was a cap on the damage, but not about the 'next-hit-effect'.Ty for pointing it !
@Nexus : In your pvp DS build, when you spike with final thrust, doesn't it takes a bit of time to recharge all adren skills ? (just a PvP noob's question here
)
Nexus Icon
Yeah, it does, although Final Thrust is really only there as a nod to those who think a spike needs it.
To be honest, I'd be happy with Galrath/Silverwing, Dragon or Standing as the attack after the deep wound.
But to remain a spike, whatever you use, it does have to hit hard.
No point hitting Sever Artery after the deep wound, put it that way :E
Pop it out and stick a utility in; Healing Signet, whatever floats your boat.
To be honest, I'd be happy with Galrath/Silverwing, Dragon or Standing as the attack after the deep wound.
But to remain a spike, whatever you use, it does have to hit hard.
No point hitting Sever Artery after the deep wound, put it that way :E
Pop it out and stick a utility in; Healing Signet, whatever floats your boat.
jesh
Dazzen, yes it does. That's why I don't use DS in the first place..
The only use I can see for DS here is to help apply pressure with Standing Slash until the target gets low enough to spike down. DS and Final Thrust both cost the same adrenaline amount, so there isn't too much else that you can do, unless I'm missing something obvious.
Epidemic is adjacent targets, and Fevered Dreams is in the area. Honestly I didn't know that FD was that large. I have no clue how large "in the area" is. I've never used FD, so I can't complain about it. I've seen other people complain about it though, when I was reading a thread on using a Me/E with FD. They were using it to apply burning and deep wound with Mark of Rodgort and Phantom Pain. Because of the complaints, I never bothered to cap it.
:EDIT: I think you could accomplish almost the same thing as DS in that build with "To The Limit!", and save your elite slot.
DS and Standing/Silverwing/Galrath will deal more damage than a Final Thrust, because of the two base damages, but it obviously takes longer, and it would make it easier for a monk to save the target from the spike.
The only use I can see for DS here is to help apply pressure with Standing Slash until the target gets low enough to spike down. DS and Final Thrust both cost the same adrenaline amount, so there isn't too much else that you can do, unless I'm missing something obvious.
Epidemic is adjacent targets, and Fevered Dreams is in the area. Honestly I didn't know that FD was that large. I have no clue how large "in the area" is. I've never used FD, so I can't complain about it. I've seen other people complain about it though, when I was reading a thread on using a Me/E with FD. They were using it to apply burning and deep wound with Mark of Rodgort and Phantom Pain. Because of the complaints, I never bothered to cap it.
:EDIT: I think you could accomplish almost the same thing as DS in that build with "To The Limit!", and save your elite slot.
DS and Standing/Silverwing/Galrath will deal more damage than a Final Thrust, because of the two base damages, but it obviously takes longer, and it would make it easier for a monk to save the target from the spike.
twicky_kid
Depends on the format: pvp or pve.
In pvp if you are using a non-attack elite then you go sword.
If you are going to use an attack elite you will go hammer or axe.
Axe for spiking. Hammer for pressure.
In PvE IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!
I took 15 in sword with all axe skills and still completed the mission.
In pvp if you are using a non-attack elite then you go sword.
If you are going to use an attack elite you will go hammer or axe.
Axe for spiking. Hammer for pressure.
In PvE IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!
I took 15 in sword with all axe skills and still completed the mission.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
Depends on the format: pvp or pve.
In pvp if you are using a non-attack elite then you go sword.
If you are going to use an attack elite you will go hammer or axe.
Axe for spiking. Hammer for pressure.
In PvE IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!
I took 15 in sword with all axe skills and still completed the mission. That actually happend to WM Jang (or another WM warrior). He got Shock Axe, I think, and put points in Swordsmanship. We saw him Shocking everyone.
Related to the topic...
Why are Mesmer DW compared to Warrior DW?
Mesmer needs to expend 2~4 skillslots.
Mesmer has a much slower spike.
Mesmer has a much longer recharge.
In pvp if you are using a non-attack elite then you go sword.
If you are going to use an attack elite you will go hammer or axe.
Axe for spiking. Hammer for pressure.
In PvE IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!
I took 15 in sword with all axe skills and still completed the mission. That actually happend to WM Jang (or another WM warrior). He got Shock Axe, I think, and put points in Swordsmanship. We saw him Shocking everyone.
Related to the topic...
Why are Mesmer DW compared to Warrior DW?
Mesmer needs to expend 2~4 skillslots.
Mesmer has a much slower spike.
Mesmer has a much longer recharge.
Thom Bangalter
Mesmers also have to rely on energy to apply deep wound, warriors just have to hit the button when it lights up.
Also, Hammer is more spike-y than axe is.
Also, Hammer is more spike-y than axe is.
Nexus Icon
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Last I heard it was one skill to apply the deep wound, then one high damage skill to apply the spike...
Quote: Mesmer has a much slower spike. As has been pointed out earlier, if you use Shatter Delusions on Phantom Pain, the SD damage comes in after the deep wound, resulting in a spike and actually making the spike itself faster than a warrior spike.
Quote:
Not much point if the deep wound hasn't been removed in the meantime.
Most deep wounds last for longer than 15 seconds...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
Mesmers also have to rely on energy to apply deep wound...
So? Mesmers generally have more than twice as much energy as a warrior in the first place; and Newsflash! They also have great ways of quickly recuperating that energy.
Talk about yer non-issues...
Thom Bangalter
/sigh.
Unless running a caster spike, I'm sure as hell not taking a mesmer for a deep wound. That's retarded.
Nexus Icon
So you can't argue my point, so you resort to name-calling?
GG Thom...
Thom Bangalter
It's so obvious, I didn't feel the need to elaborate.
PP+shatter every 15 seconds for 15 energy, or eviscerate+executioner's OR sever+gash, or any kd+crushing, or dismember+anything else, for free. Not to mention the armor and DPS abilities warriors have. There's nothing to argue. I'll repeat: unless running a caster spike, you take a warrior for deep wound abilities, not a mesmer.
Nexus Icon
And I'LL repeat, energy + mes= not a problem.
A warrior's spike is not what I'd call free by any means; you still have to invest time to build the spike. In most cases, Frenzy too, which comparitively, gets rid of a quarter of a standard warrior's energy bar. Then if someone's running a hammer spiker, whoops, there goes another 5 energy. Without Glad's, that's half your energy gone. With Glad's, a third. And most warriors don't carry a means of quickly recovering energy. If you come back and say "But that's not an issue", then realise that you're saying the same thing about warrior that I'm saying about mesmer. Oh, and a mesmer doesn't magically lose the ability to cast other spells whilst waiting for Phantom Pain to cool down. They could (and should) be doing other cool stuff whilst waiting to initiate another spike. Like maybe draining the target's enrgy so they replenish their own...? A mesmer applying a deep wound is a very viable alternative to a warrior. I'm just trying to get people to realise that if they let someone else handle the deep wound, they could devote more time to unconditional damage or interrupts. And a warrior should be more than just "Frenzy > Deep Wound > Spike!". It's just sad when people limit themselves so much and by their actions on this forum, imply that that's what everybody else should be doing too. Think more about other classes and how you can interact with them to make everything smoother for the whole team. So it gets complicated and requires a high level of coordination... So what? Isn't that what striving to be the best is all about?
Eilsys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
And a warrior only needs one slot for an actual spike?
Last I heard it was one skill to apply the deep wound, then one high damage skill to apply the spike... The skill is called Eviscerate. Maybe you've seen it in PvP before; it's fairly popular. Why would you take a Mesmer for Deep Wound? If I take a Mesmer, I don't want half his bar devoted to doing what a Warrior can do anyway. There's way better things a Mesmer can do than that. For PvE, Triple Chop is my favorite elite. Builds up adrenaline nicely, and does something like +38 damage to everything at 14 Axe. Sword is good for utility; Sever/Gash/Final and the rest of your bar can be whatever stances and crap you want.
Nexus Icon
Oh for the love of Pete, please read the rest of the thread before commenting.
Me and Carth went over this in detail and discovered some very interesting things about deep wound, one of which was that the spike on warrior builds doesn't happen until the next attack after the deep wound. That means that Eviscerate itself does not constitute a spike, that's what Executioner's Strike is for. And 2 skills does not constitute half a skill bar...
Eilsys
Sorry, thought you had mentioned four skills when you only said three. My bad.
I did read the rest of the thread; you were arguing that Mesmers are better for Deep Wound since they can cause it in an AOE, and faster. And I was agreeing with Thom, Mesmers are far more valuable as shutdown. Rangers are better at spreading bleeding (Melandru's), but that doesn't mean Sever is bad on a W's bar. Sure, maybe in the off-chance that the OP PUGs with a Mesmer with Phantom Pain/Shatter/Epidemic he'll be outperformed, but overall that doesn't make Deep Wound a bad choice for a Warrior's bar.
Nexus Icon
If we're going right back to what the OP said, I'd say ignore deep wounds for PvE. Standard mobs die too quickly for it to be worthwhile, and level 24+ mobs or bosses have far more than 500 health, making deep wound subject to the law of diminishing returns.
Stick with DPS.
Hockster
Mending and Healing Breeze? This is why wamo's never get into groups. 1 pip of energy regen and you bring a 10 energy spell. Can you even kill anything in under 30 minutes with that build?
LightningHell
Well, at least we agree on the grounds that we don't care about deep wound in PvE.
Jetdoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Well, at least we agree on the grounds that we don't care about deep wound in PvE.
Unless you're a solo (without henchmen) fiend like me or are trying to get Master's completion, where every second counts...
Thom Bangalter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
And I'LL repeat, energy + mes= not a problem.
A warrior's spike is not what I'd call free by any means; you still have to invest time to build the spike. In most cases, Frenzy too, which comparitively, gets rid of a quarter of a standard warrior's energy bar. Then if someone's running a hammer spiker, whoops, there goes another 5 energy. Without Glad's, that's half your energy gone. With Glad's, a third. And most warriors don't carry a means of quickly recovering energy. If you come back and say "But that's not an issue", then realise that you're saying the same thing about warrior that I'm saying about mesmer. Oh, and a mesmer doesn't magically lose the ability to cast other spells whilst waiting for Phantom Pain to cool down. They could (and should) be doing other cool stuff whilst waiting to initiate another spike. Like maybe draining the target's enrgy so they replenish their own...? A mesmer applying a deep wound is a very viable alternative to a warrior. I'm just trying to get people to realise that if they let someone else handle the deep wound, they could devote more time to unconditional damage or interrupts. And a warrior should be more than just "Frenzy > Deep Wound > Spike!". It's just sad when people limit themselves so much and by their actions on this forum, imply that that's what everybody else should be doing too. Think more about other classes and how you can interact with them to make everything smoother for the whole team. So it gets complicated and requires a high level of coordination... So what? Isn't that what striving to be the best is all about? /sigh, again. I honestly can't believe this is open to debate. Warriors do deep wound better. I'm not saying mesmers can't do it, nor am I implying that warriors should only be doing frenzy-deep wound-spike, because warrior bars should be flexible in response to a situation, which is why you'll see anti-kite skills such as bull's strike and shock, interrupts such as distracting blow and other disruption through knockdowns, or self condition removal like plague touch. Also, a zealous weapon while under an IAS quickly replenishes your energy, alongside their two pips of regen. You're not utilizing your mesmer proplery by running pp+shatter+epidemic. It's a clunky expensive combination that ties up too much of a mesmers bar (3 skils) and pretty requires the other 4 skills be energy management to pull it off. If I would want to apply a deep wound like that, I'd take a paragon with go for the eyes+find their weakness. I'm glad you finally figured out how a spike work, gg. PP+shatter is useful in caster spike because it takes away a lot of the target's health. I've farmed quite a few champ points revolving around the skills so I'm not saying their bad. But If you're not running a caster spike, you need a warrior applying the deep wound, because it's less prone to be interrupted, diversioned, or simply being outpressured because by the time you get aoe deep wound set up, there's a good chance your mesmers will be dead. Although, I should note that the best class at applying deep wound are thumpers, those things are maniacs, they just have to wait for recharge on crushing.
twicky_kid
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Well, at least we agree on the grounds that we don't care about deep wound in PvE.
Deep wound is very valuable. Even dismember deals more dmg than any other non-elite attack skill
Name one skill that says deals +100 dmg for xx seconds target for receives 20% lower healing. I solo kill many monsters with just dismember>whirling axe>crit chop>whirling. Deep wound is the entire reason you take a war. If you aren't using then why are you there besides being a tank.
Thom Bangalter
I agree. Warriors without deep wounds are gimped.
Crom The Pale
This thread has driffted a wee bit off topic, but hey go with the flow I guess....
For mesmers to apply deep wound, yes they can do it fast and the energy cost is nothing to them, but if your using a war to spike then you have to wait till he has his adren attacks charged, by which time he could apply it anyway... Hence the comment that using a mesmer for a deep wound is for caster spikes, not in combo with a war spike. Yes it can be done but its not the most efficient way to do it. As for a war using deep wound at all, its for spikes and not for much else. If your just applying pressure with your war then deep wound is to easy a condition to remove, and its removal reverses the damage it causes. The only reason a pressure war would use deep wound is to cover bleeding or cripple or weakness. On topic... Axe is for spiking or high damage single hits, all though it can provide nice dps its not as reliable as sword dps. Sword is best for providing fast conditions and dps, but can deliver high damage spikes as long as conditions meet the req. ie Final Thrust. In the end which ever you use must compiment your secondary profession and your team build.
Feurin Longcastle
Nexus, no offense to you personally but you're just being stubborn. No one is saying mesmers are ineffectual. Far from it. However, they're inferior to warriors where deep wound is concerned. Dismember charges in 5 swings, 5 seconds under IAS. Even with no IAS it can be applied every 7 seconds. To argue that using 3 skill slots plus a few more just to manage the energy usage (which admittedly you will need) works out to half your bar for what a warrior can do with just 1 skill.
And twicky mentioned out my other point, deep wound is incredibly useful in PvE. There are sufficient targets that you can apply a new deep wound with dismember every time it charges. Weapon + 100 dmg is nothing to scoff at for a 5 adren non-elite. |
